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Old 04-22-2005, 08:15 PM   #1
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Are we too critical?
So a buddy of mine, who watches wrestling maybe 3-4 times a year, happened to watch SmackDown! last night. Upon seeing Cena's spinning belt, he thought it was a great thing. "Awesome, unique, great idea [...]"

Do you think perhaps those of us that watch wrestling a lot or very closely, are too critical of the product?

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Old 04-22-2005, 08:18 PM   #2
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In a word...

Yes!
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:21 PM   #3
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yes.

Cena's belt is awesomeeeeeeee I might add.
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:21 PM   #4
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Yeah, of course we are.

The belt, though... I don't think I'd like it if I were a casual fan. I mean, back when I was a mark in the Attitude days, I thought that Austin's title was the shit, and I still do. At least that thing LOOKS like a title. The thing Cena has is, well, shit, in my opinion.
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:22 PM   #5
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I think we get so critical because we get so numb to the actual product. Plus, smarts and smarks tend to be WAY more critical than marks, as we understand the actual business to pro-wrestling.
With that being said I, myself, am not extremely critical(at least I don't think so). The way I see it, if you watch a month's worth of WWE and all you do is bitch then I don't see the point in watching it. When I watch wrestling I try to remain as markish as possible and limit my smark-ness to TPWW forums.
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nervous Ferret
yes.

Cena's belt is awesomeeeeeeee I might add.
That US Belt was better though...
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redoneja
I think we get so critical because we get so numb to the actual product. Plus, smarts and smarks tend to be WAY more critical than marks, as we understand the actual business to pro-wrestling.
With that being said I, myself, am not extremely critical(at least I don't think so). The way I see it, if you watch a month's worth of WWE and all you do is bitch then I don't see the point in watching it. When I watch wrestling I try to remain as markish as possible and limit my smark-ness to TPWW forums.
That's basically what I do. When I'm watching, I try to watch it as a fan. I'll cheer for the faces, boo (most) heels, get excited when something 'big' happens, etc. There are some things that I refuse to get into, like diva segments, and some things I like to pick at (after all, I'm a New York [NJ, but I go to NY] wrestling fan, and you know how critical we are ), but for the most part, I'm a fan. When I get on the internet, it becomes a different story.
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:36 PM   #8
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In a way, I think we are sometimes. But it's just because we know how much better the WWE and TNA could do based on a lot of us watching wrestling for years. It just gets frustrating sometimes when you see something totally ridiculous and you just shake your head and go "what were they thinking." And then there's the whole guys being completely misused thing.

But when I see good, I usually praise it. I'm a mark most of the time still while watching wrestling. Little things like changing belts don't bother me because I see that the casual fan is really into Cena's belt for example and that's a good thing. As long as they are being smart in a business and creative sense, I generally don't get nit picky.
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:41 PM   #9
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I would've been madder if Cena had pimped out the World Heavyweight Belt. The Undisputed Belt has always been, in my mind anyway, the "Entertainment" belt, as it has been around the waists of the likes of Hogan and Rock. So Cena making it all glitzy, and, um, free-rotational is no big problem with me.

And, yeah, we're sometimes to critical, but that's the case with fans of anything. Cars, sports, video games.... I mean, try going to an auto show with an auto enthusiast who complains that a Hummer H2 is just a dressed up Suburban... to which I will say, "Who cares? It's frikkin' cool!"
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:41 PM   #10
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agree with LC on this one.
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:44 PM   #11
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I found that just by talking with him about wrestling today was good. It got me seeing it as a mark. It was refreshing. I think watching wrestling with marks is the best. In fact I know it is. The best times I had watching wrestling was when I was surrounded by marks. You end up feeding off their energy.

But yeah, like LC stated, it still pisses you off to see misunse of a guy or utterly stupid angles.
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Old 04-22-2005, 08:53 PM   #12
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I dunno. My non-smark freinds are worse than I am.
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Old 04-22-2005, 09:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
In a way, I think we are sometimes. But it's just because we know how much better the WWE and TNA could do based on a lot of us watching wrestling for years. It just gets frustrating sometimes when you see something totally ridiculous and you just shake your head and go "what were they thinking." And then there's the whole guys being completely misused thing.

But when I see good, I usually praise it. I'm a mark most of the time still while watching wrestling. Little things like changing belts don't bother me because I see that the casual fan is really into Cena's belt for example and that's a good thing. As long as they are being smart in a business and creative sense, I generally don't get nit picky.

+1
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Old 04-22-2005, 10:04 PM   #14
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Santo, LC, and Hero pretty much said what I would've. We're too critical, but mainly because we know more and have watched longer. Its the same for other sports and other kinds of entertainment.

Watch the reactions to some of the picks in tomorrows NFL Draft to see a great example of that. And there's no one more critical of the new Star Wars movies than the fanboys who wait in line for weeks to get their tickets for the day it opens.

I think it's human natrue; the more involved and knowledgeable you are about something, the more likely you are to question it. If anytihng, its a compliment to wrestling as a whole. I still have my mark-out moments. But I am critical about what I see because I genuinely care about the prduct that I'm watching.
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Old 04-22-2005, 10:23 PM   #15
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Yes, sometimes.

I'm guilty of it. But at the same time, I have to compare it to other things. For instance, I review games for a website. As soon I start playing any game I immediately look for bad (and good things). I praise the good things and bash the bad things, just like I do with wrestling. As Hatred said, you are critical because you care about the product, which is completely true. I care that talent is mis-used or under utilized. I care that far less talented guys get the pushes. I care that WWE is going to spend 250k on another pretty face, instead of keeping a guy like Matt Hardy. etc. etc. etc. The list goes on and on. But I'm critical because I want the WWE to succeed. I want wrestling back how it was in 97 and 98. It was everywhere and it was crazy.

And yes, watching wrestling with marks is the best. I recently have gotten my fiancee watching it again, she had not watched it since early 95, but she is back into it and loves it, it's great.
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Old 04-22-2005, 10:28 PM   #16
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Yea, basically it all goes back to that saying

Our own ideas are the greatest ideas

Actually, it's not a saying, but it's like we think our ideas are the greatest. So nobody will ever be completely happy with anything really.
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Old 04-22-2005, 10:28 PM   #17
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I honestly think I'm more forgiving because of my longterm viewership. With this tends to come criticism, but also a leniency to whether that which I think is a poor product. I think a case in point is the WWE Homoweight title. I'd mock the shit out of that ruthlessly if I wasn't trying to give the angle a chance. Or even JBL. I'm not sure I could have "gotten into" his heel character without sitting there and goign "well, let's see where this is going."
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Old 04-22-2005, 10:30 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
Yea, basically it all goes back to that saying

Our own ideas are the greatest ideas

Actually, it's not a saying, but it's like we think our ideas are the greatest. So nobody will ever be completely happy with anything really.
No, but you can manage to please a lot of people. The WWE is booked with that same mindset (My ideas are best), and suffers as a result.
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Old 04-22-2005, 10:43 PM   #19
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Yep. Exactly.
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Old 04-22-2005, 11:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
Yep. Exactly.
Course, we're all going to prefer our own point of view, but at the point you're booking based on your prefs only, you're doing something wrong.

I admit. It's easier for us to say what we want because we're NOT actively booking a promotion. However, if you're running a business, you should be professional enough to know the difference.

Anyway, the important thing is that I would run the business better because I would book stuff that appeals to me.
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Old 04-22-2005, 11:43 PM   #21
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Some of you are.

I on the other hand am sick and tired of looking for ways to improve the show because it doesn't matter if I have a good idea, I don't work for the writing team, from now on I am just going to watch and enjoy.

Last smackdown I did that and it felt great, not worrying about backstage bullshit.
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Old 04-23-2005, 01:18 AM   #22
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I think so. Most people here are way too negative about everything
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Old 04-23-2005, 10:23 AM   #23
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A lot of smarks are too critical...

- They forget that its entertainment and take tradition way too seriously...of course I'm guilty too every now and then.

- They rag on botched spots as if they haven't happened in a while, and as if it must be someone's fault. Wrestling ain't easy. Put away the proverbial microscope and just watch.
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Old 04-23-2005, 10:35 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hired Hitman
Some of you are.

I on the other hand am sick and tired of looking for ways to improve the show because it doesn't matter if I have a good idea, I don't work for the writing team, from now on I am just going to watch and enjoy.

Last smackdown I did that and it felt great, not worrying about backstage bullshit.
Wow. Wish I could turn off my brain and just "enjoy."

Turns out that when I ignore backstage politics, I suddenly start looking at the lack of quality put forth a Hell of a lot more. Smackdown this week had some really good moments, so I'm not as concerned here.

However, I "enjoy" what I enjoy, and just deciding I like something because I decide I'm going to is stupid. I'm not going to start deciding to just "enjoy" reality TV shows either, or trance "music" or whatever else. Why force yourself to have fun if you're not really entertained?
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Old 04-23-2005, 10:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamwwe
A lot of smarks are too critical...

- They forget that its entertainment and take tradition way too seriously...of course I'm guilty too every now and then.

- They rag on botched spots as if they haven't happened in a while, and as if it must be someone's fault. Wrestling ain't easy. Put away the proverbial microscope and just watch.
--It is an entertainment show that involves a tradition. I think you're forgetting that. Since the idea is a continuing weekly storyline, there's very little you can do to change that. Every fan is guilty to some extent, unless they have the memory of a goldfish. It's the reason they're doing these TELEVISED HALL OF FAME CEREMONIES.

--Right. botched spots (especially ones frequent within a specific wrestler's matches) are nobody's fault, and don't hurt the enjoyment of the show. I enjoy watching wrestlers shelved in fact. Nothing provides more entertainment in a fake sport than a real injury.
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Old 04-23-2005, 11:59 AM   #26
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It seems unless you have an over name/character, it doesn't matter if you're misused or the result of bad backstage politics, to the casual fan, They don't care. Until casual fans are the minority instead of the majority, that's not going to change the way the business is run.
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Old 04-23-2005, 12:15 PM   #27
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If anything we aren't critial enough.
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Old 04-23-2005, 12:17 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight
--It is an entertainment show that involves a tradition. I think you're forgetting that. Since the idea is a continuing weekly storyline, there's very little you can do to change that. Every fan is guilty to some extent, unless they have the memory of a goldfish. It's the reason they're doing these TELEVISED HALL OF FAME CEREMONIES.

--Right. botched spots (especially ones frequent within a specific wrestler's matches) are nobody's fault, and don't hurt the enjoyment of the show. I enjoy watching wrestlers shelved in fact. Nothing provides more entertainment in a fake sport than a real injury.
-- Its an entertainment series that has a past. You can honor what Hulk Hogan did for the company without expecting John Cena to wear a typical championship belt, for example. Honoring the past and keeping with tradition are two different things. All I'm saying is that smarks sometimes put too much importance in the latter.

-- Botched spots are not necessarily anyone's fault, and don't always result in injury, so they therefore should not, in my opinion, hurt your enjoyment of the product often. Besides, the vast majority of guys who botch spots frequently are new. Patience is a virtue, as they say. There's a difference between enjoying injuries and not pointing fingers when they occur, or letting them get in the way of your enjoyment of the overall product. Shit happens.

Of course it helps that I don't watch Heat, where most of the spot botchers spend the bulk of their time.
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Old 04-23-2005, 12:20 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUR Hero
It seems unless you have an over name/character, it doesn't matter if you're misused or the result of bad backstage politics, to the casual fan, They don't care. Until casual fans are the minority instead of the majority, that's not going to change the way the business is run.
If the shows were all that good, I wouldn't even give a shit about misused talent.

I think the ratings reflect other people have an issue with the quality of the product. Whether or not it's because Matt or Rhyno or whoever else was fired (Which I doubt it is), ratings are nothing compared to what they were. So is it the overly critical smark-base that's the problem here, or perhaps the people who just want to casually enjoy it and then decide to check out CSI intead? OR perhaps it's too critical to say that "lower ratings means casual fans are less satisfied."
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Old 04-23-2005, 12:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamwwe
-- Its an entertainment series that has a past. You can honor what Hulk Hogan did for the company without expecting John Cena to wear a typical championship belt, for example. Honoring the past and keeping with tradition are two different things. All I'm saying is that smarks sometimes put too much importance in the latter.

-- Botched spots are not necessarily anyone's fault, and don't always result in injury, so they therefore should not, in my opinion, hurt your enjoyment of the product often. Besides, the vast majority of guys who botch spots frequently are new. Patience is a virtue, as they say. There's a difference between enjoying injuries and not pointing fingers when they occur, or letting them get in the way of your enjoyment of the overall product. Shit happens.

Of course it helps that I don't watch Heat, where most of the spot botchers spend the bulk of their time.
If a rookie botches it probably is his fault. However, in most cases, it should be easy to say "They fucked up" and move on. A lot of experienced wrestlers still botch pretty frequently (However, I think "botch" is used up too frequently, since it really generally referred to really fucking up, not honest mistakes), and are sloppy in the ring. Even if they don't hurt someone, they do hurt my enjoyment. I like watching a good show of wrestling and entertainment. If you're good on the mic and fuck up once in a while, I don't care . If you're good in the ring and screw up once or twice, I won't care. I may mock them once in a while for fun (Even though I'm a huge Ultimo Dragon fan, frex, I make some comments about his entrance screwups...Or Brock). It's people who look bad in ring on a regular basis that seem to get shit.

On the other hand, people are too critical sometimes. Look at how hammered BAtista's been getting. I diagree. His mic skills may suck NOW, but I think he could get better, and I like the look of his inring work.
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Old 04-23-2005, 12:35 PM   #31
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When wrestling is "in", there just seems to be a buzz about it. They do something... some angle that people hear about, they tune in, get hooked for awhile, then fade back to other things. But lately it's just the same thing, nothing new and exciting is happening.

Sure the smarks analyse the minute details of everything, but it seems to be the overly critical aspect I refer to.
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Old 04-23-2005, 01:35 PM   #32
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Cena's belt is a gimmick belt like Austin's smoking skull belt. Unless WWE starts to use it for everyone
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Old 04-23-2005, 05:24 PM   #33
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Yes, I think sometimes we can be to critical thats why I wander in and out of this place because if I stayed to long I woudln't honestly be able to watch Wrestling on a weekly basis. Lol. I found when I read spoilers I got bored during Smackdown emencely and just didn't give a crap. So I stopped reading them and got a little bit more into the whole show, I won't say I was a raving screaming Mark but I still was more entertained cause I didn't know what was coming up.

And I agree on the whole watching with a mark, I watched WM 20 with a bunch of my freinds, Two of which were Smarks and two of which were marks, us Smarks kept our mouth's shut about stupid backstage shit and I throughly enjoyed 20. But when I went back a month or so later to watch the Tape I was like BORING...I was honestly bored with the product and coudln't stand to watch it. (Shrugs)
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Old 04-23-2005, 06:29 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkSoda
Cena's belt is a gimmick belt like Austin's smoking skull belt. Unless WWE starts to use it for everyone
And it's not as bad as people make it out to be. I think it's better than the US title.
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Old 04-23-2005, 06:35 PM   #35
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I like the angles to be a little more realistic and my matches longer and more competitive, which is why I favor RoH over WWE in those departments. However, I do like the grandeur and tradition associated with WWE. As long as there aren't any pregnancy, marriage, death, or any other "highly skeptcal" angles I am fine with the WWE product.
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Old 04-23-2005, 06:39 PM   #36
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The new belt reminds me of the Million $ Belt
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Old 04-23-2005, 07:37 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlyheaven
The new belt reminds me of the Million $ Belt
You're right.

And it's cheesey, but it makes a lot of sense for Cena to have a glittery, gay-as-shit belt, considering he's doing the whole wigger/chav shtick.

Either way, it'll be dropped soon as Cena's gone, no doubt. Plus, I really like JBL using the WWE championship belt. I think it's a cool little touch.
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Old 04-24-2005, 01:25 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
Wow. Wish I could turn off my brain and just "enjoy."

Turns out that when I ignore backstage politics, I suddenly start looking at the lack of quality put forth a Hell of a lot more. Smackdown this week had some really good moments, so I'm not as concerned here.

However, I "enjoy" what I enjoy, and just deciding I like something because I decide I'm going to is stupid. I'm not going to start deciding to just "enjoy" reality TV shows either, or trance "music" or whatever else. Why force yourself to have fun if you're not really entertained?
That's just the thing, I was entertained.

I don't mean I would say "hey whooo. oh yeah" then think "Meh that match sucked", I still cheer for what I like and hate what I don't, what I do is I don't think about backstage stuff while watching the show, I watch and decide.
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Old 04-24-2005, 06:06 AM   #39
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I've been watching the WWE internet blind lately. Not by choice, but because I haven't had the internet. I was also without Foxtel for a week or so, so I missed WrestleMania 21, and the RAW and SmackDown! before it.

Anyway, I watched and was intrigued by the pops towards Christian (which tells me he must have done a pretty good job in the Money in the Bank Ladder Match). I was a bit worried about the lack of Rhyno, Gene Snitsky, Rene Dupree & Kenzo Suzuki on my TV (can anyone tell me on what grounds Rhyno was released, and what's been happening with Gene, Rene and Kenzo?), and when I first tuned into SmackDown! I heard Cena was getting a new Championship belt. Joy.

I don't mind the general look of the new belt, but I really think it could have done without the spinner thing. It might have been nice to have JBL come out with Vince McMahon and have Vinnie Mac strip Cena of the WWE Championship, and re-award JBL the Championship, but still have Cena claim to be the Champion, and have him announced as the "Chain Gang's Champion" or some crap like that. Then have JBL vs. John Cena at Judgment Day to "unify" the belts.

As far as being too critical goes, you will never hear me bad-mouth a superstar. I like Viscera, I like Kenzo Suzuki, I like Heidenreich, I like Snitsky, I like Chris Masters, and the list goes on. I do get a bit upset when guys like Val Venis and Rhyno sit on the side lines during a time when the WWE is low on tag teams, and they fill what could be a decent tag team filler with RAW Whores or SmackDown! Sluts. It's not because I hate the product, I'm a loyal fan. It's just that I like it so much that I have a connection with it and really don't want it to be useless crap.

If the WWE really wants to throw away $250,000, use it to get a guy a celebrity manager for a few weeks, or use it to get top quality entrances for guys like Matt Morgan, Orlando Jordan, Luther Reigns, Hardcore Holly & Charlie Haas or Mark Jindrak. I don't see why getting some more semi-hot women on TV is important, especially when you can't keep your decent talent like Molly Holly. The only good that can come out of the Diva Search is that Gail Kim enters, then kicks the ass of all the other contestants then says she is here to wrestle. But you just know it is going to be used for Jillian Hall to make her debut as a reject called "Moley Holey" and possibly as little as a week later we'll see her using Molly Holly's old music as a shot at her by management.
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Old 04-24-2005, 08:47 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hired Hitman
That's just the thing, I was entertained.

I don't mean I would say "hey whooo. oh yeah" then think "Meh that match sucked", I still cheer for what I like and hate what I don't, what I do is I don't think about backstage stuff while watching the show, I watch and decide.
(I've been doing that for years. If I didn't, I'd not be able to praise JBL's mic work and championship. IS this really anything special? I call it standard)
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