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Old 08-17-2010, 01:56 AM   #1
Tom Guycott
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The death of logic
Long time visitor, first time poster. Yah, that was a cheesy, lame way to make my first post, but true nonetheless. I've visited TPWW since back in the day where most folks were limited to dialing into AOL for teh internets.
Now that that boring "nothing" about me is out of the way...

So, something that i've noticed for a long time in the world of wrestling is the death of logic; that is to say things that, by and large, ultimately make no sense even in the whole universal realm of what we're supposed to believe in wrestling, and is (to me at least) even more of a downer than the supposed death of kayfabe. A major example of what I mean is the widespread backlash of SS, where Cena takes a planting headfirst into a concrete floor and 30 seconds later gets his hand raised and is not only standing and conscious, but no selling what just happened. That in and of itself is pretty bad, but considering that just a couple matches sooner, Sheamus gets KILLED taking an RKO on a table that doesn't break, and needs trainers to help him to the back, really makes that spot seem unbelieveable.

That's a major thing, but even minor detracting things have gone by for years, such as the "hook the leg/kick out" (once upon a time, hooking the leg was a preventative measure FROM kicking out that "veterains" used, or was used after a finisher to "make sure" now it's just a basic pin, and it never works) and I was wondering what others may have thought of things like this, or other things that they may have noticed.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:05 AM   #2
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I sort of agree with you in some aspects, but Cena's act is nothing new. He's not nearly as bad as Hulk Hogan was in the lack of selling department.....well, he is NEARLY as bad, but regardless, it's not a new concept.

I think some characters are just meant to have that special intangible 'something' about them that nobody else has. We're not meant to understand it, but we're meant to accept it.

It's pretty fucking stupid though, I'll give you that.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:10 AM   #3
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Things just progress too. Once hooking the leg became commonplace, there was no going back. The same goes for false finishes, and kicking out of finishers. You can make the argument that it was better back then, but there is no going back now.
They just need to preserve and innovate.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:17 AM   #4
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Also, heels are always "hurt" way more by big moves than faces are.

When a "monster" character (Batista) is a face, he is near unstoppable and runs over everybody. When he's a heel, he'll suddenly be kicked around a whole lot easier.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:36 AM   #5
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If there were blood, that might help sell certain spots better. Cena and the concrete is just one example of that.
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:21 AM   #6
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I'm not sure. Color might have made the spot look cooler, but it would have made it MORE rediculous that something that devestating could be completely written off in moments.

Cena's an easy target (proven again on RAW, where Bizzaro Cena laid him out on the floor for a countout, and he was prone for a 9 count without so much as a tease of "is he gonna make it?", then snaps up at the 9 and 1/2 mark to instantly beat the count.) He's not the only one that does this type of thing, he's just the most blatant.

I understand the progression thing. Hell, chairshots used to be an exclamation point of "they're not getting up", and now, everyone gets hit with a chair, sledgehammer, barbed wire bat, Janice, or HEAD, and it's shrugged off. My issue with it is I wish there were more consistancy.
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
Also, heels are always "hurt" way more by big moves than faces are.

When a "monster" character (Batista) is a face, he is near unstoppable and runs over everybody. When he's a heel, he'll suddenly be kicked around a whole lot easier.
Not only hurt, but they become cowardly once they turn heel.

I mean, come on, look at Hogan. He was a guy that would never give up, never quit, beat up like 5000 guys in the ring, but once he became heel he started begging for forgiveness in the ring. Which was something even a 10year old me couldn't understand.

It's like John Cena would go heel now and stop being the superman that he is.

Apparently, associating with bad guys causes a lack of strength and shit.
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:56 AM   #8
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What makes it even worse are larger matches that happen, like MITB for example. Someone is tossed from the ring and proceeds to lay on the ground for 5+ minutes, just from being tossed out of the damn ring, which makes your earlier point about milking the count-out even more glaringly obvious. Also kind of points out that it's an all pre-set spot fest, because everyone not involved is conveniently out of the way.
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixx View Post
Not only hurt, but they become cowardly once they turn heel.

I mean, come on, look at Hogan. He was a guy that would never give up, never quit, beat up like 5000 guys in the ring, but once he became heel he started begging for forgiveness in the ring. Which was something even a 10year old me couldn't understand.

It's like John Cena would go heel now and stop being the superman that he is.

Apparently, associating with bad guys causes a lack of strength and shit.
Do heels ever do the "honest" thing? No. So in these instances, it's only fair to assume that it's a clever ruse to get the ref to step in and make the babyface wait to deal damage until after they've baited him/her in, only to get a cheap shot in, thus meaning that the beg-off by a heel should send up a red flag to a babyface, logically speaking, but either doesn't or the ruse works and the ref stops the face in their tracks as they are about to attack. It's quite possible that besides verbality, the beg-off maneuever in professional wrestling is the most insincere move/tactic ever devised by heel wrestlers.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:05 AM   #10
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Cmon. There's been next to no logic in wrestling forever.

The ref seems to hear with his eyes and doesn't feel the impact of someone else in the ring. He will also allow a heel team to "tag" in when he hears the tag (usually by the guy coming in clapping his own hands) but won't let the faces switch if he doesn't see the tag.

Wrestlers wait a week to get revenge or react to a situation and they seemingly never have the chance to watch the show back to see if something underhand has gone on.

And so on.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
I sort of agree with you in some aspects, but Cena's act is nothing new. He's not nearly as bad as Hulk Hogan was in the lack of selling department.....well, he is NEARLY as bad, but regardless, it's not a new concept.

I think some characters are just meant to have that special intangible 'something' about them that nobody else has. We're not meant to understand it, but we're meant to accept it.

It's pretty fucking stupid though, I'll give you that.
On the other hand, Hogan wasn't doing it after a major promotion pulled back the curtain.

Not that I don't get the "something," but still, Hulking up in 2010 is a little different from Hulking up in 1985.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:57 AM   #12
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Hulking up was NEVER logical, though.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:27 AM   #13
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:47 AM   #14
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Hulking up was NEVER logical, though.
Since when was WWE "logical"?
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:51 AM   #15
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I'm speaking with relevance to the thread, you fuck.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:52 AM   #16
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I'm speaking with relevance to the thread, you fuck.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:56 AM   #17
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You better check yourself before you wreck yourself, Gerard.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:58 AM   #18
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You better check yourself before you wreck yourself, Gerard.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:05 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
Hulking up was NEVER logical, though.
Depends on what one defines as "logical." One suspends disbelief for entertainment, be it the notion that aliens exist or that a bald guy with an orange tan can get a second wind and shrug off blow after blow. Within the "Hulkamania" era, it was part of the set of rules one accepted. Ergo, logical with respect to the product.

It's not "logical" that men can change their faces (different actors) with nobody noticing, or that guys can carry large firearms under their coats without a noticeable bulge. Not logical with respect to the real world at least, but logical with respect to the confines of the scripts, the fantasy one assumes when watching television or movies.

Hulking up worked in the 80s. In the 90s, specifically the late 90s, they seriously changed the game. It changed the "logic," in effect. Cena's post-Attitude Era, where the change really started. It's harder to put toothpaste back in the tube than it is to squeeze it out.

So yeah, Hulking up was logical. Logical within the convention of the product. It's really not so much these days.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:08 PM   #20
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That's fair, but I still didn't like Hulk Hogan as a kid because of his hulking up.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:08 PM   #21
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I preferred the Ultimate Warrior just shaking the ropes for power, like a normal person would do.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:13 PM   #22
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So Cena can take a DDT to concrete and still beat two men, but at Fatal-Four-Way a quite 30 second beatdown by seven men put him down for the three count.

Fucking PG-kiddiepleasing-WWE! :foc:
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:48 PM   #23
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I dont think its asking too much for Cena to sell a little, even just before he gets the momentum again. The jumping in at the 9 count was just fucking stupid, if he'd started crawling towards the ring at the 7 or 8 count it wouldnt have looked so bad.
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