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Old 05-19-2004, 04:56 PM   #1
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Bigotry on Raw
I am sure a lot of you guys saw the Orton/Benjamin confrontation on Raw. When Orton said "you people", you could hear the crowd in awe because it was a rather racist remark. I remember Evolution had previously done this to Booker T. Heck, I remember Vince calling Booker T some type of ancient dinosaur name that was construed as being a racist remark. Also, a few weeks back, Coach did the whole Oriental stereotype thing with Tajiri (Chinese food). With JBL, and WWE's past history with bigotry not being punished, do you think something should be done? I am curious as to what the networks had to say. Using bigotry is a cheap way to get heat, but hopefully it isn't the prevalent part of a storyline. Just want to know what you guys think. BTW, this discussion is argued by Wade Keller of PWtorch.com, so check it out if your interested.
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Old 05-19-2004, 05:14 PM   #2
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Yeah I was shocked but I don't think he meant to be racist...what was it meant as?
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Old 05-19-2004, 05:58 PM   #3
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No, I'm pretty sure he meant it to be racist.

The WWE is a pretty ****ed up place. You've got Randy and Triple H referring to Shelton Benjamin and Booker T as "you people," then you've got every Asian wrestler using a sterotypical asian gimmick, you've got Kane raping women, and Triple H wearing more and more Nazi insignia every week.
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Old 05-19-2004, 06:16 PM   #4
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vince is playing the race card again to get raitings
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:00 PM   #5
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He also referred to Benjamin as "uppitty." Usually, uppity comes right before "negro" or the less friendly version.

I think they're trying to come as close to racism as possible without overtly stating it, to get some heat without actually being truly offensive.
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:01 PM   #6
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By the way, the word was "Trogolodyte," Though I prolly have the spelling wrong.

It's not a dinosaur term.
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:06 PM   #7
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I don't know why they need to touch upon racism. It's pretty uncalled for...
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:09 PM   #8
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Because they need sheap heat. Orton's losing people's interest (Thanks to their massive overhyping), Triple H is boring, the Naitch is about 50 years past his prime (He was the man in the 30s tho), Batista's just...

Just like La Resistance, the Un-Americans, etc., they chose the low road for cheap heat instead of trying to come up with good storylines.
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBK
Suckers like you get very angry, and that is the point. Congratulations, you have been played by the WWE. Tune in next week.
It only works if he does tune in next week to boo the heel and cheer the face.
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:29 PM   #10
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I agree, the WWE is using the race card as a way to gain interest in a feud between Orton and Benjamin (which BTW has never worked in the WWE). And I agree the WWE is trying to portray Benjamin as the face and Orton as the racist heel. If this was any other movie or TV show, the evil racist guy would lose, and the black guy who has faced predjudice will get revenge.

HOWEVER

In the land of the WWE there is no moral justice when it comes to race issues. The WWE went even further in the past with Triple H in his feud with Booker T leading to Wrestlemania XIX. I'm sure we all remember the comments HHH made, and in that story it looked like the only way to end the story was for HHH to get his in the end at the hands of Booker T (who would win the Championship in the process). Unfortunately not only did Booker T lose that match, but it was done in a way that made BT look totally inferior to HHH. And on top of that BT left the main event scene right after WM. So in essence the WWE told their fans that the white evil racist guy was superior to the black man (who was put in his place). Their was no moral justice, the racist guy won.

So I dont think there's any guarantee that Orton will lose this feud to finish the story properly. I can just as eaisly see history repeating itself and once again the WWE will tell the story that "those people" are not good enough to compete in a white man's world.

Beyond that its clear that Vince and the rest of the people on creative and some of the workers are racist. There are too many racial driven gimmicks and angles that illustrate that Vince probably has some racism, check that a lot of racism flowing through his viens.

What boggles my mind is that the WWE is a publically traded company and yet they allow this kind of stuff to happen on their TV. To me thats unaccpetable, but unfortunately just like people dont care that Vince does nothing to sstop his wrestlers from steroid abuse they dont care about this. Its just a product of the mainstream media not caring about wrestling and what goes on in the industry.
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick
The WWE went even further in the past with Triple H in his feud with Booker T leading to Wrestlemania XIX. I'm sure we all remember the comments HHH made, and in that story it looked like the only way to end the story was for HHH to get his in the end at the hands of Booker T (who would win the Championship in the process). Unfortunately not only did Booker T lose that match, but it was done in a way that made BT look totally inferior to HHH. And on top of that BT left the main event scene right after WM. So in essence the WWE told their fans that the white evil racist guy was superior to the black man (who was put in his place). Their was no moral justice, the racist guy won.
Yep. Worst feud ever. Had Booker won, it would have been worth it. But nope. That was also HHH's worst period on TV, IMO...even more so than the hog-tying days.
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:33 PM   #12
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the Naitch is about 50 years past his prime (He was the man in the 30s tho),
lol, credit where it's due, that was funny.
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:19 PM   #13
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WWE has never been one to be keen on new ideas. I mean, when you're still taking shots at the French over and over and over again, it's pretty damn ignorant. Occassional shots at the French are fine, though; just don't put it on a neverending loop.
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:24 PM   #14
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I'm not offended by it myself, but I don't think issues such as racism belong in WWE. I understand that it's used to form cheap heat, but that shows a lack of skill from the writing standpoint. The same can be said for the Anti-American angles. Now I don't mind La Resistance as they're used more of a comedy act these days and I like that, but they had the Hart Foundation, Doug Funas and Phillip Lofan, the UnAmericans, closely followed La Resistance, and even more recently they were going to have Hirohito as seeking revenge on Americans for World War II.

There's too much of it, you know? They need to explore other paths...

As for racism, I still see no need for it, but if you're going to use it in a way that it actually plays a part in the storyline, and not just for shock value, then okay...but to a point. I don't think the WWE are racist, either. I'm sure Benjamin and Booker wouldn't go through with it if they felt they were actually being discriminated. But they need to cut back on the use of politics, etc. in their storylines...
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:49 PM   #15
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As long as the WWE does not cross the line, I see no problem. Wrestling, in general, has played upon stereotypes for years. Back during the cold war, wrestling would take someone from Bumf**k Texas, give him a set of red tights, a bad accent and place him as a Russian Heel. They have historically portrayed Asians as a bowing, smiling, group that somehow are always experts in the martial arts. Hell, wrestling makes fun of everyone and places stereotypes on everyone, they equally offend all. Is everyone from Arkansas like the Godwinns?? (well, maybe that was a bad example)
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Old 05-19-2004, 07:44 PM   #16
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It's cheap heat because it's very easy to do. Any fool can spout off a racist remark, which makes this tactic cheap. There's no thinking or thought behind it. Also, it's used mostly as shock value, which in itself is a cheap ploy...
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:22 PM   #17
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What did HHH say to booker t?
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savior
What did HHH say to booker t?
He told Book "Get me a towel" after Booker just hit up on HHH with a fat promo. Cheap way to avoid creativity and to generate heat.

I still can't believe they did that. Slavery really isn't somethin to be joking about...
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:34 PM   #19
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They've used stereotypes to fuel half of the gimmicks they've ever televised... No different here.

And nobody has brought up the use of Eugene yet....
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Old 05-19-2004, 10:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
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They've used stereotypes to fuel half of the gimmicks they've ever televised... No different here.

And nobody has brought up the use of Eugene yet....
You musta missed the like, 10 threads.
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Old 05-19-2004, 10:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
You musta missed the like, 10 threads.
Yep. The day after Eugene was introduced, there were many threads expressing concern over his portrayal as a mentally challenged wrestler.

But now, they've toned it down in a manner, that seems funny...the people seem to like him for now.
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Old 05-19-2004, 10:08 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batsu
Yep. The day after Eugene was introduced, there were many threads expressing concern over his portrayal as a mentally challenged wrestler.

But now, they've toned it down in a manner, that seems funny...the people seem to like him for now.
Because of the way they're doing it.

You know, it's still a little dodgy, but I was expecting much worse from the WWE. Is Eugene distasteful? Perhaps. They've pushed it with a couple of things, but they've gone out of their way to make him look like a capable wrestler in the ring, even if he's not all that bright out of the ring.
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Old 05-19-2004, 10:04 PM   #23
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Also, I'll point out there's a difference between a stereotype and a slur. Sometimes, that line's pretty fine.

On the other hand, it's not like he flat-out called Benjamin an "uppitty nigger."
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:46 PM   #24
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He also commented on Booker's 'nappy' hair and at one point told him to 'come out and dance for me, boy.'
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:57 PM   #25
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I wonder who came up with all of that shit. Triple H, Vince, or someone else.

On a funny note: Triple H told Booker WCW was garbage, WITH RIC FLAIR (15 time WCW Champion) standing right next to him, and THE FORMER WCW BELT over his shoulder.
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:58 PM   #26
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Also, if you don't see this as cheap heat... then I don't know what to tell you. That's delusion at its best. A budding heel of Randy Orton's stature shouldn't even have to say that to get the people's interest. It did the job...but knowing WWE, there will be no comeuppance here.

This is the same lameness that they did with Teddy... I mean, Theodore Long before they shipped him to Smackdown, and Rodney Mack disappeared into virtual obscurity.
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Old 05-19-2004, 10:22 PM   #27
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Know what I'd like to see? Bring in a heel wrestler portraying one of the abusive gaurds in Al Qaeda. Y'know, maybe even bring back Tiger Ali Singh and have the guy beat the shit out of him, stuff him in a body bag, and take a picture with a huge smile and a big thumbs up.

Of course, that will never happen. America is the land of the true and the just! Everyone else is a heel, and America is the #1 Babyface.
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Old 05-19-2004, 11:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Of course, that will never happen. America is the land of the true and the just! Everyone else is a heel, and America is the #1 Babyface.
Unless you have a character who looks, acts, believes, and portrays himself as the taller version of the President of the United States of America.Then you have a heel on your hands.
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
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Of course, that will never happen. America is the land of the true and the just! Everyone else is a heel, and America is the #1 Babyface.
Yup. Like Kurt Angle.

Wait a minute...
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sunday Night
Know what I'd like to see? Bring in a heel wrestler portraying one of the abusive gaurds in Al Qaeda. Y'know, maybe even bring back Tiger Ali Singh and have the guy beat the shit out of him, stuff him in a body bag, and take a picture with a huge smile and a big thumbs up.

Of course, that will never happen. America is the land of the true and the just! Everyone else is a heel, and America is the #1 Babyface.
Well, the best way to appeal to the lowest common denomenator is to say that the place they're living in is the best.

But seriously, Rene bringing up the recent incidents overseas was going too far. If I want to hear about the war, there are like 50 news channels I can go to. I don't turn on wrestling to see people say America deserved it anymore than I do to see people bash the french or arabs. This shit doesn't sit well with me, and issn't the sort of thing that make me want to buy a pay per view or merch from them. Hell, it makes me want to watch their other programming all the less.
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Old 05-19-2004, 11:36 PM   #31
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I really doubt the HHH logo is meant to be a nazi symbol considering he has ric flair (a JEW) by his side these days.
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Old 05-20-2004, 12:00 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Flight 411
I really doubt the HHH logo is meant to be a nazi symbol considering he has ric flair (a JEW) by his side these days.
Dunno. He's gone beyond JUST the iron cross now. It's no longer as simple a coincidence as before, because he's now using that eagle, too.
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Old 05-20-2004, 12:01 AM   #33
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Flair's jewish?

Hmmm, you learn something new everyday, I guess.
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Old 05-20-2004, 02:11 PM   #34
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Flair's jewish?

Hmmm, you learn something new everyday, I guess.
yea that was a suprise to me too
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:07 PM   #35
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I guess you could say WWE are making it too "real", which isn't what it's all about...
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:22 PM   #36
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I have no problem with rasism in the WWE, art is a reflection of society, WWE is the art of wrestling and acting and in the world there is a lot of racisim out there. The more we hind the fact that people are racist, the more we're going to have a problem. People need to throw there cards on the table and not be afarid to use racial slurs so that perhaps some of this elitist crap will come to an end. We're all humans and the more we dodge the fact that people are racist the worse the bigotry will get. People just have to be honest rather then walking on egg shells. The problem with racists is that most of them aren't vocal, if people were just more honest perhaps we could solve this problem.

But then again comming from a white kid from the suburbs I guess you could take waht I say with a grain of salt, because I love in a town where 99% of the population is caucasions...
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Old 05-20-2004, 03:59 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Show Off
I have no problem with rasism in the WWE, art is a reflection of society, WWE is the art of wrestling and acting and in the world there is a lot of racisim out there. The more we hind the fact that people are racist, the more we're going to have a problem. People need to throw there cards on the table and not be afarid to use racial slurs so that perhaps some of this elitist crap will come to an end. We're all humans and the more we dodge the fact that people are racist the worse the bigotry will get. People just have to be honest rather then walking on egg shells. The problem with racists is that most of them aren't vocal, if people were just more honest perhaps we could solve this problem.

But then again comming from a white kid from the suburbs I guess you could take waht I say with a grain of salt, because I love in a town where 99% of the population is caucasions...
There's a difference between "Let's pretend racism doesn't exist!" and "This has no place in pro wrestling."

This isn't high culture, art, or whatever. This is cheap entertainment. A low-brow ballet with a bunch of sweaty guys grabbing each other for a title. People don't tune in to see a reflection of modern culture in a professional sport environment. It's athleticism and entertainment and some cheap fun. People tune in to see disbelief suspended and such.

How often, I must ask, does wrestling really reflect real life anyways? Do you often feel the burden of being a Super-Hero In Training? Do you frequently get beat up by an abusive boss/manager? Are there stables in your workplace?Does being a good rapper make you a better athelete?
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:31 PM   #38
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I strongly disagree. I don't think it's that we're trying to pretend racists don't exist, because we're all very aware that they do. But it doesn't belong in a wrestling ring, that's all.

Also, WWE is of course a family show, so using racial slurs wouldn't go down too well...
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Old 05-20-2004, 05:57 PM   #39
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Stables in the work place, yes. At where I used to work, everyone had their own cliques. Thats all stables are. A bunch of people that hang out together and say "We're not talking to them", but in the World of Wrestling and Entertainment, they can say "We're not talking to them, but we are beating the crap out of them, WOOOOOOO!" erm, I mean, never mind.
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Old 05-20-2004, 06:15 PM   #40
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A stable is generally more than a bunch of people hanging out together at work.
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