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Old 11-29-2006, 06:49 PM   #1
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Let's take a moment to talk about Raven
If there was one wrestler who I feel fell short of his potential it was Raven. Maybe it was because ECW didn't have other incredible talents, but once he left ECW the first time, it has just been a mess. His run in WCW was fantastic and he had heat on him like a mother fucker, yet WCW blew it and let him wonder around aimlessly for too much...plus the gimmicks they got him in were a shame at best. Going back to ECW, his return pop was something that I as a wrestling fan will never forget. It was like Jesus had come down from Heaven, but ultimately his teaming with Dreamer and then Mike Awesome just left so much to be desired. He shows up in WWE, right off the bat he gets his nytch, granted he wasn't as over as they were hoping, but he could have grown so much if they invested anything into him other than Tazz's ECW friend here to help beat up Jerry Lawler. He to this day remains the only person who made me watch HeAT every week. It was delightful, and then he's dropped. He goes to TNA...and that was pure ego on Jeff Jarrett. He was over, he was destined, he was golden and could have taken TNA to another place entirely...but no. They fucked it up and correct me if I'm wrong, but to this day I don't think they have had a single PPV come close to the buyrates they had when Raven was supposed to win the Title. The sad thing is, his body is a mess, he can barely move, and yet he still has that certain x-factor about him that if you gave him one month of a decent program, he could be a legit contender. I think it's sad, because Raven is one of those once in a generation performers who can take anything, work it, and give you gold. The only other person who I could compare him to in my lifetime would be Roddy Piper. And there too, brillient and yet never allowed to take control of the reigns. God damn shame.

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Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? View Post
I would have no problem with HBK getting a farewell run with the title before he retires.

With that said though, there is no belt in the industry that HBK could win that would add to his career. HBK's career is built around him being HBK, not winning a bunch of titles.
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Old 11-29-2006, 07:01 PM   #2
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I argee with some the of things you said, but Raven doesn't have the "X-factor" anymore.

Raven is now a total joke
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Old 11-29-2006, 07:11 PM   #3
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Raven was the fucking man, and if the WCW or WWE would have gotten behind him he could have made a much more significant splash in wrestling. But hell, who knows. Maybe if WCW or the WWE would have gotten behind him, he'd never have gotten himself off of drugs and would probably be dead as a result.

I must agree with legend when he says Raven is a complete joke now though. TNA has booked him so piss poorly since his intial 2003 debut and Raven the GLADIATOR and Raven in WHITE makes me laugh.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:28 PM   #4
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Yea talk about a fall from grace. Raven was pretty well used in WCW, its probably one of the only young talents they used decent. He was wasted in WWE, but then again so was Tazz, and he was just unfortunately there at a time where there was a lot going on.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:03 PM   #5
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Im with you totally man, Raven rocks. He was brilliant in ECW and WCW, in TNA he kicks ass too. His feud with Jarrett was one of the best ever.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:22 PM   #6
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Raven has always been one of my favorites due to his run in WCW. The character just sucked you in, and Raven's mic skills are rivaled by very few. He could make you believe what he was saying and doing were his real emotions and actions. WWE blew it with him, and TNA put him on the right track again. Unfortunately, his health issues have hindered who he is in the ring, and it makes it difficult for me to watch him anymore. I still have the utmost respect for what he did for me as a wrestling fan, but I couldn't seriously get behind a Raven run at the top.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The One
If there was one wrestler who I feel fell short of his potential it was Raven. Maybe it was because ECW didn't have other incredible talents, but once he left ECW the first time, it has just been a mess. His run in WCW was fantastic and he had heat on him like a mother fucker, yet WCW blew it and let him wonder around aimlessly for too much...plus the gimmicks they got him in were a shame at best. Going back to ECW, his return pop was something that I as a wrestling fan will never forget. It was like Jesus had come down from Heaven, but ultimately his teaming with Dreamer and then Mike Awesome just left so much to be desired. He shows up in WWE, right off the bat he gets his nytch, granted he wasn't as over as they were hoping, but he could have grown so much if they invested anything into him other than Tazz's ECW friend here to help beat up Jerry Lawler. He to this day remains the only person who made me watch HeAT every week. It was delightful, and then he's dropped. He goes to TNA...and that was pure ego on Jeff Jarrett. He was over, he was destined, he was golden and could have taken TNA to another place entirely...but no. They fucked it up and correct me if I'm wrong, but to this day I don't think they have had a single PPV come close to the buyrates they had when Raven was supposed to win the Title. The sad thing is, his body is a mess, he can barely move, and yet he still has that certain x-factor about him that if you gave him one month of a decent program, he could be a legit contender. I think it's sad, because Raven is one of those once in a generation performers who can take anything, work it, and give you gold. The only other person who I could compare him to in my lifetime would be Roddy Piper. And there too, brillient and yet never allowed to take control of the reigns. God damn shame.
Raven is one of those very few people that once he stepped in the ring, he didn't need to be a good wrestler to get people to love the match. His match with Terry Funk at Barley Legal from a technical stand point was grabage, but he was so over as a heel to that audiance and Funk was so over as a face the match was good because of that buzz. Guys like Raven was the reason for the success of ECW that Raven/Funk match at Barley Legal has the fans buzzing like Hogan and Andre were squaring off.

I'm usually a big defender of TNA but Raven is the prime example of them missing the boat, not once but twice. In 2003 he should have beaten Jeff Jarrett for the World Championship. Not only did they not have Raven win but they made him look so weak. He had so much help in that match and still lost, making him look like a jackass. But TNA created an oppertunity to make up for that sin.

In 2005 they gave him the title at Slammiversary and right then they could have made a great feud between him and Jarrett, and then did, sort of. Raven held the belt for I think 2 months and then that Canadian screw job thing happened on a non-televised event. When I saw that, unlike most, I was thrilled. It made Jarrett look like a total coward regaining that title. However, that whole things works only predicated on Raven getting revenge, which he never did.

They should have never booked Nash versus Jarrett as the main event of Bound for Glory, it should have been Jarrett versus Raven for the title. This time you have Jarrett have all the help in the world but Raven still wins in the end. It would have been perfect. Instead Raven didn't even wrestle at Bound for Glory because of some bullshit feud with Larry Zbyscko, it was utter nonsense. The even had the shot at doing this last minute with Nash not showing at the PPV. Have Raven win the battle royal and enter in the main event, but he didn't even wrestle. One of the most unforgivable storyling mishaps I've ever seen.

As for Raven being a joke now, I don't think so. Sure he dresses up silly and they don't give him much air time. But when Raven takes the mic you always have the potential for some great storyline. If TNA were smart they'd give that guy creative control over his storylines, and watch as the phoenix rises from the ashes.

When Raven desides to hang up his boots TNA would be nuts not to offer that man a job as a commentator for TNA. I was listening to old WWF Home Video stuff when he did commentary, and him then is better the both Tenay and West. In fact their commentary should be Kevin Nash and Raven, that'd be awesome.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:45 PM   #8
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Personally Raven was/ or still is one of the most entertaining wrestlers to ever step inside the squared circle, he had that something that made him likable whether a heel or a face, he was beyond over, fans everywhere seemed to like him, and every promotion fucked it up, he could have been one of the biggest stars in the history of wrestling.

I remember his WWF Hardcore Title runs, when the show was over I thought to myself just another 168 hours. I loved it when he was a hardcore wrestler some people didn't, but when he brought that shopping cart to the ring with everything, and in the words of JR " Baw Gawd, he brought the kitchen sink" was a wrestling moment imprinted in my head.
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Old 11-30-2006, 01:42 AM   #9
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I don't exactly have much productive to add to this thread..anyone who knows me know that I'm a huge mark for Raven and he's my all time favorite.

I do have to say though..Nash/Raven would be an excellent commentary team. Hilarity would ensue.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:58 AM   #10
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He was pretty good in WCW and ECW. WWE Raven was a joke. Now I don't really care anymore.
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Old 11-30-2006, 03:36 AM   #11
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Is Raven on meth or something? He looks so different now.
I dont know why TNA hasnt used him better.
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Old 11-30-2006, 03:50 AM   #12
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I'm not making excuses for WWE, they certainly should have showcased him better, but a lot of its a result of terrible timing.
He came in the company at a time where WWE had Rock, Austin, Triple H, Undertaker, Kane in their prime, and 3 quickly rising stars in Angle Jericho and Benoit. With guys on the midcard like Guererro and Rikishi getting over huge, Raven got lost in the cracks.
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:51 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
I'm not making excuses for WWE, they certainly should have showcased him better, but a lot of its a result of terrible timing.
He came in the company at a time where WWE had Rock, Austin, Triple H, Undertaker, Kane in their prime, and 3 quickly rising stars in Angle Jericho and Benoit. With guys on the midcard like Guererro and Rikishi getting over huge, Raven got lost in Rikishi's crack.
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:15 AM   #14
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Raven: Great promo skills, great ring pyscology (sp?) average wrestler.

He knows how to put a match together no doubt, I have the 2 volumes of secrets of the ring and found them valuable, but the guy IMO wasn't a great wrestler. Very good performer though
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Youell
Raven: Great promo skills, great ring pyscology (sp?) average wrestler.

He knows how to put a match together no doubt, I have the 2 volumes of secrets of the ring and found them valuable, but the guy IMO wasn't a great wrestler. Very good performer though
Genrally when I say wrestler I mean the the performance thing along with the actual wrestling, but in any case you're right.
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:24 PM   #16
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He amounted to nothing. There, I talked about him.
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:33 PM   #17
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I loved Raven in WCW. Now, he looks terrible.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:22 AM   #18
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Raven had perhaps the most brilliant line in all of WCW history. His mom was looking for him and he said something to the lines that she saw it as an opportunity to get on Television. If Judy Bagwell can be a Tag Team Champion, then she can Spear Goldberg and Become World Champion. It's quoted on my sig, I just don't feel like looking it up right now.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:27 AM   #19
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I remember watching Raven repeatedly DDT Scotty Riggs, while yelling at him on the microphone at the same time. That was awesome.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:46 AM   #20
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Honestly, I always felt like Raven was typecast as a middle of the card guy in the bigger companies, when he "couldn't" ever make it past the US Title in WCW. Same for guys like Shane Douglas in my opinion, or Tazz in the WWF, only I think the WWF really could've capitalized on Raven if they would've made him bigger at the time. Make him more manipulative and give him a "Flock", even though it'd been done before, Hell, especially because it'd been done before. Have him manipulate his way into high profile matches with the authority figures; even have him draw on his past with Foley after Foley became Commissioner. Have Raven's "mind control" over Foley something Foley "just couldn't shake, even after all these years", or something. All just my own opinion, mind you.
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Old 12-01-2006, 08:34 AM   #21
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^^

I remember reading a WWF magazine that had an article about Raven starting a flock. It never happened. Wasn't even hinted at on television. Another thing I remember hearing was that he had been doing a storyline along the lines of Se7en on Heat and that he was due to bring it to Raw/SmackDown! just before his release. That would have rocked IMO.

In regards to his "X-Factor", I think he had it in abundance. TBH I haven't even seen that many Raven matches (as I didn't watch ECW/WCW back in the day) but I still loved the character. Marked so heavy when he debuted at Unforgiven 2000.
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Old 12-01-2006, 08:38 AM   #22
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Thing is with Raven, he's never had any horrible matches, but he's never had any really good ones either IMO
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Old 12-01-2006, 09:23 AM   #23
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Old 12-01-2006, 06:33 PM   #24
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Bring back Johnny Polo, and put him in Jerry Lawler's chair on Raw.
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