Have we jumped the gun? (Fucking Raw Spoiler)

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-18-2004, 08:54 PM

Is Orton still a HEEL?

Ive read a lot of what you guys have said about what happened on the latest RAW threat (mainly by CyNick) and how its shitty that Orton has turned FACE. Many questioned the intentions of Orton's opening promo where he degraded all of the "average" 24 year olds and the rest of the WWE fans. Why did the WWE have Orton do that if their intentions were to make him look simpathetic and turn him FACE at the end of the show due to Triple H's and Evolution's attack? It doesnt make sense to have Orton strike the fans and in one hour need the fans' support.

My question is... DOES the WWE WANT THE FANS SUPPORT FOR RANDY ORTON? Is Randy Orton a FACE or a HEEL?

Things that tell us he is a face is that he shook Benoit's hand after beating the Canadian Crippler at Summerslam for the title. And he was given the usual face beating by The Game, Nature Boy and the former Deacon.

Things that tell us he is still a heel is that he tore apart the fans again in the opening promo. He is incredibly OVER as a heel. But when he was given his walking papers by the hands of Evolution at the end of RAW, what during that segment should make us believe he turned face?
- That he bladed.
- That he was "left for dead" by his former friends.

To me, thats it. Nothing else suggests that he is a face. For what I know, he is still a cocky, arrogrant, thinks he is better than everyone else, World Heavyweight Champion. Would he garner the sympathy of the fans? Does he care about the fans? IMO, at this moment, he couldnt give a shit about the fans. He put us down on Monday Night.

What I'm saying is that I'm not sold on what happened on Monday Night to be sure that Orton turned face. I believe the WWE is a bit smarter than we think and realizes that Orton got to the dance by being a heel.

I believe that a HEEL vs HEEL, power struggle between the Champ and the Game would be compelling and awesome.

Bottom Line:
I believe that Randy Orton is still a heel (at worst a tweener, leaning to the heel side)

Thoughts? Additions or Subtractions? Is Randy Orton a HEEL

or has he turned FACE

V-1aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh

Any threads containing Raw Spoilers, must have a spoiler warning until Friday of that week, as the British Posters do not get to see it until then. - Funky

**King Jericho** · 08-18-2004, 09:01 PM

Spolier warning dude

Some good points, he needs to saty Heel imo.

**The Answer** · 08-18-2004, 09:03 PM

Very good post but since Evolution attacked Orton their will no doubt be a situation were Orton gets payback on them which will put him over as a face.I can see Trip having a match against Jericho or Benoit when suddenly Orton emerges from the crowd and nails trip with the RKO costing him the match.This will push him as a face.For the record I hope he stays a heel because his arrogance puts it over well.But I can't see it happening.My prediction:Edge joins Evolution,Benoit,Jericho and Orton battle the new Evolution

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-18-2004, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadManWalkin

Very good post but since Evolution attacked Orton their will no doubt be a situation were Orton gets payback which will put him over as a Face.I can see Trip having a match against Jericho or Benoit when suddenly Orton emerges from the crowd and nails trip with the RKO costing him the match.This will push him as a face

I see what you saying and I totally am expecting that match on RAW not this week but next week. (Since it is the typical WWE booking style) but I can see Orton coming out and becoming somewhat of Stone Cold Steve Austin and hitting the RKO on Triple H and Y2J/Benoit/whoever else and laying Trips' opponent on top of HHH.

I dunno, I dont see Orton as a face. They ruined John Cena by turning him face, how could they ruin another star.

**The Answer** · 08-18-2004, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude

I see what you saying and I totally am expecting that match on RAW not this week but next week. (Since it is the typical WWE booking style) but I can see Orton coming out and becoming somewhat of Stone Cold Steve Austin and hitting the RKO on Triple H and Y2J/Benoit/whoever else and laying Trips' opponent on top of HHH.

I dunno, I dont see Orton as a face. They ruined John Cena by turning him face, how could they ruin another star.

Cena was a good heel but he has recieved a much more significant push as a face.You really can't say the WWE changed Cena's gimmick.He's a rapper the fans were cheering him even when he was a heel because rapper's even though they insult tons of people are looked upon as cool.I witnessed this first hand as their were quite alot more Orton fans then Benout fans on Sunday at Summerslam me included.I would love to see Orton become some what of an Austin type but Orton has to make some allies to fight off trip and the rest of Evolution

**Shadow** · 08-18-2004, 09:08 PM

Well...here's the thing about Monday's show. It was at least a month's worth of storylines condenced down to one show. So its kinda hard to judge. Sure, in the begining of the show, Orton was a heel. But by the end, he got a beat down by his fellow heels. That probably means he'll be a face next week. Sucks but that's the way the WWE wants to go. Asses.

**DaveWadding** · 08-18-2004, 09:21 PM

What's so "fucking" about this?

PS: the Eagles suck.
PPS: So do their fans
PPPS: That means you.

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-18-2004, 09:30 PM

Dave Wadding

1) I didnt change the title

2) Your a f*g*t*. Eat shit.

3) Your opinion has as much significance as a fly on a mule's ass.

**The CyNick** · 08-18-2004, 09:59 PM

Well first off, heel vs heel matches hardly ever work. The crowd usually craps on it, because they have nobody to cheer for.

I dont expect Orton to come out next week and say "I love you fans because I got my ass beat". But what will happen is that he'll catch a bunch of beatdowns from Evo and likely Benoit and other faces will try to help him. This will make him by default a babyface, but I'm not so sure he'll be a successful face.

The other thing is that when Evo does beat him down thats a heel move (3 on 1), they are acting like cowards and bullies. There is very little that Orton could do in a 3 on 1 situation to make himself a heel. For example, using a weapon is justifiable because he's out numbered. So the only thing he would have left would be to insult the crowd, but then if he does that it will make Evo babyfaces for laying him out all the time.

By the very nature of pro wrestling one guy has to play babyface.

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-18-2004, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The CyNick

Well first off, heel vs heel matches hardly ever work. The crowd usually craps on it, because they have nobody to cheer for.

I dont expect Orton to come out next week and say "I love you fans because I got my ass beat". But what will happen is that he'll catch a bunch of beatdowns from Evo and likely Benoit and other faces will try to help him. This will make him by default a babyface, but I'm not so sure he'll be a successful face.

I agree with the heel vs heel matches hardly work but in this case the fans would cheer for Orton because we love Orton. Just because we love Orton (playing the heel, mind you) doesnt mean you have to turn him face. We love Orton because he is such a great heel.

Bottom Line:
heel HHH vs heel Orton would work because Orton is loved as a heel.

**The CyNick** · 08-18-2004, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude

I agree with the heel vs heel matches hardly work but in this case the fans would cheer for Orton because we love Orton. Just because we love Orton (playing the heel, mind you) doesnt mean you have to turn him face. We love Orton because he is such a great heel.

Bottom Line:
heel HHH vs heel Orton would work because Orton is loved as a heel.

But if Orton remains a heel that means he can continue to mock the audience right?

**Sensei Of Mattitude** · 08-18-2004, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The CyNick

But if Orton remains a heel that means he can continue to mock the audience right?

Isnt that what a heel does?

Maybe Im not understanding you comment.

**Innovator** · 08-18-2004, 10:26 PM

He only knocked 24 year old guys, everyone is cool by him

**ColdwaVer** · 08-18-2004, 10:34 PM

Orton is now a face.

1) He won a World Title match cleanly, with no interference from the guys who would usually interfere on his behalf.
2) He shook the hand of his opponent after said title win.
3) His heel associates (including the biggest heel in recent WWE history) decimated him in the middle of the ring.

Therefore Orton is now a face. He could make it a short-lived face run if he shows up on Raw and acts the heel, but at this moment in time, the Legend Killer is being presented as a face.

**HeartBreakMan2k** · 08-19-2004, 12:31 AM

Flat out, Orton is stuck as a tweener for at least a few weeks. At this point, he can't become a face without an association. He'll need Benoit and HBK. HBK is probably his best bet to get over through association, as to the fans HBK can do no wrong (unless WWE is in Canada)

**Kane Knight** · 08-19-2004, 12:47 AM

Let's put it this way. Evolution are booked as the top heels in the WWE.

Well, least on Raw.

Orton's now going against the heels.

Orton's now in a situation where he's a de facto face. He's not a babyface, but it's a stepping stone for him to become one, because he's gonna be fighting the bad guys.

**Splaya** · 08-19-2004, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kane Knight

Let's put it this way. Evolution are booked as the top heels in the WWE.

Well, least on Raw.

Orton's now going against the heels.

Orton's now in a situation where he's a de facto face. He's not a babyface, but it's a stepping stone for him to become one, because he's gonna be fighting the bad guys.

These comments make everyone else's posts after this one (including my own) absoultely pointless as you nailed it on the head.

**Mayo** · 08-19-2004, 01:39 AM

Orton was still acting like a heel at the beginning of Raw because he had no idea that Evolution was going to kick his ass. He had to stay in character for this to happen, and so this is why he mocked the crowd and still acted like a cocky bastard. I believe that he is a technically a face since he will now go against Evolution, but he will most likely still have some heelish tendencies.

**Splaya** · 08-19-2004, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayo

Orton was still acting like a heel at the beginning of Raw because he had no idea that Evolution was going to kick his ass. He had to stay in character for this to happen, and so this is why he mocked the crowd and still acted like a cocky bastard. I believe that he is a technically a face since he will now go against Evolution, but he will most likely still have some heelish tendencies.

That's what Jericho has done lately.

**Kane Knight** · 08-19-2004, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayo

Orton was still acting like a heel at the beginning of Raw because he had no idea that Evolution was going to kick his ass. He had to stay in character for this to happen, and so this is why he mocked the crowd and still acted like a cocky bastard. I believe that he is a technically a face since he will now go against Evolution, but he will most likely still have some heelish tendencies.

Actually, Orton didn't HAVE to act heelish still. Had he come out and appealled to the crowd, it would have helped sell Evolution's "turn" on him. The whole "You're nothing without us!" stuff would still work.

I'm not saying they shoudl have, just that they could have.

**Jaded-Dragon** · 08-19-2004, 02:00 AM

Not that this has anything to do with anything, but.....

While I was reading through the posts on here I was reminded of when The Rock was a huge heel, and everyone started to realize just how great he was and started cheering him anyway.

So then the WWF pushed him as a face.... or so we thought.

And it all came to a head at Survivor Series '98, when it was revealed that The Rock, was still a heel. That was a great work

**Mr. Nerfect** · 08-19-2004, 05:50 AM

Jaded-Dragon brings up a good point. I can see Orton coming out next RAW and calling out Triple H and getting in his face, before offering his title back. Triple H takes it then everyone is pissed. Triple H is the World Heavyweight Champion, Orton is acting like a doormat, etc. I don't like that idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if something like this happened.

Another angle I can see happening is Orton pretending to be the "Lone Wolf who doesn't bite", who plays with Evolution over coming weeks, slowly getting a fanbase, before returning in a match against Triple H. Orton, Flair and Batista then beat down Triple H leaving him out of Evolution. Next event Evoultion (Orton's version) are in the ring and they talk about how Triple H slowly became the past while Orton became the present. A has-been like Hunter should never even be in Evolution's league, as he was only an 8-time Heavyweight Champion, while Naitch was double that. Evoultion act all snug as they rip into how Triple H had been left behind by Evolution, just as Shawn Michaels had, and many others had. They talk about how Triple H is outnumbered and will probably never be able to show his afec again.

"Time to Play The Game", and Triple H marches to the ring with a purpose. Orton looks shocked, Flair looks angry and Batista looks excited as Hunter marches to the ring. He takes his jacket off when he gets closer revealing he has a sledgehammer, Evolution freak out and bail when Triple H enters the ring psychotically. By now the fans should be going wild.

So basically Evolution is Orton, Flair and Batista and maybe a new member. I'm thinking along the lines of Edge, Christian, Shawn Michaels or The Rock. While Triple H remains the psychotic anti-hero. The people cheer The Game ebcause they no it will not be pretty what he does to his opponent. Basically they could have both JR and King talk about how they don't like this guy, and how they feel unsafe working with him. He doesn't actually change his character, but basically how much he fights to be at the top, and how he enters matches like the 3 Stages of Hell, Hell in a Cell, tec. just to fight comes into the foreground.

Or they could simply have Orton bring in a bodyguard to help him against Evolution so he doesn't need to go "Stone Cold" on us.

**Rock Bottom** · 08-19-2004, 05:51 AM

Either that, or Orton comes back as Evolution's bitch-boy and apologizes for his "insolence." Don't be surprised if it happens. If they wanted to turn him face they wouldn't have him cutting this anti-24-year-old promo. I am thinking they're going to tease at him being a face, after taking Evolution's shit for a while.

**RGWhat316** · 08-19-2004, 06:30 PM

Well, this is definitely going to be an interesting storyline over the next few weeks. But as I said on the RAW thread, the night that John Cena turned face, he also made fun of face wrestlers and the crowd before it happened. So this whole deal that Orton made fun of the fans will not let a face turn happen. Lets just see what happens in the coming weeks.

08-18-2004, 08:54 PM	#1
Sensei Of Mattitude I'd Do It For the Story Posts: 491	Have we jumped the gun? (Fucking Raw Spoiler) Is Orton still a HEEL? Ive read a lot of what you guys have said about what happened on the latest RAW threat (mainly by CyNick) and how its shitty that Orton has turned FACE. Many questioned the intentions of Orton's opening promo where he degraded all of the "average" 24 year olds and the rest of the WWE fans. Why did the WWE have Orton do that if their intentions were to make him look simpathetic and turn him FACE at the end of the show due to Triple H's and Evolution's attack? It doesnt make sense to have Orton strike the fans and in one hour need the fans' support. My question is... DOES the WWE WANT THE FANS SUPPORT FOR RANDY ORTON? Is Randy Orton a FACE or a HEEL? Things that tell us he is a face is that he shook Benoit's hand after beating the Canadian Crippler at Summerslam for the title. And he was given the usual face beating by The Game, Nature Boy and the former Deacon. Things that tell us he is still a heel is that he tore apart the fans again in the opening promo. He is incredibly OVER as a heel. But when he was given his walking papers by the hands of Evolution at the end of RAW, what during that segment should make us believe he turned face? - That he bladed. - That he was "left for dead" by his former friends. To me, thats it. Nothing else suggests that he is a face. For what I know, he is still a cocky, arrogrant, thinks he is better than everyone else, World Heavyweight Champion. Would he garner the sympathy of the fans? Does he care about the fans? IMO, at this moment, he couldnt give a shit about the fans. He put us down on Monday Night. What I'm saying is that I'm not sold on what happened on Monday Night to be sure that Orton turned face. I believe the WWE is a bit smarter than we think and realizes that Orton got to the dance by being a heel. I believe that a HEEL vs HEEL, power struggle between the Champ and the Game would be compelling and awesome. Bottom Line: I believe that Randy Orton is still a heel (at worst a tweener, leaning to the heel side) Thoughts? Additions or Subtractions? Is Randy Orton a HEEL or has he turned FACE V-1aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh Any threads containing Raw Spoilers, must have a spoiler warning until Friday of that week, as the British Posters do not get to see it until then. - Funky ARE YOU READY? I said, ARE YOU READY!?!?!? Then, for the thousands in attendance and the millions watching around on cable television.... LET'S GET READY TO SSSSSSSSSUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKK IIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!! and if you're not down with that, we got two words for ya.........SUCK IT! Last edited by Funky Fly; 08-18-2004 at 09:17 PM.

08-18-2004, 09:01 PM	#2
King Jericho Wii :love: Posts: 3,915	Spolier warning dude Some good points, he needs to saty Heel imo.

08-18-2004, 09:03 PM	#3
The Answer R.I.P Eddie Guerrero Posts: 3,553	Very good post but since Evolution attacked Orton their will no doubt be a situation were Orton gets payback on them which will put him over as a face.I can see Trip having a match against Jericho or Benoit when suddenly Orton emerges from the crowd and nails trip with the RKO costing him the match.This will push him as a face.For the record I hope he stays a heel because his arrogance puts it over well.But I can't see it happening.My prediction:Edge joins Evolution,Benoit,Jericho and Orton battle the new Evolution

08-18-2004, 09:08 PM	#6
Shadow Shadow Conspircy leader Posts: 18,582	Well...here's the thing about Monday's show. It was at least a month's worth of storylines condenced down to one show. So its kinda hard to judge. Sure, in the begining of the show, Orton was a heel. But by the end, he got a beat down by his fellow heels. That probably means he'll be a face next week. Sucks but that's the way the WWE wants to go. Asses.

08-18-2004, 09:21 PM	#7
DaveWadding LIMITLESS Posts: 32,276	What's so "fucking" about this? PS: the Eagles suck. PPS: So do their fans PPPS: That means you.

08-18-2004, 09:30 PM	#8
Sensei Of Mattitude I'd Do It For the Story Posts: 491	Dave Wadding 1) I didnt change the title 2) Your a fgt*. Eat shit. 3) Your opinion has as much significance as a fly on a mule's ass.

08-18-2004, 09:59 PM	#9
The CyNick Make the IWC Great Again Posts: 8,922	Well first off, heel vs heel matches hardly ever work. The crowd usually craps on it, because they have nobody to cheer for. I dont expect Orton to come out next week and say "I love you fans because I got my ass beat". But what will happen is that he'll catch a bunch of beatdowns from Evo and likely Benoit and other faces will try to help him. This will make him by default a babyface, but I'm not so sure he'll be a successful face. The other thing is that when Evo does beat him down thats a heel move (3 on 1), they are acting like cowards and bullies. There is very little that Orton could do in a 3 on 1 situation to make himself a heel. For example, using a weapon is justifiable because he's out numbered. So the only thing he would have left would be to insult the crowd, but then if he does that it will make Evo babyfaces for laying him out all the time. By the very nature of pro wrestling one guy has to play babyface.

08-18-2004, 10:26 PM	#13
Innovator Inno Knows. Posts: 43,710	He only knocked 24 year old guys, everyone is cool by him

08-18-2004, 10:34 PM	#14
ColdwaVer Darth Teedious Posts: 4,634	Orton is now a face. 1) He won a World Title match cleanly, with no interference from the guys who would usually interfere on his behalf. 2) He shook the hand of his opponent after said title win. 3) His heel associates (including the biggest heel in recent WWE history) decimated him in the middle of the ring. Therefore Orton is now a face. He could make it a short-lived face run if he shows up on Raw and acts the heel, but at this moment in time, the Legend Killer is being presented as a face.

08-19-2004, 12:31 AM	#15
HeartBreakMan2k Franchise of TPWW Posts: 15,458	Flat out, Orton is stuck as a tweener for at least a few weeks. At this point, he can't become a face without an association. He'll need Benoit and HBK. HBK is probably his best bet to get over through association, as to the fans HBK can do no wrong (unless WWE is in Canada)

08-19-2004, 12:47 AM	#16
Kane Knight Ron Paul 4 EVA Posts: 152,467	Let's put it this way. Evolution are booked as the top heels in the WWE. Well, least on Raw. Orton's now going against the heels. Orton's now in a situation where he's a de facto face. He's not a babyface, but it's a stepping stone for him to become one, because he's gonna be fighting the bad guys.

08-19-2004, 01:39 AM	#18
Mayo not gayo Posts: 7,676	Orton was still acting like a heel at the beginning of Raw because he had no idea that Evolution was going to kick his ass. He had to stay in character for this to happen, and so this is why he mocked the crowd and still acted like a cocky bastard. I believe that he is a technically a face since he will now go against Evolution, but he will most likely still have some heelish tendencies.

08-19-2004, 02:00 AM	#21
Jaded-Dragon That Guy Posts: 420	Not that this has anything to do with anything, but..... While I was reading through the posts on here I was reminded of when The Rock was a huge heel, and everyone started to realize just how great he was and started cheering him anyway. So then the WWF pushed him as a face.... or so we thought. And it all came to a head at Survivor Series '98, when it was revealed that The Rock, was still a heel. That was a great work

08-19-2004, 05:50 AM	#22
Mr. Nerfect Posts: 61,523	Jaded-Dragon brings up a good point. I can see Orton coming out next RAW and calling out Triple H and getting in his face, before offering his title back. Triple H takes it then everyone is pissed. Triple H is the World Heavyweight Champion, Orton is acting like a doormat, etc. I don't like that idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if something like this happened. Another angle I can see happening is Orton pretending to be the "Lone Wolf who doesn't bite", who plays with Evolution over coming weeks, slowly getting a fanbase, before returning in a match against Triple H. Orton, Flair and Batista then beat down Triple H leaving him out of Evolution. Next event Evoultion (Orton's version) are in the ring and they talk about how Triple H slowly became the past while Orton became the present. A has-been like Hunter should never even be in Evolution's league, as he was only an 8-time Heavyweight Champion, while Naitch was double that. Evoultion act all snug as they rip into how Triple H had been left behind by Evolution, just as Shawn Michaels had, and many others had. They talk about how Triple H is outnumbered and will probably never be able to show his afec again. "Time to Play The Game", and Triple H marches to the ring with a purpose. Orton looks shocked, Flair looks angry and Batista looks excited as Hunter marches to the ring. He takes his jacket off when he gets closer revealing he has a sledgehammer, Evolution freak out and bail when Triple H enters the ring psychotically. By now the fans should be going wild. So basically Evolution is Orton, Flair and Batista and maybe a new member. I'm thinking along the lines of Edge, Christian, Shawn Michaels or The Rock. While Triple H remains the psychotic anti-hero. The people cheer The Game ebcause they no it will not be pretty what he does to his opponent. Basically they could have both JR and King talk about how they don't like this guy, and how they feel unsafe working with him. He doesn't actually change his character, but basically how much he fights to be at the top, and how he enters matches like the 3 Stages of Hell, Hell in a Cell, tec. just to fight comes into the foreground. Or they could simply have Orton bring in a bodyguard to help him against Evolution so he doesn't need to go "Stone Cold" on us.

08-19-2004, 05:51 AM	#23
Rock Bottom Ball So Hard University Posts: 8,450	Either that, or Orton comes back as Evolution's bitch-boy and apologizes for his "insolence." Don't be surprised if it happens. If they wanted to turn him face they wouldn't have him cutting this anti-24-year-old promo. I am thinking they're going to tease at him being a face, after taking Evolution's shit for a while.

08-19-2004, 06:30 PM	#24
RGWhat316 YesYesYes! Posts: 4,163	Well, this is definitely going to be an interesting storyline over the next few weeks. But as I said on the RAW thread, the night that John Cena turned face, he also made fun of face wrestlers and the crowd before it happened. So this whole deal that Orton made fun of the fans will not let a face turn happen. Lets just see what happens in the coming weeks.