Is the WWE killing wrestling?

**Kane Knight** · 11-07-2005, 02:06 AM

Vince McMahon has been credited with many things in his life, including making wrestling popular, creating Hulkamania, revolutionising pro wrestling, he's a genius, etc. etc. These days, however, he's more likely to be called an idiot, an asshole, whatever. Even the markiest of marks gets a little pissed off at Vince sometimes, like when he "fired" JR (It's funny watching people asking if Ross is really fired, and bitching that this kills wrestling, but it's happening).

While reading the 15 or 16 threads on Christian, something occurred to me that never really sank in before. I'd thought about it in the past, but the whole "Will he be called Christian" thing was kind of a big tipper.

After WCW went belly up, when there was pretty much only the WWE, what everyone said was that we really needed some competition. People like Heyman and Bischoff, whether capable on their own, made the WWF interesting because the F was forced to kick it up a notch on a regular basis. Even bad competition could be good for us, the WWF-loving public.

Now, Vince has bought wrestling history. He's got the rights to tons of footage, multiple promotions, and the best (By best I mean biggest and most successful) promotion in town, can put more money into a show, can basically trump anyone on the market. Much as I love watchig Cruiserweights capped at 3 moves (Arm drag, monkey flip, and their finisher), or the virtual monopoly he's created here, I wonder: Has this killed professional wrestling as we know it (In this country)?

The WWE has trademarked Christian, though it looks like Reso has a legit claim to the mark. No worries, he could challenge that, right? Right, except the WWE has a lot of money to throw around if they want to make things difficult for wrestlers. Considering their impunity with the WWFund, I'd say the threat of an indy wrestler is really small. With the Dudleyz, it was a little less surprising, but they did go to the point of anal minutia on the trademarking there.

Then there's talent. The WWE can afford to buy the up and comers and not even use them. Kazarian, Kash, Kennedy (Kidding), they can pay to bring a guy in from another promotion and not really even be bothered to use him. I wonder if even the promotions are safe, or if TNA would be snatched up by the WWE and swallowed whole if it ever bordered on competition.

And I'm sure there are beter pmotions out there than TNA, but none of them will get the money or support to go out there. At the end of the day, the WWE's got backing that nothing short of Turner's return to wrestling could match. It's hard to get recognition when you're being stacked up against something that big. You could have the best wrestlers in the world and never stack up to them...And then they'd try and hire your talent anyway.

The best hope for improved wrestling is competition, and I think the WWE will do their best to keep that from happening in the long run. TNA may start to look like a viable competitor, but I think if they ever come close, the WWE will do their best to buy them. They are a monopoly and will seek to remain one, and the quality suffers because there's no reason to actually improve. Ratings are slipping, making wrestling look less appealing to the market in general, and making companies less likely to back another promotion, because who needs a second program when there's no money in the first?

**kinglacoste** · 11-07-2005, 02:11 AM

respect i have for double k

**What Would Kevin Do?** · 11-07-2005, 02:18 AM

I agree that major backing is needed to be successful. And unfortunately, I think if TNA were to get that backing, they still couldn't pull it off. TNA's wrestling may be better, but their product isn't. I'm finally reminded why I never really watched WCW over WWF. Because while they may have the better wrestling, dare I say, WWF just seemed to be more entertaining.

So I think TNA is fighting a losing battle.

ROH on the other hand, I think if they had the money, could put up a fight. The question is, who is going to back them? Turner... Doubtful. The only other possible major backer I could think of would be NJPW, who seems to have a nice working deal with ROH right now. Besides American exposure though, I don't know what Inoki would get out of it.

As irrelevant as it may be, I think if WWE let's Heyman go, we may see a change. Heyman, if put in control, I believe could turn TNA around. Honestly though, the wrestlers are important, but the booking is more important. Goldberg was horrible.... Hogan was never good... It was the booking that made them stars. TNA needs something to suck people in right now. It's not Jarrett, it's not Raven, and it's not their 6-sided ring. I'd like it to be Daniels, but it won't be. They need someone who appears as a legit threat. Maybe someone like Samoa Joe.

Anywho, I'm rambling.

**Hired Hitman** · 11-07-2005, 02:25 AM

I have only saw NWA:TNA once, but their biggest problem is using old WWE talent, to look good they need to bring in younger guys who the fans don't know and build them into great characters, Otherwise people will just see them as wrestlers that couldn't cut it in the WWE.

**What Would Kevin Do?** · 11-07-2005, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hired Hitman

I have only saw NWA:TNA once, but their biggest problem is using old WWE talent, to look good they need to bring in younger guys who the fans don't know and build them into great characters, Otherwise people will just see them as wrestlers that couldn't cut it in the WWE.

True, but they need new guys who aren't "Generic" no matter how awesome they are, they have to have their own identity and be recognizable for something. Take AJ for example. He's awesome, but he has no real look to him.

**The Naitch** · 11-07-2005, 03:08 AM

didnt TNA have Hogan for a while? And Sting? So yeah, they need to build the company around NEW stars that the public is not aware of just like The Rock, Stone Cold, and Triple H were the new stars of the WWF when they were coming up

**The Naitch** · 11-07-2005, 03:10 AM

Styles has it

Daniels needs to bulk up. I dont care what you think. No one is gonna take a bald headed bonerack seriously these days. Well the casual fan won't atleast. Plus the FALLEN ANGEL chants just make me cringe.

V · 11-07-2005, 03:43 AM

I never really thought about that. Everyone waiting for TNA to get big would be hugely dissapointed if WWE buys them out. And yeah you've made it clear that it is likely.

I agree with WWKD as well, generic white guy wrestlers with the same haircut can only get so far. They need a good look.

Austin, Rock, Taker, Cena (clothing), Brock, Hogan... almost every single person who's made it big has had a unique look to them.

There are probably a lot that didn't though the only one i can think of right now is Randy Orton.. but he's got the legend killer gimmick

**The Naitch** · 11-07-2005, 03:52 AM

Orton is still too generic and he still misses that "one thing" that seperates himself from the likes of Hogan, Austin, The Rock, and Cena

Orton still falls under the Roddy Pipers, the Triple H's, the Kurt Angles, the Lesnars, because he has the look but doesn't have what it takes to be a household name yet

**Ruien** · 11-07-2005, 04:06 AM

At 3 a.m you gave me something to read, thanks a lot man

**Skippord** · 11-07-2005, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Naitch

Styles has it

Daniels needs to bulk up. I dont care what you think. No one is gonna take a bald headed bonerack seriously these days. Well the casual fan won't atleast. Plus the FALLEN ANGEL chants just make me cringe.

Sabin=The Future

**Corkscrewed** · 11-07-2005, 04:19 AM

Good post, KK. I do agree, but eventually, they'll cross the limit and end up hurting themselves when the reduction in exposure eliminates so many viewers that their massive operations will become liabilities, forcing them to downsize and either start over to climb in quality again or (worst case scenario) send them into a death spiral.

**What Would Kevin Do?** · 11-07-2005, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Naitch

Styles has it

Daniels needs to bulk up. I dont care what you think. No one is gonna take a bald headed bonerack seriously these days. Well the casual fan won't atleast. Plus the FALLEN ANGEL chants just make me cringe.

I disagree. Daniels is one of the most recognizable people on their roster. The shaved head works for him. Plus, there aren't many "big" guys in TNA who he's going to be fighting with anytime soon that make him look small in comparrison... There's Abyss, Rhino, ummm, Nash, Monty Brown, and maybe Samoa Joe. Those guys are pretty much centered around the World Title though.

Here ya go.
http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/index.html

That's their roster page. Now you'd think that they'd use pictures of peeps that would make them look appealling and different than the others... Now how many of them look hella generic?

**Kane Knight** · 11-07-2005, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkscrewed

Good post, KK. I do agree, but eventually, they'll cross the limit and end up hurting themselves when the reduction in exposure eliminates so many viewers that their massive operations will become liabilities, forcing them to downsize and either start over to climb in quality again or (worst case scenario) send them into a death spiral.

Considering they've already lost their Spike TV deal because they wanted to play hardball. a 3.1 rating is considered an improvement over Spike's ratings, and they've been bumped to Friday on UPN, not to mention the numerous cutbacks and firings they had...I'd say there already getting into that ballpark. the problem is, if they don't improve their quality, that might leave us in a place where no-one wants to host wrestling on TV, even if the WWE fucks itself right out of the business.

**Kane Knight** · 11-07-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?

I disagree. Daniels is one of the most recognizable people on their roster. The shaved head works for him. Plus, there aren't many "big" guys in TNA who he's going to be fighting with anytime soon that make him look small in comparrison... There's Abyss, Rhino, ummm, Nash, Monty Brown, and maybe Samoa Joe. Those guys are pretty much centered around the World Title though.

Here ya go.
http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/index.html

That's their roster page. Now you'd think that they'd use pictures of peeps that would make them look appealling and different than the others... Now how many of them look hella generic?

To me, it's not even the generic looks that are killing TNA. It's the generic action. Yeah, the cruiserwe...I mean, X-Division bouts are high flying, extremecorzorzlolol, but the wrestlers have no stylistic differences. Non X-Div matches are even more generic, even when there's someone good in the main event scene.

I could live with generic look wrestlers if they really separated themselves in the ring. Seeing that "generic white high flyer" is something, but caring about who the Hell he is is another story alltogether.

If you're talking generic, Orton was over when he had something to make him worthy of caring about. His look isn't going to turn heads (

), but he had personality in large quantities, and he was able to get noticed and even draw a strong reaction. Now that could be AJ or any of the other "Generic white X-Division guys." if there was something to really set them apart. With no real backstories, nothing in the peronsality department (Currently), and generic and similar "AMAZING" movesets, it's hard to give a shit about total nobody action stars.

**ThruTheWire** · 11-07-2005, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Naitch

Orton is still too generic and he still misses that "one thing" that seperates himself from the likes of Hogan, Austin, The Rock, and Cena

Orton still falls under the Roddy Pipers, the Triple H's, the Kurt Angles, the Lesnars, because he has the look but doesn't have what it takes to be a household name yet

To be honest, Triple H and Kurt Angle are both more of household names than John Cena.

11-07-2005, 02:06 AM	#1
Kane Knight Ron Paul 4 EVA Posts: 152,467	Is the WWE killing wrestling? Vince McMahon has been credited with many things in his life, including making wrestling popular, creating Hulkamania, revolutionising pro wrestling, he's a genius, etc. etc. These days, however, he's more likely to be called an idiot, an asshole, whatever. Even the markiest of marks gets a little pissed off at Vince sometimes, like when he "fired" JR (It's funny watching people asking if Ross is really fired, and bitching that this kills wrestling, but it's happening). While reading the 15 or 16 threads on Christian, something occurred to me that never really sank in before. I'd thought about it in the past, but the whole "Will he be called Christian" thing was kind of a big tipper. After WCW went belly up, when there was pretty much only the WWE, what everyone said was that we really needed some competition. People like Heyman and Bischoff, whether capable on their own, made the WWF interesting because the F was forced to kick it up a notch on a regular basis. Even bad competition could be good for us, the WWF-loving public. Now, Vince has bought wrestling history. He's got the rights to tons of footage, multiple promotions, and the best (By best I mean biggest and most successful) promotion in town, can put more money into a show, can basically trump anyone on the market. Much as I love watchig Cruiserweights capped at 3 moves (Arm drag, monkey flip, and their finisher), or the virtual monopoly he's created here, I wonder: Has this killed professional wrestling as we know it (In this country)? The WWE has trademarked Christian, though it looks like Reso has a legit claim to the mark. No worries, he could challenge that, right? Right, except the WWE has a lot of money to throw around if they want to make things difficult for wrestlers. Considering their impunity with the WWFund, I'd say the threat of an indy wrestler is really small. With the Dudleyz, it was a little less surprising, but they did go to the point of anal minutia on the trademarking there. Then there's talent. The WWE can afford to buy the up and comers and not even use them. Kazarian, Kash, Kennedy (Kidding), they can pay to bring a guy in from another promotion and not really even be bothered to use him. I wonder if even the promotions are safe, or if TNA would be snatched up by the WWE and swallowed whole if it ever bordered on competition. And I'm sure there are beter pmotions out there than TNA, but none of them will get the money or support to go out there. At the end of the day, the WWE's got backing that nothing short of Turner's return to wrestling could match. It's hard to get recognition when you're being stacked up against something that big. You could have the best wrestlers in the world and never stack up to them...And then they'd try and hire your talent anyway. The best hope for improved wrestling is competition, and I think the WWE will do their best to keep that from happening in the long run. TNA may start to look like a viable competitor, but I think if they ever come close, the WWE will do their best to buy them. They are a monopoly and will seek to remain one, and the quality suffers because there's no reason to actually improve. Ratings are slipping, making wrestling look less appealing to the market in general, and making companies less likely to back another promotion, because who needs a second program when there's no money in the first? �There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old�s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.� --John Rogers

11-07-2005, 02:11 AM	#2
kinglacoste Posts: 361	respect i have for double k

11-07-2005, 02:18 AM	#3
What Would Kevin Do? Ninja Mod, Esquire Posts: 12,676	I agree that major backing is needed to be successful. And unfortunately, I think if TNA were to get that backing, they still couldn't pull it off. TNA's wrestling may be better, but their product isn't. I'm finally reminded why I never really watched WCW over WWF. Because while they may have the better wrestling, dare I say, WWF just seemed to be more entertaining. So I think TNA is fighting a losing battle. ROH on the other hand, I think if they had the money, could put up a fight. The question is, who is going to back them? Turner... Doubtful. The only other possible major backer I could think of would be NJPW, who seems to have a nice working deal with ROH right now. Besides American exposure though, I don't know what Inoki would get out of it. As irrelevant as it may be, I think if WWE let's Heyman go, we may see a change. Heyman, if put in control, I believe could turn TNA around. Honestly though, the wrestlers are important, but the booking is more important. Goldberg was horrible.... Hogan was never good... It was the booking that made them stars. TNA needs something to suck people in right now. It's not Jarrett, it's not Raven, and it's not their 6-sided ring. I'd like it to be Daniels, but it won't be. They need someone who appears as a legit threat. Maybe someone like Samoa Joe. Anywho, I'm rambling.

11-07-2005, 02:25 AM	#4
Hired Hitman The Next Great One н� Posts: 18,684	I have only saw NWA:TNA once, but their biggest problem is using old WWE talent, to look good they need to bring in younger guys who the fans don't know and build them into great characters, Otherwise people will just see them as wrestlers that couldn't cut it in the WWE.

11-07-2005, 03:08 AM	#6
The Naitch RAPTURE READY. Posts: 31,936	didnt TNA have Hogan for a while? And Sting? So yeah, they need to build the company around NEW stars that the public is not aware of just like The Rock, Stone Cold, and Triple H were the new stars of the WWF when they were coming up

11-07-2005, 03:10 AM	#7
The Naitch RAPTURE READY. Posts: 31,936	Styles has it Daniels needs to bulk up. I dont care what you think. No one is gonna take a bald headed bonerack seriously these days. Well the casual fan won't atleast. Plus the FALLEN ANGEL chants just make me cringe.

11-07-2005, 03:43 AM	#8
V Formerly Ġoh�ń3k Posts: 5,009	I never really thought about that. Everyone waiting for TNA to get big would be hugely dissapointed if WWE buys them out. And yeah you've made it clear that it is likely. I agree with WWKD as well, generic white guy wrestlers with the same haircut can only get so far. They need a good look. Austin, Rock, Taker, Cena (clothing), Brock, Hogan... almost every single person who's made it big has had a unique look to them. There are probably a lot that didn't though the only one i can think of right now is Randy Orton.. but he's got the legend killer gimmick

11-07-2005, 03:52 AM	#9
The Naitch RAPTURE READY. Posts: 31,936	Orton is still too generic and he still misses that "one thing" that seperates himself from the likes of Hogan, Austin, The Rock, and Cena Orton still falls under the Roddy Pipers, the Triple H's, the Kurt Angles, the Lesnars, because he has the look but doesn't have what it takes to be a household name yet

11-07-2005, 04:06 AM	#10
Ruien MVP Mark Posts: 16,451	At 3 a.m you gave me something to read, thanks a lot man

11-07-2005, 04:19 AM	#12
Corkscrewed Posts: 18,357	Good post, KK. I do agree, but eventually, they'll cross the limit and end up hurting themselves when the reduction in exposure eliminates so many viewers that their massive operations will become liabilities, forcing them to downsize and either start over to climb in quality again or (worst case scenario) send them into a death spiral.