Puder Almost Owned Angle.

[Loose Cannon]

News Derived From: Jason Powell & Torch VIP


Kurt Angle was said to be "ticked off" backstage at SmackDown after nearly being forced to tap out to Tough Enough contestant Daniel Puder. The unscripted nature of the contest is the main reason as to why Angle looked so bad, as Puder just reacted to the situation and could have forced Angle to submit had the referees not thought and acted quickly and counted a pin that wasn't there on Puder. While there are many backstage who haven't been fans of Angle's politics as of late, the general feeling is that the company is putting the workers in bad situations by having them participate in "shoot" scenarios, like Angle and Big Show have done in the last two weeks.

------------------------------------
- As Scott Williams reported earlier, Kurt Angle found himself in quite the position while wrestling current Tough Enough contestant Daniel Puder on SmackDown this past week. Puder applied a keylock submission hold on Angle while lying on his back. The referee counted to three despite Puder's shoulders not being down for the entire count - a move many feel was done so Angle didn't have to tap out. Puder has competed in mixed martial arts competitions before and for him to put a former Olympic champion such as Angle in a position that would see him possibly submit is quite an accomplishment. Many feel as a result of this taking place that Angle will be ribbed in the back for years to come.

It should be noted that many SmackDown workers probably would have loved to have seen Angle tap out on TV as he is reportedly continuing to lose respect among many and be known as a "political backstabber." One WWE worker even went on record to say that when Angle first entered the business he appeared to be happy and willing to learn, but has since learned how to play the "political game" after being in the company for many years. Some have even blamed Angle for Eddie Guerrero's decreased role in the company as of late, although others say the blame for that falls squarely on Guerrero himself due to his recent behavior.

[Loose Cannon]

I would pay to see a match between those two

[CosaNostra]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon I would pay to see a match between those two

Yeah, Puder brings a lot to the game. He's not just some prelim scrub off the street. Even if he doesn't win TE, I hope that the OVW takes a serious look at developing him.

[Funky Fly]

ROFL

I love that Puder guy. They would have to be retarded not to fix it so that he wins. He could be a great stoic face (Benoitish) or psychotic heel (Heidenreich avec talent).

[Mayo]

So this is the second guy that Angle fought? He's the guy from UFC, correct? That is very surprising after all of the training that those guys did (if it was real). Angle needs to stop playing the politics game; however, I would also be pissed if I was put in his situation this past week where someone of his caliber almost had to tap out to a new guy.

[V]

maybe angle didn't want to hurt the guy, but the feeling wasn't mutual

angle could probobly whoop that guys ass

[SuperSlim]

regardless that is priceless. Puder better win this thing

[Thriller]

I hear Pruder was an Ultimate fighter

[RemyRed]

Good to see Angle be brought down a few pegs.

"YOU WERE IN UFC RIGHT!? YOU THINK YOU CAN TAKE ON AN OLYMPIC ATHLETE!?!?!?"

[CosaNostra]

Originally Posted by Gohan3k maybe angle didn't want to hurt the guy, but the feeling wasn't mutual angle could probobly whoop that guys ass

I seriously doubt it. Kurt Angle has a lot, and I mean A LOT of athletic gifts, but for him to go in the ring for real against a seasoned UFC fighter like Puder, well, it wouldn't be pretty for Angle.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think if Angle felt like tapping he should have tapped. If Puder can really go toe to toe with him, then Angle should have done him honours (even if he is not established). The place would have blown off if Puder got a submission win over Angle in his debut match in about 41 secs.

[CosaNostra]

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 I think if Angle felt like tapping he should have tapped. If Puder can really go toe to toe with him, then Angle should have done him honours (even if he is not established). The place would have blown off if Puder got a submission win over Angle in his debut match in about 41 secs.

No, I think the way way it was handled was the way to go. Obviously the WWE is not the UFC. Can you imagine how it would look for Angle and his WWE credibility for him to be tapping out to a rookie, let alone someone who is not even that yet?

Not good.

[Mayo]

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 I think if Angle felt like tapping he should have tapped. If Puder can really go toe to toe with him, then Angle should have done him honours (even if he is not established). The place would have blown off if Puder got a submission win over Angle in his debut match in about 41 secs.

And with that, you make Kurt Angle look like a worthless pylon, make the Tough Enough contest practically over, and get the whole locker room pissed off with Vince. Good scenario.

[RemyRed]

Why would they be pissed with Vince? Angle asked who wants to go in the ring next, and the guy was better than him. Not Vince's fault, unless it wasn't a shoot scenario.

[The CyNick]

If they really wanted to do that angle, they should do it with someone who has name value like Ortiz or Bob Sapp.

Anyway, Puder was unporfessional for going after Angle like that (its wrestling not MMA). But I guess he doesn't know any better.

On the plus side for Puder, this segment may actually be enough to win him the competition.

Something like that wouldn't have happened on Raw.

[Mayo]

Originally Posted by RemyRedAssassin Why would they be pissed with Vince? Angle asked who wants to go in the ring next, and the guy was better than him. Not Vince's fault, unless it wasn't a shoot scenario.

Vince is the one that arranged these shoot scenarios, and there is a kind of code of the locker room where you have to earn your place on the roster. It would be very demeaning to all the guys in the back if arguably the best wrestler on Smackdown got taken to school by a new guy. Wrestling is fake (for the most part), and UFC very much real fighting. Vince may have underestimated Puder's talents, overestimated Kurt Angle's, or it didn't even cross his mind at all, but I am sure that he now realizes how bad it would make Angle look if he got taken to school.

[Mr. Nerfect]

But I think the fans are smart enough to tell a wreslting match form a short fight between two guys. Kurt is a wrestler, the WWE could argue he was stepping into Daniel Puder's territory.

I don't think Daniel should hide how dangerous he really is, simply because that's the only thing going for him. I can't explain it, but I think that Puder (who rolls people around and makes them submit as a passtime), should be able to do what he can do, because he can do it. Say The Big Show was in this contest. Should he be allowed to lift Angle up in the air? He can do it, it's physically possible, and he's had the training to do it. I would say go for it. Puder has the skills to rip a man's arm out of its socket. Why should the WWE downplay this?

The WWE make all their guys look like gladiators, granted, but I think there should be a realistic sense, especially in a reality contest. If Puder can make an Olympic Gold Medalist tap, then fine, let him show us. I really think it doesn't make Angle look weak, I think it just shows us that these skills are real. That submission moves we see in the ring every week are real, and they do hurt. It is possible to make any human tap to them, and make any human scream with them. I don't see why this should be hidden by the WWE, because it is a straight up fact.

[RP]

I think they should of had angle tap personally. Puder will probably win and if not he will probably be on the roster regaurdless. Could be a great way to give the kid a major push. Start a angle with Kurt when he get polished. I agree with aleniod. I dont think it makes kurt look bad. I think he shoulda tapped . The positives would have been future storylines with Puder. I look at it as a missed oppurtunity .

[Corkscrewed]

There are tons of WWE wrestlers who haven't made Angle tap. Having some kid do it would be really stupid and ruin everything. Great thinking by the refs to count the threecount, even if he did kick out.

I don't like the sound of Angle playing politics, though. If that's true, that brings my respect for him way down, because that just means he's turning into another HHH.

[darkpower]

This is the first time I heard of the politics game that Angle has been accused of playing, and I think it could be because someone else may be hanging around the locker room that Angle is getting the influence from (*coughTripleHcough*), so I wouldn't put that blame on him.

But to Puder, if he was in the UFC, the guy may be able to kill someone, even, because of how good those guys can be if allowed to be. Plus I think they wanted a message to be learned by everyone in the TE competiton (have you seen ANYONE in this program that has shown ANY respect to the "kids" just yet? Even Al Snow seems to not want to show it). First Big Show, now Angle. Toughest TE competiton yet, I suppose...to get some kind of respect.

By the way, anyone have any news on that Brian guy who got his shoulder injured and still went to train on that second day? I would really like to know how his OVW deal is going on (they gave it to him because they had to cut him from TE due to injury).

[Funky Fly]

Originally Posted by darkpower This is the first time I heard of the politics game that Angle has been accused of playing, and I think it could be because someone else may be hanging around the locker room that Angle is getting the influence from (*coughTripleHcough*), so I wouldn't put that blame on him. But to Puder, if he was in the UFC, the guy may be able to kill someone, even, because of how good those guys can be if allowed to be. Plus I think they wanted a message to be learned by everyone in the TE competiton (have you seen ANYONE in this program that has shown ANY respect to the "kids" just yet? Even Al Snow seems to not want to show it). First Big Show, now Angle. Toughest TE competiton yet, I suppose...to get some kind of respect. By the way, anyone have any news on that Brian guy who got his shoulder injured and still went to train on that second day? I would really like to know how his OVW deal is going on (they gave it to him because they had to cut him from TE due to injury).

He is probably recuperating right now. Probably won't start for a few months.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Funky Fly He is probably recuperating right now. Probably won't start for a few months.

I hope we get to see him get into at least an OVW ring soon, then. If he can wrestle as good as he can push himself, they may have a perfect WWE star in maybe a year or so, if they can get him going that quickly.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Corkscrewed There are tons of WWE wrestlers who haven't made Angle tap. Having some kid do it would be really stupid and ruin everything. Great thinking by the refs to count the threecount, even if he did kick out.

That's a good point, props to the refs.

I hope that if Puder gets a contract he doesn't use a finisher to win his matches, he beats his opponent's with anything. Suplexes, high flying moves, power moves, etc. Mayb give him a finisher like the Emerald Fusion or somehting as a "supreme" move, but have everything this kid does as a finisher.

[Funky Fly]

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 but have everything this kid does as a finisher.

That wouldn't really work unless he has some kind of Goldberg gimmick. It makes him look pussy by not being able to do powerful finisher moves effectively.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Funky Fly That wouldn't really work unless he has some kind of Goldberg gimmick. It makes him look pussy by not being able to do powerful finisher moves effectively.

I know what you mean, but I'm talking sharp painful looking moves, etc. Like an exploder suplex out of nowhere. Or maybe an Exploder '98? Maybe have him bridge over after hitting a Tiger Driver on occassion. Just like his whole moveset be sold like death sentences.

[Funky Fly]

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 I know what you mean, but I'm talking sharp painful looking moves, etc. Like an exploder suplex out of nowhere. Or maybe an Exploder '98? Maybe have him bridge over after hitting a Tiger Driver on occassion. Just like his whole moveset be sold like death sentences.

Now you are talking. A moveset like that makes people mark like crazy.

Sounds like ECW Taz.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Funky Fly Now you are talking. A moveset like that makes people mark like crazy. Sounds like ECW Taz.

Just don't let him do the same moves in every match, and make him mix them up somehow, so that people won't get bored with him like they did with Goldberg.

And why do I have the feeling that he may be cut anyway for some reason? Maybe the WWE got too scared with a green person almost killing a main eventer's cred.

[Took]

Originally Posted by CosaNostra I seriously doubt it. Kurt Angle has a lot, and I mean A LOT of athletic gifts, but for him to go in the ring for real against a seasoned UFC fighter like Puder, well, it wouldn't be pretty for Angle.

Are you nuts??

It was a bitch move by Puder for one key reason -- it wasn't an MMA match, it was a WRESTLING match.
If any of you've ever wrestled, the point is to get the guy on his back. Therefore, Kurt Angle was not working to make the kid submit or even to hurt the kid. He was trying to take him down and pin him. The kid knew he was going down, panicked, and slapped on a keylock. The pin was not "sloppy" as Kel said -- the kid's shoulders were down, period.

Further, even if they did have a shootfight and Puder did slap on the Keylock, there were at least three ways for Angle to escape, ways that any amateur wrestler even knows. First, and most logical, was driving the right knee into the ribs two or three times (the kid did NOT have the lower body scissored properly). Secondly, Angle could've attempted to roll out of it. THird, he could've switched his upper body and applied a crude heel hook or thrown elbows to compliment the knees.

Look at the footage -- Angle EASILY guards his arm from the keylock until they GET to the mat. If he had remained standing, his superior strength would've stopped the kid from applying the hold. Angle's objective was pining him, and he did, and he ######ing SLAUGHTERED him.

In all likelihood, they didn't inform the kid that it was a wrestling match. Otherwise, it was a ###### move that should get him kicked out of the contest.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Took Are you nuts?? It was a bitch move by Puder for one key reason -- it wasn't an MMA match, it was a WRESTLING match. If any of you've ever wrestled, the point is to get the guy on his back. Therefore, Kurt Angle was not working to make the kid submit or even to hurt the kid. He was trying to take him down and pin him. The kid knew he was going down, panicked, and slapped on a keylock. The pin was not "sloppy" as Kel said -- the kid's shoulders were down, period. Further, even if they did have a shootfight and Puder did slap on the Keylock, there were at least three ways for Angle to escape, ways that any amateur wrestler even knows. First, and most logical, was driving the right knee into the ribs two or three times (the kid did NOT have the lower body scissored properly). Secondly, Angle could've attempted to roll out of it. THird, he could've switched his upper body and applied a crude heel hook or thrown elbows to compliment the knees. Look at the footage -- Angle EASILY guards his arm from the keylock until they GET to the mat. If he had remained standing, his superior strength would've stopped the kid from applying the hold. Angle's objective was pining him, and he did, and he ######ing SLAUGHTERED him. In all likelihood, they didn't inform the kid that it was a wrestling match. Otherwise, it was a ###### move that should get him kicked out of the contest.

-- PLEASE tell me you're kidding here.

The guy EASILY had Angle going there.

And WTF with slaughtered? I didn't see Angle slaughter him at all.

We're talking about Daniel Puder, not the guy that won the "contest" before Puder got in there.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Took Are you nuts?? It was a bitch move by Puder for one key reason -- it wasn't an MMA match, it was a WRESTLING match. If any of you've ever wrestled, the point is to get the guy on his back. Therefore, Kurt Angle was not working to make the kid submit or even to hurt the kid. He was trying to take him down and pin him. The kid knew he was going down, panicked, and slapped on a keylock. The pin was not "sloppy" as Kel said -- the kid's shoulders were down, period. Further, even if they did have a shootfight and Puder did slap on the Keylock, there were at least three ways for Angle to escape, ways that any amateur wrestler even knows. First, and most logical, was driving the right knee into the ribs two or three times (the kid did NOT have the lower body scissored properly). Secondly, Angle could've attempted to roll out of it. THird, he could've switched his upper body and applied a crude heel hook or thrown elbows to compliment the knees. Look at the footage -- Angle EASILY guards his arm from the keylock until they GET to the mat. If he had remained standing, his superior strength would've stopped the kid from applying the hold. Angle's objective was pining him, and he did, and he ######ing SLAUGHTERED him. In all likelihood, they didn't inform the kid that it was a wrestling match. Otherwise, it was a ###### move that should get him kicked out of the contest.

You sound like you know what you're talking about, but wrestling is about submission wrestling as well. And if Kurt could have gotten out of it (even though he didn't), why did he go complaining to Vince? I'mnot taking anything away form Kurt, but I think Daniel could hold his own.

I don't have the footage on me, but I think it is quite possible the pin wasn't a clean three. Puder would have thrown all his weight around to get out, and that probably would have gotten his hsoulders off the canvas at least once in three seconds.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 You sound like you know what you're talking about, but wrestling is about submission wrestling as well. And if Kurt could have gotten out of it (even though he didn't), why did he go complaining to Vince? I'mnot taking anything away form Kurt, but I think Daniel could hold his own. I don't have the footage on me, but I think it is quite possible the pin wasn't a clean three. Puder would have thrown all his weight around to get out, and that probably would have gotten his hsoulders off the canvas at least once in three seconds.

And I rep thou poster for making excellent point.

[Head]

The point of a wrestling match isn't at all to make your opponent submit, it's to score points of them, or pin them. And in a real wrestling match, somebody's shoulders don't even have to be on the mat for 3 seconds, they just have to firmly be there long enough for the ref to slap the mat once.

[Head]

Does anybody have the video of this? I missed it.

[Gerard]

Puders shoulders were not down for the three count, shit even my mom was watching and she said his shoulders aren't on the mat.

Shut up about politic bitching.

If you want to get ahead in this World, you need to play politics.

I guess you guys are happy getting paid minimum wage at Burger King, but that's okay I need someone to make my food for me.

[Stickman]

I'd like to see the footage too so if somebody has it, please post it here.

My take on what I've read in this thread so far:

There was a shoot match between Kurt and this UFC guy. I would assume the UFC guy had no idea what he was supposed to do. Somebody told him "shoot fight" so he did what he knows best. Kurt should be mad that the match wasn't fixed or be mad that nobody said how it was supposed to work to the new guy.

I don't think this guy should be punished either. I mean, Ken Shamrock would have done the same thing when he started.

[Jonster]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Some have even blamed Angle for Eddie Guerrero's decreased role in the company as of late, although others say the blame for that falls squarely on Guerrero himself due to his recent behavior.

What recent behavior?

[Funky Fly]

Originally Posted by Jonster What recent behavior?

He's practically having a nervous breakdown.

[CosaNostra]

Originally Posted by Took Are you nuts?? It was a bitch move by Puder for one key reason -- it wasn't an MMA match, it was a WRESTLING match

So it was. And yet the idea was to test the contestants. If Angle wants to play teacher, thats fine, but he shouldn't be complaining when the student teaches him a lesson. Its not as if Puder is unschooeld or anything, as Angle should have been aware.

Originally Posted by Took If any of you've ever wrestled, the point is to get the guy on his back. Therefore, Kurt Angle was not working to make the kid submit or even to hurt the kid. He was trying to take him down and pin him. The kid knew he was going down, panicked, and slapped on a keylock. The pin was not "sloppy" as Kel said -- the kid's shoulders were down, period.

I have wrestled. However, the point is that this was supposed to be a professional wrestling match. Submission as well as pins are part of the gambit as you well know. For Puder not to utilize all his skills in order to prove himself would be foolish; as was Angle's subsequent whining.

Originally Posted by Took Further, even if they did have a shootfight and Puder did slap on the Keylock, there were at least three ways for Angle to escape, ways that any amateur wrestler even knows. First, and most logical, was driving the right knee into the ribs two or three times (the kid did NOT have the lower body scissored properly). Secondly, Angle could've attempted to roll out of it. THird, he could've switched his upper body and applied a crude heel hook or thrown elbows to compliment the knees.

An amateur wrestler driving his knees into the midsection? Throwing elbows?This is the first I've heard of those high school/college/Olympic wrestling techniques. Is that a lost branch of logical Greco-Roman wrestling that I missed out on?

Originally Posted by Took Look at the footage -- Angle EASILY guards his arm from the keylock until they GET to the mat. If he had remained standing, his superior strength would've stopped the kid from applying the hold. Angle's objective was pining him, and he did, and he ######ing SLAUGHTERED him.

Hardly that. At all. I saw the same tape. It was a save by the referee.

Originally Posted by Took In all likelihood, they didn't inform the kid that it was a wrestling match. Otherwise, it was a ###### move that should get him kicked out of the contest.

C'mon, he knew it was a wrestling match. I mean, why else are they there? They gave Puder an opportunity to set himself apart from the others. To succeed or fail, to prove himself or fall flat. And prove himself he did, to Angle's misfortune. To dumb it down to "Bitch move" is exactly what an embarrased sore loser would say.