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Old 12-21-2005, 06:23 AM   #1
What Would Kevin Do?
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Wrestler's need to learn... Seriously
I was thinking about this earlier today. In WWE, TNA, wherever, you have feuds. Hell, you have guys who don't even feud persay, but wrestle a lot (See Shelton/Carlito. They aren't feuding, but every few weeks they seem to fight.) We'll call these rivalries I guess. Anywho, is it me, or do people just not learn?

Let's go back to ECW. RVD Vs Jerry Lynn is the perfect example.

Match 1: Jerry Lynn hits a Tornado DDT from the corner.
Match 2: Jerry goes for the same DDT, RVD reverses it into a Northern Lights Suplex
Match3: Same DDT, RVD goes to reverse, but Lynn rereverses it back into the DDT

Match 4: RVD goes for the Northern lights counter, and before Lynn can reverse it, he throws him forward onto his feet and hits a kick or something.

Match 5: Same thing, but Lynn ducks the kick.

And so on.

We don't see this much in the WWE. The most recent one I can think of is Carlito and Shelton, where Carlito finally reversed Shelton's neckbreaker suplex reversal. A lot of times, especially with certain wrestlers, it's like you're watching the same match over. Wrestler's need to learn, and the matches need to involve with new counters/innovations.

Mysterio is a prime example. He nearly ALWAYS does the same moves/reversals, yet no one learns them. Especially his little bulldog or DDT reveral. Same thing with Angle. People always seem to reverse the Angle slam by sliding off his back, yet he hasn't really learned a counter for that yet ( Maybe a quick modified drop toe hold into an attempted Ankle lock when they land behind him.)

In an ideal world, next time HBK and Shelton fights, I'd love to see the springboard into Sweet Chin music again, only for Shelton to expect it, catch Shawn's foot, land on his feet while holding the foot, and yank him into the Exploder.

ANywho, does anyone else see what I'm saying, or care?



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Maybe next time you will be more of a go getter like What Would Kevin Do?

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Old 12-21-2005, 06:35 AM   #2
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The WWE is so scripted it's scary, they are only doing whatever the road agents tell them.

I'm sure if they went out there and had the type of match they wanted to have, things would be different
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Old 12-21-2005, 06:50 AM   #3
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yes, they would learn, like for example, Shelton would learn to tell the ref. to make sure Carlito doesn't grab the ropes.
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Old 12-21-2005, 12:27 PM   #4
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I completely agree and have nothing more to add at this point in time.
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Old 12-21-2005, 12:39 PM   #5
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they've done that with taker/orton on the tombstone reversals and the chockeslam-reversal-rko finisher too

but i understand what you mean
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:08 PM   #6
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Sweet ass reversals help make a match even better.
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:17 PM   #7
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Agreed.

But I think part of it could be the writers just not knowing enough to tell them. Or they're still too "green" (in that way) to realize it.

Either that, or it's all part of the whole 'tone down' thing where they can't do anything flashy.



But yeah, it's sorta annoying how to this day, almost no one's countered that bulldog Mysterio does.
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:37 PM   #8
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Yeah, it would be cool and all, but you forget the wrestlers only have like 5 moves a piece, and they have to use them in a certain order.
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Old 12-21-2005, 02:44 PM   #9
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Agreed, but you forget that they don't think enough of us to change things up, we're not supposed to notice, remember?
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Old 12-21-2005, 03:31 PM   #10
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I was thinking the same exact thing. I hate when someone is mounting Taker is the corner with punches on the second rope, pose, and then get caught in a Last Ride. I mean, they must have done that counter about 3 or 4 times in the Taker/Orton rivalry.

I think new counters and reversals really add a lot to matches. For example, maybe when Orton gets put up for the Last Ride, he slips out and does his inverted neckbreaker (and have the announcers say that Orton set himself for that purposely). I dunno, it just makes the matches more fun to watch by seeing new counters.
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Old 12-21-2005, 05:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorkchop
Sweet ass reversals help make a match even better.
Sweet ass reversals that are built each time a pair who has fought on numerous times before help make a fued better.

Honestly, if you have a pair of guys like say...oh let's take Shelton and Carlito for example. Two up and coming stars with definitly different styles. Each time they go up against each other, they keep reversing and reversing until the announcers, and us, can tell that they know each other so well, they can tell when something's going to happen. And you keep building on the match, say by making the match longer and longer each time. Doesn't even have to be noticiable either. Maybe by...15 seconds or so. Until a PPV where they have a big pay-off match where one or both shows off an incredable new move that no one has seen before. That's how you do that I'd say.
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Old 12-21-2005, 05:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volare
they've done that with taker/orton on the tombstone reversals and the chockeslam-reversal-rko finisher too

but i understand what you mean
Really? I've noticed the same counters being used every match (Orton grabs Taker with the RKO when he's going for a Chokeslam). All pretty standard stuff.

It's a great idea, but it would only work if the WWE let its talented guys be talented. Simon Dean can't even win a match let alone get into a series of exciting matches with other talent.
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Old 12-22-2005, 07:43 PM   #13
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Well Orton for the first time since Kane at WM14 countered Taker's tombstone with his own.
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Old 12-22-2005, 09:18 PM   #14
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but got Pwned!! and i mean Pwned!!! Bah God!!! (got too excited...sorry ) on the re-counter
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Old 12-22-2005, 09:19 PM   #15
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I completely agree and have nothing more to add at this point in time.
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:13 AM   #16
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Maybe today's wrestlers should study the old tapes of Bret Hart, British Bulldog, Ted DiBiase, HBK pre-DX, Curt Hennig, Owen Hart, Marty Janetty in his Rocker days, Stone Cold ... the list is endless.

The Attitude Era was great for entertaining storylines, but for a well thought out match which you could believe wasn't choreographed I believe you need to look pre-1997, more specifically pre-Montréal, and especially at these guys, to find it.
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Old 12-24-2005, 07:44 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Youell
The WWE is so scripted it's scary
Which is kinda sad, if it's so scripted so much, it should be able to tell a decent story -- which is what the original post is getting at.

WWE has sort of lost the art of telling great stories...even in the Attitude era, there seemed to be continuity holes, illogical follow-ups, and stuff that just didn't make sense.

Great storytelling is what (modern) pro wrestling is all about.
A good feud is nothing without a story (whether it be a string of losses followed up by wins with something to tie it all together as illustrated in the original post, or something like "Stephanie loves Kurt Angle" behind it).
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Old 12-24-2005, 09:00 AM   #18
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Its so samey, especially on Raw. Problem is they rehash the matches ALL the time. I mean, in a Heavyweight title feud, there's at least 3/4 single PPV matches now. Look at Cena and Angle. They've tried to freshen it up by giving Cena an awfully performed submission move, but its pretty much failed. I think we will see Cena vs Angle at least once more in some form before NYR.

As others have said, the stories compared to the Attitude era are terribly written/performed. The difference is, then, you had top notch actors like Foley, The Rock, Austin, Vince. Now you have people like Cena (who CANNOT act).
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:09 PM   #19
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i dont know if anyone will agree with me on this but one hell of a match i thought was breat hart vs piper at WM 8..great moves, went back and fourth, and it could've ended at any time.
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