DISCUSSION: Invasion II (Raw vs. SD), Vince Russo's "philosophy", etc.

[Heyman]

Before I start.................FINALLY.....THE ARTIST..............HAS COME *BACK* TO TEEE PEEEE DUBYA!!!!!!!!!!!!



DISCUSSION: Invasion II (Raw vs. SD), Vince Russo's "philosophy", etc.

It's been over 2 and a half years since we saw the end of the original INVASION. It has been almost 2 and a half years since we saw the ROSTER SPLIT go into place.

Do you think the WWE should have another Invasion angle? (Smackdown vs. Raw).


Here are my reasons:
[*]Fan Interest. Smackdown is sucking dick right now. Raw hasn't exactly been top notch either.
[*]No bias (atleast I think?). The last time we saw an 'invasion', the bookers were very biased towards the WWF (and made them look 'head over heels' better than the alliance). This time around? Perhaps 'both sides' can be made to look equal.....although there is a risk that the Smackdown wrestlers could be made to look inferior.
[*]Once and for all, end the FAILURE of the Roster Split (more on this later).



Does Vince's Russo's "philosophy" of "Crash TV" actually work?

In an article from the year 2000 (I'll paraphrase his exact quotes at a later date if neccessary), Vince Russo gave the following insight.

-He claimed that while HE enjoyed long 20-25 minute matches (between two superb technical wrestlers), he also realized that most marks do NOT. Therefore - Vince Russo booked matches in such a way, that matches would be MUCH shorter. Russo argued that today's fans WANT to see a quicker finish, and are FAR more interested in the STORYLINE behind matches than the match itself.

-From a personal standpoint? I would have to agree with Russo on this. Don't get me wrong - I don't totally agree with EVERYTHING that Vince Russo says. I just agree with him on this particular philosophy.


Back in the year 2000, it seemed like the WWE was doing everything right.


a) Matches were shorter

b) More backstage skits

c) The first and last segments of each show almost ALWAYS dealt with the 'main event storyline' (or whichever the "main" storyline was).

d) There were never any commerical breaks during matches.......which in today's current era, has to be one of the most ANNOYING things of all-time. Seriously - last Monday.....we saw TWO commerical breaks during the Benoit/Kane match! Give me a break!

e) Longer matches were saved for PPV's, or occasional main-event matches on TV (the last 15-20 minutes of Raw or Smackdown).

f) There was almost ALWAYS some form of storyline progression. This was one of the MOST IMPORTANT things back then. Each show, a fan could expect some form of development to occur. Nowadays? A fan could watch 2 shows in a row and see MINIMAL storyline development. This was another one of Vince's Russo's 'philosophies' by the way. Take the expected ending.....and give it a completely new twist to throw off the fans. Of course - Russo was a bit too EXTREME in this philosophy (in my opinion), but he was on the right track.


g) Save the longer matches for the main-eventers (or for guys who are WAY over with the fans). Back then - we never saw LONG matches between two guys who weren't main-eventers (or that the fans didn't really care THAT much about). Today? The WWE regularly has longer matches.....even for people that are BORING! How many times within the past month have we seen LOO-ONG tag matches between combinations of Orton/Flair/Batista verses combinations of Jericho, Edge, and Benoit?


The WWE does NOT create main-event superstars. Ultimately -the fans are the ones who create main-event superstars.

Sadly enough - I'm not sure if the WWE realizes this. Take a look at Edge and Shelton Benjamin for instance. Despite getting victories (or atleast being made to look good) over the likes of Triple H and Randy Orton, Benjamin was still getting lukewarm pops at best.

Despite Edge being made to look 5x more superior than Chris Jericho (when they've tagged together recently), Jericho has been the one who has garnered the bigger face pops.



Here are a few predictions of mine:

1) Unless Edge, Shelton Benjamin, and even Chris Benoit get better gimmicks (or something interesting ADDED to the their current gimmicks), neither men will progress beyond the point they are at. Edge and Benjamin will NEVER be accepted as main-eventers, while Benoit will continue to receive lukewarm face pops (and will still be perceived as a 'transitional' 'paper' champ).

2) Guys like John Cena, Eddie Guerrero, Brock Lesnar, and Kurt Angle would be just as 'over' today, even if the roster split had not gone into place.

I think this is the biggest thing that the WWE has to realize.

Whether you give someone 3 minutes or 10 minutes of TV time, it intially makes no difference. If the fans like the gimmick, they will respond accordingly. If the fans LIKE the gimmick, the bookers will be inclined to allot more television time NATURALLY!

In other words - give Edge, Shelton Benjamin, and Batista alll the TV time if you want, but if the fans don't CARE about them (as much as the bookers want them to), then the 'extra' TV time does NOTHING (other than being counter productive).



Which is why I want the Roster Split to end

It's obvious when you think about it. Here's what I'd like to see.


-Sometime after Summerslam, Smackdown starts invading Raw (and then vice-versa). The culmination of this "invasion" will take place at Wrestlemania (where the US/IC title, tag team titles, and World titles will be unified).

-After Wrestlemania, the rosters get unified. The WWE downsizes their roster by atleast 30% (so guys like Pulumbo, A-Train, Test, Hardcore Holly, Rikishi, Scotty 2 Hotty, Billy Gunn, and other essentially USELESS wrestlers to the WWE take a hike). Basically - any wrestler who has no UPSIDE (i.e. has had past 'failed' pushes or genuinely has no potential to draw for the company) should be canned.

-With a depth pool consisting of Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, John Cena, Mordecai, Undertaker, John Bradshaw Layfield, RVD, Kane, Rey Mysterio, Kurt Angle (if he gets cleared), and Brock Lesnar (if he returns) on almost EVERY show, there is NO FREAKIN' WAY that the WWE should EVER have a "boring" show.

Elaborating on my last point - "how can you fit these guys all on to TV?" you may ask?

Simple:

1) Cut back the time alloted to each match (as I stated earlier)

2) More backstage skits

3) I still advocate bringing back the Hardcore 24/7 belt. Not only does it get more people TV time, but it APPEALS to the marks. Remember - most fans are MARKS.....not smarks.

And more importantly - the first and last segments should almost ALWAYS go to the main-event (or main) storyline.


The fans will always cheer (or boo) a good gimmick. It should simply be the bookers goal to create good gimmicks, and push wrestlers according to crowd response. Nothing more, nothing less. Longer matches should be saved for PPV's. The TV shows should mainly focus on storyline build up (with the occasional "long" match between wrestlers at the end of shows).

[Splaya]

I've said for months to get rid of the Roster Split. Mainly because people only watch one show to see certain people. It also would make a big difference if they could make SD live instead of taped. I read the spoilers every week and it makes me not want to watch my TV. But if it were Live every week, similar to what Raw is, then I'm sure I would watch SD a hell of a lot more. I mean shit, RVD used to be my 3rd fav wrestler (2nd to Michaels and Jericho) and I saw him for the first time on SD since he got "traded". And you know why. Because I read the spoilers, see what kind of shit is on before or after his match, and then say fuck it altogether. I think by ending the roster split, the WWE can reobatain those 5.0+ ratings they used to get even without other competition. Until then they will be 4.0 and below.

[Mr. JL]

I 100% AGREE with you Heyman!

[The Naitch]

Problem is it costs alot of money to have a show air live

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The Playa I've said for months to get rid of the Roster Split. Mainly because people only watch one show to see certain people. It also would make a big difference if they could make SD live instead of taped. I read the spoilers every week and it makes me not want to watch my TV. But if it were Live every week, similar to what Raw is, then I'm sure I would watch SD a hell of a lot more. I mean shit, RVD used to be my 3rd fav wrestler (2nd to Michaels and Jericho) and I saw him for the first time on SD since he got "traded". And you know why. Because I read the spoilers, see what kind of shit is on before or after his match, and then say fuck it altogether. I think by ending the roster split, the WWE can reobatain those 5.0+ ratings they used to get even without other competition. Until then they will be 4.0 and below.

Agreed.

I think one problem that the WWE has right now, is that they are not spending enough time on gimmick creation/storyline development.

At the last Smackdown PPV for instance, WHY ON EARTH was Mordecai feuding with Hardcore Holly? (while Kenzo Suzuki was feuding with Billy Gunn). Granted - Suzuki and Mordecai have decent enough gimmicks to capture the interests of the fans (for now), but there was no build up fior the feud!

Back in the day - a LOT of time was spent on building rivalries. Jericho/Benoit, Rock/HHH, Austin/Vince, Austin/Taker, Shamrock/Owen Hart, Austin/Corporation, etc.,etc.

While we HAVE seen Triple H/HBK and Angle/Lesnar within the last few years, I still think a LOT leaves to be desired in terms of rivalries.


Lastly - I think a MAJOR problem with the WWE right now is that they are not giving the fans what they want. Why are guys like Jericho and RVD being misused? Why are the WWE continuosly using guys like Renee Dupree, Batista, Edge, etc. in LONG matches? (when NONE of these guys are 'over' enough to warrant such a large amount of TV time).

[Jeremy Christian]

Yeah, before I continue, I'd just like to say that I'm back from a very well deserved vacation. So anyway...

I like the ideas. Very good read as far as I'm concerned. Good idea to end the Invasion angle at Wrestlemania and NOT Survivor Series.

Ending the roster split would be great, but if you don't fuck the bosses daughter or join his "Kiss My Ass" Club, then you won't get what you want.

Fact is, McMahon really cannot run the company anymore. Ever since WCW went bye-bye, WWE has been going down the hole, and has been dependant upon former WCW talent to draw people in (Rey Mysterio and Bill Goldberg). The WWE should instead, end the roster split, fire the entire creative staff and start hiring the smarks who know what the hell fans want, and come up with something fresh. And get rid of the "Grandma's Soap Opera" feel that it has too it, where we have somebody killed every month. Utilize the special gimmick matches, such as Hell in a Cell. How long has it been since someone has actually gotten on top of that thing? As for the Elimination Chamber, have it be a "Survivor Series Only" match. Having it be exclusive would probably add some buys to the PPV. Have the Casket Match and the Buried Alive Match be Undertaker exclusive for Judgement Day, as the corellation of show-match-person gimmicks would probably up the show.

I feel that the recent slump in PPV buyrates is because of the roster split and the "Brand Only PPV." People who regularly watch a show will watch the PPV, unless it's Smackdown (I don't have cable, I get just Smackdown and The Bottom Line). They decreased the number of people watching a show when they decided that they would have a different brand with a different show for a different month. F that. Bring the shows back together, and increase the alloted time to put more matches in.

I would rant more, but I'm tired now. I have to go play EWR. Or TEW. Either one is fine for me...

Glad you're back Heyman : Missed the Discussions.


Okay, First let me just say that I have been a fan of the roster split for a while now, mostly because I love the way the two brands interact with each other on the four major PPV's of the year. It was cool seeing Lesner and Goldberg interact, it was cool seeing Benoit and Guerrero interact. Those interactions really meant something and you felt like the two brands were really at war.

Also, I think the roster split let Eddie Guerrero and Benoit have a chance at winning the big one, which they did. So in that sense, it was a + to have a split.

But, I think you're right in it's time to end this shit. It's really not worth it anymore. I mean, when you have guys like Holly AND Gunn wrestling in singles matches on PPV's, you have to ask yourself, what is going on here? I think the WWE will benefit from reuniting the rosters again because they can get rid of a lot guys and save some money. They don't really need half of their roster. Maybe even get rid of Smackdown all together and go back to just Raw. I think less wrestling right now would be better for the product. You don't need to give the viewer a ton of wrestling each week when the ratings are sliding like they have been. Maybe even lower the PPV's a year too. Something has got to change.

So, yes, I do think they should eliminate the split. Put the guys on TV that the fans care about and eliminate everyone else. You'll have a show filled with the Benoit, Guerrero, HHH, Eugene, Cena, Flair, Orton, some tag teams, and a couple of others. This won't make fans flip the channel because you have Harcore Holly wresling Charlie Haas or Tori wresling Sable. The Hardcore Title will be ok to bring back because it gives something for all those other guys to do as well. You can still have Crusierweights on the show too. But, I really think they need to give us less wrestling and go back to how it was in the old days.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Christian Yeah, before I continue, I'd just like to say that I'm back from a very well deserved vacation. So anyway...

I like the ideas. Very good read as far as I'm concerned. Good idea to end the Invasion angle at Wrestlemania and NOT Survivor Series.

You know what I think would be interesting? Eddie Guerrero vs. Chris Benoit for the unified world title. Here's what would be the twist. Although Guerrero and Benoit are still friends with one another (who respect one another greatly), they are still in-between the whole Raw/Smackdown feud.

Leading up to this match, a lot of Smackdown guys would be backing up Guerrero (and pumping him up), while Benoit would receive that same level of support from his 'Raw' teammates.

Basically - it would be two friends, who are on the "opposite sides of the fence" so to speak.

I think it could be interesting.......not to mention, a great match.

start hiring the smarks who know what the hell fans want,

This could also be a problem. A lot of smarks do NOT know (or atleast sympathize) with what most marks want. Perhaps if someone from tpww was made head booker, the following could occur.........

-Chris Benoit gets a long title reign, with Benjamin, Shawn Michaels, and Chris Jericho as his main opposition.

-Triple H gets taken off TV (or gets a mediocre role on TV).

-Eugene loses his current gimmick

-Much less focus on sports-entertainment.

A lot of people on HERE might appreciate something like that, but would the marks?

I feel that the recent slump in PPV buyrates is because of the roster split and the "Brand Only PPV." People who regularly watch a show will watch the PPV, unless it's Smackdown (I don't have cable, I get just Smackdown and The Bottom Line). They decreased the number of people watching a show when they decided that they would have a different brand with a different show for a different month. F that. Bring the shows back together, and increase the alloted time to put more matches in.

I couldn't agree anymore.

The WWE has to realize that there are NO ADVANTAGES from the roster split.

Yes - new stars were created during the roster split, but these same stars would've been created without the split (due to the awesomeness of the gimmick).

Even though more guys became WWE champion during this time, ratings were not affected. Had their been a UNIFIED roster however (in which a new champ was crowned), perhaps things would've been different (since being made 'champ' would've meant more).

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon [b][COLOR=RoyalBlue]Glad you're back Heyman : Missed the Discussions.

What the heck happened to the Forum Battle War? Or Team Legend Killer for that matter?

p.s. Did we win?

Okay, First let me just say that I have been a fan of the roster split for a while now, mostly because I love the way the two brands interact with each other on the four major PPV's of the year.

True, but why not have that 'quality' on every PPV? Also - while it's great to have that 'interaction' every 4 months, what about the other PPV's? A lot of people don't get both Raw and Smackdown (only one or the other). With exclusive brand PPV's, you give a lot of people NO REASON to order the exclusive PPV.

It was cool seeing Lesner and Goldberg interact, it was cool seeing Benoit and Guerrero interact. Those interactions really meant something and you felt like the two brands were really at war.

Right after the February PPV (this past Februrary), I would have built both shows around the Goldberg/Lesnar feud (had the two men still been within the company). Furthermore - I would've had them be the 'main-event'. Don't get me wrong - Guerrero/Angle was great, but I genuinely feel that Lesnar/Goldberg would've been FAR more marketable. I also would've made Lesnar/Goldberg do a heel/face switch (in which Lesnar went over as champ as well). Perhaps this would have convinced Lesnar to stay.

Also, I think the roster split let Eddie Guerrero and Benoit have a chance at winning the big one, which they did. So in that sense, it was a + to have a split.

True, but neither one of them have really drawn in numbers......so what's the point? Granted - Benoit hasn't had the proper TV time while Smackdown lost Angle and Lesnar, but still........

-It's not like Benoit gets Austin or Rock like pops to warrant getting more TV time
-Do the fans really see Eddie Guerrero as an 'extraordinary' figure as they do The Rock, Austin, Hogan, or Lesnar?

But, I think you're right in it's time to end this shit. It's really not worth it anymore. I mean, when you have guys like Holly AND Gunn wrestling in singles matches on PPV's, you have to ask yourself, what is going on here? I think the WWE will benefit from reuniting the rosters again because they can get rid of a lot guys and save some money. They don't really need half of their roster. Maybe even get rid of Smackdown all together and go back to just Raw. I think less wrestling right now would be better for the product. You don't need to give the viewer a ton of wrestling each week when the ratings are sliding like they have been. Maybe even lower the PPV's a year too. Something has got to change. So, yes, I do think they should eliminate the split. Put the guys on TV that the fans care about and eliminate everyone else. You'll have a show filled with the Benoit, Guerrero, HHH, Eugene, Cena, Flair, Orton, some tag teams, and a couple of others. This won't make fans flip the channel because you have Harcore Holly wresling Charlie Haas or Tori wresling Sable. The Hardcore Title will be ok to bring back because it gives something for all those other guys to do as well. You can still have Crusierweights on the show too. But, I really think they need to give us less wrestling and go back to how it was in the old days.

Agreed.

It's just common sense.

If the wheel ain't broke, why fix it?

Things were perfect in 2000 (or pretty damned close to it).

While The Rock and Triple H were the cornerstones of the show that year, it's not like the fans didn't care about Angle and Jericho (who clearly played second fiddle to The Rock and Triple H). Angle and Jericho could have easily have taken over their spots in due time.........with proper booking and with no roster split.

Okay, now let's say you combined the rosters again and you have everyone on Raw. Here's the type of show you're looking at.

Ortob/Cena: IC Title Feud.
Christain, RVD, Jericho, Edge, Bradshaw, Dupree, Haas, Mordecai, Benjamin etc.. all contenders for the IC Title or just below it. Let them all have their feuds

Tag Teams: See, here's where a big + can come in with combined rosters. First, I would make a Top Heel Tag Team out of two good midcard OR UPPERCARD wrestlers. Maybe Hardy/Christian, Maybe HBK/Jericho(this would fk'n own) Maybe Angle/Benoit., Maybe Kane/Matt Hardy (this is in you're suggesstion about Hardy joining Kane I just read). I don't know, but you need a super team like this. And then you have all the other teams that are together now.


Eddie/Benoit/Angle/HBK/Taker/ HHH are all the guys going for the World Title, so you have some #1 contender feuds and then you have the Champ and the #1 Contender on the show doing interviews, but not fighting/[

Then you have you're Crusierweight matches and you're Hardcore matches. You also have some women's matches too. Get rid of the shitty women wrestlers though and just make them managers.

That's a hell of a show you can put on. You can do a lot of stuff with just these select guys.

Get rid off:
Holly
Gunn
Kenzo
Rico(he's had his run)
Jackie
Tori
Kidman (unless in a tag team)
Rosey
ETC........I can't think right now/COLOR]


So they're you have it. Sounds good to me. Also, you might be able to get HHH out of that top heel spot and put someone else in there with this (slight chance though)

And Heyman, to answer you're reply to my Benoit Guerrero Discussion in my last post, I think the fans really care about Guerrero and I would go with him as the top babyface in the company to feud with HHH if the rosters were combines. But, it was just nice to see Benoit and Guerrero get the World Titles, because they more then deserves it.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Okay, now let's say you combined the rosters again and you have everyone on Raw. Here's the type of show you're looking at. Ortob/Cena: IC Title Feud. Christain, RVD, Jericho, Edge, Bradshaw, Dupree, Haas, Mordecai, Benjamin etc.. all contenders for the IC Title or just below it. Let them all have their feuds.

Orton/Cena = :drool. That could definitely be the just as heated as The Rock/Triple H from 1998 (or Jericho/Benoit from 2000).

Tag Teams: See, here's where a big + can come in with combined rosters. First, I would make a Top Heel Tag Team out of two good midcard OR UPPERCARD wrestlers. Maybe Hardy/Christian, Maybe HBK/Jericho(this would fk'n own) Maybe Angle/Benoit., Maybe Kane/Matt Hardy (this is in you're suggesstion about Hardy joining Kane I just read). I don't know, but you need a super team like this. And then you have all the other teams that are together now.

Sounds good. I think it would be nice to see Edge/Christian get back together. Ditto for Benjamin and Hass.

Eddie/Benoit/Angle/HBK/Taker/ HHH are all the guys going for the World Title, so you have some #1 contender feuds and then you have the Champ and the #1 Contender on the show doing interviews, but not fighting/

I'd keep Taker as a "main-event" guy, but not a guy who will actually win the title (kind of like what he's been doing since 2000 for the most part). If Angle can't wrestle full-time anymore, then I'd use him to put guys over.

Then you have you're Crusierweight matches and you're Hardcore matches. You also have some women's matches too. Get rid of the shitty women wrestlers though and just make them managers.

Agreed with this. I'd put most of the women's matches on Heat. Unless the WWE REALLY put an effort into their CW division, then I'd relegate them to velocity (for the most part) as well.

That's a hell of a show you can put on. You can do a lot of stuff with just these select guys. Get rid off: Holly Gunn Kenzo Rico(he's had his run) Jackie Tori Kidman (unless in a tag team) Rosey ETC........I can't think right now

I'd keep Kenzo for right now. Remember - he has POTENTIAL within the fans' eyes (he's still a new guy with a decent gimmick, and hasn't been pushed yet). The guy still has room to grow.

So they're you have it. Sounds good to me. Also, you might be able to get HHH out of that top heel spot and put someone else in there with this (slight chance though) And Heyman, to answer you're reply to my Benoit Guerrero Discussion in my last post, I think the fans really care about Guerrero and I would go with him as the top babyface in the company to feud with HHH if the rosters were combines. But, it was just nice to see Benoit and Guerrero get the World Titles, because they more then deserves it.

Personally? I don't think Guerrero is that great as a baby face world champ. I don't like this more 'serious' and 'emotional' side of Eddie (where the WWE tries to get the fans to sympathize with Eddie past).

In my view, Eddie was getting much better heal heat (and face pops) when he was 'less serious' and clowned around much more often.


In my 'perfect' world, I'd have one of the following:


a) John Cena becomes a HEEL World champion in about 9-10 months or so (with a unified roster).

b) Eddie Guerrero becomes a HEEL World Champion with a unified roster (with Chavo, Rey Mysterio, and another Latino guy backing him up to form a heel Latino stable).


A face Rock verses any two of these guys would be damn entertaining.

[Transplant]

I Strongly agree with more matches with less time.

Heres a basic phone convo I'll have with someone (eg, girlfriend (if i have one))

Them: What you watching
Me: RAW
Them: Oh. Whose wrestling?
Me: Edge and Batista
Them: OK.
Me: Yeh Its Gay.

20 mins later

Them: You still watching wrestling?
Me: Yeah
Them: Ok, whose fighting now
Me: Still Edge and Batista
Them: STILL?!

Now that was one of real bad stories I can tell (I suck at storytelling), but you get the drift....

right?

[The CyNick]

I also missed Heyman, there's nothing to "discuss" without you, so good to have ya back.

Anyway, here's my two cents (maybe three) on some of the issues:

#1 Russo
Nobody should ever say Russo was good at booking. In the WWE he got credit for the boom period, but it wasn't him. McMahon always booked all the stuff on top and thats what was bringing in the people. Yeah Russo might have had a good idea from time to time, but as a booker he sucked. For proof, watch WCW when he was in charge, as I recall he was resposible for bringing their monthly PPV buys to the 50,000 and less mark. So no, we shouldn't be looking to his ideas for turning things around.

Roster Split
I was also one of those people who liked the roster split, and in fact I still like the concept. However, its become very obvious from the numbers that the roster split cannot continue as is. SD house shows are being cancelled left, right and centre. The 3 PPVs in 6 weeks could very well kill the WWE's PPV business, unless Summerslam can turn it around (which I dont think it will), and even TV tapings are no longer a huge draw. Titles mean nothing, and I think the two brand concept is just causing more confusions than anything. I would support the idea of ending the brand split, culminating with title unification matches at Mania.

The only benefit of the split is that it increases the number of overseas dates they can do. And if you know anything about the WWE's financials, the overseas house shows are the only non-televised events that are doing any real money. And the fact that they are bringing TV tapings to England and the Pacific Rim tells me that even that part of the business must be getting soft.

I know they are dead set on keeping the brand split going, but I agree that its time to get rid of it. They can still run two house shows per night if they decide to (run "A" and "B" shows), but I think for the sake of the TV and the PPVs, its time to kill the concept. The bottom line is that they just dont have the horses to carry two brands. I mean even on RAw which is considered the far superior brand in terms of talent, does anyone really care about Vengeance which is a week away? I know I dont, and I'm sure the buiyrate will reflect that.

The problem with ending the split is that you can kiss the idea of a guy like Chris Benoit winning the World Title goodbye. Triple H will ALWAYS be on top, no matter what, HBK will always be on top, as will Taker. Thats the top 3 spots, and they wont go away until they die or retire (which I wouldn't count on happening anytime soon for any of those guys). Then you have Angle, who will also be guaranteed a top spot, if he's healthy. That only leaves maybe 2 more top level spots for Eddie, Benoit, Orton, Cena, Edge, Jericho and anyone else who gets hot. Out of those guys, I think Eddie has the inside track followed by Cena and Orton. Jericho and Benoit are out in the cold.

The point is you'll get staleness on top. You'll get HHH vs Taker at Summerslam, then HHH vs HBK at Unforgiven, followed by the rematch at No Mercy, followed by the "We're serious this is the last time were gonna wrestle" match at Survivor Series. And on and on it would go.

The other problem is burnout. As we've seen in the past when you have a headliner on two times per week, they get boring fast and they also run out of opponents very quickly. Either that or you get the same 4 or 6 guys in tags or 6-man tags every show. Again, that will get boring after a while.

Now, you 'could' argue, yeah but if you rotate guys and push new guys..... Well guess what kids? That aint gonna happen. This is the WWE circa 2K4, they dont push new talent, they keep the same guys on top because those are the only guys who know how to work. So now instead of having the HHH-effect only on RAW and affecting those guys, now nobody on SD will be able to get over either. Sad but true, oh so very true.

So I think they loose either way. But from a business standpoint, I think its clear the split isn't working, they dont have the talent to stock two rosters, so they should elminiate it. I mean if people start to see PPVs as largely missable, well then people will miss most of them. And thats the WWE's biggest revenue stream. Yeah no new stars will be created, but new stars cant be created either when nobody is watching the shows, so its a ctach 22.

As for eliminating SD, cant do that, that would be a huge blow to the bottom line. even in its crappy state, SD brings in huge money for the company. And dropping a TV show would likely send their stock into a tailspin.

Shorter Matches
I always consider the time between the day after Mania 2000 to Mania X-Seven as the best year in WWE history frrm booking, to TV to match quality, to making money. During that time they started to push stronger workers on top. The guys on top were Rock, HHH, Austin, Taker, Angle, Jericho and Benoit to a point. All those guys could have really good matches (yes even Taker). And what was even better was that the undercard was getting better (thanks to the Radicalz) so it forced the top guys to get better as well to justify their spots. What you had was a kind of competition among the guys to outdo one another.

Nowadays, they have rules where the bottom guys cant do anything in their matches that might upstage the top guys. Well thats like having a union in a workplace, it breeds laziness, and thats why you dont get consistantly great main events like you did in 2000.

In terms of length of matches, they basically always had the main event even go 15-20 (not much longer than 20 though) and the rest of the matches were kept short. I think that philosophy is good for TV because it gets more guys on TV. When you watch RAW and SD now, very few guys see TV time, and as a result, fewer guys are over even as an opening card act. I think now they have too many 25+ minute matches. What happens then is that the PPV 25 minute matches seem less special and like anything doing it too much is bad. In a perfect world they'd go back to 10-15 minute mains on TV, but then when the time is right let say Benoit and Jericho go 40. That would seem special, and people would feel like they seen something amazing.

I also think they need more DQs. Not every match that is free needs an ending. I think its more important to continue a story and make people want to see guys fight again, instead of getting resolution for free every week.

In terms of more skits, only if they are good skits. The current writing staff really really....really sucks. They dont know how to make people want to watch a fight, and their idea of comedy either sounds like its written by a 4 year old, or is just offensive. So neither works. If the same people are writing, then the LAST thing we need is more opportunities for them to show off their "talents".

Eddie Guerrero
Hasn't proven to be a draw, except for a few towns, but I think he is the most viable babyface they have. Ive explained before, he has to be more serious to be on top. There can be time for comedy (which he still does on occasion, especially in his matches on TV), but to draw money you need to be serious. Rock and Foley are great examples of this. They could be as funny as anyone when they wanted to be, but when it came time to sell tickets, they threw the comedy out the window and turned to violence and seriousness to do so. Same has to happen with Eddie, which I think they've done effectively. The only problem is that he's on SD which is a dead product, and the fans know it, especially when it comes to buying tickets.

Hardcore Title
Like most things in the WWE it got over exposed. when you have ho's winning it, it looses whatever credibility it had. You need comedy on wrestling shows, but having a title that is just there for cheap laughs A) doesn't sell tickets and B) gets old fast. If they want to have a real hardcore title and have actual hardcore matches for guys like RVD and Rhyno to sink their teeth into, sure go ahead. But I dont need to see Mighty Molly as HC champ.

What Do Fans Want?
This is the biggest problem I see with the WWE right now. Some people will say they dont give the fans what they want. But at the same time, we have/had Eddie and Benoit as World Champions, seeimingly thats being done to cater to the smarks (which is usally a bad idea), but business has gone down.

So do we even know what the average fan wants? I dont think anyone knows the answer to that question. I think what has happened is that fans have seen too much in a short time period and now there's nothing they can do that will gain people's attention.

If you look back to when the WWE got hot, they started by doing things that people had never seen. Whether that was in interviews, in backstage skits, elabortae stunts or even in the ring with guys willing to take incredible bumps. But all that is gone because the bar was raised to high. So now when people turn on a wrestling show, they almost always say "Ive seen that before" and they have. I think thats a huge problem.

At the same time, I dont want to see them go back to the TLC style matches every othe rmonth, because again that burs fans out, and it shortens careers.

Whats worse is that the WWE still had even before Mania XX a large enough audience to keep going and stay profitable. Unfortunately, more and more you are hearing hardcore fans turning away form the product. On wrestlingobserver.com, Dave Meltzer does a poll every week asking fans what they thought of SD. One of the options is "I didn't watch the show". That option gets well over 40% every week. Now think about that for a minute. Only the most hardcore fans are going to even think about going to Dave's site, and if well over 40% of those people aren't willing to invest 2 hours into SD, imagine what the average fan is thinking.

I dont have the answer to turn things around. The only thing they can do now is write good television, push guys who are over and talented enough to justify their spots and thats enough to at least maintain their current fanbase. They desperately need a new star to catch on huge (like Austin or Rock) or a new concept to catch on (like Attitude or the Nitro concept), but I dont see either on any nearby horizons.

More and more I think we're looking at the beginning of the end for pro wrestling as we know it. That may sound odd since WWE just had an extremely profitable year, but I see the writing on the wall.

[Boondock Saint]

Holy fuck CyNick. Repping you just for typing all that. I'm gonna go and read it now but I am mighty tired.

-EDIT- Must spread some rep around?!

[MVP]

Originally Posted by The CyNick More and more I think we're looking at the beginning of the end for pro wrestling as we know it. That may sound odd since WWE just had an extremely profitable year, but I see the writing on the wall.

That's what I was thinking as I read your's and everybody elses posts on here. I think that WWE has dug themselves in a hole they can't get out of, much like WCW did once they put the World Heavyweight title on Goldberg. I was a big supporter of the roster split for the longest time because I figured that younger stars were going to get the rub to the top, but ever since last year I stopped believing that.

I'm not concerned with what will happen to the lower card wrestlers if the roster is merged because they barely get any TV time already so what difference is it going to make. It will mean more contenders for the titles, especially the tag team titles.

A great way to go about this is having one of the big PPV's like Summerslam and Survivor Series have all the title unification matches to start a new era in WWE, to use a cliche.

Excellent read CyNick, but you kind of depressed me at the end . It's funny how you say the WWE needs more DQ'S because back in 97/98, it seemed like all we were getting were DQ endings with stables always running in. But that's my all-time favorite era, so I liked it. I loved when the Hart's would run in and give Patriot or Vader or whomever a beatdown.

Well, I hope they can get out of this "depression" so to speak and find something that will catch on and make business great again.

BTW: What do you think if they go back to 4 or 5 PPV's a year if they merged. Survior, Sumerslam, Rumble, Mania and whatever else. Would this work you think?

[Heyman]

The CyNick.

Da-amn! How long did you type that out?!?!

Good read. I'll try and respond to that when I get free. Too busy right now.

[Boondock Saint]

Good read CyNick. I agree pretty much. You say things I tend to think but don't know how to put in words.

Only thing I didn't like was the very end because it was depressing but at the same time, scarily enough sounds true

[The CyNick]

Didn't really realize how long that was. You all should know by now, I'm not exactly concise, when I get started on a decent topic there's no stopping me.

I'm sorry for depressing everyone, but its what I think. Like I said, more and more I see the end coming. I hope I'm worng, because obviously I love wrestling, but its about analyzing the facts as they occur. And the result isn't good at this point.

If this make everyone feel better, they were losing money in 96-97 and managed to turn things around, so its possible it could happen again.

In terms of # of PPVs, I think 12 is fine. Its unlikely they will go less than that, just because each one is so profitable. But like I said, I think 12 is the limit, adding PPVs has made them all seem less special, and once that happens you're dead.

Perhaps as a last resort if PPV business really goes in the toilet, they could drop back to 4 or 5 to make them feel special, and maybe charge a little more. But that would be a last resort.

I think right now if they go back to 12 and unify the rosters you might get a small bounce back. Especially with a RAW vs SD feud, which would likely at the very least keep them from losing more viewers. As the current fans would be interested in the outcome (if its booked right).

How bad was business back in 96/97? Was it getting to the point where they might have gone out of business. If so, then I think we're alright here because like I said before, Vince won't let his business die and will do everything possible to keep the WWE alive. I mean back in 96, that was horrible. I say that was the worst year ever in WWE(F) history. It looked like they couldn't get anything right and then BOOM...Bret gets a heel turn, DX forms, Austin gets a babyface turn, Screwjob, Rock turns heel, Austin/Tyson comes, New DX forms, Kane comes in and eveything is good again. We need some of this right now.

[James Steele]

You see,


I forgot who "said" it, but a wrestler said "Wrestling goes in cycles" and i saw a documentry on wrestling today and it really made me think about that...


And like i said in a post a week or so ago, Vince needs to get as close to rock bottom as possible before changing. Look at the WWF when WCW was kicking their ass BAD (like LC mentioned) He changed the direction completely. He went from Doink to DX when he had no other choice, but he is far from that point.


oh yeah, welcome back Heyman and Cynick that rocked ( semi-autographed rep for both of you)

[The CyNick]

They are in better shape now then they were back in 96 for a variety of reasons. Number 1 they have two better TV deals then they had back then and they also have about $300 million in cash reserves just sitting there. So if they were to start losing money at a fast rate, they have enough cash to survive years and years before they are out of business.

However, the difference in 96 was that wrestling was popular in other places, it just wans't hot in the WWE. Now, all we have is the WWE, and they are far from hot. The big problem I see now that didn't exist in the past was that there are fewer and fewer wrestlers and wrestling organizations to draw ideas from.

So its not like Vince can point to "x" place and say lets try to do what they're doing, because nobody is doing better than him.

The other problem is that as WCW has shown when these business drivers start going south they go south fast and its virtually impossible to turn them around. House Shows were the first victim, which isn't a huge deal in this day and age, but now PPVs are going, and that is bad. And if ratings dont get any better, then they could very well one of if not both TV deals, and then they're really in trouble. Spike's contract is up next year, and UPN could cut Smackdown at any time basically.

[Wondermouse]

Oh man. It would take me about a day to respond to everyone of your points, but let's just say I disagree with you on about everything.

[James Steele]

SpikeTV will never drop WWE. Its the only thing they have that gets more than a 100 viewers.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Wondermouse Oh man. It would take me about a day to respond to everyone of your points, but let's just say I disagree with you on about everything.

Briefly - what are the main things you disagree with?



p.s. I'll make a short list. In my view, here are the wrestlers who should be getting pushed and de-pushed.

Pushed:

-Chris Jericho

-Christian (to where Orton is now basically)

-Test/Val Venis as a tag team (yes - both men have been pushed in the past...and neither men almost have no chance of making it before, but I think they would freshen up the tag division. Test has decent in-ring skill (for a big man), while Val Venis has above average in-ring ability and mic skills).

-Rob Van Dam (as a heel opponent for Eddie Guerrero)

-Mordecai

-Hardcore Holly/Billy Gunn (this may surprise a few people, but I think the two men would make a fairly decent heel tag team. Both men are 'veterans' and are 'well known'....a time when SD could use some more recognizeable names. Hardcore Holly has solid mic skills, while Billy Gunn isn't too bad either).

-Mark Jindrak

-Scott Steiner (They might as well use the guy on Smackdown).


De-pushed:

-Renee Dupree (until he gets a better gimmick)

-La Resistance (see above)

-Dave Batista (not good enough or 'over' enough to be warranting so much TV time of late)

-Randy Orton (over exposure of late good end up hurting him. WWE needs to slow down a bit with Orton. Too many long boring 6 man tags of late).

-Shelton Benjamin (needs a better gimmick, more charisma)

-Edge (see above).

-Luther Reins - shouldn't be used in matches to squash FULL-TIME wrestlers. What will become of him when Big Show returns?

-Charlie Hass (needs a better reason for the fans to care about him)

-Sable, Torrie Wilson, Smackdown Divas: Small amounts of TV time are ok, but shouldn't be depended on for ratings. Should be used as valets of get current talent over (i.e. Wilson and Kidman should hook up, etc.).

-Women's Division on Raw. Should be used sparingly. No more than ONE match per night, if women's matches air on Raw (or Smackdown).

-Rikishi/Scotty 2 Hotty: Need a heel turn (Rikishi) or need to be released from the company. S2H should be released either way.

[Hired Hitman]

I agree.. but keep both the IC and the US championships.

Pros of end of Roster split
- Less deadweight (Holly, Palumbo)
- Collision of main-eventers = feuds.
- One less time to switch off your TV

Cons of end of roster split
- 2 rosters + 1 roster's titles = Competition between main-eventers = Burial of some of them
- Potential chance of people getting stale faster
- One less source of revenue

[Londoner]

I think you've got to notice something is wrong with the roster split when you have to make JBL as WWE champ.

[Goldbird]

Heyman, I dont like it when you mentioned John Bradshaw Layfield in your first post.






Me bad

[Evil Vito]

I too think that the roster split has finally run its course. Therefore, I have decided to run through the WWE roster and state what I think should be done with everybody if the split gets ended..

First off, I’d like to say that at WrestleMania, the two World Titles should be unified, the two tag titles should be unified, the Cruiserweight Title stays, the Women’s Title stays, the Intercontinental Title should be the second-most important singles belt, and the United States Title should be the third-most important singles belt (similarly to the way the European Title was).

Also, I think that everyone should be a contender for one of the titles (unless I say that they should be released or sent to OVW). This way, the titles have more meaning when many people are going after them.

I also agree with many others that the matches should be shorter with more backstage vignettes, as it allows more people to get TV time.

A-TRAIN: He should be released. Not only is he a shitty wrestler with limited charisma, but the casual marks don’t give a crap about him either.
BATISTA: Should be going for the United States Title, he doesn’t warrant much else.
CHRIS BENOIT: As much as I doubt it would happen, he should stay in the WWE Title ranks.
CHRIS JERICHO: The WWE are obviously blind to not see how over this guy is, screw what Triple H says, put him in the WWE Title hunt.
CHRIS NOWINSKI: If he ever returns he’d have to go to OVW for a long while to lose the ring rust that he’d have.
CHRISTIAN: Definitely should be going for the IC Title, hopefully the WWE Title someday.
CHUCK PALUMBO: Re-unite him with the rest of the FBI and put him and Stamboli in the Tag-Team Title ranks.
EDGE: IC Title contender.
ERIC BISCHOFF: Should be the main figurehead.
EUGENE: As much as I love his current character, when he has it he can’t be more than an IC Title challenger. When he eventually loses the gimmick and the name, who knows, maybe he could be pushed to the WWE Title. I seriously think that Dinsmore could be the next Rock (his “friendship” with The Rock could be a way of passing the torch).
GAIL KIM: Women’s title.
GARRISON CADE: Too bland, they need to find a gimmick for him and then stick him in the U.S. Title hunt to test it out.
IVORY: If she’s willing to go back to being a full-time worker, put her in the women’s division.
JAZZ: Women’s title.
KANE: He’d conceivably be in the WWE Title hunt, yet he’d be the type that really just fights other main eveners in non-title matches.
LITA: I’d like her to be released, but with Matt Hardy on the roster she’ll have to stay in the women’s division.
MARK HENRY: Unfortunately, the WWE were dumb enough to give this guy a 10-year contract, so releasing him isn’t an option. Stick him in OVW for a while so he can lose his ring rust.
MATT HARDY: I think if pushed right, he could be a perennial IC Title contender.
MAVEN: I really don’t care for Maven, but since I doubt they’d release him or send him down, stick him in the U.S. Title ranks (but never really have him challenge for the belt).
MICK FOLEY: Probably will never work for the WWE again, stupid Flair.
MOLLY HOLLY: Women’s division.
NIDIA: I personally think she could use some more work in OVW.
RANDY ORTON: IC Title material at the start of the re-unification, but definite future main eventer. Could be the future Triple H.
RHYNO: Should be one of the top U.S. Title competitors.
RIC FLAIR: Should be used sparingly in the ring and work more as a manager.
ROBERT CONWAY: Should stay in his team with Sylvain for now.
ROSEY: As much as I love the S.H.I.T character, a singles run wouldn’t work for him, and since I’d rather not have The Hurricane be stuck in the tag team ranks, I think they should just let Rosey go. If not, let him at least freshen his skills up in OVW or have him re-form The Wild Samoans with Rikishi.
SHAWN MICHAELS: Being realistic, he’s definitely going to be in the WWE Title ranks.
SHELTON BENJAMIN: I don’t think that he’s ready for an IC Title run, so I’d let him be in the U.S. Title ranks for the time being until his pops improve from being just lukewarm.
STACY KEIBLER: I’d have her manage a cruiserweight. Said cruiserweight could get overness, get more exposure, and several Cruiserweight Title reigns. *cough* Paul London *cough*
STEVEN RICHARDS: U.S. Title hunt.
SYLVAIN GRENIER: See: ROBERT CONWAY
TAJIRI: Cruiserweight Title contender.
TEST: When he heals up I think they should either stick him in a tag team with Val Venis or just let go of him.
THE HURRICANE: Cruiserweight Title contender.
THE ROCK: Meh, when he comes back it’s only in month-long spans. He should pass the torch to Nick Dinsmore in a promo.
TRISH STRATUS: Women’s division.
TRIPLE H: Sadly, he’s a definite WWE Title contender, no matter what.
TYSON TOMKO: Needs more time in OVW.
VAL VENIS: As I touched upon earlier, either team him and Test up or just release him.
VICTORIA: Women’s title.
WILLIAM REGAL: Not sure if he’s going to become a fully active wrestler again or not. If he is, either put him in the U.S. or IC Title hunts. If not, make him a commentator for Raw, because we all know how stale the JR/King duo is.

AKIO: Cruiserweight Title.
BILLY GUNN: I’ll be honest, I actually don’t mind Billy Gunn, but he is WAY past his prime, and I think they should just let him go.
BILLY KIDMAN: He’s a great talent, but he’s bland and is a black-hole of charisma. I think they should let him have some time in OVW to work on his promo skills.
BOOKER T: I don’t think he’s going to even be in the promotion much longer because of his impending retirement, so I really don’t know what to do with him.
BUBBA RAY DUDLEY: He’s forever a tag team wrestler, so keep him and D-Von together, but please, just refresh their gimmick somehow.
CHARLIE HAAS: I really like his team with Rico, so I think they should keep it going.
CHAVO GUERRERO: Cruiserweight Title.
D-VON DUDLEY: See: BUBBA RAY DUDLEY
DANNY BASHAM: Keep the Basham Brothers together.
DAWN MARIE: Send her to OVW to work on her in-ring work. If she can’t improve then just let her go.
DOUG BASHAM: See: DANNY BASHAM
EDDIE GUERRERO: WWE Title contender.
FUNAKI: Cruiserweight Title.
HARDCORE HOLLY: Meh, just can his ass, nobody gives a shit about him anyways.
JAMIE NOBLE: Cruiserweight Title.
JOHN CENA: For now, have him in the IC Title hunt. Eventually he WILL be a WWE Title guy, IMO, he’s the Steve Austin of the future.
JBL: Just what did he do to warrant the WWE Title? Make him job to cruiserweights.
JOHNNY STAMBOLI: See: CHUCK PALUMBO
KENZO SUZUKI: He’s new, so I really can’t judge him yet. Maybe team him up with Sakoda? If that doesn’t work, release him.
KURT ANGLE: If he ever makes a full recovery, then definitely WWE Title hunt. If not, make him Commissioner Angle.
LUTHER REIGNS: Again, I haven’t seen enough of him to judge. Maybe make him the henchman of both Angle AND Bischoff? I dunno.
MARK JINDRAK: With Theodore Long with him, he should get a decnt U.S. Title run, and maybe move on to the IC Title.
MISS JACKIE: See: DAWN MARIE
MORDECAI: IC Title for now, although he will likely feud with Taker and Kane at some point.
NUNZIO: Keep him as the leader of the FBI and keep him as a Cruiserweight Title guy, maybe even move him to the U.S. Title.
ORLANDO JORDAN: needs more OVW time.
PAUL LONDON: See: STACY KEIBLER
RENE DUPREE: Re-unite him with the rest of La Resistance and have him work in the U.S. Title division until he can improve.
REY MYSTERIO: Cruiserweight Title.
RICO: See: CHARLIE HAAS
RIKISHI: Currently one of the stalest acts in the WWE. Either let him team with Rosey or can him.
ROB VAN DAM: IC Title, hopefully he’ll eventually move up to the WWE Title.
SABLE: See: DAWN MARIE
SAKODA: Too heavy for a cruiserweight, but I doubt anyone would give a shit if he went for the U.S. Title. As I mentioned earlier, maybe team him with Kenzo Suzuki. If it doesn’t work out maybe he should spend more time in OVW.
SCOTTY 2 HOTTY: Stale act and getting on in years. I think it’d be best to let him go.
SHANNON MOORE: Cruiserweight Title.
SPIKE DUDLEY: Either keep him as the type that heels squash to make them look dominant, or just release him.
THEODORE LONG: Keep him with mark Jindrak.
TORRIE WILSON: Have her in OVW working on her in-ring and promo skills. If she becomes a better wrestler, have her go for the women’s title. If she gets more charismatic, have her manage Kidman. If she can’t improve in either, release her.
UNDERTAKER: Once again, being realistic, he’ll be a WWE Title contender.

Comments are appreciated.

Originally Posted by Big Vito 22 I too think that the roster split has finally run its course. Therefore, I have decided to run through the WWE roster and state what I think should be done with everybody if the split gets ended.. First off, I’d like to say that at WrestleMania, the two World Titles should be unified, the two tag titles should be unified, the Cruiserweight Title stays, the Women’s Title stays, the Intercontinental Title should be the second-most important singles belt, and the United States Title should be the third-most important singles belt (similarly to the way the European Title was). Also, I think that everyone should be a contender for one of the titles (unless I say that they should be released or sent to OVW). This way, the titles have more meaning when many people are going after them. I also agree with many others that the matches should be shorter with more backstage vignettes, as it allows more people to get TV time. A-TRAIN: He should be released. Not only is he a shitty wrestler with limited charisma, but the casual marks don’t give a crap about him either. BATISTA: Should be going for the United States Title, he doesn’t warrant much else. CHRIS BENOIT: As much as I doubt it would happen, he should stay in the WWE Title ranks. CHRIS JERICHO: The WWE are obviously blind to not see how over this guy is, screw what Triple H says, put him in the WWE Title hunt. CHRIS NOWINSKI: If he ever returns he’d have to go to OVW for a long while to lose the ring rust that he’d have. CHRISTIAN: Definitely should be going for the IC Title, hopefully the WWE Title someday. CHUCK PALUMBO: Re-unite him with the rest of the FBI and put him and Stamboli in the Tag-Team Title ranks. EDGE: IC Title contender. ERIC BISCHOFF: Should be the main figurehead. EUGENE: As much as I love his current character, when he has it he can’t be more than an IC Title challenger. When he eventually loses the gimmick and the name, who knows, maybe he could be pushed to the WWE Title. I seriously think that Dinsmore could be the next Rock (his “friendship” with The Rock could be a way of passing the torch). GAIL KIM: Women’s title. GARRISON CADE: Too bland, they need to find a gimmick for him and then stick him in the U.S. Title hunt to test it out. IVORY: If she’s willing to go back to being a full-time worker, put her in the women’s division. JAZZ: Women’s title. KANE: He’d conceivably be in the WWE Title hunt, yet he’d be the type that really just fights other main eveners in non-title matches. LITA: I’d like her to be released, but with Matt Hardy on the roster she’ll have to stay in the women’s division. MARK HENRY: Unfortunately, the WWE were dumb enough to give this guy a 10-year contract, so releasing him isn’t an option. Stick him in OVW for a while so he can lose his ring rust. MATT HARDY: I think if pushed right, he could be a perennial IC Title contender. MAVEN: I really don’t care for Maven, but since I doubt they’d release him or send him down, stick him in the U.S. Title ranks (but never really have him challenge for the belt). MICK FOLEY: Probably will never work for the WWE again, stupid Flair. MOLLY HOLLY: Women’s division. NIDIA: I personally think she could use some more work in OVW. RANDY ORTON: IC Title material at the start of the re-unification, but definite future main eventer. Could be the future Triple H. RHYNO: Should be one of the top U.S. Title competitors. RIC FLAIR: Should be used sparingly in the ring and work more as a manager. ROBERT CONWAY: Should stay in his team with Sylvain for now. ROSEY: As much as I love the S.H.I.T character, a singles run wouldn’t work for him, and since I’d rather not have The Hurricane be stuck in the tag team ranks, I think they should just let Rosey go. If not, let him at least freshen his skills up in OVW or have him re-form The Wild Samoans with Rikishi. SHAWN MICHAELS: Being realistic, he’s definitely going to be in the WWE Title ranks. SHELTON BENJAMIN: I don’t think that he’s ready for an IC Title run, so I’d let him be in the U.S. Title ranks for the time being until his pops improve from being just lukewarm. STACY KEIBLER: I’d have her manage a cruiserweight. Said cruiserweight could get overness, get more exposure, and several Cruiserweight Title reigns. *cough* Paul London *cough* STEVEN RICHARDS: U.S. Title hunt. SYLVAIN GRENIER: See: ROBERT CONWAY TAJIRI: Cruiserweight Title contender. TEST: When he heals up I think they should either stick him in a tag team with Val Venis or just let go of him. THE HURRICANE: Cruiserweight Title contender. THE ROCK: Meh, when he comes back it’s only in month-long spans. He should pass the torch to Nick Dinsmore in a promo. TRISH STRATUS: Women’s division. TRIPLE H: Sadly, he’s a definite WWE Title contender, no matter what. TYSON TOMKO: Needs more time in OVW. VAL VENIS: As I touched upon earlier, either team him and Test up or just release him. VICTORIA: Women’s title. WILLIAM REGAL: Not sure if he’s going to become a fully active wrestler again or not. If he is, either put him in the U.S. or IC Title hunts. If not, make him a commentator for Raw, because we all know how stale the JR/King duo is. AKIO: Cruiserweight Title. BILLY GUNN: I’ll be honest, I actually don’t mind Billy Gunn, but he is WAY past his prime, and I think they should just let him go. BILLY KIDMAN: He’s a great talent, but he’s bland and is a black-hole of charisma. I think they should let him have some time in OVW to work on his promo skills. BOOKER T: I don’t think he’s going to even be in the promotion much longer because of his impending retirement, so I really don’t know what to do with him. BUBBA RAY DUDLEY: He’s forever a tag team wrestler, so keep him and D-Von together, but please, just refresh their gimmick somehow. CHARLIE HAAS: I really like his team with Rico, so I think they should keep it going. CHAVO GUERRERO: Cruiserweight Title. D-VON DUDLEY: See: BUBBA RAY DUDLEY DANNY BASHAM: Keep the Basham Brothers together. DAWN MARIE: Send her to OVW to work on her in-ring work. If she can’t improve then just let her go. DOUG BASHAM: See: DANNY BASHAM EDDIE GUERRERO: WWE Title contender. FUNAKI: Cruiserweight Title. HARDCORE HOLLY: Meh, just can his ass, nobody gives a shit about him anyways. JAMIE NOBLE: Cruiserweight Title. JOHN CENA: For now, have him in the IC Title hunt. Eventually he WILL be a WWE Title guy, IMO, he’s the Steve Austin of the future. JBL: Just what did he do to warrant the WWE Title? Make him job to cruiserweights. JOHNNY STAMBOLI: See: CHUCK PALUMBO KENZO SUZUKI: He’s new, so I really can’t judge him yet. Maybe team him up with Sakoda? If that doesn’t work, release him. KURT ANGLE: If he ever makes a full recovery, then definitely WWE Title hunt. If not, make him Commissioner Angle. LUTHER REIGNS: Again, I haven’t seen enough of him to judge. Maybe make him the henchman of both Angle AND Bischoff? I dunno. MARK JINDRAK: With Theodore Long with him, he should get a decnt U.S. Title run, and maybe move on to the IC Title. MISS JACKIE: See: DAWN MARIE MORDECAI: IC Title for now, although he will likely feud with Taker and Kane at some point. NUNZIO: Keep him as the leader of the FBI and keep him as a Cruiserweight Title guy, maybe even move him to the U.S. Title. ORLANDO JORDAN: needs more OVW time. PAUL LONDON: See: STACY KEIBLER RENE DUPREE: Re-unite him with the rest of La Resistance and have him work in the U.S. Title division until he can improve. REY MYSTERIO: Cruiserweight Title. RICO: See: CHARLIE HAAS RIKISHI: Currently one of the stalest acts in the WWE. Either let him team with Rosey or can him. ROB VAN DAM: IC Title, hopefully he’ll eventually move up to the WWE Title. SABLE: See: DAWN MARIE SAKODA: Too heavy for a cruiserweight, but I doubt anyone would give a shit if he went for the U.S. Title. As I mentioned earlier, maybe team him with Kenzo Suzuki. If it doesn’t work out maybe he should spend more time in OVW. SCOTTY 2 HOTTY: Stale act and getting on in years. I think it’d be best to let him go. SHANNON MOORE: Cruiserweight Title. SPIKE DUDLEY: Either keep him as the type that heels squash to make them look dominant, or just release him. THEODORE LONG: Keep him with mark Jindrak. TORRIE WILSON: Have her in OVW working on her in-ring and promo skills. If she becomes a better wrestler, have her go for the women’s title. If she gets more charismatic, have her manage Kidman. If she can’t improve in either, release her. UNDERTAKER: Once again, being realistic, he’ll be a WWE Title contender. Comments are appreciated.

I absolutely don't believe anyone could match CyNick's post length, but my man, you have equaled it.

[Wondermouse]

- The roster split should not end. At the very least, two titles give them two guys to put over as the "top guy." Eddie Guerrero would NOT be as over as he is now, because he would've been killed and buried in a main event program.
- You advocate cutting people like A-Train and Chuck Palumbo to free up airtime. These guys are never used and would free up ZERO airtime. Instead, Triple H will be taking up 45 minutes on BOTH shows. The tag division would never be brought up. The cruiserweights would be lucky to appear on a B show. And then you'd have a CLUSTERFUCK of midcard, if you're gonna throw Booker, RVD, Dupree, and Cena over with Orton, Edge, and Shelton.
- They should not be going to shorter matches and more backstage skits. The match length is fine, they should incorporate more to further the storylines in the ring. For example, Jericho has pinned Batista twice in three weeks, while also getting killed by a Batista clothesline. This builds toward a pay-per view one on one match, which will be good, and also intense.
- The countless Evolution vs. Faces tags are a GOOD thing because it's usually 20 minutes of entertainment.

[The Mackem]

Originally Posted by Heyman d) There were never any commerical breaks during matches.......which in today's current era, has to be one of the most ANNOYING things of all-time. Seriously - last Monday.....we saw TWO commerical breaks during the Benoit/Kane match! Give me a break!

They gave you two

[Wondermouse]

I remember commercial breaks during the main event all the freaking time back then.

Besides, I wanna know - you want less Evolution vs. Faces so we get more Lita/Matt?

Workers are rarely given 10+ minutes unless they can actually work. Plenty of people have backstage segments, and the only people they have that can make a backstage segment worth watching are Jericho, Trips, Eddie, Eugene (who's all over the damned show anyway), and maybe guys like Teddy Long. Angle too, but he's in Professor X mode.

We fondly remember great backstage skits - but that was thanks to guys like Austin, Angle, Rock, and Jericho kicking ass.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Wondermouse - The roster split should not end. At the very least, two titles give them two guys to put over as the "top guy." Eddie Guerrero would NOT be as over as he is now, because he would've been killed and buried in a main event program. - You advocate cutting people like A-Train and Chuck Palumbo to free up airtime. These guys are never used and would free up ZERO airtime. Instead, Triple H will be taking up 45 minutes on BOTH shows. The tag division would never be brought up. The cruiserweights would be lucky to appear on a B show. And then you'd have a CLUSTERFUCK of midcard, if you're gonna throw Booker, RVD, Dupree, and Cena over with Orton, Edge, and Shelton. - They should not be going to shorter matches and more backstage skits. The match length is fine, they should incorporate more to further the storylines in the ring. For example, Jericho has pinned Batista twice in three weeks, while also getting killed by a Batista clothesline. This builds toward a pay-per view one on one match, which will be good, and also intense. - The countless Evolution vs. Faces tags are a GOOD thing because it's usually 20 minutes of entertainment.

The problem with two champions is that niether guy is able to draw, because neither guys seems above the rest. When you have only one champion, you can point to him and say he's the man. With the brand extension you cant do that.

I think Evolution are getting over (I'm talking about Randy and Batista) but at the same time, I think when you see too many 20 minute matches they get stale, and then when you do them on PPV they dont seem special. At that point why would people order the PPVs? At least if the TV matches are kept around the 7-10 minute mark, the PPV matches seem special and worth ordering.

[Wondermouse]

Originally Posted by The CyNick I think Evolution are getting over (I'm talking about Randy and Batista) but at the same time, I think when you see too many 20 minute matches they get stale, and then when you do them on PPV they dont seem special. At that point why would people order the PPVs? At least if the TV matches are kept around the 7-10 minute mark, the PPV matches seem special and worth ordering.

Because the tag matches are used to build towards a singles showdown. Aside from that, people tend to order PPVs for one or two matches anyway, and Jericho/Batista won't be relied upon to "draw." That'll essentially be placed upon the world title match, and maybe a match such as a HIAC or TLC.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Wondermouse Because the tag matches are used to build towards a singles showdown. Aside from that, people tend to order PPVs for one or two matches anyway, and Jericho/Batista won't be relied upon to "draw." That'll essentially be placed upon the world title match, and maybe a match such as a HIAC or TLC.

Yeah but I'm not saying get rid of those tag matches, just cut their length in half. You can accomplish the same thing in 8-10 minutes, without devaluing the PPV matches.

Then at the PPV you can have 15-20 minute matches, and they will seem special.

[Mayo]

Originally Posted by The CyNick The problem with two champions is that niether guy is able to draw, because neither guys seems above the rest. When you have only one champion, you can point to him and say he's the man. With the brand extension you cant do that. I think Evolution are getting over (I'm talking about Randy and Batista) but at the same time, I think when you see too many 20 minute matches they get stale, and then when you do them on PPV they dont seem special. At that point why would people order the PPVs? At least if the TV matches are kept around the 7-10 minute mark, the PPV matches seem special and worth ordering.

We all know that the man holding the Raw title (HHH) is the only one that matters these days

[Wondermouse]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Yeah but I'm not saying get rid of those tag matches, just cut their length in half. You can accomplish the same thing in 8-10 minutes, without devaluing the PPV matches. Then at the PPV you can have 15-20 minute matches, and they will seem special.

But it really doesn't make sense if a tag match only goes 10 minutes, and then a singles match goes 20. The tag should go longer, and it takes longer to build. You'd need a screwy finish for it not to come off silly.

I can see the argument if a brand's doing a PPV every month. But they aren't, so many times feuds need to come to an end on a regular show. At the same time, when you're advancing a feud within matches, an 8 minute match will not cut it. Aside from that, 8 minute matches tend to suck. I'm looking forward to Batista/Jericho because they've shown me over the past three weeks that they can go, and they've done so in long matches.

Who'd wanna see the blowoff to a short feud and series of matches if the previous matched have stunk?

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Wondermouse But it really doesn't make sense if a tag match only goes 10 minutes, and then a singles match goes 20. The tag should go longer, and it takes longer to build. You'd need a screwy finish for it not to come off silly. I can see the argument if a brand's doing a PPV every month. But they aren't, so many times feuds need to come to an end on a regular show. At the same time, when you're advancing a feud within matches, an 8 minute match will not cut it. Aside from that, 8 minute matches tend to suck. I'm looking forward to Batista/Jericho because they've shown me over the past three weeks that they can go, and they've done so in long matches. Who'd wanna see the blowoff to a short feud and series of matches if the previous matched have stunk?

You assume they will suck. If a match sucks in 8 minutes, it will be even worse in 15. But you CAN have a good match in 8 minutes. And who says they need decisive finishes on TV?

The point is, when the WWE was doing really well they had shorter matches. Now they have too many long matches and all their business drivers are down. I'm not saying thats the reason why they are down, but it would make sense to argue that they should go back to the formula that was successful.