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View Poll Results: Survivor Series 1997
Vince McMahon 37 69.81%
Bret Hart 12 22.64%
Shawn Michaels 4 7.55%
Voters: 53. You must log in or register to vote on this poll.

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Old 07-14-2004, 01:34 AM   #1
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Survivor Series 1997
Since this has once again become a hot issue with Ric Flair's book...and Bret Hart's response...

Who do YOU blame most for what happened in Montreal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? View Post
I would have no problem with HBK getting a farewell run with the title before he retires.

With that said though, there is no belt in the industry that HBK could win that would add to his career. HBK's career is built around him being HBK, not winning a bunch of titles.
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:36 AM   #2
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Vince, although Bret should have dropped the belt, and Shawn shouldn't have agreed to do the thing.
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:37 AM   #3
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:41 AM   #4
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Vinny. A classless thing to do out of spite because someone wouldn't job to one specific person on a specific night, especially when that person was a whiny bitch.
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:42 AM   #5
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I honestly don't care.
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:45 AM   #6
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Okay guys, I'm logging off. But if I come back here and see things that I have alredy explained about in the other thread mentioned again, someone is gonna pay.

Vinve BTW.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:01 AM   #7
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Bret owed it to Vince to drop the belt to HBK. Vince was wrong to do what he did, but it should have never come to that. I guess they are both to blame in a way. Not HBK though. He was simply doing what he was asked to do.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan
Bret owed it to Vince to drop the belt to HBK. Vince was wrong to do what he did, but it should have never come to that. I guess they are both to blame in a way. Not HBK though. He was simply doing what he was asked to do.
He owed it? Just to appease my curriosity could you elaborate.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:20 AM   #9
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He was leaving for WCW and he held the WWF title. It's just common courtesy for him to drop the belt to the man that is lined up to fill that void, making him look good before leaving.

It's like when someone is retiring, it's good to go out with a loss and put the other guy over. Well the only difference here would be that Bret was leaving to work for the competition. He needed to put his personal feelings aside, do the job, and give that to Vince before heading to WCW.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan
He was leaving for WCW and he held the WWF title. It's just common courtesy for him to drop the belt to the man that is lined up to fill that void, making him look good before leaving.

It's like when someone is retiring, it's good to go out with a loss and put the other guy over. Well the only difference here would be that Bret was leaving to work for the competition. He needed to put his personal feelings aside, do the job, and give that to Vince before heading to WCW.
Except Vince was the one telling him to go in the first place and Bret was gonna drop the title in a 4 way match in such a way that not only does HBK get the belt but another guy could have been made a star (Ken Shamrock). Fact of the mater is Bret put his heart and soul into the WWF turning down bigger contracts from WCW all along until Vince told him to go because they were goingto have to breach his contract. Bret barely missed a show in 14 years and never injured a single person in the ring. Vince gave him creative control, it was that control that Bret used to refuse. So really even if you blame Bret for using that control it's still Vince's fault because he allowed it to be put in there in the first place.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:40 AM   #11
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I realise that. I'm simply saying that yes Bret had creative control and technically didn't do anything wrong in using it. It just would have been cool for him to put all his hatred for HBK aside and just tell Vince that whatever he wanted him to do was fine. I don't think it's WRONG what he did... just selfish and childish. I don't hate him for it like others do though.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan
I realise that. I'm simply saying that yes Bret had creative control and technically didn't do anything wrong in using it. It just would have been cool for him to put all his hatred for HBK aside and just tell Vince that whatever he wanted him to do was fine. I don't think it's WRONG what he did... just selfish and childish. I don't hate him for it like others do though.
I knew I would have to argue things again.

Why should he put everything aside for Shawn though? It's like the old saying from the Bible, "Do unto others as they do unto you," HBK had been nothing but a selfish asshole to the Hitman. HBK came out with the "Sunny Days" remark on live TV implying Bret and Sunny had an affair, HBK flat out refused to job to Bret on a number of occassions, HBK called Stu "Dead" on live TV, HBK blatantly mocked the Canadian flag. And, Bret actually agreed to job to him, but Shawn said something disrespectful

Here, it was in that article:

In a conversation that I had with Shawn Michaels three weeks before Montreal, when I was champion, I told him that despite our differences, I wanted him to know that he was safe working with me in the ring and that I had no problem whatsoever putting him over. Shawn’s exact words to me were, “I appreciate that, but I want you to know that I’m not willing to do the same thing for you.” This was just plain unprofessional. Putting him over would have condoned his disrespect, not just for me but for the honor of old school ways.

-----------

Now come on, why should Bret give a shit about Shawn?
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:20 AM   #13
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He didn't owe Shawn anything. It just so happened that Vince had Shawn in line to be the champion once Bret left. It was all between Bret and Vince. The fact that Bret hated Shawn so much would have just made Bret jobbing to him for Vince that much more respectful.

I'm not going to get into the whole HBK-Bret thing because no one here can possibly ever know all the details. And all the stuff HBK did on TV is just BS.

Eugene disrespected the French flag a few months back... THAT NICK DINSMORE IS A DICK!!!
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:21 AM   #14
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I missed the Confidential about this with HBK. He was indeed in on the whole thing correct?
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:22 AM   #15
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Yes, he admitted it.
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:27 AM   #16
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Fckkkkkk I clicked Bret. WTFFFFFF
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:29 AM   #17
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HOW COULD YOU MAKE THAT MISTAKE!?!?

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Old 07-14-2004, 03:34 AM   #18
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:54 AM   #19
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after all this time I have come to think in a way it's all 3 mens fault.

1. Vince for being that vindictive

2. Bret for not knowing better

3. Hbk for taking advantage of the whole sitiuation.
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:56 AM   #20
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well somewhere I read that bret only had creative control for the last 31 days of his contract.

Back to the point, its 50/50 between vince and Bret. Shawn should not even get a vote because he did what he was told.Even if he lied to Bret that he never knew from the start.
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:56 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike616
3. Hbk for taking advantage of the whole sitiuation.
How's that now?
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:56 AM   #22
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Oh and i voted for Vince anyhow.
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:06 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan
How's that now?
He knew of the problems Vince and Bret were having .
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
I knew I would have to argue things again.

Why should he put everything aside for Shawn though? It's like the old saying from the Bible, "Do unto others as they do unto you," HBK had been nothing but a selfish asshole to the Hitman. HBK came out with the "Sunny Days" remark on live TV implying Bret and Sunny had an affair, HBK flat out refused to job to Bret on a number of occassions, HBK called Stu "Dead" on live TV, HBK blatantly mocked the Canadian flag. And, Bret actually agreed to job to him, but Shawn said something disrespectful

Here, it was in that article:

In a conversation that I had with Shawn Michaels three weeks before Montreal, when I was champion, I told him that despite our differences, I wanted him to know that he was safe working with me in the ring and that I had no problem whatsoever putting him over. Shawn’s exact words to me were, “I appreciate that, but I want you to know that I’m not willing to do the same thing for you.” This was just plain unprofessional. Putting him over would have condoned his disrespect, not just for me but for the honor of old school ways.

-----------

Now come on, why should Bret give a shit about Shawn?
Ok now while I mostly agree. I do have to point out that I'm pretty sure the bible quote is: Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Which is basically treat others who you would want to be treated.
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:05 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan
He didn't owe Shawn anything. It just so happened that Vince had Shawn in line to be the champion once Bret left. It was all between Bret and Vince. The fact that Bret hated Shawn so much would have just made Bret jobbing to him for Vince that much more respectful.

I'm not going to get into the whole HBK-Bret thing because no one here can possibly ever know all the details. And all the stuff HBK did on TV is just BS.

Eugene disrespected the French flag a few months back... THAT NICK DINSMORE IS A DICK!!!
Fine, take out the Flag thing, but he's a dick for all those other things. I just don't see why you think Bret is at fault for this and not Vince. That's totally ridiculous. REMEMBER, BRET AGREED TO DROP THE TITLE TO SHAWN MONDAY ON RAW.
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:08 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Emily
Ok now while I mostly agree. I do have to point out that I'm pretty sure the bible quote is: Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Which is basically treat others who you would want to be treated.

Yeah, you're right. It was 2am and my brain got all mixed up from arguing this thing again.
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:09 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Lara Emily
Ok now while I mostly agree. I do have to point out that I'm pretty sure the bible quote is: Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Which is basically treat others who you would want to be treated.
Yeah, you're right. It was 2AM and I was typing really fast, so I just wrote anything that was close.
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:14 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
Fine, take out the Flag thing, but he's a dick for all those other things. I just don't see why you think Bret is at fault for this and not Vince. That's totally ridiculous. REMEMBER, BRET AGREED TO DROP THE TITLE TO SHAWN MONDAY ON RAW. And what do you mean all that stuff Shawn did on TV was BS. Do you condone Shawn lying about an affair on national TV for Bret's wife and kids to hear. I mean, come on. That's just way out of line.
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:26 AM   #29
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Blame can be placed on all three, but Vince has to take the majority. He didn't have to go out there and ring the bell himself...
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:31 AM   #30
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I'd put them all equally at fault.
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Old 07-14-2004, 10:46 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mackem
I'd put them all equally at fault.
I agree with this...but I voted Vince because I couldn't vote for both. As ,uch as I respect Bret, as he is my favourite wrestler, he should take some of the blame.
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Old 07-14-2004, 11:11 AM   #32
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Vince knew for a while that he was going to ask Bret to leave because he couldn't afford to pay him. Why didn't he have Bret drop the title weeks before Survivor Series? It wasn't like the day before Survivor Series that Bret was asked to leave, if i remember correctly, it was weeks before. Bret could have dropped the title to Shawn weeks before SS and everything would have been avoided. People say Vince is a genius, but i think he is a fk moron.
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Old 07-14-2004, 11:24 AM   #33
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Vince McMahhon is just an asshole, as is Shawn Michaels and his whole clique, just look at some of the past wrestlers, nearly everyone who had gone to WCW back then had spoken out against Vince McMahhon and the fact that he screws everyone over, this one falls right on Vince for organising the whole job, and Shawn Michaels for going through with it, which proves that he's a spoiled bitch with no backbone. What was really fucked up about the whole thing was how EVERYONE minus the other wrestlers were in on it, and not a single one of em had the balls to say anything. If what Bret Hart said was true however, I think Earl Hebner was the biggest dick of all, he told Bret that he'd never screw him and would rather be fired (somewhere along those lines) and just completely 180s his "close friend". People like that are the fuckin worst.
Last edited by RemyRedAssassin; 07-14-2004 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:09 PM   #34
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Speaking of this 'event', bought Wrestling with Shadows on dvd today.

And I saw Vince is to blame.
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:12 PM   #35
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Damn I've been looking for that DVD, did it really show Bret scream at Shawn and Hunter?
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:20 PM   #36
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Rock Bottom puts the "bang" in Bangladesh (30,000+)Rock Bottom puts the "bang" in Bangladesh (30,000+)Rock Bottom puts the "bang" in Bangladesh (30,000+)Rock Bottom puts the "bang" in Bangladesh (30,000+)Rock Bottom puts the "bang" in Bangladesh (30,000+)Rock Bottom puts the "bang" in Bangladesh (30,000+)Rock Bottom puts the "bang" in Bangladesh (30,000+)Rock Bottom puts the "bang" in Bangladesh (30,000+)Rock Bottom puts the "bang" in Bangladesh (30,000+)
I think it has to be God's fault since people are still arguing about it to this day.
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:43 PM   #37
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Yeah, if you haven't seen Wrestling With Shadows I more then highly suggest it. You'll get some interviews where Bret was wearing a wire talking to Vince and you can hear Bret lay out his proposed finish to the match and McMahon ageeing with him. This was right before the PPV.Then Bret goes and tells his wife and Bulldog that the match is going to end in a DQ. It's probably on Amazon if you want a copy.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:18 PM   #38
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As much of a Bret Hart fan that I am, I'd have to shift blame on him for the screwjob. The rule in wrestling is that if you are leaving or retiring, you put the other guy over. Doesn't matter if it is in your hometown or not, just put him over. What Bret wanted was selfish.

I'd also have to shift some blame onto Vince for the way he did it. I won't shift any blame for Shawn on this,as he was just doing what he was told. The problem I had with him was he lied to Bret for years. If it were the other way around, I bet Bret would've done the same thing as Michaels.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:51 PM   #39
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I voted for Vince but I feel that three men are all just about equally at fault. Vince for organising it, Bret for not doing the job and Shawn for agreeing to do the whole thing.
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Old 07-14-2004, 03:38 PM   #40
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