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Old 06-02-2016, 10:43 AM   #1
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Ricochet VS Will Ospreay
So this match has been making quite a bit of noise, and i really don't know if it's been discussed here.
For those of you who haven't watched it, here it is:



Interesting well-articulated commentary here:
http://tjrwrestling.net/ricochet-vs-...y-kurt-zamora/

I respect the caliber and talent of both the wrestlers here, and some of the sequences really had me bewildered and amazed at just how they managed to think of it, and perform it. Excellent showmanship, and masterful execution.

It maybe due to old-school (or in my case, largely WWE) conditioning (a match tells a story), but the match felt like watching an arcade game. Button mashing, pulling off combos. I enjoyed Ospreay's selling (at least he made an attempt to sell), and to me, it gave the whole thing a minor sense of realism (or believability, if that is a word).

Both the match and the article raise valid questions, most of which have been discussed to death at various times, but continue to make for interesting opinion.

1. Is this the future? 5 years down the line, will this style of wrestling become the default style, at least for 'big matches'?
2. Will storytelling / ring psychology take a backseat in favour of high-spots?
3. I feel that this arcade game scenario definitely feels like a product of the time we live in, what with our inability to enjoy depth, and settle instead for the next click, the next swipe, the next attention grab. Is this a valid observation? Hence, will this style rise in popularity?

What's your take?
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:55 AM   #2
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I like it.

Not all wrestling has to be the same. Both wrestlers are really good.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:52 AM   #3
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Both would fall to The Roman Empire!
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Old 06-02-2016, 12:59 PM   #4
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Sweet ass match...

People "shitting on" this match for some reason all seem to be dumb nerds . . .
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:12 PM   #5
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I liked it, I know Vader didn't . The crowd seemed to enjoy it so that's all that really matters. First time seeing Ospreay and I was impressed.
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:19 PM   #6
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This is ok but it's no CHW
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:23 PM   #7
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Perfect match for the setting/environment etc.Couldn't ask for more or less. The "psychology" worked in the sense that these two were performing. This match would be well received in the wwe but a selfish match to work in that environment because it'd make everyone who tells a whole different story look weak. But it's not wwe and these guys could do what they do.
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:17 PM   #8
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I've heard the same thing from several VERY decorated veterans in this business, and it applied to this, "Superkick parties", even stuff like the Cobra and Heart Punch. If you (as a performer) can get people behind it, and get them to "believe it", then there's nothing wrong with it.
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:49 PM   #9
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Absolutely incredible athletes. Some amazingly innovative spots and pretty much everything was spot-on.

Personally though, after about ten minutes I was pretty bored. I was still impressed by everything they did, but I was just kinda watching it not getting as excited anymore. I guess my approach is a "less-is-more" kinda thing. It could easily have been that I always find watching matches without commentary makes it seem a bit flat to me.

Still, both guys did a fantastic job. Some of the internet stuff I've read of this being "match of the year" seems a bit of a stretch though.
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Old 06-02-2016, 04:10 PM   #10
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There just comes a point where the constant no selling of incredible moves cheapens pro wrestling and it this match personifies that. The constant knapping the thigh for every strike, no selling crazy moves... this match is just choreography. Very very VERY good choreography, but as a pro wrestling match it is not for me. I don't agree with Vader's tactic but I do agree with his sentiment. I also agree with Regal, if this is a style of wrestling they did that style to perfection.
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Old 06-02-2016, 04:12 PM   #11
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Like it or not it is an iconic match. This is groundbreaking in the way that Liger/Wild Pegasus was from BOTSJ in 94.
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:36 PM   #12
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I'd go with Fragile X on this. I was into the whole thing. Loved how there was no commentary, and how you can hear them cussing one another out. Loved how it was WAY over the top. The crowd fucking went apeshit for all of it. They didn't botch a single thing.

I bet you if you want these guys to come and work "WWE" style and slow it down, they could at the very least pick up the style. This was just the style of match they were working, and they adapted and pretty much INVENTED their own badass video game style. Honestly, felt like I was watching streetfighter. which is more than I can say for a lot of WWE matches. Not to say I like this better than WWF or WWE or WCW or whatever, just you can't take away because it was acrobatic lol
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:38 PM   #13
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I agree, when's the last time their was this much talk about a NJPW match in America that wasn't about Bullet Club. Vader actually did more good for the match in critiquing it.
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:53 PM   #14
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Liked it a lot.

The extra flippy stuff at the start might have been a bit silly but it did its job in getting the crowd active for the match.
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Old 06-02-2016, 06:22 PM   #15
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I absolutely hate this shit
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Old 06-02-2016, 07:03 PM   #16
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It's fun and all (not fun enough for me to watch it the whole way through, though), but what is so special about this match?
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Old 06-02-2016, 07:11 PM   #17
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Vader made some comments on Twitter saying it wasn't pro wrestling and shit and it blew up after that.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:23 PM   #18
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After getting dropped on his head in two (what should be finishing) moves, there is a point where Ricochet is on his knees and point blank kicked in the head twice, and then as Ospreay hits the ropes he immediately bounds up for a reversal.

I mean, he was kicked directly in the head twice and completely no-sold it.

Amazing, amazing choreography, and fun to watch in short doses, but you can only watch a guy no-sell getting blunt force attacks to the head so many times before it's lost it's impact.

Oh, and then he ends up jobbing to a weird flying RKO kinda move. Figures.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
I absolutely hate this shit
As is your perogative, and I understand why you do, but you can't deny athletically what those motherfuckers did. You just don't like the crossfit jesus's doing flips and it makes sense, that's not the pro wrestling you grew up with.

But this is a different avenue of wrestling, and yes... it will be loved by the neckbeards such as myself B-)
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Old 06-03-2016, 03:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammsteinmad View Post
After getting dropped on his head in two (what should be finishing) moves, there is a point where Ricochet is on his knees and point blank kicked in the head twice, and then as Ospreay hits the ropes he immediately bounds up for a reversal.

I mean, he was kicked directly in the head twice and completely no-sold it.

Amazing, amazing choreography, and fun to watch in short doses, but you can only watch a guy no-sell getting blunt force attacks to the head so many times before it's lost it's impact.

Oh, and then he ends up jobbing to a weird flying RKO kinda move. Figures.
The getting up and attacking right after taking a big move has been in almost every big japanese match since the 80's. Fighting Spirit and all that. It's just a part of the style over there.
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Old 06-03-2016, 03:50 AM   #21
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Lots of middle aged women in the audience.
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Old 06-03-2016, 03:52 AM   #22
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Honestly though, the fact that this is catching so much flak is stupid. It's bestof the super juniors for fucks sake. What do they expect? Bear hugs and gorilla presses for 20 minutes?
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Old 06-03-2016, 08:28 AM   #23
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lol well said Figgy
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Old 06-03-2016, 08:21 PM   #24
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Selling anything?
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Old 06-03-2016, 08:40 PM   #25
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I'm going to give my play-by-play thoughts:

* I've heard a lot about Ricochet's "charisma." He shows it on his face here. Gives off the vibe he is "cool."

* Will Ospreay looks a lot better than I thought he did in Progress when I checked out their free episode. He kind of reminds me of early clips of Bryan Danielson in that "Monster" video. Long tights look better on him than trunks.

* The flips have been fine so far, but the double handspring spot was fucking shit.

* Will Ospreay's selling chops alright. I bet that's about to change though...

* Ospreay looks confused that he can't beat Ricochet with a European uppercut.

* Ospreay turns his back on Ricochet in the corner to pump up the crowd and charge into Ricochet without looking. He's got a bright future in WWE.

* Ospreay can take a DDT like Van Dam, but he forgot to lay down in the ring.

* Cool weird corkscrew plancha thing by Ricochet. Barely hit Ospreay. That he chooses to sell though.

* I actually like Ricochet as an arrogant heel. I can buy him showing off his elaborate range of moves because he constantly overestimates his opponenets because he's so confident in his abilities in his weight class. If there was a WCW around, he'd make a FANTASTIC Cruiserweight Champion.

Actually, I'm done. Can't be fucked watching this whole thing.
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Old 06-03-2016, 08:46 PM   #26
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I get that people think this stuff is "cool," but I just can't get into it anymore. I would have been more of a mark for it ten years ago, but now I appreciate guys that I know can do more but wisely hold back -- whether it be for their bodies or for the sake of story. Heath Slater is a better worker than these two are right now in their careers.

Yeah, it's the Best of the Super Juniors tournament, but I think you can have a good junior match with something resembling a story. People have tried to project one onto this match, but it honestly got boring watching Ricochet look into the crowd for claps. I haven't seen half of this, but I can already tell you it's not a five-star match. Fuck's sake.
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Old 06-03-2016, 09:05 PM   #27
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In no way was match of the year or a five star match. There are bits and pieces to a story there but overall it's just two evenly matched opponents putting on a show. I don't have a big problem with the selling as it was similar to ROH in that matter but the finish was a little flat after every thing they had done already. I wasn't invested in whoever won which goes back to the story being in pieces. I did enjoy it though and thought they put a good show and was impressed by Ospreay.
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Old 06-03-2016, 09:19 PM   #28
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That seems a fair response.
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Old 06-03-2016, 09:22 PM   #29
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I heard amazing things about an EVOLVE show a few months ago. I paid for it, checked it out...and couldn't finish it. Caleb Konley beat this guy that reminded me of Trevor from GTA -- who actually got a whole ton of offense in. The guy could work, but it was just...wrong.

Then someone else got in there and did their best to have a four-star match. Then someone else did the same thing. Then Rich Swann did something with someone else and there were piledrivers on the apron. It was exhausting trying to invest in that shit. I turned it off and never got to the main event.

You have to have some sort of digestible reality and a fucking build to your card. I know Ricochet and Ospreay were the main event of that show, but you see guys on the indies doing this every chance they get. Fuck me.
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Old 06-04-2016, 01:40 PM   #30
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I was done after the double flip thing and they paused and the fans erupted like something happened.

I think I got into 11 minutes before turning it off though.

Standoff for applause is so 20 years ago. Maybe it's warranted later in a match but not at the start. You haven't done anything yet.
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Old 06-04-2016, 08:10 PM   #31
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Oh so that's the case because you decided it, right Damo?
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Old 06-04-2016, 08:30 PM   #32
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At the end of the day, these guys are over as fuck in their niche world and got the desired reaction, hype and buzz they wanted from their match. Max effort, max result. I get if it's not someone's cup of tea, but saying "Omg I didn't even watch the whole thing buncha fagggggz " is kind of closed minded.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:01 PM   #33
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While I wouldn't go as far as to say that this shouldn't exist, after all, people are free to perform and enjoy whatever they wish, for me, it is not wrestling.

Wrestling has psychology, selling and sucks you in, making you believe it's real. It's an art form.

I'll take soccer as an example. While you can change some aspects of the game, like the number of players, the tactics, the style etc...and still maintain the game as it is, there are certain aspects, that if you changed them, would mean you weren't playing soccer anymore. If there were no goals, for example, it wouldn't be soccer.

I feel like this goes a step beyond. When you remove the believability, the selling, the psychology, you don't just adapt wrestling (like tactics, style or even player numbers), you aren't wrestling anymore. You have removed the goal. This is choreography, closer to Cirque do Soleil than wrestling for me.

For me, psychology, selling and the ability to invest in something that seems real, suspending disbelief...that is the goal of wrestling. Take those things away, and you don't have wrestling anymore.

It might be an entertaining performance, but it isn't wrestling.
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Old 06-04-2016, 11:41 PM   #34
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The choreographed floppy stuff at the beginning was anoying because they're supposed to be fighting each other but you know they had to rehearse that to get the timing right.

Of course I know they rehearse everything but it shouldn't be obvious like that

Other than that it was an entertaining 20 min match that didn't have any major lulls/downtime.
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Old 06-05-2016, 08:17 AM   #35
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I can appreciate it for the athletic display that it was, but I'll also criticise the way it was put together; a main event match should build to a crescendo where as this had probably 5 finishing sequences, and then a relatively underwhelming finish. That said, there's plenty of WWE matches that do the same.
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:23 AM   #36
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My only beef with the match was the kicks to the back. They just look stupid and lazy. Other than that, I thought it was quite scintillating
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:37 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
At the end of the day, these guys are over as fuck in their niche world and got the desired reaction, hype and buzz they wanted from their match. Max effort, max result. I get if it's not someone's cup of tea, but saying "Omg I didn't even watch the whole thing buncha fagggggz " is kind of closed minded.
To be fair, it is the job of the guys to draw you in. They've done that for a lot of people, and the crowd there was ready for it, but that doesn't mean you have to like it.
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Old 06-05-2016, 08:09 PM   #38
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oh for sure people don't have to like it. But to discredit them is kind of weird.
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Old 06-05-2016, 08:31 PM   #39
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I don't think anyone would discredit their athleticism. Most of what I've seen is on them not engaging people with any sort of story.
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Old 06-05-2016, 08:31 PM   #40
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I would hope no one discredits their athleticism, ha.
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