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Old 01-02-2007, 07:05 PM   #1
Androy67
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Should WWE change the way matches are refereed?
Maybe have a storyline where Vince McMahon announces that there will be a second referee involved in the match to oversee any sort of cheating done when the other ref is knocked out? Because the whole thing of the referee getting knocked out, the slow three count, cheating while the ref is koed etc etc has been done to death, I would say.
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Old 01-02-2007, 07:08 PM   #2
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Here's an idea: Don't book the bumps/unseen cheating/slow counts!
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Old 01-02-2007, 07:11 PM   #3
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Yeah, but wouldn't that change the whole universe of the wrestling world if all of that was suddenly scrapped? At least with having a new referee you could have new storyline ideas, have new faces go over more fairly, have the heels bitch more because they can't cheat anymore, and so on and so forth. It would bring a new sense of freshness to wrestling, at least for a little while.
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Old 01-02-2007, 07:13 PM   #4
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Honestly, it'd be easier just to start booking another way. Sure, a "special enforcer" type of deal could probably be used more often than it has been, but not on a regular basis, as there still has to be that ref bump/cheating once in a while.
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Old 01-02-2007, 07:26 PM   #5
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Instant Replay. The wrestler who loses throws the red flag.
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Old 01-02-2007, 08:08 PM   #6
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^lol
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Old 01-02-2007, 08:09 PM   #7
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I don't know if having two referees is a good idea, but I was just thinking about referee's the other day. I think they should be used in storylines more.

Kind of make Nick Patrick the heel referee. Not completely evil, just willing to overlook some rules. As a former old-school wrestler, he could sympathise with the doing what it takes attitudes of some wrestlers. Maybe have Jimmy Kordares file for the position of Senior Official, as he does have more refereeing experience, apparently.

Of course, they shouldn't dedicate too much time to these programs, but they could give the referees bios on WWE.com, address which wrestler has the advantage with what referee, etc.

On a semi-related note, I'd like to see some matches have "Anything Goes" outside the ring, with the rules only being enforced inside it. Maybe this could be used for ECW? That way wrestlers can go extreme without really making every match an "Extreme Rules" match.

I think separate reffing styles for each official, and each brand in general, would be a lot of fun. Maybe have Special Guest Referees used a lot more, but without there being some kind of impending screwjob. Like how Jacqueline used to sometimes referee.
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Old 01-02-2007, 08:24 PM   #8
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if melina gets up on the apron the ref throws a yellow flag at her and gives nitro a 5 yards penelty.
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Old 01-02-2007, 08:26 PM   #9
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I think DOUG BASHAM should be the outside enforcer for EVERY match.
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Old 01-02-2007, 09:06 PM   #10
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Can't go wrong with DOUG BASHAM.
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Old 01-02-2007, 09:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveWadding
I think DOUG BASHAM should be the outside enforcer for EVERY match.
Meh, I'd rather see him IN every match.
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:28 PM   #12
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Reff in-ring with a reff outside?
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Old 01-03-2007, 04:05 PM   #13
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Reff in-ring with a reff outside?
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
On a semi-related note, I'd like to see some matches have "Anything Goes" outside the ring, with the rules only being enforced inside it. Maybe this could be used for ECW? That way wrestlers can go extreme without really making every match an "Extreme Rules" match.
So that's where you made the comment. I'd love to see this shit again. Don't think it'd happen, but you're right. It could make ECW interesting. Inside the ring, unless it's "ECW rules," Everything is safe and shit, but you can go outside and beat the fuck out of people with whatever. You don't need to do it every match, but it could add some surprise and dimension.
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Old 01-03-2007, 07:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savior
if melina gets up on the apron the ref throws a yellow flag at her and gives nitro a 5 yards penelty.

I LOL'd.
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Old 01-03-2007, 10:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Androy67
Maybe have a storyline where Vince McMahon announces that there will be a second referee involved in the match to oversee any sort of cheating done when the other ref is knocked out? Because the whole thing of the referee getting knocked out, the slow three count, cheating while the ref is koed etc etc has been done to death, I would say.
Wow, you know nothing about ring psychology.
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Old 01-03-2007, 10:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Androy67
Yeah, but wouldn't that change the whole universe of the wrestling world if all of that was suddenly scrapped? At least with having a new referee you could have new storyline ideas, have new faces go over more fairly, have the heels bitch more because they can't cheat anymore, and so on and so forth. It would bring a new sense of freshness to wrestling, at least for a little while.

Tell me you're not serious! Please tell me you're not fucking serious! There is no way anyone can be that stupid! That godforsaken stupid! The role of the ref is vital.

Let's look at this match. Face McFacey vs Heel Heely. Normal match, with one ref.
Face goes for a shoulder block, Heel side steps, but Face stops himself so he doesn't hit the ref. That stall made it possible for Heel to get the upper hand on Face. Later on in the match Heel goes for a shoulder block. Face side steps but Heel doesn't stop. BAM! Ref is hit, knocked out!
Face hit his finisher, the Face Buster, on Heel, and pins Heel for a 57 count. Oh! No! The ref is still knocked out! Face tries to wake the ref up. As the ref starts to get back with it Heel uppercuts Face in the nuts, and rolls him, grabs the tights, 1-2-3, Heel win.
Now if your stupid idea of having another ref out there is serious, there goes half the match right now. Face wins, no drama.
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Old 01-03-2007, 11:21 PM   #18
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Changing the Universe of wrestling at this point would be a good thing.
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Old 01-03-2007, 11:42 PM   #19
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This guy ends up sounding like a total mark.
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FourFifty
Face McFacey vs Heel Heely
Then lightning strikes the ring, and the two merge, to form...

Nah, it'd never work.
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:19 AM   #21
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It's still real to him, damnit!
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:20 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face Heely
Then lightning strikes the ring, and the two merge, to form...

Nah, it'd never work.
I knew I didn't make up Heely... I just totally forgot about you...
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:23 AM   #23
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I knew I didn't make up Heely... I just totally forgot about you...
Eh...it happens. Not much of a presence here. Still...
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:07 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
So that's where you made the comment. I'd love to see this shit again. Don't think it'd happen, but you're right. It could make ECW interesting. Inside the ring, unless it's "ECW rules," Everything is safe and shit, but you can go outside and beat the fuck out of people with whatever. You don't need to do it every match, but it could add some surprise and dimension.
I agree, wholeheartedly. Not every match, but it could add some excitement, and make things a bit more unpredictable.

Let's just use a random example: Shannon Moore is facing Test in a match. Test is dominated, but Moore escapes the the outside, Test follows, BAM! Steel chair shot over the head. Shannon Moore rolls Test back into the ring, comes off the turnbuckle with something flashy, and we have...*gasp*...drama.

Test doesn't look any worse in this scenario, but Shannon Moore looks good, looks willing to do whatever it takes, and it would wake the crowd up if they weren't invested in the mat-work of this match.

I think the rule would work best with chicken-shit heels or underdogs in the particular match, or when they want to do a squash, and need to explain how the wrestler was beaten so easily.

I think keeping countouts would be good, however, as it puts a limit on how much hardcore action can take place. They could just call it the "blind eye" rule.
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Old 01-04-2007, 05:49 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by FourFifty
Tell me you're not serious! Please tell me you're not fucking serious! There is no way anyone can be that stupid! That godforsaken stupid! The role of the ref is vital.

Let's look at this match. Face McFacey vs Heel Heely. Normal match, with one ref.
Face goes for a shoulder block, Heel side steps, but Face stops himself so he doesn't hit the ref. That stall made it possible for Heel to get the upper hand on Face. Later on in the match Heel goes for a shoulder block. Face side steps but Heel doesn't stop. BAM! Ref is hit, knocked out!
Face hit his finisher, the Face Buster, on Heel, and pins Heel for a 57 count. Oh! No! The ref is still knocked out! Face tries to wake the ref up. As the ref starts to get back with it Heel uppercuts Face in the nuts, and rolls him, grabs the tights, 1-2-3, Heel win.
Now if your stupid idea of having another ref out there is serious, there goes half the match right now. Face wins, no drama.
You just made my point though: having two referees would end that same old face vs. heel, heel has to win by cheating systematic bullshit. Maybe the heel could maybe, for once *gasp*, actually win cleanly? Or maybe you have liked watching what has basically been the same ideal for a storyline again and again for however you have been watching wrestlingl the same face vs. heel characteristics that you will see everytime you watch wrestling for the rest of your life most likely.

Like I said, this doesn't have to permanent, but rather just a storyline to experiment on new ways to end matches. You could even have a match at Wrestlemania where the main heel finds a way to cheat himself into the world title somehow. If it doesn't work out, have some wrestler feud with McMahon or whomever to have it changed and boom you have a wrestler vs. McMahon feud or something. Then you get same ole' same ole', just how you like it.
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Old 01-04-2007, 09:40 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Androy67
You just made my point though: having two referees would end that same old face vs. heel, heel has to win by cheating systematic bullshit. Maybe the heel could maybe, for once *gasp*, actually win cleanly? Or maybe you have liked watching what has basically been the same ideal for a storyline again and again for however you have been watching wrestlingl the same face vs. heel characteristics that you will see everytime you watch wrestling for the rest of your life most likely.

Like I said, this doesn't have to permanent, but rather just a storyline to experiment on new ways to end matches. You could even have a match at Wrestlemania where the main heel finds a way to cheat himself into the world title somehow. If it doesn't work out, have some wrestler feud with McMahon or whomever to have it changed and boom you have a wrestler vs. McMahon feud or something. Then you get same ole' same ole', just how you like it.
Don't bother responding to FourFifty. He's a sad man who wants us all to pity him for being a lush.
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Old 01-04-2007, 10:08 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FourFifty
Wow, you know nothing about ring psychology.
Wow, this has nothing to do with ring psychology.
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:03 PM   #28
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This is a lot like another idea I kinda played around with a while back where the refs got tired of taking bumps and went on strike. The next couple of weeks would be kinda gimmicky with special guest refs for every match, but after that new rules involving multiple refs and different restrictions on wrestlers would be put into effect on a temporary basis to get the refs back into the ring.

And it wouldn't take away from the matches either. Maybe some of the really brilliant heels would still be able to get away from it, but most would start losing their matches. No biggie since the WWE never lets heels win anymore anyway. After a couple of weeks, though, the faces start getting pretty cocky while the heels are humbled. Sure, the fans will love it at first, but nobody is hated any more than the guy who "sold out". A few fans would start cheering for the underdog heels and the sheep would follow.

Now what we have is a monumental turn of half the roster that happened slowly enough that it isn't in your face like the end of the invasion. WE have a variety of faces: Fresh faced blue chippers, underdogs, a couple of top faces who didn't turn; and a variety of heels: Cocky bullies, evil geniuses, cowards, and cheap heels. The roster is divided into several personality subgroups instead of everyone being the same old school heel/face with another goofy pirate gimmick.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:11 PM   #29
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I do agree that the role of the ref needs to change. There's really no point to have one. I mentioned on here a long time ago that refs should have a bit of personality, and each ref should do things a little different. One ref has a slower count, one ref is faster. Just something. I'm tired of refs getting knocked out for 5 hours from a shoulder block.
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Old 01-04-2007, 10:10 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsonspeed6
This is a lot like another idea I kinda played around with a while back where the refs got tired of taking bumps and went on strike. The next couple of weeks would be kinda gimmicky with special guest refs for every match, but after that new rules involving multiple refs and different restrictions on wrestlers would be put into effect on a temporary basis to get the refs back into the ring.

And it wouldn't take away from the matches either. Maybe some of the really brilliant heels would still be able to get away from it, but most would start losing their matches. No biggie since the WWE never lets heels win anymore anyway. After a couple of weeks, though, the faces start getting pretty cocky while the heels are humbled. Sure, the fans will love it at first, but nobody is hated any more than the guy who "sold out". A few fans would start cheering for the underdog heels and the sheep would follow.

Now what we have is a monumental turn of half the roster that happened slowly enough that it isn't in your face like the end of the invasion. WE have a variety of faces: Fresh faced blue chippers, underdogs, a couple of top faces who didn't turn; and a variety of heels: Cocky bullies, evil geniuses, cowards, and cheap heels. The roster is divided into several personality subgroups instead of everyone being the same old school heel/face with another goofy pirate gimmick.
I remember the WWE actually doing something like this, I think.

The referee's went on strike (don't know the reason, I only saw a PPV from this era), and Jimmy Kordares was the only one who kept working, which apparently made the other refs angry at him. But yeah, I remember Steve Lombardi refereeing a match because they only had Kordares left.

I must say, it'd be sweet to see Dean Malenko serving as referee on SmackDown! because the others are protesting. And I agree, referees need personality. Nick Patrick should be slightly more heelish, not all our crooked, just willing to turn a blind eye. "Little Naitch" Charles Robinson could very easily be given a personality.

Chris Kay is actually trained to be a wrestler. I don't know how far into his training he got, but use that to explain why he's constantly refereeing cruiserweight matches. He is actually of the frame of mind to keep up with them.
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:52 AM   #31
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Okay, where to start….

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulak
Don't bother responding to FourFifty. He's a sad man who wants us all to pity him for being a lush.
I have never asked for anyone’s pity or charity in my life. If I want sympathy I’ll pull out a dictionary and look in between shit and syphilis. Show me one post where I asked for pity. Until you can do that, end of story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor
Wow, this has nothing to do with ring psychology.
This is really hard for me to say, and there’s a chance you’re going to get offended. I understand you’re a wrestler, and I’m just a fan. I wouldn’t say this to you unless I was more than one hundred percent sure of it. Before I start out you need to understand that I have the world of respect for you, and I really hope a “normal internet fan” can make it big some day.
You’re wrong.
Putting a second ref just to be on the outside and make sure no one cheats has everything to do with ring psychology. Take a look at The Undertaker vs. Hulk Hogan, Survivor Series ‘91. If there was a second ref out there to enforce law and order, Paul Bearer wouldn’t have had the chance to choke Hogan a few times. If there was a second referee out there then Ric Flair wouldn’t have been able to slide the chair in the ring so The Undertaker could tombstone Hulk Hogan and get the pin to win the WWF title.
Over a decade later, watch any of the later Eddie Guerrero matches. I’m not going to explain this one. Let’s just keep it at if there was a second ref out there he’d only be able to lie and steal. If a second ref was there he’d tell the first ref everything, or take action himself. The fact that no authority figure in the ring or at ringside didn’t catch him made many of his matches classics.
If you put a second ref out there to enforce the rules, you kill the drama, and the whole reason for heels to cheat… Not to mention faces like Ric Flair, Crime Time, and Eddie Guerrero (plus others, I’m sure).
Now to stray a little off course…
Everything that goes in the arena deals with the psychology. Let’s say you’re watching a fast paced match. Just for namesake let’s make it Super Crazy vs. Jeff Hardy. Let’s make it a hardcore match also. Falls count anywhere. It would be hilarious to watch these two go back and forth, in the air, on the mat, outside of the ring, by the announcer’s table, through the arena, and have this ref scurry all over the place until he’s winded and damn near passes out. Something like that would add credibility to Crazy and Hardy because a normal guy couldn’t keep up at their pace, let alone a trained ref. Now let’s have the same match. The ref just stands there, casually meanders around the two wrestlers, not really giving a shit about his job because let’s face the cold hard facts that it’s predetermined anyways.
I really cannot see any argument for why changing the rules, the storyline, or the number of refs in one match wouldn’t affect ring psychology. Why was Ken Shamrock brought in at WrestleMania 13? It really helped build up the idea that Steve Austin and Bret Hart hated each other to the point where no other ref would want the job. Same with when Chuck Norris was the enforcer for one of The Undertaker’s matches.

Next!
…I mean first….
Quote:
Originally Posted by Androy67
You just made my point though: having two referees would end that same old face vs. heel, heel has to win by cheating systematic bullshit. Maybe the heel could maybe, for once *gasp*, actually win cleanly? Or maybe you have liked watching what has basically been the same ideal for a storyline again and again for however you have been watching wrestlingl the same face vs. heel characteristics that you will see everytime you watch wrestling for the rest of your life most likely.

Like I said, this doesn't have to permanent, but rather just a storyline to experiment on new ways to end matches. You could even have a match at Wrestlemania where the main heel finds a way to cheat himself into the world title somehow. If it doesn't work out, have some wrestler feud with McMahon or whomever to have it changed and boom you have a wrestler vs. McMahon feud or something. Then you get same ole' same ole', just how you like it.
I’ll take the same ole’ same ole’ for the time being, thank you. It’s the formula that saw wrestling through two boom periods. Two different generations of wrestling fans cheered for the good guy when he won cleanly, and booed the bad guy when he cheated (for the most part, of course). No difference between taking your vitamins and drinking your beer. No matter if you did and impressive elbow drop off the top turnbuckle or did and elbow drop after hitting the ropes twice. The rules were the same. Four Pay-Per-Views a year or Forty Pay-Per-Views a year didn’t really matter.
Right now it’s not at its best, I know. Not the best booking, and not the best talent. Most of us realize this on a weekly basis. Some of us twice a week, and few of us three times a week. It might be a few more years until we see another boom period, but when it happens it’ll be with the same rules.
From time to time, pending on the feud, two refs might work out. I was under the impression that for months on end entire cards would be booked with one ref on the outside. Now I do like the idea of a heel finding a way to cheat with a ref on the outside, but not in the main event at Wrestlemania. That’s like wearing jeans and an AC/DC shirt to church on Easter.

Don’t take what I say to heart. Eric Bischoff thought outside of the box, and it made WCW what it was (not what it is). If you’re going to think out of the box, let alone around a crowd of cynics, you will get shit from someone.
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Old 01-05-2007, 08:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by FourFifty
Okay, where to start….


I have never asked for anyone’s pity or charity in my life. If I want sympathy I’ll pull out a dictionary and look in between shit and syphilis. Show me one post where I asked for pity. Until you can do that, end of story.
You say what an alcoholic you are in almost every post. You've also said it in the C-Fed Chat Rooms, and have talked about it non-stop despite no one lstening. Obvious cry for help.
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:20 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06

Of course, they shouldn't dedicate too much time to these programs, but they could give the referees bios on WWE.com

http://www.wwe.com/superstars/wwereferees/

Thay used to at this link, but apparently it's dead now.
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:48 AM   #34
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Yeah, I remember when they used to treat them like the were a little more than scenery.
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulak
You say what an alcoholic you are in almost every post. You've also said it in the C-Fed Chat Rooms, and have talked about it non-stop despite no one lstening. Obvious cry for help.
Go on, post something I did in the c-feds. After that post the day I said it. You'll find that it's over six months old.
Also show me a post of mine where I said I was an alcoholic. Hell, let's make it one step easier for you. Show me a post where I've talked about my drinking habits.
Back up what you say. Just throwing around words doesn't mean anything unless they have meaning.
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:05 PM   #36
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