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Old 08-09-2005, 03:37 PM   #1
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So Triple H leaves, and Raw goes to shit.
Huh. How bout that?

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Originally Posted by Mondo Gecko View Post

He's like aw shit!
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:39 PM   #2
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Nah, that couldn't POSSIBLY be a coincidence...
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:40 PM   #3
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Its because we have no big heels because HHH wouldn't allow any.
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:41 PM   #4
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I was thinking this too.

Maybe it wasn't HHH's fault for the qualtiy of wrestling going down over the last few years.

Or Maybe it his fault
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:42 PM   #5
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or maybe the writers just plain suck.
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:44 PM   #6
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It can't be! Why? Why? Why?

The one chance we get to show that Raw doesn't need HHH, then HHH is gone and it turns out that Raw does need him.

Then again, we could always say that HHH's politicing for the last three years has meant there are no other main events left because they're all stuck under the glass ceiling.

Yep, I'll go with the latter too.
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:45 PM   #7
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How about Hogan arrives and RAW goes to shit? Diva Search and RAW goess to shit. No Flair and RAW goes to shit.

I don't miss Hunter. Yet anyways, but I likely will in about a month or so.

Personally I like the Jericho/Cena and Matt/Edge feuds. Not much else though.
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:45 PM   #8
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or maybe the writers just plain suck.
The same writers who have the Hurricane and Rosey as champions and are running another Diva search? Never!
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:42 PM   #9
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next weeks raw should be pretty good though someone big might come back.
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:45 PM   #10
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Bret Hart won't be on Raw in any shape or form. Go to his website if you don't believe me.
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:50 PM   #11
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you guys complain too much

raw is fucking awesome thanks to heel HBK, Hogan, Matt, Edge, Jericho, Cena, Cena's new music video, Carlito, Angle

just can the fucking diva search plz, oh they are next week, so yeah, things should look better.

The only reason people may not be into the Jericho/Cena feud is cuz everyone knows cena is gonna win, if everyone thought Jericho actually had a chance they would be into this feud big time.

plus raw is in motreal next week + heel hbk = RATINGS.
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:09 PM   #12
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Of course RAW went to shit since HHH is the head writer. I thought everyone knew that.
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:15 PM   #13
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look at the main focus of raw.

Hogan vs. HBK.

Cena vs. Jericho is in there too.

The WWE champion can not carry Raw on his own as a face. EVen with Jericho there helping in every possible way cause Jericho is capable. But Cena? Cena is just a face and a boring one at that. He hasn't really done anything entertaining since the first night he showed up on Raw. LIke that first night was his highlight. After that it just started suckin more and more. And Jericho can carry him only so far.

HBK and Hogan are doin mad good.

Edge and Hardy? That was supposed to equal ratings with Hardy but of course having him show up week after week then the eventual "signing" reallykilled it. Then also Hardy isn't delivering. Edge is the one that's delivering in the promos.

So a couple of things that are killing Raw.

The focus not being on the WWE champion.
The WWE champion not ready to carry Raw on his back yet.
The Champion being a boring face.
Too much focus on Hogan and HBK.
Hardy didn't deliver.
other feuds aren't exactly kickin off to well since they are pretty meaningless.

That's why I see Raw isn't doing so well.
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:35 PM   #14
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Even though HHH isn't on the show, that's the same as always. HHH or no HHH, RAW will always be like this. It's inevitable that RAW will suck because HHH sucks sooooo badly. And the bad thing is...we'll still watch.
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:40 PM   #15
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what Raw really needs is like a real main event heel. Not doggin Jericho or anything but they jobbed him like crazy. seeing him as the super credible heel main eventer that he deserves to be isn't happening.

Lacking the main event heel is really hurting
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:51 PM   #16
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I find it interesting with HHH out they're pushing all the heels to an extent.

How many faces have won a match recently? Or gotten a fair shake at a title?

Y2J is getting the WWE Title push, Carlito getting a shot and holding the IC after multiple (mostly "heel") wins over Shelton.

Rob Conway getting a push as, the new Rick Rude?

HBK

Edge

Angle

Chris Masters

Heart Throbs.

So, what does this mean? Don't be shocked to see HHH come back face when the time is right.

Personally, I would have thought bringing back Hassan to Raw and turning Angle Face would have been a good move, Angle is due for another Face turn, also wouldn't mind seeing him get another title run, but I guess all the talk of his injuries limits what he does? Or is it because they want to push the "new champs" more?

Dunno, I think Raw's decent now.... Yeah, Diva Search is a waste and people can argue weather the TA helps sell or not, but a better question is, what would be in its place? A jobber type match? Probably something meaningless, so, if we're going to waste 10mins of TV time, might as well be with cute chicks doing dumb things and coach getting abused.
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Old 08-09-2005, 07:41 PM   #17
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Nah, I'm with Gohan. I have really liked Raw sans Triple H. Cena/Jericho would be much better if Y2J hadn't spent the last few months jobbing to anything that moves. But Angle/Eugene has kept me entertained (and if this were Nick Dinsmore, this would be a masterpiece at SS. I've heard those two tore down the house in OVW). Edge just saved the angle with Hardy. HBK is carrying his feud with Hogan (as most would expect).

So, other than the fact that Chris Masters is getting the most undeserved push in the history of professional wrestling and the Diva search, which mercifully ends next week, Raw has been pretty OK. Not great, and definitely not what I hoped when Angle and Cena switched up, but not at all as bad as what this thread is making it out to be. And I'm not missing Trips at all.
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:38 PM   #18
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I was telling legend this yesterday. I personally think the show has been complete crap. And I was so high on it up until the week after Cena came. The whole booking, aside from HBK/Hogan, has been complete crap. And here's my reasons why.

First of all, since I mentioned HBK/Hogan, I am just not as excited as I should be about this match. I think HBK has done a hell of a job, but I think Hogan's image is finally starting to get to me. The more he comes back, the less I care about him. I was pumped about Rock/Hogan at Mania 18. I was pumped for his match at Mania 19. He feud with Brock/Taker and Angle after that I was excited to see. But ever since coming back at Mania 21, I just don't care about him anymore. I don't know what it is, but his aura is gone from where I'm sitting.

This whole Cena/Jericho thing is ridiculous. I still don't get why Jericho has a Title shot when Angle and HBK are there. This reminds bme of Warrior vs Rude at Summerslam 90. All of a sudden Rude gets a Title shot because he had a pin over Warrior. Jericho hasn't been booked strong in ages and all of a sudden we're suppossed to take him seriously. I don't think so

Carlito/Shelton. The fuck happened here. They give CCC the IC, which I thought was great. Now it seemed like we would see an awesome feud between the two, but instead CCC gets like 3 DQ losses, making Shelton look like a complete goof by the 3rd one. Then Shelton is not even feuding with him anymore and CCC is with Cena/Jericho. I know Shelton was on Raw last night, but I can't remember what he did. Where was the payoff match. Where's the logical booking here?

Matt/Edge. WTF? Okay, so Hardy is suppossed to be anti-establishment right? So that means he comes out of the owner's limo and shakes his hand on national TV? And what the hell were they doing last night in his match with Snitsky. So here we have Matt Hardy, getting some of the biggest face pops out of anybody on the roster, making his big return match. Here we have Snitsky, who hasn't been booked strong in ages and hasn't won a match in a long time. So you could say they gave up on pushing him, correct? So why in the fucking world do you have one of your most over babyfaces getting destroyed by a guy that isn't going anywhere? What was the point of that? Hardy should of beat him in 40 seconds. Instead he gets no offense in and we watch him take a pounding for 85% of the match. Great job guys.

Not being able to care about anybody else on the roster. Tell me this. It seemed like they were pushing VIS, right? I mean I hate the guy, but they were giving him a push, correct? Oh wait, 2 months later and now he's getting jobbed to the new guy. So we have some strong guys job to Vis because Vis was getting a push and now Vis is jobbing to someone new 2 months later. Not that I care about Vis jobbing, but how is the audience suppossed to get attached to characters if the WWE keeps changing thier minds on who's getting the push and who's not. They need some long term plans to get people over. And this applies to guys like Benjamin and people who I can't think of because I can't remember who's on Raw right now.

They are doing a good job with Masters, but nobody gives a shit about him still after all these wins and challenges.

The tag Title situation I'm not going to even talk about.

Well that's my 2 cents. Seriously, the past couple of shows have just seemed like nothing is advancing. We got guys here, we got guys there and we'll give them a match. That's what it feels like to me.
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:54 PM   #19
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I love LC.
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:59 PM   #20
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You've been KKK'd
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I love THC.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:02 PM   #21
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Now I'm not a drug expert but is THC a crucial part of pot? Cause if it is then yes I do love THC.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:03 PM   #22
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Also, I disagree that they've been doing a "good job" on Masters. The writers are certainkly doing everything they can think off to get him over. But he is getting zero reaction. No matter what they do, people aren't even giving him Xpac heat. They just sit there; the silence was audible during the Benjamin/Masters match. And he's just atrocious in the ring. Benjamin could not get him to move around for shit. His timing is off. he can't sell for shit. Hes just an awkward, awkward guy. And nobody cares about him. Its stunning that the WWE is even taking this much time with him.

Doing a good job with Master would mean taking him off of TV entirely.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
Now I'm not a drug expert but is THC a crucial part of pot? Cause if it is then yes I do love THC.
The noun tetrahydrocannabinol (or THC) has one meaning:

Meaning #1: psychoactive substance present in marijuana
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:14 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureHatred
Also, I disagree that they've been doing a "good job" on Masters. The writers are certainkly doing everything they can think off to get him over. But he is getting zero reaction. No matter what they do, people aren't even giving him Xpac heat. They just sit there; the silence was audible during the Benjamin/Masters match. And he's just atrocious in the ring. Benjamin could not get him to move around for shit. His timing is off. he can't sell for shit. Hes just an awkward, awkward guy. And nobody cares about him. Its stunning that the WWE is even taking this much time with him.

Doing a good job with Master would mean taking him off of TV entirely.
that's what I meant when I said good job. I meant the writers were doing everything they could with him, which is more then I could say about so many others. Vince wants him on TV and for what they are given, they are doing great.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:17 PM   #25
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The noun tetrahydrocannabinol (or THC) has one meaning:

Meaning #1: psychoactive substance present in marijuana
Then yes...yes I do love THC.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:23 PM   #26
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Matt/Edge. WTF? Okay, so Hardy is suppossed to be anti-establishment right? So that means he comes out of the owner's limo and shakes his hand on national TV? And what the hell were they doing last night in his match with Snitsky. So here we have Matt Hardy, getting some of the biggest face pops out of anybody on the roster, making his big return match. Here we have Snitsky, who hasn't been booked strong in ages and hasn't won a match in a long time. So you could say they gave up on pushing him, correct? So why in the fucking world do you have one of your most over babyfaces getting destroyed by a guy that isn't going anywhere? What was the point of that? Hardy should of beat him in 40 seconds. Instead he gets no offense in and we watch him take a pounding for 85% of the match. Great job guys.
After watching last night's match with Snitsky I'm starting to think that they're stupidly blowing their money in an attempt to screw over Matt again. I think he'll be released again after being buried and losing face in front of all of his MF'ers.
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Old 08-09-2005, 10:37 PM   #27
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I've been thinking of a few reasons why RAW is sucking, with none of them being because HHH is gone.

I keep thinking that they traded Dave Laguana from SmackDown to RAW during the draft lottery. I am convinced that Laguana can't write a good wrestling show worth shit. And while, since the draft lottery, RAW has been full of shit in their shows, SmackDown seems to be getting the better end right now, with Christian's supurb mic skills finally being milked with the Peep Show, a Rey/Eddie feud that is just plain RIDICULOUS as to how over it is right now, and while Batista isn't the best WHC in the world, he has been a solid one. Not to mention Orton/Taker round 2 coming up. So why is it that RAW is starting to become what SmackDown was in the middle of 04? This has to be one of the main reasons. Or maybe it's because they are focusing a bit on SD now (and I would say it would be about damn TIME if they actually ARE).

Also, I don't agree with LC on the Hardy/Snisky thing. I think it was perfect to show that Hardy has had that "ring rust" they like to label on people that haven't been in a WWE ring in a long time. However, Vince is a retard, and JR botches as a play by play guy, so I'm asking too much out of them.

The Diva search would be saved if Ashely wins, because she's the only one there I really CARE about right now.

Chris Masters is a waste of time. Although it IS nice of the WWE to give us that piss break known as the Masterbore. And WTF was he doing getting over on Benjamin? As Gouda has been saying, WHO BOOKED THAT CRAP?!!

And while I don't blame the WWE for capalizing on Cena's overness right then and there, it was TOO early to give him the title at that point. Either that, or...

It's the failure to have anyone they got from SmackDown amount to anything. Cena is just being misused period, Angle is stuck feuding with Eugine when he should be doing so much more higher up on the card, the Big Show could be one of the most threatening heels on RAW for the WWE Championship, RVD is injured with no set date to return, and they botched the Cabana/Highlight Reel competition by killing the Cabana and having Jericho and Carlito in cahoots (why?). Basically, they've got all these guys that were the top people on SmackDown and just buried them on RAW.

So it's not that HHH is gone that is causing RAW to suck, it's the stupidity of the writers to botch writing an entertaining show...that, and maybe they DO have Laguana now.
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Old 08-09-2005, 10:54 PM   #28
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Why would you "show" the fans that a guy they want to cheer for desperatly is weak? Does that make sense? Who wants to cheer for weak people? In 97, Austin came back from a legit neck injury and beat Owen Hart in like 5 minutes for the IC Title. You think the fans wanted to see Owen whip Austin's ass for 7 minutes? No. You don't do that to a guy that is over.
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Old 08-10-2005, 12:44 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
Why would you "show" the fans that a guy they want to cheer for desperatly is weak? Does that make sense? Who wants to cheer for weak people? In 97, Austin came back from a legit neck injury and beat Owen Hart in like 5 minutes for the IC Title. You think the fans wanted to see Owen whip Austin's ass for 7 minutes? No. You don't do that to a guy that is over.
I didn't agree with it, either. I'm just trying to use some WWE logic here.
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Old 08-10-2005, 01:12 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by SuperSlim
look at the main focus of raw.

Hogan vs. HBK.

Cena vs. Jericho is in there too.

The WWE champion can not carry Raw on his own as a face. EVen with Jericho there helping in every possible way cause Jericho is capable. But Cena? Cena is just a face and a boring one at that. He hasn't really done anything entertaining since the first night he showed up on Raw. LIke that first night was his highlight. After that it just started suckin more and more. And Jericho can carry him only so far.

HBK and Hogan are doin mad good.

Edge and Hardy? That was supposed to equal ratings with Hardy but of course having him show up week after week then the eventual "signing" reallykilled it. Then also Hardy isn't delivering. Edge is the one that's delivering in the promos.

So a couple of things that are killing Raw.

The focus not being on the WWE champion.
The WWE champion not ready to carry Raw on his back yet.
The Champion being a boring face.
Too much focus on Hogan and HBK.
Hardy didn't deliver.
other feuds aren't exactly kickin off to well since they are pretty meaningless.

That's why I see Raw isn't doing so well.
I think Cena can cut it on his own easily. Especially if there was a heel worth going against. Of course, since HHH has ensured there's no main event heels without him, that's not possible.

MEanwhile, HBK is carrying a tired old man to the mountain once more. Proving that the title only matters when it's on Trips' waist.

Throwing away the Hardy angle.

Kurt feuding with Eugene when the WWE needs him main eventing.

Tired authority angle.
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Old 08-10-2005, 09:58 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
Why would you "show" the fans that a guy they want to cheer for desperatly is weak? Does that make sense? Who wants to cheer for weak people? In 97, Austin came back from a legit neck injury and beat Owen Hart in like 5 minutes for the IC Title. You think the fans wanted to see Owen whip Austin's ass for 7 minutes? No. You don't do that to a guy that is over.
It's called Hero Syndrome, and there are two types: Monolith and Hollywood.

With the Hollywood Hero Syndrome, the fans want to see their hero actually accomplish something; to see him battle -- against whatever odds -- to achieve his goal. It's not that he appears weak to his following, it is simply that he is giving everything he has to defeat his overbearing nemesis. Granted, in this case, it sounds like I'm giving Snitsky (and the match itself) a lot of credit, but again...it IS called "Hollywood".

The Monolith Syndrome, on the other hand, is for fans who don't really want to watch matches in the first place. This is the ignorant dream that spawned the likes of Goldberg: Go in, power move, power move, pin, grunt grunt grunt, walk out. Not entertaining. Just quick, hard, and your favorite gets the win, while coming off as "unstoppable".

Now, as I stated, the match was pretty slow, the "highlight" being the top rope Twist of Fate that JR referred to as "a modified Diamond Cutter". ( ) And I really don't know why Snitsky was even written into this story anyway -- HE KILLED HER BABY AND HOSPITALIZED KANE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MATT....*ahem* Bit I digress.

The point is, there are ppl out there who want to see their hero beaten, bruised, and run thru a cotton gin before getting his win. It makes the victory that much sweeter to say he took everything his enemy could give him and still came out on top.
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Old 08-10-2005, 10:09 AM   #32
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Okay, this is WRESTLING, not some 2 hr hollywood movie or some 400 page book we are reading here. So those 2 words don't apply to a Raw match like this.

I don't remember one time where someone got over by being beaten (by one guy during a legit match) for 7 minutes and got no offense in. Austin was probably the companies biggest draw ever and he came in and kicked everyone's ass all the time. Granted, if it's 2 on 1, 3 on 1, it's a different story, but not 1 on 1 in a RAW MATCH. A PPV match is different because they are longer and they are usually built up by the feud. With Snitsky and Matt, there was no feud, so nobody cared about Snitsky and Hardy. All they wanted was Hardy to come in and beat his ass. You could tell they wanted to cheer Hardy bad, but they couldn't when he was getting closelines and side suplexed all over the place.

You see what you wrote for your last paragraph. Yea, you're right there, but that applies to storylines that are long and drawn out, not to matches like the one on Raw.
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Old 08-10-2005, 10:14 AM   #33
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Snitsky is allies with Edge and Lita now for whatever reason, so Hardy has to go through him first.
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Old 08-10-2005, 10:28 AM   #34
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I also admitted that I was giving the match a lengthy aamount of leeway in the credibility category. But my general point was simply to explain that some ppl do need to see their personal champs beat up before the big win. And I don't care who the guy is, a return match is still a bit of a milestone, and thusly should be interesting. Again, I admit this particular match was two parts boring, one part slow, but if it had been entertaining, it would have been fine.

And, by the way....you appear to be a Monolith kinda guy.
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Old 08-10-2005, 10:30 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Snitsky is allies with Edge and Lita now for whatever reason, so Hardy has to go through him first.
I got that part, chief. I'm saying Snitsky shouldn't be their ally.
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Old 08-10-2005, 10:57 AM   #36
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HE KILLED HER BABY AND HOSPITALIZED KANE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MATT....
IT WASN'T...HIS...FAULT.
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Old 08-10-2005, 11:03 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
Okay, this is WRESTLING, not some 2 hr hollywood movie or some 400 page book we are reading here. So those 2 words don't apply to a Raw match like this.

I don't remember one time where someone got over by being beaten (by one guy during a legit match) for 7 minutes and got no offense in. Austin was probably the companies biggest draw ever and he came in and kicked everyone's ass all the time. Granted, if it's 2 on 1, 3 on 1, it's a different story, but not 1 on 1 in a RAW MATCH. A PPV match is different because they are longer and they are usually built up by the feud. With Snitsky and Matt, there was no feud, so nobody cared about Snitsky and Hardy. All they wanted was Hardy to come in and beat his ass. You could tell they wanted to cheer Hardy bad, but they couldn't when he was getting closelines and side suplexed all over the place.

You see what you wrote for your last paragraph. Yea, you're right there, but that applies to storylines that are long and drawn out, not to matches like the one on Raw.
You could just take your ritalin, and your desire to see Goldberg quality matches will go away.

Take a deep breath and remember that you are not the only person watching, and that wrestling has come a long way since 1987. I'm sure evolution pains you as it does us all, but things change.
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Old 08-10-2005, 11:04 AM   #38
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Quote:
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I got that part, chief. I'm saying Snitsky shouldn't be their ally.
Obligatory heel turn.
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Old 08-10-2005, 11:36 AM   #39
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Some good points made in this thread, got to agree with LC here though.I'm glad i didnt stay up to watch raw on monday night, it must've been a shit show.
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Old 08-10-2005, 11:50 AM   #40
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You know, I haven't really watch Raw since HHH hasn't been on.

Cena is stale, so his fued against Jericho is going to suck no matter how hard Jericho tries.

Christian is on Smackdown.

Edge and Matt Hardy have fueded pretty much since day one, now that there is real emotion behind it, I still don't care, they are both just average workers at best.

Christian is on Smackdown.

The Diva search is boring and a little embarassing.

Christian is on Smackdown.

HBK and Hogan is kinda boring and with them both calling the other a political backstabber it is kind of like, well duh. I since a finger poke of doom instead of a match.

Christian is on Smackdown.

Angle and Eugene? Eugene? That is like saying God vs. some retard...wait, it is god vs. some retard. Why didn't they just fire Nick Dismore during the last round of layoffs? Nothing against the guy, but he will always be Eugene and that whole angle is kinda over and crappy. Also, they could be using Angle to give someone marketable the rub.

And also Christian is on smackdown.
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