Bret Hart's response to Flairs comments

[Lara Emily]

k don't know if this'll work lycos is giving me trouble but it's worth a shot.

Right click save as

http://members.lycos.co.uk/larissaemily/warriorfun.mp3

http://members.lycos.co.uk/larissaemily/morewarriorfun.mp3

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Just a quick thought by the way. All personal knowledge of HBK's aside (for the reason that some of you questioned Lance's honestly, despite his history with being honest.), a lot of you mentioned "XXX worker" wouldn't have spoke out against Vince for fear of being fired or punished. Isn't it possible, that Shawn could have gone a long with the screw job for those very same reasons? Granted he probably wouldn't have been fired, but who's to say he wouldn't have feared being punished?

[Corkscrewed]

Oly damn, Bret really DID tear Flair a new asshole... maybe two.

He makes some pretty damn good points. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Flair was worthless, but I can see his notes on Flair's character being valid.

[LK]

Originally posted by HeartBreakKid2k I just want to clear up something, I think Bret is an incredible worker. Top two workers ever, maybe even the best. Just because I disagree with him, doesn't mean I discredit him as a worker.

I would like to say that is how I feel about Bret as well.

[sadio8]

Very interesting to say the least if you guys get a chance you should get the past 2 wrestling observer newsletters just for some more background info and whatnot!

[The Outlaw]

Originally Posted by loopydate And this is a big reason why I loathe Creative Control clauses in contracts. When the wrestlers can choose who they do and don't want to job to on any given night, then that leaves the writers in a hell of a bind. This is why so many people hate Triple H, so why do people love Bret Hart for the same reason? You'll all be creaming yourselves if Vince does a screwjob on Trips if he doesn't do a proper job to, say, Chris Jericho.

Word. It's like basketball/baseball/football players wanting to know stuff going on behind closed doors, wanting a no trade clause, etc. IMO

They are property. They shouldn't have the right to decide who they lose to, when, or where. It's that simple.

[The Outlaw]

Wrestling wasn’t just a job for me, it was the only way of life I knew long before either Hogan or Flair laced up a pair of boots and took their first wrestling lesson to see what it was like.

We know it was more than a job from your constant bitching, but whats the latter all about?

The latter part is about how Bret was born into wrestling. He watched his father train wrestlers from the time he was born. You can say that the first thing he knew was wrestling maybe.

[Excellance of Execution]

Originally Posted by The Outlaw Word. It's like basketball/baseball/football players wanting to know stuff going on behind closed doors, wanting a no trade clause, etc. IMO They are property. They shouldn't have the right to decide who they lose to, when, or where. It's that simple.

There is a huge difference here. Bret had creative control for the last month of his contract. It's not like he had creative control his whole tenure in the WWF and refused to drop the title or lose all the time. The reason for this clause is so his employer (McMahon) wouldn't run his name into the ground as he left. Can you blame Bret, i can't. Your talking about his livlyhood. How he support's his family. Bret was as far from political as you can get. Shawn was good at that. Faking injuries so he wouldn't have to job (now there's a winner).

This issue doesn't even compare to other sport's. Bret wasn't using politics to get what he wanted, like sport's player's do when they get a coach fired or demand a bigger contract or to be traded. Tell me when has a pro athelete ever had to worry about the owner of the team dragging them through the mud before they went to another team? It never happened. Pro athelete's have multiple choices of where they can play and make million's of dollars, wrestler's (at that time) had two places where they could make a good living, and i don't blame Bret for not wanting his name to be made to look bad. As for you saying they are property, does that mean you or i are property of our places of employment? I don't think so. I don't know about you, but i have the choice to find another job if i want to my employer doesn't own me. On the same token, if you or i take a job where we have special bonuses or priveleges that other employee's don't is that wrong? Bret had creative control for the last month of his contract, and Vince allowed it. Than mean's Bret had a right to a finish that he saw fit and Vince should have followed through with it, whether he liked it or not. It sound's like Vince is more comparible to an athelete.

[Excellance of Execution]

Originally Posted by loopydate And this is a big reason why I loathe Creative Control clauses in contracts. When the wrestlers can choose who they do and don't want to job to on any given night, then that leaves the writers in a hell of a bind. This is why so many people hate Triple H, so why do people love Bret Hart for the same reason? You'll all be creaming yourselves if Vince does a screwjob on Trips if he doesn't do a proper job to, say, Chris Jericho.

There's a big difference between Bret and Triple H. Bret had creative control for the last month of his contract, so his name wouldn't be ruined before he left the company (which was Vince's choice). Triple H doesn't have creative control in his contract, his power is all political because of who he's married to. There's a big difference between creative control and politic's. All i need to say is look at Hogan during the 80's or the Clique during the mid 90's.

[PorkSoda]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon couldn't contain myself

Yeah, Tomallies do taste good

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Originally Posted by HeartBreakKid2k Just a quick thought by the way. All personal knowledge of HBK's aside (for the reason that some of you questioned Lance's honestly, despite his history with being honest.), a lot of you mentioned "XXX worker" wouldn't have spoke out against Vince for fear of being fired or punished. Isn't it possible, that Shawn could have gone a long with the screw job for those very same reasons? Granted he probably wouldn't have been fired, but who's to say he wouldn't have feared being punished?

Any comments?

[Lara Emily]

It's interesting that from what I gather from reading this week's Observer, Flair in his book lists off some guys he feels can be called great. HBK and HHH show up in ths list but Hart's name is only mentioned to say that there was no comparison between him and Micheals, in other words that HBK is leagues above Bret Hart. Which quite frankly is an assinine thing to say.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Originally Posted by Lara Emily It's interesting that from what I gather from reading this week's Observer, Flair in his book lists off some guys he feels can be called great. HBK and HHH show up in ths list but Hart's name is only mentioned to say that there was no comparison between him and Micheals, in other words that HBK is leagues above Bret Hart. Which quite frankly is an assinine thing to say.

....

Which is why Flair is an idiot. And over-rated.

[loopydate]

Originally Posted by Excellance of Execution There's a big difference between Bret and Triple H. Bret had creative control for the last month of his contract, so his name wouldn't be ruined before he left the company (which was Vince's choice). Triple H doesn't have creative control in his contract, his power is all political because of who he's married to. There's a big difference between creative control and politic's. All i need to say is look at Hogan during the 80's or the Clique during the mid 90's.

Who gives a shit if Vince ruined his name over the course of a month with the legacy he'd built up in ten+ years with the company? WCW would have just built it back up again. They'd gotten pretty good at it.

Whether it's written or not, it's using your position in the company to make demands that are unfair of your employer.

And you asked if you're the property of your employer? Yes. Yes, you are. If your employer is paying you to, say, write legal briefs for a living, but you decide that for whatever reason you don't want to write one particular legal brief, your employer has every right to take your job and give it to someone else.

Now, before you jump back with a "But Shawn Michaels--" argument, let me say again that I'm not condoning Michaels. Frankly, he should probably have gotten the same treatment that Bret got, because some of the shit he's pulled over the years has put WWF/E in awkward positions. The double standard is unfair.

But the actions of others don't excuse Bret Hart for not doing what was best for the company and dropping the gold on the show that people paid money to watch. Even if he didn't do that, if he'd been professional, swallowed his pride, and concentrated on establishing a legacy in WCW, rather than bitching about what Vince had done to the one he had in the WWF, I'd like him more.

The fact is, he didn't do either of those things and that's why I personally don't give a shit about Bret Hart anymore. Fantastic wrestler, for sure, but also the kind of person that I can't stand.

BTW, I think you probably could have stopped after one sentence. Your name is, after all "Excellance (sic) of Execution," which makes your view pretty clear on all this.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Originally Posted by loopydate BTW, I think you probably could have stopped after one sentence. Your name is, after all "Excellance (sic) of Execution," which makes your view pretty clear on all this.

Well, to be fair my name is "HeartBreakKid2k" but that doesn't mean that I think Shawn is free of blame, granted I think he gets more shit than he should for it, but not free of blame. So just to be fair we shouldn't really write off his point of view based soley off of his name.

[Batsu]

Disagree.

Bret used those last days and his last year in the WWF putting others over. I'll say that SS97 was the only exception. The reason why it was the exception was obvious... and anyway, the finish of this match was already determined. The match was already set to go. No one told Bret about anything, and you just knew he was going to job the belt before leaving for WCW, period. He -could- have done the easy thing and dropped the belt at the PPV, but as Bret said, there were other factors that led to his refusal to use that event as his goodbye. This is one time, only one time. Your argument is valid, but the way you put it makes him seem no better than Hulk Hogan, whose backstage politics have done more to hurt wrestling than to help it. Creative control clauses are bullshit, but Bret could have done a lot worse than what he had done in his last days. Fact is, that he didn't. He routinely did things he didn't really like (the Nation vs Foundation feud, the "snapping" promo, which is a personal favorite). I think Bret reserved the right (that was granted to him) not to do something he had what seems like moral objection to doing. It may seem frivolous on the surface, but who really wants to deal with a less-than-professional, less than cooperative worker that got by for all the wrong reasons?

Got a little long-winded there.

In short, the facts are WWE gave Bret power he didn't even really use, the night's finish was determined, and they reneged on it without informing everyone. Vince and the screwjob architects continue to bring it up. Canadian fans never let WWE forget. Bret actually brings it up less than anyone else. They just keep taking it to him and he has to respond.

The difference between Bret and HHH, Hogan, and the like is that Bret was willing to put over people, no matter how crappy (think of when Bret ruled in WWE for example). He wasn't exactly a model citizen at times, but he certainly wasn't on Warrior-levels of delusion, or bought his own hype as much as say Hogan was. In fact, when it comes down to it, I can't really even blame HHH for everything that's pushed him to the top. It's obviously, there's other links in the chain causing the trouble, because he certainly can't have creative control on the levels of Hogan and other problem cases. What went on with HHH is probably the same thing that was going on with HBK (who was a beneficiary of Hogan's exit from WWE as it was).

[loopydate]

Originally Posted by HeartBreakKid2k Well, to be fair my name is "HeartBreakKid2k" but that doesn't mean that I think Shawn is free of blame, granted I think he gets more shit than he should for it, but not free of blame. So just to be fair we shouldn't really write off his point of view based soley off of his name.

Dick Response: But at least you spelled your guy's gimmick right.

Honest Response: That's a good point. I shouldn't have been dismissive just because of the name. I do apologize for bringing that up.

My opinion stands, though. It doesn't matter how good he'd been for the company in the months leading up to November 1997. The saying is "You're only as good as your last match." In his last WWF PPV appearance, he didn't do the right thing (granted, neither did anyone else), and that's going to be his lasting legacy in my mind.

[Lara Emily]

Loopy have you ever talked to Bret Hart? I have, the guy is pure class. I met him while he was here in Ottawa to watch the Memorial Cup tournament in May 1999, he was up in what passes as a private box at The Civic Centre and when I alongside just one other kid inquired about when he might come down the guard told us somethinglike not till intermission. Somehow though word got up to him (might have been the same security guard of all I know) that the two of us were there and he came down right away, to meet us. I was the real benifactor of this has the other kids didn't hang around long, I did and got the most wonderful privilege of my life, a 10 minute chat with my favorite wrestler of all time, a true Canadian icon. The man took time out in the middle of a game he was watching to come down and meet just two of us. He then put time aside even more time to personally talk to me alone and then after the game he was fully iwlling to give me even more time and pose for a picture, all this was stuff he didn't have to do, especially since he wasn't even on offical WCW business or anything, he was on his own time. Hell even later in the tournament he sat in with the rest of the crowd, like an averge spectator That's the type of person Bret Hart is.

[Lara Emily]

Originally Posted by loopydate Dick Response: But at least you spelled your guy's gimmick right. Honest Response: That's a good point. I shouldn't have been dismissive just because of the name. I do apologize for bringing that up. My opinion stands, though. It doesn't matter how good he'd been for the company in the months leading up to November 1997. The saying is "You're only as good as your last match." In his last WWF PPV appearance, he didn't do the right thing (granted, neither did anyone else), and that's going to be his lasting legacy in my mind.

So if that's his lasting legacy in your mind. Who is it really that needs to get over Montreal?

[Excellance of Execution]

Originally Posted by loopydate Who gives a shit if Vince ruined his name over the course of a month with the legacy he'd built up in ten+ years with the company? WCW would have just built it back up again. They'd gotten pretty good at it. Maybe WCW could have built his name back up, but c'mon it's WCW your talking about. Whether it's written or not, it's using your position in the company to make demands that are unfair of your employer. And you asked if you're the property of your employer? Yes. Yes, you are. If your employer is paying you to, say, write legal briefs for a living, but you decide that for whatever reason you don't want to write one particular legal brief, your employer has every right to take your job and give it to someone else. Maybe i shouldn't have compared it to a normal job, but the fact of the matter is, is that he had in his contract, that he had creative control over the last month of his contract. If he was so inclined Bret probably could have sued for breach of contract. Of course he didn't because that's the type of person he is. Now, before you jump back with a "But Shawn Michaels--" argument, let me say again that I'm not condoning Michaels. Frankly, he should probably have gotten the same treatment that Bret got, because some of the shit he's pulled over the years has put WWF/E in awkward positions. The double standard is unfair. But the actions of others don't excuse Bret Hart for not doing what was best for the company and dropping the gold on the show that people paid money to watch. Even if he didn't do that, if he'd been professional, swallowed his pride, and concentrated on establishing a legacy in WCW, rather than bitching about what Vince had done to the one he had in the WWF, I'd like him more. Best for the company, be for real. If i remember correctly, wasn't he already letting Vince out of a LIFETIME contract? Walking away from that because Vince asked him to is about as professional as you can get. The fact is, he didn't do either of those things and that's why I personally don't give a shit about Bret Hart anymore. Fantastic wrestler, for sure, but also the kind of person that I can't stand. BTW, I think you probably could have stopped after one sentence. Your name is, after all "Excellance (sic) of Execution," which makes your view pretty clear on all this.

My views aren't skewed because i like Bret Hart. I've never placed the blame on anyone but Vince. Not even Shawn, even though he's a piece of shit. I beleive Shawn did what he was asked, and i'm sure he didn't complain, seeing he was the one who benefitted the most.

[The Outlaw]

Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. .... Which is why Flair is an idiot. And over-rated.

So because Flair said those things he is over-rated.

You, sir, are an idiot.

Also, "Excellance of Execution", yes, I am pretty much the property of my boss. I do what they tell me to do, when they tell me, and how they tell me. This results in me getting paid for doing said task.

Pretty simple.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Originally Posted by The Outlaw So because Flair said those things he is over-rated. You, sir, are an idiot. Also, "Excellance of Execution", yes, I am pretty much the property of my boss. I do what they tell me to do, when they tell me, and how they tell me. This results in me getting paid for doing said task. Pretty simple.

...

Nooo. The first statement being "which is why flair is an idiot" referred to his obviously senile views on the Hitman and his pure ass kissing of guys like HHH.
I then added "and over-rated" purely for entertainment purposes, and due mainly to my own opinion of him, which was not influenced by what Flair wrote down in his bitter book.

So you sir, for assuming to comprehend my post, when in fact not comprehending my post, are the idiot.

Thank you and goodnight.

[CosaNostra]

That was a very powerful article by Bret Hart; so right in so many ways.

I remember reading many, many of PWI's wrestling results over the 80's and early 90's. When Ric Flair didn't win he "lost by DQ"; which just goes to show how great he was putting people over.

Now from being witness to his kiss ass book, all thats left is an old man straining to keep a job Thats pretty fucking pathetic.

[The Mackem]

Man I've just spent the best time of a few hours reading Bret Hart's site. Good read

[KingofOldSchool]

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg Wow KingofOldSchool you are a big fat jizzstain of retarded.

And that is coming from an ugly little bastard.


I'm so hurt...

Wait no I'm not.

[The CyNick]

Honestly, anyone who is questioning Bret as a company person is a moron (no offence, but its true).

Bret Hart was a main eventer and he went out of his way to make new stars, HBK never made a star, Hulk Hogan never has, Steve Austin hasn't, and of course HHH has yet to do this. So out of top guys, Bret did far more good for the WWE than any of those guys. Some of those guys may have drawn more money, but as a professional Bret's head is way above water, and those guys are drowning.

And remember guys, if your mad about Bret not jobbing the Title. Just remember, Flair never jobbed his World Title right before he came to WWF in 91 and Benoit didn't job his Title right before he came to WWE.