cage matches piss me off

**KillerWolf** · 05-11-2004, 02:11 PM

see, the problem with cage matches is the stipulation that one can win by climbing out of the cage. stupidity always ensues. it doesnt matter how good the wrestlers are.

see, with that particular stipulation, the wrestlers become torn between selling their opponents offense, and getting up quickly enough to prevent their adversary from getting out of the cage-and it almost always comes off looking horribly contrived. ya know wrestler A is unconcious, wrestler B already has one foot over the top of the cage. suddenly wrestler B is striken by fatigue and cannot lift the other leg over until wrestler A is on the scene to prevent him from escaping the cage.

so i think that cage matches should be reserved for feuds where the fans ought to be sick and tired of outside interference and that victory by escaping the cage should be striken from the rules.

any thoughts............?

91 · 05-11-2004, 02:14 PM

Am I to guess right in saying that you didn't enjoy the Jericho/Christian match?

**KillerWolf** · 05-11-2004, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 91

Am I to guess right in saying that you didn't enjoy the Jericho/Christian match?

yes that is correct. for the most part, the match sucked and was unworthy of either man. i mean think about it, this is supposed to be the tie-breaker match. the one to settle the feud once and for all. and they're gonna try an settle it, simply by running away and trying to escape from the cage

search your heart. you know this to be true.

91 · 05-11-2004, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shock&awe

yes that is correct. for the most part, the match sucked and was unworthy of either man. i mean think about it, this is supposed to be the tie-breaker match. the one to settle the feud once and for all. and they're gonna try an settle it, simply by running away and trying to escape from the cage

search your heart. you know this to be true.

I would, but I haven't seen the match.

In any case, I second (or sixth) the notion on the cage doors - it's illogical to expect them to not use the door but it's not very exciting when they do. Maybe they should have a ladder match thing going on as well - a big key dangling from the ceiling and if they want to escape through the door, they have to get the key to unlock the big chain. Why not get really wacky and have two brightly coloured keys with each wrestler needing one specific key because there are two doors and each door is assigned to one wrestler with that man only being allowed to use his door, so the other guy will want to prevent him using it.

In any case, the whole slow-climbing thing and so forth is true, but then the same could be said for ladder matches as well, but nobody wants to scrap them permanently (do they??). Certainly though cage, and ladder, matches should be nice and rare, only being used to settle really big feuds, which I will grant could be argued that Jericho and Christian had.

**Ricky** · 05-11-2004, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shock&awe

yes that is correct. for the most part, the match sucked and was unworthy of either man. i mean think about it, this is supposed to be the tie-breaker match. the one to settle the feud once and for all. and they're gonna try an settle it, simply by running away and trying to escape from the cage

search your heart. you know this to be true.

Yeah I get what you mean. They want to settle their differences by beating the shit out of each other, yet the aim of the match is to run away from each other.

**Kane Knight** · 05-11-2004, 02:15 PM

Stop making the cage door a viable exit, too. It looks really stupid to see these two guys battling to climb the cage when they can walk out the fucking door!

**John la Rock** · 05-11-2004, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kane Knight

Stop making the cage door a viable exit, too. It looks really stupid to see these two guys battling to climb the cage when they can walk out the fucking door!

I agree

**The Show Off** · 05-11-2004, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kane Knight

Stop making the cage door a viable exit, too. It looks really stupid to see these two guys battling to climb the cage when they can walk out the fucking door!

Yeah I always wanted them to have a match where the cage door was chained and you have to climb over.

**Gerard** · 05-12-2004, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Show Off

Yeah I always wanted them to have a match where the cage door was chained and you have to climb over.

F*ck chaining it, electrify it and have it used as a weapon during the match.

**The Show Off** · 05-11-2004, 02:15 PM

I don't know I love a good old fasion cage match. It only looks contrived if the two guys in the cage aren't good. If you see Bret Hart v. Owen Hart at Summerslam '94 that's a prefect example of how a cage match can be awesome. Plus it's one of my favorite matches ever.

**King Jericho** · 05-11-2004, 02:20 PM

I always thought that when a wrestler 'escaped' from the cage, it gave them more of a deserved win and feel to thier climbing over the tope rope, whereas, I always felt that if one guy simply just walked through the door, it was a big let down to the finish and the match, and really just made the stipulation of a cage match not really a match where, 'the wrestlers were kept inside the cage' and defied the point of this when simply walking out the door.

Plus it looks bettwe if your wrestler A stops the guy from climbing over the cage to the outside, rather than doing that 'I'm climbing the ladder, ladder atch slow-motion mode' where wrestler B goes into slow motion walking to the door and is stopped by Wrestler A.

**KillerWolf** · 05-11-2004, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Jericho

I always thought that when a wrestler 'escaped' from the cage, it gave them more of a deserved win and feel to thier climbing over the tope rope, whereas, I always felt that if one guy simply just walked through the door, it was a big let down to the finish and the match, and really just made the stipulation of a cage match not really a match where, 'the wrestlers were kept inside the cage' and defied the point of this when simply walking out the door.

Plus it looks bettwe if your wrestler A stops the guy from climbing over the cage to the outside, rather than doing that 'I'm climbing the ladder, ladder atch slow-motion mode' where wrestler B goes into slow motion walking to the door and is stopped by Wrestler A.

but the bottom line is that you are always going to have that slow motion crap in these matches.

**King Jericho** · 05-11-2004, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shock&awe

but the bottom line is that you are always going to have that slow motion crap in these matches.

Of course, and I didn't say you wouldn't but, it looks better and feels more appropriate if the winner escapes over the cage, or is stopped from escaping over the cage rather than using the door.

**Kane Knight** · 05-11-2004, 02:43 PM

It's illogical to expect them not to use them if the doors are usable.

Just don't make them usable.

**PureHatred** · 05-11-2004, 02:47 PM

I preferred the way the old NWA used the cage. It was pinfalls/submissions only and the cage was more of a weapon than a prop. Flair v Race, Dust v Flair, Koloff v Luger all had incredible, brutal cage maches an no one was ever trying to get out.

**KillerWolf** · 05-11-2004, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureHatred

I preferred the way the old NWA used the cage. It was pinfalls/submissions only and the cage was more of a weapon than a prop. Flair v Race, Dust v Flair, Koloff v Luger all had incredible, brutal cage maches an no one was ever trying to get out.

that the point i was trying to make, sir.

**Kane Knight** · 05-11-2004, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureHatred

I preferred the way the old NWA used the cage. It was pinfalls/submissions only and the cage was more of a weapon than a prop. Flair v Race, Dust v Flair, Koloff v Luger all had incredible, brutal cage maches an no one was ever trying to get out.

**Supermark101** · 05-12-2004, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureHatred

I preferred the way the old NWA used the cage. It was pinfalls/submissions only and the cage was more of a weapon than a prop. Flair v Race, Dust v Flair, Koloff v Luger all had incredible, brutal cage maches an no one was ever trying to get out.

I hate the escape rule. I remember when they had a cage matches and said "No one can get in and no one can get out." Why else have a cage match?

**Kane Knight** · 05-12-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermark101

I hate the escape rule. I remember when they had a cage matches and said "No one can get in and no one can get out." Why else have a cage match?

Because these days, they think gimmick match=better match.

If the people inside the cage suck, if the wiriting sucks, the match will suck. However, they think that having a cage around it improves things.

**Goldbird** · 05-12-2004, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureHatred

I preferred the way the old NWA used the cage. It was pinfalls/submissions only and the cage was more of a weapon than a prop. Flair v Race, Dust v Flair, Koloff v Luger all had incredible, brutal cage maches an no one was ever trying to get out.

any difference from a hell in a cell match?

**Longshot** · 05-11-2004, 03:19 PM

I guess the same thing could be said about a ladder match. You have guys tring to sell their opponents offense, the they do a few moves really quickly and then take forever to climb the ladder.

**tucsonspeed6** · 05-11-2004, 03:19 PM

The door should stay there, but only so the heel has an escape route. If the heel tries to make his way over the top of the cage, he looks as though he actually is better than his opponent, which isn't always the best option. Given the two routes, the heel should always go for the quicker, easier route, resulting in less respect and an almost unspoken shame.

For example, imagine if it had been to a point where Chrisian was down. Jericho got to his feet and Christian has an "oh shit" moment and scrambles for the door hoping to escape. Jericho grabs his foot and pulls him to the center of the ring, kicks him a couple times, then goes to one of the turnbuckles, unties it, and uses the rope to tie the door shut. Christian gets to his feet, sucker punches Jericho in the back and goes for the door, but finds out he can't get it open because it's tied shut. He tries to untie the knot, but with the time wasted, Jericho gets to his feet, turns Christian around and starts beating him down again. It makes Christain look as though he's truley afraid of Jericho and when he gets stuck in the cage, the fans feel as though that CLB finally got what was coming to him. Jericho then has the option of beating his opponent to a pulp and leaving over the top of the cage as a kind of "pity" fall, or he can simply go for a pin/submission.

**The CyNick** · 05-11-2004, 03:48 PM

Cage matches can be amazing, as The Show Off mentioned, Bret-Owen was probably the bets cage match in WWE history,a nd one of the top matches of all time.

The key, like most of wrestling, is selling.

First, in general heels should be afraid of the idea of a Cage Match, because they cant run away, nobody (in theory) can help them, they are surrounded by steel that can rip at their flesh, and likely they are standing across from a pissed off babyface who is dead set on getting revenge.

At the beginning of a cage match, the heel should be trying to run out the door. Why? Well first off, he'll win the match, but most importantly because he wants to escape a beating.

The next key is the climbing the cage. Guys should go out of their way to not be good at climbing out of the cage. This allows the other guy to recover and pull the guy off the cage. That makes sense because guys rarely work Cage Matches, so they should be unskilled at climbing out of the cage.

You also have to sell the actual cage like a maniac. Cage Matches have to seem dangerous, and as a result I dont think there should ever be a cage match where at least one of the guys isn't cut open (and actually both should do colour). Once this happens, the selling has to be taken to another level. So if Christian hits the Unprettier on Jericho and because he's a heel he goes for the door. Well, since he's been busted open, maybe he heads for the wrong part of the ring, and then by bthe time he figures out where he is, the babyface can recover and make a comeback.

There are tons of ways to do an effective cage match, the guys involve just have to sell, sell and then sell again in order to get over the gimmick, and avoid doing anything stupid that hurts the credibility of the match.

**The Show Off** · 05-12-2004, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The CyNick

Cage matches can be amazing, as The Show Off mentioned, Bret-Owen was probably the bets cage match in WWE history,a nd one of the top matches of all time.

The key, like most of wrestling, is selling.

First, in general heels should be afraid of the idea of a Cage Match, because they cant run away, nobody (in theory) can help them, they are surrounded by steel that can rip at their flesh, and likely they are standing across from a pissed off babyface who is dead set on getting revenge.

At the beginning of a cage match, the heel should be trying to run out the door. Why? Well first off, he'll win the match, but most importantly because he wants to escape a beating.

The next key is the climbing the cage. Guys should go out of their way to not be good at climbing out of the cage. This allows the other guy to recover and pull the guy off the cage. That makes sense because guys rarely work Cage Matches, so they should be unskilled at climbing out of the cage.

You also have to sell the actual cage like a maniac. Cage Matches have to seem dangerous, and as a result I dont think there should ever be a cage match where at least one of the guys isn't cut open (and actually both should do colour). Once this happens, the selling has to be taken to another level. So if Christian hits the Unprettier on Jericho and because he's a heel he goes for the door. Well, since he's been busted open, maybe he heads for the wrong part of the ring, and then by bthe time he figures out where he is, the babyface can recover and make a comeback.

There are tons of ways to do an effective cage match, the guys involve just have to sell, sell and then sell again in order to get over the gimmick, and avoid doing anything stupid that hurts the credibility of the match.

Good job. Personally I think cage matches have been underused in recent years. I'd love to see the pay off of a big feud (bigger then Jericho-Christian) done in a steel cage... If Kurt Angle wasn't injured I'd think that he and Guerrero could put on a cage match that might be able to rival Owen v. Bret... However I don't see anyone ever surpassing that match. Those two guys could put on a 5* match with eachother in there sleep. I've never seen two guys have such a bond in the ring...

91 · 05-11-2004, 03:53 PM

Damn, I couldn't have put it better if I'd even tried.

**Corkscrewed** · 05-11-2004, 03:55 PM

^ very well said.

The key is in the wrestlers, not the cage. If you have smart wrestlers, you can make any cage match be great. Of course, that can be said about anything, lol.

**Stickman** · 05-11-2004, 05:18 PM

I'm waiting for the day when somebody knows they're about to be fired or their contract will run out so they are expected to lose the cage match. However, out of spite, 2 seconds into the cage match he legitimately bolts for the door and hops out. Or imagine if there was a championship match in the cage and the challenger bolts for the door immediately and must be the champion because they can't say he cheated or anything.

**Head** · 05-11-2004, 06:10 PM

They need to bring back the blue bars cage.

**Vastardikai** · 05-12-2004, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head

They need to bring back the blue bars cage.

Indeed, the blue cage looked cool as hell. The chain link cage has a kind of wicked feel to it, but it looks like they're fighting inside a chainlink fence.

**Ferocious** · 05-12-2004, 08:21 AM

i can think of quite a few

**Goldbird** · 05-12-2004, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferocious

i can think of quite a few

ok maybe something like...

1. The cage doesnt have a roof, but the cell has...

Honestly, i cant think of anything more. Maybe i am tired.

**Ferocious** · 05-12-2004, 08:55 AM

The Cage doesnt leave an area around the ring to be used
The Cage isnt as high (Well technically it is as high of the floor) but not as high.
The Door is positioned in a different place
The HIAC Match is a much bigger draw than a regular cage match
The aim of the HIAC isnt to escape

**Goldbird** · 05-12-2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferocious

The Cage doesnt leave an area around the ring to be used
The Cage isnt as high (Well technically it is as high of the floor) but not as high.
The Door is positioned in a different place
The HIAC Match is a much bigger draw than a regular cage match
The aim of the HIAC isnt to escape

By suggesting that the cages matches in wwe become the matches in WCW, you are indeed implying that the aim of the cage matches should be just "oh, let's fight till the end", instead of "let's try to escape"

**Stickman** · 05-12-2004, 01:15 PM

Did WCW have cage matches with a roof?

Also, did Sting and Hogan have one with Barbed Wire around the top?

I thought I remember watching fuzzy pay per views with these.

**Fox** · 05-12-2004, 09:46 PM

My only problem with the steel cage match is the door. When a guy is halfway out the ****ing door, and then the other wrestler grabs his leg or hair or whatever and pulls him back in, it looks completely ridiculous. It's not drama, and it's not suspense. It's simply "What the ****? Why did he try to crawl out head first?" or "What the ****? Why didn't he touch his ****ing feet???" If they got rid of that rule, I would be perfectly happy with the WWE's cage matches.

05-11-2004, 02:11 PM	#1
KillerWolf \m/(-.-)\m/ Posts: 1,456	cage matches piss me off see, the problem with cage matches is the stipulation that one can win by climbing out of the cage. stupidity always ensues. it doesnt matter how good the wrestlers are. see, with that particular stipulation, the wrestlers become torn between selling their opponents offense, and getting up quickly enough to prevent their adversary from getting out of the cage-and it almost always comes off looking horribly contrived. ya know wrestler A is unconcious, wrestler B already has one foot over the top of the cage. suddenly wrestler B is striken by fatigue and cannot lift the other leg over until wrestler A is on the scene to prevent him from escaping the cage. so i think that cage matches should be reserved for feuds where the fans ought to be sick and tired of outside interference and that victory by escaping the cage should be striken from the rules. any thoughts............?

05-11-2004, 02:14 PM	#2
91 Posts: 14,008	Am I to guess right in saying that you didn't enjoy the Jericho/Christian match?

05-11-2004, 02:15 PM	#6
Kane Knight Ron Paul 4 EVA Posts: 152,467	Stop making the cage door a viable exit, too. It looks really stupid to see these two guys battling to climb the cage when they can walk out the fucking door!

05-11-2004, 02:15 PM	#10
The Show Off Total Non-Stop Apologist Posts: 4,430	I don't know I love a good old fasion cage match. It only looks contrived if the two guys in the cage aren't good. If you see Bret Hart v. Owen Hart at Summerslam '94 that's a prefect example of how a cage match can be awesome. Plus it's one of my favorite matches ever.

05-11-2004, 02:20 PM	#11
King Jericho Wii :love: Posts: 3,915	I always thought that when a wrestler 'escaped' from the cage, it gave them more of a deserved win and feel to thier climbing over the tope rope, whereas, I always felt that if one guy simply just walked through the door, it was a big let down to the finish and the match, and really just made the stipulation of a cage match not really a match where, 'the wrestlers were kept inside the cage' and defied the point of this when simply walking out the door. Plus it looks bettwe if your wrestler A stops the guy from climbing over the cage to the outside, rather than doing that 'I'm climbing the ladder, ladder atch slow-motion mode' where wrestler B goes into slow motion walking to the door and is stopped by Wrestler A.

05-11-2004, 02:43 PM	#14
Kane Knight Ron Paul 4 EVA Posts: 152,467	It's illogical to expect them not to use them if the doors are usable. Just don't make them usable.

05-11-2004, 02:47 PM	#15
PureHatred Instant Credibility Posts: 2,979	I preferred the way the old NWA used the cage. It was pinfalls/submissions only and the cage was more of a weapon than a prop. Flair v Race, Dust v Flair, Koloff v Luger all had incredible, brutal cage maches an no one was ever trying to get out.

05-11-2004, 03:19 PM	#21
Longshot Posts: 195	I guess the same thing could be said about a ladder match. You have guys tring to sell their opponents offense, the they do a few moves really quickly and then take forever to climb the ladder.

05-11-2004, 03:19 PM	#22
tucsonspeed6 Banned WWE on 1/1/07 Posts: 2,141	The door should stay there, but only so the heel has an escape route. If the heel tries to make his way over the top of the cage, he looks as though he actually is better than his opponent, which isn't always the best option. Given the two routes, the heel should always go for the quicker, easier route, resulting in less respect and an almost unspoken shame. For example, imagine if it had been to a point where Chrisian was down. Jericho got to his feet and Christian has an "oh shit" moment and scrambles for the door hoping to escape. Jericho grabs his foot and pulls him to the center of the ring, kicks him a couple times, then goes to one of the turnbuckles, unties it, and uses the rope to tie the door shut. Christian gets to his feet, sucker punches Jericho in the back and goes for the door, but finds out he can't get it open because it's tied shut. He tries to untie the knot, but with the time wasted, Jericho gets to his feet, turns Christian around and starts beating him down again. It makes Christain look as though he's truley afraid of Jericho and when he gets stuck in the cage, the fans feel as though that CLB finally got what was coming to him. Jericho then has the option of beating his opponent to a pulp and leaving over the top of the cage as a kind of "pity" fall, or he can simply go for a pin/submission.

05-11-2004, 03:48 PM	#23
The CyNick Make the IWC Great Again Posts: 8,922	Cage matches can be amazing, as The Show Off mentioned, Bret-Owen was probably the bets cage match in WWE history,a nd one of the top matches of all time. The key, like most of wrestling, is selling. First, in general heels should be afraid of the idea of a Cage Match, because they cant run away, nobody (in theory) can help them, they are surrounded by steel that can rip at their flesh, and likely they are standing across from a pissed off babyface who is dead set on getting revenge. At the beginning of a cage match, the heel should be trying to run out the door. Why? Well first off, he'll win the match, but most importantly because he wants to escape a beating. The next key is the climbing the cage. Guys should go out of their way to not be good at climbing out of the cage. This allows the other guy to recover and pull the guy off the cage. That makes sense because guys rarely work Cage Matches, so they should be unskilled at climbing out of the cage. You also have to sell the actual cage like a maniac. Cage Matches have to seem dangerous, and as a result I dont think there should ever be a cage match where at least one of the guys isn't cut open (and actually both should do colour). Once this happens, the selling has to be taken to another level. So if Christian hits the Unprettier on Jericho and because he's a heel he goes for the door. Well, since he's been busted open, maybe he heads for the wrong part of the ring, and then by bthe time he figures out where he is, the babyface can recover and make a comeback. There are tons of ways to do an effective cage match, the guys involve just have to sell, sell and then sell again in order to get over the gimmick, and avoid doing anything stupid that hurts the credibility of the match.

05-11-2004, 03:53 PM	#25
91 Posts: 14,008	Damn, I couldn't have put it better if I'd even tried.

05-11-2004, 03:55 PM	#26
Corkscrewed Posts: 18,357	^ very well said. The key is in the wrestlers, not the cage. If you have smart wrestlers, you can make any cage match be great. Of course, that can be said about anything, lol.

05-11-2004, 05:18 PM	#27
Stickman Stickman Posts: 15,119	I'm waiting for the day when somebody knows they're about to be fired or their contract will run out so they are expected to lose the cage match. However, out of spite, 2 seconds into the cage match he legitimately bolts for the door and hops out. Or imagine if there was a championship match in the cage and the challenger bolts for the door immediately and must be the champion because they can't say he cheated or anything.

05-11-2004, 06:10 PM	#28
Head Shocker Posts: 3,124	They need to bring back the blue bars cage.

05-12-2004, 08:21 AM	#30
Ferocious jWo 4 Lyfe! Posts: 3,268	i can think of quite a few

05-12-2004, 08:55 AM	#32
Ferocious jWo 4 Lyfe! Posts: 3,268	The Cage doesnt leave an area around the ring to be used The Cage isnt as high (Well technically it is as high of the floor) but not as high. The Door is positioned in a different place The HIAC Match is a much bigger draw than a regular cage match The aim of the HIAC isnt to escape

05-12-2004, 01:15 PM	#34
Stickman Stickman Posts: 15,119	Did WCW have cage matches with a roof? Also, did Sting and Hogan have one with Barbed Wire around the top? I thought I remember watching fuzzy pay per views with these.

05-12-2004, 09:46 PM	#35
Fox "Ask him!" Posts: 10,072	My only problem with the steel cage match is the door. When a guy is halfway out the **ing door, and then the other wrestler grabs his leg or hair or whatever and pulls him back in, it looks completely ridiculous. It's not drama, and it's not suspense. It's simply "What the ? Why did he try to crawl out head first?" or "What the ? Why didn't he touch his **ing feet???" If they got rid of that rule, I would be perfectly happy with the WWE's cage matches.