HBK:The Greatest WWE legend ever?

**The Answer** · 01-01-2005, 05:03 PM

(This is not a best wrestler in terms of skills thread it just argues who should be considered the WWE biggest legend in terms of skills and loyalty to the company)

Ya I know some of you might think im nuts but take a look at the facts.The WWE has had many star's through the year's but not many wrestlers have have had exclusive careers in the WWE without joining another major wrestling federation(ie WCW).Let's take a look at some names

HHH-Great WWE wrestler but had his start in WCW and could not cut it

Bret Hart:Great talent but his WCW experiment failed terribly

Hulk Hogan:Icon in WWE but again jumped ship.Wrestling skills are also a question

Steve Austin:Had so many gimmicks in WCW that led to nothing.WWE made them stars

Taker:See austin

The Rock:An argument could be made here but the Rock was not around enough time.His big time matches in the WWE don't compare to Hbk's

Ric Flair: Did most of his damage in NWA and had quite a few year's in Wcw after leaving WWE.Good wrestler but is a shell of his former self now.

Foley:See austin and taker

Kurt Angle: Doesn't have the credientials Micheals has and I doubt he ever will as he started quite late in WWE.Bad neck may end his career sooner rather then later

Also in a poll of top matches ever in WWE history it is very difficult not to mention one involving Micheals:

First Hell in a cell match vs Taker
Iron man match (1 hour)vs Bret
Ladder Match vs Razor Ramon

These were all first's in WWE.He has also has competed in a Casket Matche and won the first ever elimination chamber.

He also led debatedly the greatest WWE faction ever DX.

Micheals did have stint's in indy companies like NWA central and his own indy company after his back injury but he never joined any other major federation besides the WWE and his matches speak for themselves.

Thoughts? Arguements?

**Gerard** · 01-01-2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadManWalkin

(This is not a best wrestler in terms of skills thread it just argues who should be considered the WWE biggest legend in terms of skills and loyalty to the company)

Ya I know some of you might think im nuts but take a look at the facts.The WWE has had many star's through the year's but not many wrestlers have have had exclusive careers in the WWE without joining another major wrestling federation(ie WCW).Let's take a look at some names

HHH-Great WWE wrestler but had his start in WCW and could not cut it

Bret Hart:Great talent but his WCW experiment failed terribly

Hulk Hogan:Icon in WWE but again jumped ship.Wrestling skills are also a question

Steve Austin:Had so many gimmicks in WCW that led to nothing.WWE made them stars

Taker:See austin

The Rock:An argument could be made here but the Rock was not around enough time.His big time matches in the WWE don't compare to Hbk's

Ric Flair: Did most of his damage in NWA and had quite a few year's in Wcw after leaving WWE.Good wrestler but is a shell of his former self now.

Foley:See austin and taker

Kurt Angle: Doesn't have the credientials Micheals has and I doubt he ever will as he started quite late in WWE.Bad neck may end his career sooner rather then later

Also in a poll of top matches ever in WWE history it is very difficult not to mention one involving Micheals:

First Hell in a cell match vs Taker
Iron man match (1 hour)vs Bret
Ladder Match vs Razor Ramon

These were all first's in WWE.He has also has competed in a Casket Matche and won the first ever elimination chamber.

He also led debatedly the greatest WWE faction ever DX.

Micheals did have stint's in indy companies like NWA central and his own indy company after his back injury but he never joined any other major federation besides the WWE and his matches speak for themselves.

Thoughts? Arguements?

Meh, when michaels became champion didn't the viewing numbers for the then "wwf" decrease? Hes been in the company ages but i wouldn't have him in "legend" status. Out of that list imo only 2 are in the catagory of legend and thats hogan and flair.

**The Answer** · 01-01-2005, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerard

Meh, when michaels became champion didn't the viewing numbers for the then "wwf" decrease? Hes been in the company ages but i wouldn't have him in "legend" status. Out of that list imo only 2 are in the catagory of legend and thats hogan and flair.

Hogan and Flair are legends but they were not exclusive to the WWE with their stints in NWA(when it was big time) and WCW

V · 01-01-2005, 05:14 PM

AUSTIN.

**Loose Cannon** · 01-01-2005, 05:17 PM

Well it seems like you are basing this on outside forces other then the wrestler themselves. Bret didn't get over so good in WCW because WCW fucked that up. Austin was pretty over in WCW when he was there.

And yes, THE RATINGS UNDER HBK WERE SHITTIER THAN RIGHT NOW. So you can say he was a good worker, but he didn't draw shit as far as ratings go.

**The Answer** · 01-01-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gohan3k

AUSTIN.

Again Austin could not cut it in WCW and was not an exclusive WWE talent

**The Answer** · 01-01-2005, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

Well it seems like you are basing this on outside forces other then the wrestler themselves. Bret didn't get over so good in WCW because WCW fucked that up. Austin was pretty over in WCW when he was there.

And yes, THE RATINGS UNDER HBK WERE SHITTIER THAN RIGHT NOW. So you can say he was a good worker, but he didn't draw shit as far as ratings go.

Are those the ratings when he first became champ or the Dx champ ratings?.Wasn't Austin a jobber for most his time in WCW.Again guys im talking about guys that never worked for any other major companies(WCW,ECW,(NWA:Early years) and were always WWE/F guys.So guys like Hogan,Flair,Hart etc aren't in that category

**Loose Cannon** · 01-01-2005, 05:21 PM

^^Wrong. dead wrong

^^That was to your Austin comments. Austin was very over in WCW as a member of the Hollywood Blondes and as a singles competitor. WCW fucked up by not knowing how to use him.

And the rating took a nose dive when HBK won his 1st Title. When he was with DX, the ratings were begginning to rise because of the screwjob and because of Austin mostly

**Loose Cannon** · 01-01-2005, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadManWalkin

Are those the ratings when he first became champ or the Dx champ ratings?.Wasn't Austin a jobber for most his time in WCW.Again guys im talking about guys that never worked for any other major companies(WCW,ECW,(NWA:Early years) and were always WWE/F guys.So guys like Hogan,Flair,Hart etc aren't in that category

Micheals worked for the AWA, which was a major company at the time.

**MVP** · 01-01-2005, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadManWalkin

Ya I know some of you might think im nuts but take a look at the facts.The WWE has had many star's through the year's but not many wrestlers have have had exclusive careers in the WWE without joining another major wrestling federation(ie WCW).Let's take a look at some names

HHH-Great WWE wrestler but had his start in WCW and could not cut it

Bret Hart:Great talent but his WCW experiment failed terribly

Steve Austin:Had so many gimmicks in WCW that led to nothing.WWE made them stars

In 1997 HBK was trying to get out of his contract with WWE to join WCW to be with his Kliq buddies that defected.

Also I don't understand why you consider Bret Hart's, Hunter's, and Austin's careers in WCW when you're trying to prove that HBK is the greatest WWE legend.

All three of them were better draws than HBK in his prime (96) because he was only over with females. Yes, HBK is one of the greatest talents in a WWE ring, and has had some great matches, but his WWE title reign was during one of the worst periods in WWE history in terms of business.

When it comes to drawing power I'd put Hogan, Austin, Rock, and Bret ahead of HBK for sure.

**The Answer** · 01-01-2005, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

^^Wrong. dead wrong

^^That was to your Austin comments. Austin was very over in WCW as a member of the Hollywood Blondes and as a singles competitor. WCW fucked up by not knowing how to use him.

And the rating took a nose dive when HBK won his 1st Title. When he was with DX, the ratings were begginning to rise because of the screwjob and because of Austin mostly

The Ringmaster angle wasn't very good either to be fair.As for the ratings drop wasn't WCW emerging at about that time if im not mistaken

**BigDaddyCool** · 01-01-2005, 05:30 PM

Um.......Kurt Angle is the greatest WWE legend ever.....though rating did drop as soon as he got his first world title run. I don't see how Micheal could be more credible that Angle. Angle won the Olympic gold medal with a broken neck. Micheals refused to wrestle with a hang nail.

Also, Micheal was an NWA wrestler before he was WWF(E), so techincally he doesn't count either.

**Loose Cannon** · 01-01-2005, 05:34 PM

And come on. Loyalty to the company puts Shawn about 20 feet under 1,000 other guys. Shawn was about as loyal as Benedict Arnold. Well maybe not that bad, but he was pretty much unreliable much of the time.

**The Answer** · 01-01-2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool

Um.......Kurt Angle is the greatest WWE legend ever.....though rating did drop as soon as he got his first world title run. I don't see how Micheal could be more credible that Angle. Angle won the Olympic gold medal with a broken neck. Micheals refused to wrestle with a hang nail.

Also, Micheal was an NWA wrestler before he was WWF(E), so techincally he doesn't count either.

NWA Central was considered a big federation?

**Zen v.W.o.** · 01-01-2005, 05:40 PM

Also just to clear up some minor discrepancies. The first ever ladder match in the wwf was not the one we saw that pitted HBK-Razor..it was Bret-HBK I do believe. Ladder matches were taking place quite a bit before that match.

Bret was their biggest draw after Hogan left and their most popular performer. The facts are there: Drew decently in america, was over big time everywhere else. Was the pin point focus of most overseas tours..HBK never was.

Ummm...HBK was loyal if you kept him happy. He was a big time whiner and complainer..at times did not respect the other workers in the company nor the business. Hence some of his actions.

As for DX..it was over-rated. The original consisted of HBK..good talent, best they ever had..HHH who at the time was midcard, and a woman. Rude was barely there and was a cripple anyhow.

Second DX...replace your top talent with x-pac of all people, and two guys who as individuals plainly sucked. I mean Jesse James? The guy who sang those dorky songs? And the Bad Ass, and look where all three of these guys are now.
They were a comedic stable..nothing more really. The Nation were better then then in 1998, and the Hart Foundation owned and dominated 1997.
DX was never tops at any one time in the company, imo.

Now having spouted all that, I do not ever doubt HBK as a performer. He was great, and is still one of the better talents in the business. I dont really like him much, but I can easily admit he was one of the elite.

But as for loyalty I'd put Taker in front of HBK to the company. As I said, HBK would have done what he wanted if he wasn't content. Taker among others were good workers and acted professional.

**Loose Cannon** · 01-01-2005, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadManWalkin

The Ringmaster angle wasn't very good either to be fair.As for the ratings drop wasn't WCW emerging at about that time if im not mistaken

Again, that wasn't Austin's fault. You're only as good as the push you're given. Ringmaster was pushed to be crap.

Yep, WCW was picking up because of the nWo, but that wasn't until June. HBK won the Title in March.

**Loose Cannon** · 01-01-2005, 05:41 PM

MICHAELS WASN'T AN NWA WRESTLER. AWA

**SuperSlim** · 01-01-2005, 05:46 PM

All I see is you tryin to put Michaels over.

You know and we all know that if we took everything into consideration then Michaels may hold somewhat of a legendary status but is not technically a true legend in the business.

SO let's take off our narrow vision glasses and look at the whole picture instead of trying to look at one aspect of the whole picture.

**The Answer** · 01-01-2005, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSlim

All I see is you tryin to put Michaels over.

You know and we all know that if we took everything into consideration then Michaels may hold somewhat of a legendary status but is not technically a true legend in the business.

SO let's take off our narrow vision glasses and look at the whole picture instead of trying to look at one aspect of the whole picture.

Fair enough.The Iron man match with HBK/Hart in my opinion is still the best match ever in WWE history so maybe I am trying to put him over.

**SuperSlim** · 01-01-2005, 05:59 PM

hey now I'm not gonna deny it... Michaels has put together some incredible matches, but let it also be known that it wasn't just him that had to carry the match.

Some matches Michaels carried to make thm good... but that match against Hart, that was both of them.

I'm not tryin to short change Michaels but I like lookin at the whole picture instead of one tiny part of it.

**Zen v.W.o.** · 01-01-2005, 05:59 PM

Well actually I think HBK does deserve the legendary tag. Hell he has accomplished alot in the business. You cannot take that away from him. imo he is more legendary than a guy like HHH. I think he has surpassed Savage by now as well. You know..for a huge chunk of time the top 3 in the wwf were Bret, Taker and HBK.
I dont like him, but I will say he is a legend by now.

**McLegend** · 01-01-2005, 06:00 PM

Ric Flair said it best in one his promos while he was feuding with Orton. "HBK is the greatest in ring performer of all time."

HBK is a legend just look at the favorite wrestlers thread hear everyone here pretty much puts HBK and Bret has their favorite wrestlers ever. I think popularity is what makes you a legend.

Has for his loyaltly to the company I could care less because I wasn't into backstage politics back then.

**SuperSlim** · 01-01-2005, 06:03 PM

to even compare HHH and HBK in the legendary status is a joke. HHH has years left to go under his belt to boost himself to that status and I do think that he will make it.

As far as HBK as a legend. Well as much as he has done I still wouldn't put him past Savage just yet. As scrweed up as Savage is now I would still rank Savage a slight bit higher than HBK.

HBK as a legend is coming. Just not yet.

**Loose Cannon** · 01-01-2005, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legend

Ric Flair said it best in one his promos while he was feuding with Orton. "HBK is the greatest in ring performer of all time."

LOL and Ric Flair also said that HHH is the greatest champion of all-time

**McLegend** · 01-01-2005, 06:11 PM

HHH is the greatest champion of all time

But seriously I do think thats correct about HBK. Even if Ric flair was just saying it because he was in character and doesn't actually mean it.

**The Mackem** · 01-01-2005, 06:27 PM

The Ringmaster wasn't crap, he was the Million Dollar champ

**Mr. Nerfect** · 01-01-2005, 08:23 PM

HBK is a great in-ring performer, and he will be remembered for his flash and flare, but guys like Steve Austin, Triple H, The Rock, Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker and maybe even Kane on day might be put ahead of him. For non-wrestling fans "Shawn Michaels" is this kid at their school. "The Heartbreak Kid" is probably some show on Nickelodeon, "HBK" is some concrete company.

Like it or not, Shawn Michaels doesn't really have name power. Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, The Rock, Triple H, The Undertaker, Kane, Scott Steiner, Goldberg, Andre the Giant and even Rikishi have name power. Namely Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, The Undertaker and The Rock. To be a legend you need to accomplish a lot, make it look good, and get recognised. Shawn Michaels has done all that, he can put asses in seats, but he's a legend amongst wrestling fans. Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, The Undertaker and The Rock will all be in front of Shawn Michaels one day, IMO.

**The CyNick** · 01-01-2005, 08:32 PM

Even if you go by those wierd standards you made up, I would still rank Rock well ahead of Michaels. Even though HBK has had a larger number of "4+ star" matches, he's miles behind Rock in terms of popularity and money drawn. Rock was WWE his whole career, so Rock would be #1 given those odd standards.

**Loose Cannon** · 01-01-2005, 08:33 PM

Nah, now you're pushing it a little. HBK is definately a NAME in wrestling and definately one of the greatest ever.

In the WWE alone, HBK is right beind Hogan, Austin, Hart and Rock

**Loose Cannon** · 01-01-2005, 08:34 PM

Dammit CyNick, you got in front of me

That was in reply to Alienoid.

**Mr. Nerfect** · 01-01-2005, 08:38 PM

Yeah, I was pushing it a little, but if you want to make a list of people who changed the face of wrestling, Shawn Michaels woul dget an honourable emtnion on that list, while Hogan, Austin and Rock take the front-running slots.

Before I watched wrestling I had no clue who Shawn Michaels was, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good wrestler, or even a phenominal wrestler. Being entertaining and having good matches can put you on the legends list, but the guys who reall yshape wrestling will always be first, IMO.

**GODSON** · 01-01-2005, 09:23 PM

HBK carry WWE on his back. His title reign in my opinion was the beginning of the turning point of the WWE. From 1993-95, WWE was almost dead. In 96, WWE created so many characters(Austin,Mankind,Rocky Mavia,etc.). The matches/feuds was more real. You can say the Attitude Era started in 96,when HBK was champion. HBk produce great matches in 96 with Diesel,Owen,Bret,Bulldog,Mankind,Vader and Sid. HBK had the 3 of the top 5 matches(in my opinion) in 1996.

But to answer the question,NO. Hogan is the Greatest WWE Legend ever. When people(I mean everybody) think about wrestling, Hogan is the first thing that comes to mind. Not Flair,Hart,HBK,Austin,Rock. Hogan is Wrestling greatest legend ever. You have to realize, Hogan dominated two of the biggest era's,1980's and 1990's.

**The CyNick** · 01-01-2005, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GODSON

HBK carry WWE on his back. His title reign in my opinion was the beginning of the turning point of the WWE. From 1993-95, WWE was almost dead. In 96, WWE created so many characters(Austin,Mankind,Rocky Mavia,etc.). The matches/feuds was more real. You can say the Attitude Era started in 96,when HBK was champion. HBk produce great matches in 96 with Diesel,Owen,Bret,Bulldog,Mankind,Vader and Sid. HBK had the 3 of the top 5 matches(in my opinion) in 1996.

But to answer the question,NO. Hogan is the Greatest WWE Legend ever. When people(I mean everybody) think about wrestling, Hogan is the first thing that comes to mind. Not Flair,Hart,HBK,Austin,Rock. Hogan is Wrestling greatest legend ever. You have to realize, Hogan dominated two of the biggest era's,1980's and 1990's.

HBK's numbers as champion were very poor, not Nash poor, but poor enough. Business actually started to trend upwars when they put the title back on Bret in the summer of 97.

HBK had very little, if anything to do with the turn around. It was all Austin, who got his rub from Bret. So if you want to credit someone from the dark days for turning things around, it would have to be Bret, not Shawn.

On top of that, Shawn did so many things to hurt the company that he should never be mentioned as a person who did such great things for the company. He's a great talent, but not among the best of the best.

**John la Rock** · 01-01-2005, 09:48 PM

Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and The Rock are the best ever because they were the most popular and drew the most money.

No offence but HBK can't hold their jocks.

**Gouda** · 01-02-2005, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadManWalkin

He also led debatedly the greatest WWE faction ever DX.

It is of my opinion that DX only became really popular when Triple H took over and the New Age Outlaws and X-Pac joined. So that doesn't really count. In my opinion.

**Dave Youell** · 01-02-2005, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o.

Also just to clear up some minor discrepancies. The first ever ladder match in the wwf was not the one we saw that pitted HBK-Razor..it was Bret-HBK I do believe. Ladder matches were taking place quite a bit before that match.

The 1st ever Ladder match was Bret hart Vs Bad News Allen in stampede

**Dorkchop** · 01-02-2005, 10:44 AM

HBK is one of the greatest. Everyone's getting way too technical, so it's hard to choose someone from everyone's standards.

I think in the end, Hogan will go down as number one, and Austin would go down as number 2. Bret Hart would be debated for both spots, and most likely come out number 3.

Hart, Austin, and Hogan are all tied in my opinion. It's hard to choose just one of them as the greatest, and not the other two.

**GODSON** · 01-02-2005, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkchop

HBK is one of the greatest. Everyone's getting way too technical, so it's hard to choose someone from everyone's standards.

I think in the end, Hogan will go down as number one, and Austin would go down as number 2. Bret Hart would be debated for both spots, and most likely come out number 3.

Hart, Austin, and Hogan are all tied in my opinion. It's hard to choose just one of them as the greatest, and not the other two.

I think Bruno,Vince,Rock or Foley will either go down as 3.

**Anybody Thrilla** · 01-02-2005, 05:32 PM

I'm absolutely loving the discussion in this thread. Good on you all.

As for my opinion, I've always enjoyed Shawn Michaels in the ring, and yeah, whatever, I'll call him a legend in terms of in-character accomplishments.. The one thing that turned me off to Michaels is when he didn't want to job his title and there was that whole 'losing his smile' bullshit. That was seriously silly.

To me, a legend should not only be good in-character, but also someone who truly was out for the betterment of the business as a whole. Arguments can be made for a whole bunch of people mentioned in this thread politicking or whatnot, but to me, I'd say that the greatest legend in WWE history is.....Bret Hart.

Now, I know ANOTHER argument could be made for Bret politicking with the Montreal incident, but I'm not really looking to open that can of worms at press time.

Good thread, though.

**Mr. Nerfect** · 01-02-2005, 06:34 PM

I would say Bret'll make the top ten, but I think the #3 slot will go to Rock before Hart. I know Bret Hart has done a lot, and he is a great wrestler, but in terms of character and business, Rock just beats Hart, IMO. If Rock announced he was going to leave the movie industry to return to wrestling, it would pick up a lot, IMO. Bret Hart, even wrestling in his prime, probably would only bring back old cult fans of wrestling, and I'm not sure if there would be those few new legions of fans that would watch.

But anyway, if Bret's career wasn't cut short, and he was still wrestling in his prime in the WWE, I'd think he would be getting close to, if not already, beating The Rock. This is just my opinion, but Hogan, Austin, Rock, Bret, Flair will be the top five. Although Flair is in iminent danger of losing his 5th place. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new guy take that slot, or maybe even Triple H, The Undertaker, Kane, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero. It is a longshot, but if they market Chris Jericho more, he's had enough ups and downs in his career to really make the top five.

BTW, in my opinion, to really become a legend, you need either change the face of the business and bring in a legion of new fans (Hogan/Austin) or have ups and downs in the business, working all over, putting on constantly good matches and being entertaining. That's why I hate to say it, but if RVD really gained some credibility in the WWE, he could really make it as a legend one day (even though some people already consider him one).

01-01-2005, 05:03 PM	#1
The Answer R.I.P Eddie Guerrero Posts: 3,553	HBK:The Greatest WWE legend ever? (This is not a best wrestler in terms of skills thread it just argues who should be considered the WWE biggest legend in terms of skills and loyalty to the company) Ya I know some of you might think im nuts but take a look at the facts.The WWE has had many star's through the year's but not many wrestlers have have had exclusive careers in the WWE without joining another major wrestling federation(ie WCW).Let's take a look at some names HHH-Great WWE wrestler but had his start in WCW and could not cut it Bret Hart:Great talent but his WCW experiment failed terribly Hulk Hogan:Icon in WWE but again jumped ship.Wrestling skills are also a question Steve Austin:Had so many gimmicks in WCW that led to nothing.WWE made them stars Taker:See austin The Rock:An argument could be made here but the Rock was not around enough time.His big time matches in the WWE don't compare to Hbk's Ric Flair: Did most of his damage in NWA and had quite a few year's in Wcw after leaving WWE.Good wrestler but is a shell of his former self now. Foley:See austin and taker Kurt Angle: Doesn't have the credientials Micheals has and I doubt he ever will as he started quite late in WWE.Bad neck may end his career sooner rather then later Also in a poll of top matches ever in WWE history it is very difficult not to mention one involving Micheals: First Hell in a cell match vs Taker Iron man match (1 hour)vs Bret Ladder Match vs Razor Ramon These were all first's in WWE.He has also has competed in a Casket Matche and won the first ever elimination chamber. He also led debatedly the greatest WWE faction ever DX. Micheals did have stint's in indy companies like NWA central and his own indy company after his back injury but he never joined any other major federation besides the WWE and his matches speak for themselves. Thoughts? Arguements? Destiny!!!!! (Credit:Hired Hitman and Marcyo )

01-01-2005, 05:14 PM	#4
V Formerly Ġoh�ń3k Posts: 5,009	AUSTIN.

01-01-2005, 05:17 PM	#5
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	Well it seems like you are basing this on outside forces other then the wrestler themselves. Bret didn't get over so good in WCW because WCW fucked that up. Austin was pretty over in WCW when he was there. And yes, THE RATINGS UNDER HBK WERE SHITTIER THAN RIGHT NOW. So you can say he was a good worker, but he didn't draw shit as far as ratings go.

01-01-2005, 05:21 PM	#8
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	^^Wrong. dead wrong ^^That was to your Austin comments. Austin was very over in WCW as a member of the Hollywood Blondes and as a singles competitor. WCW fucked up by not knowing how to use him. And the rating took a nose dive when HBK won his 1st Title. When he was with DX, the ratings were begginning to rise because of the screwjob and because of Austin mostly

01-01-2005, 05:30 PM	#12
BigDaddyCool Pelvic Sorcerer Posts: 64,762	Um.......Kurt Angle is the greatest WWE legend ever.....though rating did drop as soon as he got his first world title run. I don't see how Micheal could be more credible that Angle. Angle won the Olympic gold medal with a broken neck. Micheals refused to wrestle with a hang nail. Also, Micheal was an NWA wrestler before he was WWF(E), so techincally he doesn't count either.

01-01-2005, 05:34 PM	#13
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	And come on. Loyalty to the company puts Shawn about 20 feet under 1,000 other guys. Shawn was about as loyal as Benedict Arnold. Well maybe not that bad, but he was pretty much unreliable much of the time.

01-01-2005, 05:40 PM	#15
Zen v.W.o. GO HABS GO! Posts: 4,018	Also just to clear up some minor discrepancies. The first ever ladder match in the wwf was not the one we saw that pitted HBK-Razor..it was Bret-HBK I do believe. Ladder matches were taking place quite a bit before that match. Bret was their biggest draw after Hogan left and their most popular performer. The facts are there: Drew decently in america, was over big time everywhere else. Was the pin point focus of most overseas tours..HBK never was. Ummm...HBK was loyal if you kept him happy. He was a big time whiner and complainer..at times did not respect the other workers in the company nor the business. Hence some of his actions. As for DX..it was over-rated. The original consisted of HBK..good talent, best they ever had..HHH who at the time was midcard, and a woman. Rude was barely there and was a cripple anyhow. Second DX...replace your top talent with x-pac of all people, and two guys who as individuals plainly sucked. I mean Jesse James? The guy who sang those dorky songs? And the Bad Ass, and look where all three of these guys are now. They were a comedic stable..nothing more really. The Nation were better then then in 1998, and the Hart Foundation owned and dominated 1997. DX was never tops at any one time in the company, imo. Now having spouted all that, I do not ever doubt HBK as a performer. He was great, and is still one of the better talents in the business. I dont really like him much, but I can easily admit he was one of the elite. But as for loyalty I'd put Taker in front of HBK to the company. As I said, HBK would have done what he wanted if he wasn't content. Taker among others were good workers and acted professional.

01-01-2005, 05:41 PM	#17
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	MICHAELS WASN'T AN NWA WRESTLER. AWA

01-01-2005, 05:46 PM	#18
SuperSlim Oh Sht* Posts: 19,302	All I see is you tryin to put Michaels over. You know and we all know that if we took everything into consideration then Michaels may hold somewhat of a legendary status but is not technically a true legend in the business. SO let's take off our narrow vision glasses and look at the whole picture instead of trying to look at one aspect of the whole picture.

01-01-2005, 05:59 PM	#20
SuperSlim Oh Sht* Posts: 19,302	hey now I'm not gonna deny it... Michaels has put together some incredible matches, but let it also be known that it wasn't just him that had to carry the match. Some matches Michaels carried to make thm good... but that match against Hart, that was both of them. I'm not tryin to short change Michaels but I like lookin at the whole picture instead of one tiny part of it.

01-01-2005, 06:00 PM	#22
McLegend Temporary Posts: 15,591	Ric Flair said it best in one his promos while he was feuding with Orton. "HBK is the greatest in ring performer of all time." HBK is a legend just look at the favorite wrestlers thread hear everyone here pretty much puts HBK and Bret has their favorite wrestlers ever. I think popularity is what makes you a legend. Has for his loyaltly to the company I could care less because I wasn't into backstage politics back then.

01-01-2005, 06:03 PM	#23
SuperSlim Oh Sht* Posts: 19,302	to even compare HHH and HBK in the legendary status is a joke. HHH has years left to go under his belt to boost himself to that status and I do think that he will make it. As far as HBK as a legend. Well as much as he has done I still wouldn't put him past Savage just yet. As scrweed up as Savage is now I would still rank Savage a slight bit higher than HBK. HBK as a legend is coming. Just not yet.

01-01-2005, 06:11 PM	#25
McLegend Temporary Posts: 15,591	HHH is the greatest champion of all time But seriously I do think thats correct about HBK. Even if Ric flair was just saying it because he was in character and doesn't actually mean it.

01-01-2005, 06:27 PM	#26
The Mackem VG + Q&A FORUM REPRESENT Posts: 38,940	The Ringmaster wasn't crap, he was the Million Dollar champ

01-01-2005, 08:23 PM	#27
Mr. Nerfect Posts: 61,531	HBK is a great in-ring performer, and he will be remembered for his flash and flare, but guys like Steve Austin, Triple H, The Rock, Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker and maybe even Kane on day might be put ahead of him. For non-wrestling fans "Shawn Michaels" is this kid at their school. "The Heartbreak Kid" is probably some show on Nickelodeon, "HBK" is some concrete company. Like it or not, Shawn Michaels doesn't really have name power. Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, The Rock, Triple H, The Undertaker, Kane, Scott Steiner, Goldberg, Andre the Giant and even Rikishi have name power. Namely Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, The Undertaker and The Rock. To be a legend you need to accomplish a lot, make it look good, and get recognised. Shawn Michaels has done all that, he can put asses in seats, but he's a legend amongst wrestling fans. Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, The Undertaker and The Rock will all be in front of Shawn Michaels one day, IMO.

01-01-2005, 08:32 PM	#28
The CyNick Make the IWC Great Again Posts: 8,922	Even if you go by those wierd standards you made up, I would still rank Rock well ahead of Michaels. Even though HBK has had a larger number of "4+ star" matches, he's miles behind Rock in terms of popularity and money drawn. Rock was WWE his whole career, so Rock would be #1 given those odd standards.

01-01-2005, 08:33 PM	#29
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	Nah, now you're pushing it a little. HBK is definately a NAME in wrestling and definately one of the greatest ever. In the WWE alone, HBK is right beind Hogan, Austin, Hart and Rock

01-01-2005, 08:34 PM	#30
Loose Cannon I'm all there is Posts: 31,811	Dammit CyNick, you got in front of me That was in reply to Alienoid.

01-01-2005, 08:38 PM	#31
Mr. Nerfect Posts: 61,531	Yeah, I was pushing it a little, but if you want to make a list of people who changed the face of wrestling, Shawn Michaels woul dget an honourable emtnion on that list, while Hogan, Austin and Rock take the front-running slots. Before I watched wrestling I had no clue who Shawn Michaels was, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good wrestler, or even a phenominal wrestler. Being entertaining and having good matches can put you on the legends list, but the guys who reall yshape wrestling will always be first, IMO.

01-01-2005, 09:23 PM	#32
GODSON Posts: 268	HBK carry WWE on his back. His title reign in my opinion was the beginning of the turning point of the WWE. From 1993-95, WWE was almost dead. In 96, WWE created so many characters(Austin,Mankind,Rocky Mavia,etc.). The matches/feuds was more real. You can say the Attitude Era started in 96,when HBK was champion. HBk produce great matches in 96 with Diesel,Owen,Bret,Bulldog,Mankind,Vader and Sid. HBK had the 3 of the top 5 matches(in my opinion) in 1996. But to answer the question,NO. Hogan is the Greatest WWE Legend ever. When people(I mean everybody) think about wrestling, Hogan is the first thing that comes to mind. Not Flair,Hart,HBK,Austin,Rock. Hogan is Wrestling greatest legend ever. You have to realize, Hogan dominated two of the biggest era's,1980's and 1990's.

01-01-2005, 09:48 PM	#34
John la Rock That's how I roll!!! Posts: 4,437	Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and The Rock are the best ever because they were the most popular and drew the most money. No offence but HBK can't hold their jocks.

01-02-2005, 10:44 AM	#37
Dorkchop facebook.com/bloquemen Posts: 5,452	HBK is one of the greatest. Everyone's getting way too technical, so it's hard to choose someone from everyone's standards. I think in the end, Hogan will go down as number one, and Austin would go down as number 2. Bret Hart would be debated for both spots, and most likely come out number 3. Hart, Austin, and Hogan are all tied in my opinion. It's hard to choose just one of them as the greatest, and not the other two.

01-02-2005, 05:32 PM	#39
Anybody Thrilla Cranky Kong Posts: 78,671	I'm absolutely loving the discussion in this thread. Good on you all. As for my opinion, I've always enjoyed Shawn Michaels in the ring, and yeah, whatever, I'll call him a legend in terms of in-character accomplishments.. The one thing that turned me off to Michaels is when he didn't want to job his title and there was that whole 'losing his smile' bullshit. That was seriously silly. To me, a legend should not only be good in-character, but also someone who truly was out for the betterment of the business as a whole. Arguments can be made for a whole bunch of people mentioned in this thread politicking or whatnot, but to me, I'd say that the greatest legend in WWE history is.....Bret Hart. Now, I know ANOTHER argument could be made for Bret politicking with the Montreal incident, but I'm not really looking to open that can of worms at press time. Good thread, though.

01-02-2005, 06:34 PM	#40
Mr. Nerfect Posts: 61,531	I would say Bret'll make the top ten, but I think the #3 slot will go to Rock before Hart. I know Bret Hart has done a lot, and he is a great wrestler, but in terms of character and business, Rock just beats Hart, IMO. If Rock announced he was going to leave the movie industry to return to wrestling, it would pick up a lot, IMO. Bret Hart, even wrestling in his prime, probably would only bring back old cult fans of wrestling, and I'm not sure if there would be those few new legions of fans that would watch. But anyway, if Bret's career wasn't cut short, and he was still wrestling in his prime in the WWE, I'd think he would be getting close to, if not already, beating The Rock. This is just my opinion, but Hogan, Austin, Rock, Bret, Flair will be the top five. Although Flair is in iminent danger of losing his 5th place. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new guy take that slot, or maybe even Triple H, The Undertaker, Kane, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero. It is a longshot, but if they market Chris Jericho more, he's had enough ups and downs in his career to really make the top five. BTW, in my opinion, to really become a legend, you need either change the face of the business and bring in a legion of new fans (Hogan/Austin) or have ups and downs in the business, working all over, putting on constantly good matches and being entertaining. That's why I hate to say it, but if RVD really gained some credibility in the WWE, he could really make it as a legend one day (even though some people already consider him one).