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Old 03-31-2015, 02:50 AM   #1
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DISCUSSION - When is it 'acceptable' for a veteran to put over an up-and-coming wrestler?
DISCUSSION - When is it 'acceptable' for a veteran to put over an up-and-coming wrestler?

I'll be completely honest. Outside of Wrestlemania 14 and Wrestlemania 17, this may have been my favorite Wrestlemania of all-time. However, there was one thing that kind of stuck out to me, and a few others commented on it as well:


  • Big Show winning the Andre-The-Giant memorial
  • John Cena defeating Rusev
  • Undertaker defeating Bray Wyatt
  • Randy Orton defeating Seth Rollins
In other words, all of the established vets going over the up-and comers.


Now don't get me wrong - Contrary to most of the IWC, I agree with the WWE that all of those booking decisions were the correct decisions. Even Triple H defeating Sting was the correct move in my opinion.


However - in your opinion, when should an "up-and-coming star" go over an established vet?


My answer to the above question is as follows:


ONLY when there is a very realistic chance of said wrestler becoming "THE" guy within the coming calendar year, should an "up-and-comer" go CLEANLY over a main-eventer and/or 'legend' in the business........especially at a place like Wrestlemania.


In the cases of Rusev and Wyatt, I do not see the WWE making either guy "the guy" within the next 12 months, and so I agreed with the WWE's decision to not have them go over at Mania. In both Rusev and Wyatt's cases, both men had already established themselves as being solid future 'blue chip' wrestlers due to having achieved significant victories throughout the year. And again - since neither guy will be going ahead of guys like Rollins, Reigns, and Lesnar on the depth chart anytime soon, going over guys like Cena and Taker would have been wasted. It was in the WWE's best interests to have Cena and Taker look strong here. By making Cena look strong, it adds to the characters of guys like Reigns and Rollins if they go over Cena at some point. By having Taker go over Wyatt, it helps Lesnar's victory over Taker look even more historic/significant.




Seth Rollins jobbed to Orton, but then went on to win the title. For most long term wrestling fans, you know that this is a page out of Owen-Bret-Yokozuna from back in the day. With Rollins winning the title and yet jobbing to Orton, it inadvertently re-establishes Orton as a worthy contender as well. Hence, more parity.


Andre-the-Giant memorial = same thing. None of those contestants in the Battle Royale, are 'over' enough to the point of being worthy enough to receive a significant push within the coming year. There is far more value in having a guy like Big Show go over, so that it makes someone like Reigns, Bryan, etc, look even MORE credible if/when he goes over a guy like Show at some point during the year.


As much as the IWC always seem to want the 'up-and-comer' to go over the established vet, I think the WWE are doing things the right way. If and when a guy is TRULY ready, and is worthy enough of being "the guy" (i.e. Steve Austin going over HBK at WM-14), that's when you bite the proverbial boner and let the guy go over. Daniel Bryan going CLEANLY over John Cena at Summerslam 2013 is another great example. Foley putting over HHH in 2000 all those times......another great example. HHH putting over Batista all those times in 2005, and then Cena in 2006 = yet another example.
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Old 03-31-2015, 05:25 AM   #2
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Hmm. The Andre win for Big Show seemed to be half "have your moment, Giant" and half "after fucking up with Cesaro we need a guy to win this that has already had a career so we can tout him as a winner with some accomplishments next year." The whole booking of the thing felt weird. When I saw Cesaro out there, I immediately wanted him to repeat. The ending with Miz and Sandow felt weird. I guess the match really doesn't matter in the end, which is a shame, because it could.

John Cena beating Rusev was the right call. Cena as the US Champion is actually interesting, and Rusev can now come back badder than ever before. If he's going to move up the card, he needs to lose that US Title at some point too. People were saying "Rusev should beat Cena and then get a main event heel push." Well, he's actually got a mid-card title. See the problem there?

The more I think about it, the more I think that Bray Wyatt should have beaten Cena last year. It wasn't a death knell for him, but in retrospect, the win didn't really help Cena too much. This year, Wyatt probably could have used the win against Taker. With Brock seemingly transitioning into mega-face, having Wyatt as a mega-heel that has also beaten The Undertaker at WrestleMania? That could be money. Taker also could have rebounded off another loss for a "three strikes and I'm out" moment at WrestleMania in Dallas.

Orton beating Rollins makes sense for the parity reasons you mentioned. Orton has got a great claim to the World Title right now, and he's red hot when he's a babyface. Plus he needed a big win so people know they can take him seriously again. Rollins winning wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world, but it would have left the Rollins/Orton story in the dark a bit.

To answer your real question here: I think it's when the young guy winning makes money for the company. Or sets up money-making opportunities. When the veteran can afford the loss and it tells a better story for them to lose, go for it.
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Old 03-31-2015, 05:38 AM   #3
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Fans throw a shitfit too easy over things like this.

IMO, doesn't matter what a guys age is as long as he's entertaining. Like in TNA, Bully Ray was awesome while Anderson/Styles/Joe were boring for a long ass time.

I know WWE need to do it at some stage but blanket statements like 'WWE need to put over the young guys' is untrue and misleading, they need to push INTERESTING guys regardless of age.
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Old 03-31-2015, 06:12 AM   #4
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The above is a good point.
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Old 03-31-2015, 06:12 AM   #5
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Also, the company needs to stop taking their interesting guys and booking them like shit.
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Old 03-31-2015, 06:27 AM   #6
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The only one of these outcomes that didn't make sense was Wyatt/Taker. I was actually all for Taker winning as long as they somehow managed to make Wyatt come off as scary/superhuman in the process. They failed miserably. Especially that part where Taker sat up during the spider walk and Wyatt looked like he shit his pants. The opposite could have worked just as well in the moment and Wyatt could have at least taken the fact that he even even Taker was freaked out a little by him. The match was all about making Taker seem "back" at the expense of Wyatt and that was the ridiculous move. Despite his awesome promos, how long can you buy into it when the guy proves so often that he's all bark and no bite?
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:09 PM   #7
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I don't have time for a long-winded response at the moment but I will say this: I agree with you completely about the young guys going over vets when it's going to amount to them being the next BIG attraction. I am NOT a fan of guys like Fandango going over Chris Jericho all because he had a "fresh" gimmick and a little heat. If the WWE is willing to put in the time to make a meaningful storyline (Daniel Bryan last year) then yes by all means let them overcome the odds...But if you are doing it for a mid level push without steam behind it....Let the vet have the win.

And I was rooting for Big Show (first time ever I think) to win the battle royal. Happy to see him finally not be the butt of the WM joke.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:39 PM   #8
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When was the last significant time that we can think of where the up-and-comer went over the vet?
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
When was the last significant time that we can think of where the up-and-comer went over the vet?
Daniel Bryan at last years Mania, he went over 3.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:47 PM   #10
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Yeah, I guess that would be it. It doesn't look like they saw him as THE guy though, unless they're really about to make a big deal out of the Intercontinental championship again.
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:56 PM   #11
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A lot of the IWC "knows" how the way things "should" be booked. Look I can tell you, growing up veterans pretty much always went over, and I don't see why that should really change unless there is a specific reason...

Why hurt John Cena? He's the biggest draw you've got, you can still get Cena and Rusev over with a Rusev loss, or vice versa... the bottom line is that Cena is going to main event more than Rusev likely ever will so in that situation the right guy won.

I think that from the WM Card the biggest example of your question is the Battle Royal. And while I wanted Hideo Itami to go over and get a big victory... Big Show really needed the credibility. He's going to wrestle a top babyface on Raw every week, and sold as a "huge threat" to whomever he is up against, so giving him that credibility was fresh for me. He's a guy who should only get beat to put someone over, a lesser version of Brock. Hell even when Andre could barely walk he'd only do jobs for top top guys.
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:56 PM   #12
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Also if you think Rusev was hurt by losing to Cena clean, I just have to shake my head at you. He lost literally no steam.
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:58 PM   #13
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And the same applies to Big Show, to The Undertaker.

In Tipsters I predicted Bray as a last minute change (goddamn podcasts giving me ideas) thinking that WWE would go into WM 32 with a story that Taker is now on a losing streak and can he overcome. But I'm glad he won, Bray didn't need to win, that would have really fucked up the vibe of the show.
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Old 03-31-2015, 03:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
The only one of these outcomes that didn't make sense was Wyatt/Taker. I was actually all for Taker winning as long as they somehow managed to make Wyatt come off as scary/superhuman in the process. They failed miserably. Especially that part where Taker sat up during the spider walk and Wyatt looked like he shit his pants. The opposite could have worked just as well in the moment and Wyatt could have at least taken the fact that he even even Taker was freaked out a little by him. The match was all about making Taker seem "back" at the expense of Wyatt and that was the ridiculous move. Despite his awesome promos, how long can you buy into it when the guy proves so often that he's all bark and no bite?
This is a great post.
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Old 03-31-2015, 03:19 PM   #15
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Bray should have gotten what he wanted when Taker came for him. There should have been a part of Bray that was wildly amused. Especially if he was losing. He will be fine. He's now worked John Cena and The Undertaker at WrestleMania events. But he could be so much more right now.
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Old 03-31-2015, 05:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
However - in your opinion, when should an "up-and-coming star" go over an established vet?
Not at WrestleMania. Any other time someone needs to go over to get momentum or help becoming a star it is fine. You don't use the biggest stage of them all to help get a guy over. You use WrestleMania to show awesomeness and amazing matches. If a person is not a star by the time Mania comes around then there is no reason they should win their match in order to "help" make them a legit threat. That needs to be done the rest of the year.
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Old 03-31-2015, 05:44 PM   #17
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Heard a great idea by Wade Keller: Big Show should win the next 3-4 Andre the Giant Battle Royals. It'd make whomever does eliminate him a big deal.
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Old 03-31-2015, 05:46 PM   #18
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Mania can be used for a young guy to arrive, where the veteran does the job. In terms of this year, the only real match that had that kind of flavor was the main event, and I'd say they built up Reigns well even though he ended up taking the fall.

Bray losing is not that big a deal to me. The only 2 men in his entire run that have bested him are two of the biggest stars of the last 20 years. Hard to imagine taking both Cena and Taker on at Mania, only to fall short, being a career killer. How he lost to Taker can be argued, but the loss itself is not a huge deal, imo.
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Old 03-31-2015, 07:53 PM   #19
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Last year's Mania was basically the opposite with the majority of the winners being younger or rising star wrestlers. Had Cena lost, would have been a bigger "changing of the guard" type Mania.

Ideally the best time would be right when the rising or younger star needs it the most as a launch pad. Bret vs Austin and Bryan vs Triple H & Orton/Batista matches are two good Mania examples. Could argue Cena didn't need the win against Bray and Rusev but the way the feuds were built, him winning was the only real option possible.

On the flipside, can't just have the vet be lazily fed away or else it ends up like with Chris Jericho where those wins by Fandango and Bray did nothing to boost their careers.
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Old 03-31-2015, 08:39 PM   #20
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Always acceptable unless the guy getting the win is a twat. The wheel keeps turning.
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