Roger Clemens is the man

**John la Rock** · 05-06-2004, 03:06 AM

HOLY SHIT he's 6-0. He's tearing it up in Houston. I think he can pitch another 5 years. He's 41 years old but he's pitching like he's 21. Plus he's now 2nd on the all time strike out list by striking out Raul Mondesi for his 4,137 strikout (all time) passing Steve Carlton. Clemens finished the game with 4,140 K trailing only Nolan Ryan as the all time strikeout king

All hail the greatest pitcher of all time

05-06-2004, 11:41 AM

Yeah, I was just saying to myself how much this guy fk'n rules after he won his fk'n 6 game this year. I mean the guy is probably in better shape then most major leaguers and is just a god dam enigma. I can see a 7th Cy Young by the end of this year.

**VonErich Lives** · 05-06-2004, 12:30 PM

He's great, greatest of all-time is tough because of era's and 4man rotations and stuff...

**AlphaBean** · 05-06-2004, 03:50 PM

I only like him because he's a thug.

05-06-2004, 05:29 PM

Like Vel said, greatest of all-time is something hard to say among pitchers. Many people have there opinions and what not. There are many different accounts you have to take in before saying player "x" was the greatest of all-time. For pitchers, the most common account in the Dead Ball era vs the Live Ball Era. You can say that Christy Matthewson, Walter Johnson, or Grover Alexander were the greatest of all-time because they pitched on 4, sometimes 3, man rotations and they all completed almost all there games. Back then you were expected to complete your games or you were out of a job. But then you take in to account that these pitchers put all kinds of sh** on the ball, which was legal, they used the same ball the whole game, and I think the pitchers mound was a little closer too. I'll have to check that. So there are some reasons why one might refute these guys as the best off all-time.

For the Live Ball guys, (30's-present) pitchers pitched on 5 man rotations, relief pitchers were now used to bail the starters out, and guys were still putting substances on the balls. Gaylord Perry was notorious for rubbing vaseline on the ball. But on the flip side, pitchers were in a "Hitters era," except for the 60's-70's, where hitters averages and homers were up. Pitchers also had to adjust to day/night games and a greater sceduale of games as well.

So, if you take those factors in combined with the facotr of the pitchers who pitched on good teams, you can make an argument.

For me there are two greatest pitchers of all-time. First is Walter Johnson. Johnson pitched on the worst team in basebal, Senators, for almost 20 years and won 400+ games. That's incredible considering the team was in the basement for much of it's early life. Johnson finally won a well deserved championship late in his career for the Senators and pitched one hell of a series. Aside from 400+ wins, Johnson also holds the record for shutouts with 110. Ty Cobb always said that Johnson was the greatest pitcher he's ever seen and that's something considering that he pitched in a "Pitching Age."

The other pitcher in Lefty Grove of the A's and Red Sox. Grove pitched in the mid 20's-early 40's when hitters averages, homers, OBP, and Slugging were all very high. Remember this is the time of Ruth, Gehrig, Hornsby and others. Grove started 458 games and completed 298 of them, his only losing season was his first, he ranks fourth is all-time winning percentage and most of all, his career didn't start until he was 25 years old. He only had 300 wins, but Imagine the total if he started pitching in his early 20's.

**Kamchadal.** · 05-06-2004, 08:28 PM

Not bad for a fat-man!!

**BCWWF** · 05-06-2004, 11:04 PM

I like to see him spitting in the Yankee's face

**Jesus Shuttlesworth** · 05-06-2004, 11:57 PM

I DUNNO

Kinda hard for me to like Clemens after he bounced from the Sox and went to NY

So glad when he didnt get his 300th win againest the Sox

Also I loved "RRRROOOOOOOGGGGGGGGEEEEERRRRRRRRR...RRRRRRRROOOGGGGGGGGEEEEEEERRRRR" chants at the Fenway when he was pitching for other teams. Like I said though..I do think he is nasty but I dunno have a hard time liking him due to the whole Yankees thing. I recently watched a video of his 20 (or is it 21?) strike out performance back in like 1984 I think it was againest Seattle...it was pretty crazy...Struck out a crazy amount of batters in a row

**DaveWadding** · 05-07-2004, 12:00 AM

20 Ks, mang.

**VonErich Lives** · 05-07-2004, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sTiMa34

I DUNNO

Kinda hard for me to like Clemens after he bounced from the Sox and went to NY

So glad when he didnt get his 300th win againest the Sox

Also I loved "RRRROOOOOOOGGGGGGGGEEEEERRRRRRRRR...RRRRRRRROOOGGGGGGGGEEEEEEERRRRR" chants at the Fenway when he was pitching for other teams. Like I said though..I do think he is nasty but I dunno have a hard time liking him due to the whole Yankees thing. I recently watched a video of his 20 (or is it 21?) strike out performance back in like 1984 I think it was againest Seattle...it was pretty crazy...Struck out a crazy amount of batters in a row

Ok, your missing a few things here.

He didn't "bounce" from the sox and go to NY.

1) Duqette refused to re-sign him. He didn't have the option to play here.

2) He went to Toronto, Toronto Traded him to NY.

As for best all-time, I'm going to take Ryan as my power pitcher and I'll take Koufax as my #2 for a nice mix.

05-07-2004, 11:10 AM

Toronto traded him, because he wanted out.

**VonErich Lives** · 05-07-2004, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YOUR Hero

Toronto traded him, because he wanted out.

your point?

**John la Rock** · 05-07-2004, 03:52 PM

he wanted to play for a contender so the Jays traded him to New York

**VonErich Lives** · 05-07-2004, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John la Rock

he wanted to play for a contender so the Jays traded him to New York

Yes, he had a clause in his contract that if the Jays weren't winning he could ask for a trade.

That being said, I didn't get Hero's point in refrence to the conversation, hence why I asked him to clarify.

I never denied he asked to be traded, I just was clearing up he didn't leave Boston for NY, he didn spend 2 years in Toronto and they couldn't build a winner around him.

**Jesus Shuttlesworth** · 05-08-2004, 02:54 AM

Well I dont care how it happened...He still went from the Sox to the Yankees

**AlphaBean** · 05-08-2004, 03:10 AM

I'm sorry, I like playing the "what if" game as much as anyone else, but if Roger ends up breaking most of the records, he will go down as the goat.

There are three factors to becoming the greatest: 1) Skill. 2) Determination. 3) Consistency/longevity.

If you can be in your 40s and pitch on a high level, even if it's not as high as before, and break records... you're the best.

You say that in the 1910s there were 3-man rotations. OK so they pitched more. Why weren't their stats higher?

Clemens can be the goat if he wants to, that's all there is to it.

**VonErich Lives** · 05-08-2004, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sTiMa34

Well I dont care how it happened...He still went from the Sox to the Yankees

No, he didn't... (smacks stima around)... now, try reading this thread again...

**Jesus Shuttlesworth** · 05-08-2004, 01:49 PM

YEAH I KNOW HOW IT HAPPENED DICKIE

I really dont care tho...I still have hard time ever liking anybody who played for the Yankees

I know he signed with the Blue Jays then got traded to the Yankees...I'm not a retard but I dont care about how it happened. He was once on the Sox then he was on the Yanks. That is going from the Red Sox to the Yankees

**VonErich Lives** · 05-08-2004, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sTiMa34

YEAH I KNOW HOW IT HAPPENED DICKIE

I really dont care tho...I still have hard time ever liking anybody who played for the Yankees

I know he signed with the Blue Jays then got traded to the Yankees...I'm not a retard but I dont care about how it happened. He was once on the Sox then he was on the Yanks. That is going from the Red Sox to the Yankees

ok, so your just ignoring the team in between? your also ignoring that Dan Duqette didn't want him back?

How does one play for a team that doesn't want to sign them?

05-08-2004, 05:49 PM

The fk'n Red Sox organization thought he was past his prime and washed up by the time they let him go. That's not Roger being a dick, that's the fk'n management.

**PureHatred** · 05-08-2004, 05:59 PM

^^Exactly.

05-08-2004, 08:26 PM

My point VEL is he wanted out of Toronto, and wanted to go to NY. So in fact he did go to NY out of his own desire.

He was a dick in TO. He wouldn't answer questions, he'd say check my website, blah blah blah... Don't know (or care) if he still does that, but I found as talented as he is and there's no denying it, he's an asshole.

Not resigning him as Duquette did, may have had as much to do with his attitude than him being washed up. I can't say I know that for sure, as I didn't and don't follow the clubroom chatter that closely of teams I'm don't follow.

05-08-2004, 08:34 PM

^^I've never heard that before once. If you watch ESPN or listen to ESPN radio, they always bring up the fact that the main reason the Sox wanted him out was because they thought he was finished and past his prime. Never once did they say it was because he was because of Clemen's attitude. And for the record, I would be pretty pissed off too if I was told I wasn't wanted anymore because I'm past my prime. He had one fk'n losing year with the Sox and they tell him they don't want him around anymore! What is that?

**Jesus Shuttlesworth** · 05-08-2004, 08:38 PM

Yeah I know the mangement didnt resign him but I really dont care..he ended up on the Yankees which makes him a dick

Everybody on the New York Yankees is a dick

05-08-2004, 08:46 PM

HEY LOOK, A BUNCH OF DICKS.

NICE PLAY DICK

**samichna** · 05-08-2004, 08:52 PM

Remember the time he got hypnotized into thinking he was a chicken

**MoRcHeEbA** · 05-08-2004, 08:58 PM

you guys are all missing the important facts here...

He won the World Series twice with the yanks and none with the sox

**Wolverine** · 05-08-2004, 11:08 PM

No matter what way you look at it, Clemens is a great pitcher...

He's 41, in great shape, could probably pitch into his mid 40's and not miss a beat. No matter how you look at it, his numbers are impressive.

He has won CY young awards on every team he's pitched for, sox/jays/yanks and if he continues pitching the way he is in Houston, that won't be any differant.

I've always been a fan of The Rocket, no matter what uniform, a great pitcher is a great pitcher, I'd wrather have him for me than with me...

He 'retired' as a Yankee...and then changed his mind, I'm a yank fan, am I pissed no, it's his choice, and he had the opp to pitch for his hometown team. Now will I be upset if he dun go in the Hall of Fame as a Yankee, yeah, but thats my biased opinion, he should either be a Yank or maybe a Red Sox as a hall of famer, but it would IMO, depend on what team he had the most success on...his call in the end i believe

**VonErich Lives** · 05-08-2004, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YOUR Hero

My point VEL is he wanted out of Toronto, and wanted to go to NY. So in fact he did go to NY out of his own desire.

He was a dick in TO. He wouldn't answer questions, he'd say check my website, blah blah blah... Don't know (or care) if he still does that, but I found as talented as he is and there's no denying it, he's an asshole.

Not resigning him as Duquette did, may have had as much to do with his attitude than him being washed up. I can't say I know that for sure, as I didn't and don't follow the clubroom chatter that closely of teams I'm don't follow.

Of course he wanted out of Toronto he went there w/ the promise of a competitive team and they didn't deliver. So, he had an option in his contract to get out and he used it.

That being said, him leaving Boston had everything to do w/ Duqette thinking he was washed up, and nothing todo w/ attidue, which he did have and probably still does. Funny thing is, they credit Duqette thinking he was washed up w/ getting Clemens to refocus.

**Rob** · 05-09-2004, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samichna

Remember the time he got hypnotized into thinking he was a chicken

Definate career highlight.

05-09-2004, 12:40 AM

Well in '97 Toronto finished 5th, but in '98 they finished 3rd. 12 games over .500 that was a competitive team. They were exciting that year. When Clemens wanted out, he set the Jays back in their team development, he was their ace, their 2 time Cy Young winner.. The guy pissed me off.

05-09-2004, 12:47 AM

^^They were still 3rd though. Clemens had won 2 Cy Young's for the team and they really weren't going nowhere with the Yanks and Sox ahead of them, so he knew it was time to go. I mean, he was nearing the end of his career and he wanted a championship. He saw what the Yankees did in 98 and he went to NY to win a championship. I can see how you would be mad, but I can see why he left.

**The Outlaw** · 05-09-2004, 02:43 AM

Yeah hes the man

I marked out when I heard the Hummer story

**DaveBrawl** · 05-09-2004, 03:54 AM

I'm just so glad he didn't pitch against the Braves this weekend

**The Outlaw** · 05-09-2004, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbrawl83

I'm just so glad he didn't pitch against the Braves this weekend

lol word

05-06-2004, 03:06 AM	#1
John la Rock That's how I roll!!! Posts: 4,437	Roger Clemens is the man HOLY SHIT he's 6-0. He's tearing it up in Houston. I think he can pitch another 5 years. He's 41 years old but he's pitching like he's 21. Plus he's now 2nd on the all time strike out list by striking out Raul Mondesi for his 4,137 strikout (all time) passing Steve Carlton. Clemens finished the game with 4,140 K trailing only Nolan Ryan as the all time strikeout king All hail the greatest pitcher of all time I am not scared of the guy who's one big move is pumping up his reeboks!!!

05-08-2004, 08:46 PM	#25
Loose Cannon Guest Posts: n/a	HEY LOOK, A BUNCH OF DICKS. NICE PLAY DICK Last edited by Loose Cannon; 05-08-2004 at 09:02 PM.

05-06-2004, 11:41 AM	#2
Loose Cannon Guest Posts: n/a	Yeah, I was just saying to myself how much this guy fk'n rules after he won his fk'n 6 game this year. I mean the guy is probably in better shape then most major leaguers and is just a god dam enigma. I can see a 7th Cy Young by the end of this year.

05-06-2004, 12:30 PM	#3
VonErich Lives WTF do you want? Posts: 14,760	He's great, greatest of all-time is tough because of era's and 4man rotations and stuff...

05-06-2004, 03:50 PM	#4
AlphaBean Happy Inside Posts: 18,970	I only like him because he's a thug.

05-06-2004, 05:29 PM	#5
Loose Cannon Guest Posts: n/a	Like Vel said, greatest of all-time is something hard to say among pitchers. Many people have there opinions and what not. There are many different accounts you have to take in before saying player "x" was the greatest of all-time. For pitchers, the most common account in the Dead Ball era vs the Live Ball Era. You can say that Christy Matthewson, Walter Johnson, or Grover Alexander were the greatest of all-time because they pitched on 4, sometimes 3, man rotations and they all completed almost all there games. Back then you were expected to complete your games or you were out of a job. But then you take in to account that these pitchers put all kinds of sh** on the ball, which was legal, they used the same ball the whole game, and I think the pitchers mound was a little closer too. I'll have to check that. So there are some reasons why one might refute these guys as the best off all-time. For the Live Ball guys, (30's-present) pitchers pitched on 5 man rotations, relief pitchers were now used to bail the starters out, and guys were still putting substances on the balls. Gaylord Perry was notorious for rubbing vaseline on the ball. But on the flip side, pitchers were in a "Hitters era," except for the 60's-70's, where hitters averages and homers were up. Pitchers also had to adjust to day/night games and a greater sceduale of games as well. So, if you take those factors in combined with the facotr of the pitchers who pitched on good teams, you can make an argument. For me there are two greatest pitchers of all-time. First is Walter Johnson. Johnson pitched on the worst team in basebal, Senators, for almost 20 years and won 400+ games. That's incredible considering the team was in the basement for much of it's early life. Johnson finally won a well deserved championship late in his career for the Senators and pitched one hell of a series. Aside from 400+ wins, Johnson also holds the record for shutouts with 110. Ty Cobb always said that Johnson was the greatest pitcher he's ever seen and that's something considering that he pitched in a "Pitching Age." The other pitcher in Lefty Grove of the A's and Red Sox. Grove pitched in the mid 20's-early 40's when hitters averages, homers, OBP, and Slugging were all very high. Remember this is the time of Ruth, Gehrig, Hornsby and others. Grove started 458 games and completed 298 of them, his only losing season was his first, he ranks fourth is all-time winning percentage and most of all, his career didn't start until he was 25 years old. He only had 300 wins, but Imagine the total if he started pitching in his early 20's.

05-06-2004, 08:28 PM	#6
Kamchadal. Bark is worse than Bite Posts: 283	Not bad for a fat-man!!

05-06-2004, 11:04 PM	#7
BCWWF The People's Member Posts: 18,092	I like to see him spitting in the Yankee's face

05-06-2004, 11:57 PM	#8
Jesus Shuttlesworth Posts: 42,765	I DUNNO Kinda hard for me to like Clemens after he bounced from the Sox and went to NY So glad when he didnt get his 300th win againest the Sox Also I loved "RRRROOOOOOOGGGGGGGGEEEEERRRRRRRRR...RRRRRRRROOOGGGGGGGGEEEEEEERRRRR" chants at the Fenway when he was pitching for other teams. Like I said though..I do think he is nasty but I dunno have a hard time liking him due to the whole Yankees thing. I recently watched a video of his 20 (or is it 21?) strike out performance back in like 1984 I think it was againest Seattle...it was pretty crazy...Struck out a crazy amount of batters in a row

05-07-2004, 12:00 AM	#9
DaveWadding LIMITLESS Posts: 32,276	20 Ks, mang.

05-07-2004, 11:10 AM	#11
YOUR Hero Guest Posts: n/a	Toronto traded him, because he wanted out.

05-07-2004, 03:52 PM	#13
John la Rock That's how I roll!!! Posts: 4,437	he wanted to play for a contender so the Jays traded him to New York

05-08-2004, 02:54 AM	#15
Jesus Shuttlesworth Posts: 42,765	Well I dont care how it happened...He still went from the Sox to the Yankees

05-08-2004, 03:10 AM	#16
AlphaBean Happy Inside Posts: 18,970	I'm sorry, I like playing the "what if" game as much as anyone else, but if Roger ends up breaking most of the records, he will go down as the goat. There are three factors to becoming the greatest: 1) Skill. 2) Determination. 3) Consistency/longevity. If you can be in your 40s and pitch on a high level, even if it's not as high as before, and break records... you're the best. You say that in the 1910s there were 3-man rotations. OK so they pitched more. Why weren't their stats higher? Clemens can be the goat if he wants to, that's all there is to it.

05-08-2004, 01:49 PM	#18
Jesus Shuttlesworth Posts: 42,765	YEAH I KNOW HOW IT HAPPENED DICKIE I really dont care tho...I still have hard time ever liking anybody who played for the Yankees I know he signed with the Blue Jays then got traded to the Yankees...I'm not a retard but I dont care about how it happened. He was once on the Sox then he was on the Yanks. That is going from the Red Sox to the Yankees

05-08-2004, 05:49 PM	#20
Loose Cannon Guest Posts: n/a	The fk'n Red Sox organization thought he was past his prime and washed up by the time they let him go. That's not Roger being a dick, that's the fk'n management.

05-08-2004, 05:59 PM	#21
PureHatred Instant Credibility Posts: 2,979	^^Exactly.

05-08-2004, 08:26 PM	#22
YOUR Hero Guest Posts: n/a	My point VEL is he wanted out of Toronto, and wanted to go to NY. So in fact he did go to NY out of his own desire. He was a dick in TO. He wouldn't answer questions, he'd say check my website, blah blah blah... Don't know (or care) if he still does that, but I found as talented as he is and there's no denying it, he's an asshole. Not resigning him as Duquette did, may have had as much to do with his attitude than him being washed up. I can't say I know that for sure, as I didn't and don't follow the clubroom chatter that closely of teams I'm don't follow.

05-08-2004, 08:34 PM	#23
Loose Cannon Guest Posts: n/a	^^I've never heard that before once. If you watch ESPN or listen to ESPN radio, they always bring up the fact that the main reason the Sox wanted him out was because they thought he was finished and past his prime. Never once did they say it was because he was because of Clemen's attitude. And for the record, I would be pretty pissed off too if I was told I wasn't wanted anymore because I'm past my prime. He had one fk'n losing year with the Sox and they tell him they don't want him around anymore! What is that?

05-08-2004, 08:38 PM	#24
Jesus Shuttlesworth Posts: 42,765	Yeah I know the mangement didnt resign him but I really dont care..he ended up on the Yankees which makes him a dick Everybody on the New York Yankees is a dick

05-08-2004, 08:52 PM	#26
samichna TAKE IT EACE Posts: 27,417	Remember the time he got hypnotized into thinking he was a chicken

05-08-2004, 08:58 PM	#27
MoRcHeEbA Dirty Sanchez Below Posts: 16,149	you guys are all missing the important facts here... He won the World Series twice with the yanks and none with the sox

05-08-2004, 11:08 PM	#28
Wolverine Art Teacher Posts: 89	No matter what way you look at it, Clemens is a great pitcher... He's 41, in great shape, could probably pitch into his mid 40's and not miss a beat. No matter how you look at it, his numbers are impressive. He has won CY young awards on every team he's pitched for, sox/jays/yanks and if he continues pitching the way he is in Houston, that won't be any differant. I've always been a fan of The Rocket, no matter what uniform, a great pitcher is a great pitcher, I'd wrather have him for me than with me... He 'retired' as a Yankee...and then changed his mind, I'm a yank fan, am I pissed no, it's his choice, and he had the opp to pitch for his hometown team. Now will I be upset if he dun go in the Hall of Fame as a Yankee, yeah, but thats my biased opinion, he should either be a Yank or maybe a Red Sox as a hall of famer, but it would IMO, depend on what team he had the most success on...his call in the end i believe

05-09-2004, 12:40 AM	#31
YOUR Hero Guest Posts: n/a	Well in '97 Toronto finished 5th, but in '98 they finished 3rd. 12 games over .500 that was a competitive team. They were exciting that year. When Clemens wanted out, he set the Jays back in their team development, he was their ace, their 2 time Cy Young winner.. The guy pissed me off.

05-09-2004, 12:47 AM	#32
Loose Cannon Guest Posts: n/a	^^They were still 3rd though. Clemens had won 2 Cy Young's for the team and they really weren't going nowhere with the Yanks and Sox ahead of them, so he knew it was time to go. I mean, he was nearing the end of his career and he wanted a championship. He saw what the Yankees did in 98 and he went to NY to win a championship. I can see how you would be mad, but I can see why he left.

05-09-2004, 02:43 AM	#33
The Outlaw Unofficial Legend Posts: 11,931	Yeah hes the man I marked out when I heard the Hummer story

05-09-2004, 03:54 AM	#34
DaveBrawl Inconceivable Posts: 9,887	I'm just so glad he didn't pitch against the Braves this weekend