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Old 09-13-2010, 02:14 PM   #1
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Can you hate a heel that cleanly wins?


God, Hogan was in his mid 40s at this time and looked amazing (plus one of the greatest entrances of all time). One of the reasons you could hate the NWO was because they almost always cheated to win. Alberto Del Rio, Cody Rhodes, Drew McIntyre, and up until recently Dolph Ziggler attack people from behind and take shortcuts in the match, but they usually win off of there finisher. My question is if a heel cleanly wins a majority of the time, can you really hate them?
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:25 PM   #2
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:26 PM   #3
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I don't care if you loved them or hated them, WCW knew how too get that "Big Fight Feel" into their main events.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaskatchewanChamp View Post
I don't care if you loved them or hated them, WCW knew how too get that "Big Fight Feel" into their main events.
Except that the big fights we're always big disappointments in the end. All the hype in the world can't help you if the match itself sucks. WCW was supposedly the better company at technical wrestling. You wouldn't be able to tell that by looking at their main event matches.

That and it cost them 100k every time Michael Buffer showed up.
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
Except that the big fights we're always big disappointments in the end. All the hype in the world can't help you if the match itself sucks. WCW was supposedly the better company at technical wrestling. You wouldn't be able to tell that by looking at their main event matches.

That and it cost them 100k every time Michael Buffer showed up.
And the hype wasnt bad is was mainly the people backstage calling the shots and putting people with talent in the lower-mid card and keeping the same people on top and they couldnt go anywhere
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:16 PM   #6
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Depends on the gimmick.

Mr Perfect for instance, did everything, well. Perfectly. So he'd hit a move and then be smug as fuck about it after. You can still get that heat and be amazing at the same time, providing your reactions are enough to warrent a response.

Kurt Angle as a heel managed to pull that off quite well also
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:32 PM   #7
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It's pretty much a "Cena effect". A heel can win clean and it's gonna make the fans pissed and think "Is there anyone who can beat this guy!!". Poof you get the one guy that beats him, gives him a nice rub for doing it, and sets up a feud at the same time.
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perry Saturn View Post
And the hype wasnt bad is was mainly the people backstage calling the shots and putting people with talent in the lower-mid card and keeping the same people on top and they couldnt go anywhere
Couldnt have said it better myself. The WCW matches between Hogan vs Sting, Hogan vs Flair, Hogan vs Macho Man, were good but the endings were "tainted" All these matches have one other thing in common, I wanna say that Piper beat Hogan 3 or 4 times durring 96-97 in matches for the belt but he was never the offical champion
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Youell View Post
Depends on the gimmick.

Mr Perfect for instance, did everything, well. Perfectly. So he'd hit a move and then be smug as fuck about it after. You can still get that heat and be amazing at the same time, providing your reactions are enough to warrent a response.

Kurt Angle as a heel managed to pull that off quite well also
I think it was the constant changing of Angle being a face and a heel that helped him out in that department. Also being the Olympic Gold Medalist makes it more believable that he would win so many matches as a heel.

I remember Triple H winning clean many times as a heel, and I really couldn't stand him during the Evolution era.
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:47 PM   #10
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Heels winning clean could make people hate them even more. It contributes to the invincible bully/ evil empire feel.
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:30 PM   #11
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I remember when Edge and Christian kept getting DQ'd to keep the tag belts, it got them a ton of heat. Heels winning w/ dusty finish is tried and trusted to get hate, why have heels go over clean?
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:02 PM   #12
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I rarely hate any heels as it is. But I do admire heels who give a great fight, Sheamus at WM26 or Angle during most of his anti-Eddie Guerrero angle (see what I did there?) and to an extent Alberto del Rio as well.
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:12 PM   #13
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Triple H during his run as the initial World Heavyweight Champion on RAW is a prime example of a heel who wins clean and you want to fucking choke with an iron chain.

Look at his match against Booker T at WrestleMania XIX. It's arguable that Ric Flair cost Booker the match (in kayfabe), but the end still feels very much like a "clean win" for Triple H and it made people hate him with a passion. Triple H also took clean victories over the likes of Rob Van Dam and Kane in order to get himself more over as the most dominant heel on RAW, and it fucking worked.

I think the thing to be aware of is crossing the line between real heat and X-Pac heat.
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:16 PM   #14
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X-Pac heat is real heat.
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:28 PM   #15
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I'll just leave this here
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
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YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Also, if a heel does other heel actions, yes you can hate them...
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:08 PM   #17
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I do think we need more clean heel wins besides squash matches. Not a lot mind you, but one a week pending on the situation.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Triple H during his run as the initial World Heavyweight Champion on RAW is a prime example of a heel who wins clean and you want to fucking choke with an iron chain.

Look at his match against Booker T at WrestleMania XIX. It's arguable that Ric Flair cost Booker the match (in kayfabe), but the end still feels very much like a "clean win" for Triple H and it made people hate him with a passion. Triple H also took clean victories over the likes of Rob Van Dam and Kane in order to get himself more over as the most dominant heel on RAW, and it fucking worked.

I think the thing to be aware of is crossing the line between real heat and X-Pac heat.
And then that whole unstoppable Triple H thing ended with the creation of Batista, who proved to be one of their biggest attractions over the next several years. So it all worked out for the WWE until Batista decided to leave. Thus the payoff of Haitch's years of dominance is gone.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:23 PM   #19
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Heels going over faces with clean wins would only help garner a hotter reaction from the crowd. Can you imagine how loud the audience would boo Sheamus if he held clean wins over Orton and Cena, the company's top two faces.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
And then that whole unstoppable Triple H thing ended with the creation of Batista, who proved to be one of their biggest attractions over the next several years. So it all worked out for the WWE until Batista decided to leave. Thus the payoff of Haitch's years of dominance is gone.
But it panned out nonetheless and put Batista over instantly. They should be doing this with more main event heels. The rub an up and comer would get is worth it.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:16 PM   #21
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If a clean win comes from a douche, then yes.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:19 PM   #22
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No, to me, it would be a rare surprise.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:46 PM   #23
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No, to me, it would be a rare surprise.
That's partly due to the lame duck booking heels have been recieving lately. Five years ago, Triple H could pretty much go over anybody in the company clean and it was an easy buy.

These days, every "top" heel is booked exactly the same; chickenshit cowards who weasel their ways to victory or find escape routes to keeping the title, like Sheamus and even Orton back in 2008.
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