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Old 03-01-2011, 07:03 PM   #1
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WWE needs a face faction
Why don't we get face faction's anymore??? im so sick of gang attack beat downs like the Corre Vs Big Show or Orton/Cena vs Nexus.
John Morrison or a face version of Dolph Ziggler could start a faction.
The results are 10 (or 8) guys have ready made feuds with each other, they can mix and match wrestling each other in singles and tag matches for months, it stays fresh and 10 (or 8) guys have a better chance of getting over. What dya think?
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:18 PM   #2
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Nah, pretty bored of factions tbh.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:19 PM   #3
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I tihnk the last face faction was "The Union"
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:23 PM   #4
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Here's a fun little game, name one uber successful face stable that didn't first start off as a heels.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:25 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
I'm pretty sure the point she was making was that most successful stables started out as heel factions.
ABT supplemented that with the point that the very notion of a stable/faction implies semi-heel behavior. It's gang mentality and usually serves to give wrestlers an edge by having a crew.

So what is really the problem with those points?
I agree with both, tbh.

If it's so untrue, I'd like to see a list of notable stables that started out as faces. Citing that nWo and DX were huge face factions is irrelevant. A total red herring.
They started out as heel groups and functioned as such for some time. Just because they got super popular and sold merch, doesn't change that. That's because they were cool heels. That's like saying Stone Cold and The Rock didn't get over as heels because they ended up turning face in the same gimmick and selling lots of shirts. Has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

They were heels when they started. Fact not opinion. And I don't know why singles careers got dragged into the pot. But, I'm still drawing a blank on stables that started out as face factions. I'm sure there have to be a few, but I certainly can't think of any very successful ones at the moment.
I didn't dispute that they started out as heels. The only point I made was that they made money as faces, which is all that mattered. Making whether they start as heels or not redundant. If the story had called for them to start out as faces, they'd have been equally as successful. The success is down to the timing, the writing and most importantly, the performers. The notion that being heel is some kind of pre-requisite for success on other levels is what the discussion turned into. Which, as you pointed out, is also redundant.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:34 PM   #6
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It's hard to put people in a faction for a reason that doesn't make them look a little cowardly and heelish.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:35 PM   #7
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The only 'uber' successful factions are DX, nWo and maybe the Horseman. nWo were cheered as faces from day 1. Most of DX's success came with them as faces, both made a shit load of cash. Which is all that really matters.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
The only 'uber' successful factions are DX, nWo and maybe the Horseman. nWo were cheered as faces from day 1. Most of DX's success came with them as faces, both made a shit load of cash. Which is all that really matters.
I could see Miz and some dudes using it as a vehicle to turn face and make shitloads of cash.

As long as they get an awesome entrance.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:43 PM   #9
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Hogan definitely was not being cheered at Bash at the Beach 96. Also, when DX was just Michaels, Helmsley, Chyna, and Rude, they were being booed as well. That was always my favorite DX, though.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:47 PM   #10
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the nWo were not faces from day one, they had a following sure but they were not faces look at Bash at the Beach Hogan,Hall and Nash had garbage being thrown at them.

DX success as a face stable came from 6 months of build as cool heels. NAO were built as cool heels as well and already well established when they joined DX

The 3 most successful face stables all started as heels, which is my point, just starting a stable off as Faces rarely works
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:48 PM   #11
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lol not literally day one, like week 3 or something. As soon as they got the shirt, started cutting promos and generally being the 'coolest' guys on Nitro.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:49 PM   #12
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I'm not saying they were faces. I'm saying they were getting face reactions and selling (top-line) face amounts of merchandise.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:57 PM   #13
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The nWo guys just got pops when they made their entrances and cut their promos because they were "cool heels" but still, the fans booed them during matches and cheered for the WCW guys to win.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:59 PM   #14
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Exactly
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BollywoodSingh View Post
The nWo guys just got pops when they made their entrances and cut their promos because they were "cool heels" but still, the fans booed them during matches and cheered for the WCW guys to win.
Because most of them were very good at their jobs. The initial reaction to them was still 'SHIT NWO YEAAAHHHH'.

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Exactly
Exactly what? You haven't made any variety of point here.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:02 PM   #16
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A year ago people were bitching that there are no factions. You get them, and then want more.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:13 PM   #17
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I said the most successful face stables all started off as heel, thus were able to develop that cool heel feel which then got them over as faces later on.

Hell this applies to fucking single stars too.

The Rock got his first break as a heel
Steve Austin started getting over as a heel
Triple H Heel
Undertaker heel
even John Cena only really started getting over as heel.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Emily View Post
I said the most successful face stables all started off as heel, thus were able to develop that cool heel feel which then got them over as faces later on.

Hell this applies to fucking single stars too.

The Rock got his first break as a heel
Steve Austin started getting over as a heel
Triple H Heel
Undertaker heel
even John Cena only really started getting over as heel.
2 stables. 'Starting out heel' is clearly not a pre-requisite for success.

And of course it doesn't apply to singles guys. Rock didn't start as a heel in WWE. Ditto Cena. Ditto Orton. Ditto HBK. Ditto Warrior. Ditto Edge. And so on and so on.

Still not seeing any kind of point here.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
2 stables. 'Starting out heel' is clearly not a pre-requisite for success.

And of course it doesn't apply to singles guys. Rock didn't start as a heel in WWE. Ditto Cena. Ditto Orton. Ditto HBK. Ditto Warrior. Ditto Edge. And so on and so on.

Still not seeing any kind of point here.
Rock had people chanting "DIE ROCKY DIE" as a face. People hated him and not in the way they should. He got over as a heel.

Cena was heel when his rapper gimmick got him over. Edge was "put over the top" with the Rated R Superstar heel gimmick. HBK became popular as The Heartbreak Kid - a heel gimmick.

I'll give you Warrior.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:06 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
2 stables. 'Starting out heel' is clearly not a pre-requisite for success.

And of course it doesn't apply to singles guys. Rock didn't start as a heel in WWE. Ditto Cena. Ditto Orton. Ditto HBK. Ditto Warrior. Ditto Edge. And so on and so on.

Still not seeing any kind of point here.
Did you read what I said? Rock was a fucking joke in his inital face run his big break came as a cool heel. Orton was low midcard until he turned heel, Cena was low mid card until he turned heel, Edge was heel very shortly after he debuted and his first major run as a main evener was as a heel.

I was just pointing out that for a lot of guys being heel was where they really started to get over.

As for stables there have been two face stables in the past hmm 15 years or so The Union which was created directly from a heel table and the Filthy Animals
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:08 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Emily View Post
I said the most successful face stables all started off as heel, thus were able to develop that cool heel feel which then got them over as faces later on.

Hell this applies to fucking single stars too.

The Rock got his first break as a heel
Steve Austin started getting over as a heel
Triple H Heel
Undertaker heel
even John Cena only really started getting over as heel.
This is true. Most great faces, always starts getting over as a heel first...

...Shawn Michaels, Razor Ramon, Diesel, Sid, Orton, Kane...

...alot of 'em.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:31 PM   #22
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Are you guys trying to say that The Union wasn't successful?
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:36 PM   #23
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Yes

Though I'd like to note that even the Union was a spin off of a heel stable 3/4 of Union members came directly from The Corporation
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:42 PM   #24
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:44 PM   #25
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:48 PM   #26
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I wonder if Legacy could work as faces?.....if they re-united to take on Nexus?

Orton is pretty over with the fans, and it probably wouldn't take much to convert Rhodes and Dibiase....especially if they are battling Nexus. Rhodes and Dibiase never really took off after leaving Legacy from what I understand (I haven't watched much wrestling over this past year).

Re-uniting Rhodes and Dibase might be the best thing for both men.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:49 PM   #27
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Nah Cody's got his own thing going quite well on Smackdown.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:53 PM   #28
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Is it really going "quite well?" Maybe it's just me but I thought Rhodes and Dibiase were far more over as members of Legacy. Both characters seem to have regressed quite a bit upon leaving.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:16 PM   #29
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Cody Rhodes is more over now than he has ever been.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:21 PM   #30
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Oh ok. I haven't watched Wrestling much and so I didn't know. I'm a little surprised that Rhodes has experienced more success than Dibiase. It seems like the WWE has really shit the bed with Teddy.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:28 PM   #31
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I have to ask...

If you have no idea what's going on with wrestling, why are you even here?
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:51 PM   #32
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Yeah, that's all common knowledge but I took her saying 'got her break' as in 'started out' on TV/WWE debut since her examples are all different successes on different levels (example Triple H was way more over as a face than as a posh heel before going heel again/title push, Austin's real 'overness' came as a face from March '97, Cena was getting cheered for some time before they switched him face for his 'breakout' etc) I don't think even Lara Emily knows what point she is trying to make here.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:11 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by CSL View Post
Yeah, that's all common knowledge but I took her saying 'got her break' as in 'started out' on TV/WWE debut since her examples are all different successes on different levels (example Triple H was way more over as a face than as a posh heel before going heel again/title push, Austin's real 'overness' came as a face from March '97, Cena was getting cheered for some time before they switched him face for his 'breakout' etc) I don't think even Lara Emily knows what point she is trying to make here.
HHH got over in DX as a heel (and yes he was booed), Austin won KOTR and gave birth to Austin 3:16 as a heel, when I said got their break I mean just that the moment they started truly getting over.

BTW with Cena you are highlting my exact point, one of the best ways to eventually become a massively over face is to break into the main event scene as a cool heel.

Are you purposely being an idiot or something?

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Well, have you considered that maybe that's because by the time one gets to the top, they've been around a few years and they've seen a few gimmick or character changes?
That's the business. Especially with up and comers in the midcard. So you can look back on any rising career and pull out that they were once a heel.
No no the argument isn't that faces were at some point heels it's that a lot of the major faces got to be major faces because of how over they got as heels right before they turned face.

The list includes: Rock, Austin, HHH, HBK, Randy Orton, John Cena, Batista, Razor Ramon, Diesel, Ric Flair and the list goes on.

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I'm pretty sure the point she was making was that most successful stables started out as heel factions.
ABT supplemented that with the point that the very notion of a stable/faction implies semi-heel behavior. It's gang mentality and usually serves to give wrestlers an edge by having a crew.

So what is really the problem with those points?
I agree with both, tbh.

If it's so untrue, I'd like to see a list of notable stables that started out as faces. Citing that nWo and DX were huge face factions is irrelevant. A total red herring.
They started out as heel groups and functioned as such for some time. Just because they got super popular and sold merch, doesn't change that. That's because they were cool heels. That's like saying Stone Cold and The Rock didn't get over as heels because they ended up turning face in the same gimmick and selling lots of shirts. Has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

They were heels when they started. Fact not opinion. And I don't know why singles careers got dragged into the pot. But, I'm still drawing a blank on stables that started out as face factions. I'm sure there have to be a few, but I certainly can't think of any very successful ones at the moment.
Yeah I shouldn't have brought up singles, I was just making an observation that much like stables most of the major success stories of modern wrestling all got their big break as heels and all started getting over as heels.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:28 AM   #34
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Did you read what I said? Rock was a fucking joke in his inital face run his big break came as a cool heel. Orton was low midcard until he turned heel, Cena was low mid card until he turned heel, Edge was heel very shortly after he debuted and his first major run as a main evener was as a heel.

I was just pointing out that for a lot of guys being heel was where they really started to get over.

As for stables there have been two face stables in the past hmm 15 years or so The Union which was created directly from a heel table and the Filthy Animals
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HHH got over in DX as a heel (and yes he was booed), Austin won KOTR and gave birth to Austin 3:16 as a heel, when I said got their break I mean just that the moment they started truly getting over.

BTW with Cena you are highlting my exact point, one of the best ways to eventually become a massively over face is to break into the main event scene as a cool heel.

Are you purposely being an idiot or something?
You ask me if I'm purposely being an idiot two sentences after explaining yourself, so you clearly realize that you weren't being very clear with what you were on about. So are you purposely being a bit of a twat or ?

And I still can't believe you are still banging on about the singles guys. Have you read anything I've posted on this 2nd page? My god.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:42 AM   #35
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You ask me if I'm purposely being an idiot two sentences after explaining yourself, so you clearly realize that you weren't being very clear with what you were on about. So are you purposely being a bit of a twat or ?

And I still can't believe you are still banging on about the singles guys. Have you read anything I've posted on this 2nd page? My god.
Dude you're the one who misinterpreted what I meant by big break. I didn't explain myself I reiterated myself in response to our stupid assumption that some how big break = debut, I purposely stated big break because I knew guys such as the Rock actually debuted as faces.You're the only one who read it as debut.

I did read what you said on page 2 means shit, massively over faces who gpt over big time by soley being a face are rare and usually get that by way of the monster push IE: Goldberg Hogan, Warrior

I never claimed all Big faces went the get over as a heel first route I just pointed out that history reflects that a lot (maybe even most) of them did. There's a reason for that too, major success stories are performers who the fans chose, who the fans wanted to like, it's much easier to start off being hated and get people to like you by just doing your thing, then to be forced into a babyface role and basically demand people like you (IE Rocky Maivia). To be frank it was an observation I shouldn't have made as it derailed the thread clearly. End of story is no major Face faction in recent history has been massively successful without starting off as heels, if you want to argue against that you are arguing against reality.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:55 PM   #36
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And it doesn't matter anyway since I think the point is supposed to be that any wrestler/team/faction has to be a heel before they can be a successful face. Which is ridiculous.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:58 PM   #37
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Shawn Michaels was pretty popular with the Rockers.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:59 PM   #38
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Ricky Steamboat, also.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:02 PM   #39
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:09 PM   #40
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I'm pretty sure the point she was making was that most successful stables started out as heel factions.
ABT supplemented that with the point that the very notion of a stable/faction implies semi-heel behavior. It's gang mentality and usually serves to give wrestlers an edge by having a crew.

So what is really the problem with those points?
I agree with both, tbh.

If it's so untrue, I'd like to see a list of notable stables that started out as faces. Citing that nWo and DX were huge face factions is irrelevant. A total red herring.
They started out as heel groups and functioned as such for some time. Just because they got super popular and sold merch, doesn't change that. That's because they were cool heels. That's like saying Stone Cold and The Rock didn't get over as heels because they ended up turning face in the same gimmick and selling lots of shirts. Has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

They were heels when they started. Fact not opinion. And I don't know why singles careers got dragged into the pot. But, I'm still drawing a blank on stables that started out as face factions. I'm sure there have to be a few, but I certainly can't think of any very successful ones at the moment.
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