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Old 01-13-2007, 11:48 PM   #1
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So when did RAW jump the shark?
It's one of the longest running shows on television (I think JR said it was THE longest running once, but I don't know how accurate that is)...and almost every long running show has a point at which it irreversably begins the roll downhill. There's an almost constant stream of bitching about the show from one department or another, but what do you think's the official point at which Raw "jumped the shark?"



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Old 01-13-2007, 11:49 PM   #2
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I believe that RAW IS officially the longest running non-soap and non-news program, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, five words come to mind when I think about RAW jumping the shark...

I SCREWED YOUR BRAINS OUT!
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Old 01-13-2007, 11:52 PM   #3
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SNL is prolly the longest.

Raw "jumped the shark" when austin turned heel imo.
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Old 01-13-2007, 11:55 PM   #4
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Just checked out Wikipedia, and apparently tonight will bring SNL up to only 614 vs. RAW's 711 as of the last RAW.

Considering that SNL works on a more standard season-like schedule, it's not that hard to believe.

Of course, SNL beats out RAW by years, but RAW has SNL by almost 100 in episodes.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:09 AM   #5
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Definatly Rosie vs Donald Trump
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:21 AM   #6
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:21 AM   #7
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Wrestling will never "jump the shark." The business is cyclical. Television is not.

Take Happy Days for example (where the term "jump the shark" actually originated). The show was one of the most popular and highly rated shows on TV (high point), but after Fonzie jumped a fucking shark on his motorcycle, things just went downhill from there (Joanie, Chachi, ridiculous storylines, etc... the low point). It was then cancelled.

Wrestling has definitely had it's high points (the Monday Night Wars being the highest point it's ever been). Clearly, things today in the wrestling world are nowhere near that kind of high point, but WWE and RAW are not in an "irreversible downward trend." They are in a temporary decline.

But WWE, RAW and wrestling in general will rise again.

I just hope I'm still interested enough to pay attention.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Wrestling will never "jump the shark." The business is cyclical. Television is not.
This is not a question about the business. It's a question about RAW in particular.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:25 AM   #9
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K. Well RAW is part of the wrestling business. In fact, it's the STAPLE of the wrestling business as it stands today.

So yeah. It applies.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:27 AM   #10
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It's also a part of television. Which, as you aptly pointed out, has the ability to jump the shark.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:35 AM   #11
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WWE is not a TV Sitcom. It's not Happy Days. It's not BeWitched. It's not fucking Laguna Beach. It's Professional Wrestling, and it cannot be put into the same category as those shows. Those TV shows have a lifespan. Their lifespan is based on the longevity of their characters and storylines, their TV ratings, and the writers' ability to continue to create believable and entertaining episodes.

WWE has given us shit for YEARS. And they're not cancelled. They never will be, until McMahon either dies or pulls the plug on his own company (which will never happen either). Because as long as there is an audience for this white trash level of entertainment, people will tune in, no matter how shit it is (Rosie vs. Trump, K-Fed vs. Cena, Dink and Doink the Clowns, the fucking Repo Man, etc, etc), because the show ALWAYS goes on.

You really think if they had Chandler from friends get into a bar room brawl with, I dunno, for the sake of way-the-fuck-out-there idiocy, Carrot Top, and then they prolonged the storyline where Monica got mad at him and fell in love with Carrot Top, and then they plotted to kill Chandler, and then he made a triumphant return, revealed Carrot Top to be a mass murderer in South Africa, and wins Monica back.

That would end Friends' TV slot in a second. But RAW, and wrestling in general, can pull stupid shit like this all the time, and they will never die.

Because wrestling is NOT a TV Sitcom.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:38 AM   #12
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It's a man's soap opera.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:45 AM   #13
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First and foremost, I never claimed that RAW was comparable to a sitcom. I simply stated that it is on television.

Just because a show jumps the shark doesn't necessarily mean that it has to die. It just means that they've reached a level of ridiculousness that is hard to stomach. Sure, RAW has always had its fair share of shit, but it's usually been able to balance it with a fair amount of worthwhile programming.

Show me where that worthwhile programming is today. What do you honestly tune in for that gets you excited about WWE television? They are beyond the point that they even know what to do anymore besides rehash old shit that we've seen time and time again. And the new shit that we are offered is either beyond horrible, and at best just plain mediocre.

Yes, people continue to tune in and give RAW ratings. But ratings do not mean that the show is any good. Obviously most of us (myself included) watch, but that doesn't mean that they are doing a good job. It's habit to me at this point. Plus, I like to know what direction the STAPLE of the wrestling industry is steering us in.

And the business being cyclical has nothing to do with RAW getting any better. RAW getting better hinges upon getting writers that actually give a damn about the WRESTLING product that they are creating, and not about pushing as much merchandise as humanly possible.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:46 AM   #14
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That makes it sound gay
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:46 AM   #15
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In response to Diesel
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:47 AM   #16
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Also, the Fonz jumped the shark on water skis.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:47 AM   #17
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And the fact that it's 2 half-naked men rolling around with eachother doesn't, Skip?
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:58 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddpBANG
And the fact that it's 2 half-naked men rolling around with eachother doesn't, Skip?
Still not as gay as football.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:04 AM   #19
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Quote:
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And the fact that it's 2 half-naked men rolling around with eachother doesn't, Skip?
Which half?
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
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Which half?
The gay half.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:17 AM   #21
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If I could kill ideas I would kill this thread to death.


But seriously.


The first entrant in the Kiss My Ass Club.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:17 AM   #22
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If the business is cyclical than this is the longest rotation ever. Been shit for years now.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:20 AM   #23
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:22 AM   #24
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Also, the Fonz jumped the shark on water skis.

My bad.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
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If the business is cyclical than this is the longest rotation ever. Been shit for years now.

Said some guy in 1995.

Then the nWo came along.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:27 AM   #26
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Quote:
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SNL is prolly the longest.

Raw "jumped the shark" when austin turned heel imo.
I'd imagine the Tonight Show would be up there somewhere.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:28 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
K. Well RAW is part of the wrestling business. In fact, it's the STAPLE of the wrestling business as it stands today.

So yeah. It applies.
Right. I'd bring up something stupid like Nitro, and how wrestling television, like all television can go away, but I don't think it'd do any good. You'd see through this fallacy as detrimental to your argument and that would be the end of it.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:36 AM   #28
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Nitro and WCW were owned by a corporate media company. When Turner lost control, AOL/TW saw how much money WCW was losing and got rid of them.

McMahon owns WWE. He won't just take his company and trash it. It's his livelihood. And maybe, maybe if the ratings sunk so low, and the TV execs at USA decided RAW should not be aired on their station any longer, then they would disappear. But I'm sure they would show up on another station.

And besides, that won't happen anyways. Because people will ALWAYS like professional wrestling. There will alway be some place for it in America. We may hate this era, but to some little kids, John Cena is their Hulk Hogan. And those stupid little fucks will keep the WWE up and running.

Like I said before:

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Originally Posted by Fox
Because as long as there is an audience for this white trash level of entertainment, people will tune in, no matter how shit it is (Rosie vs. Trump, K-Fed vs. Cena, Dink and Doink the Clowns, the fucking Repo Man, etc, etc), because the show ALWAYS goes on.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:37 AM   #29
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I am part of this audience. I'll probably always watch pro wrestling. I can't fucking help myself.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:39 AM   #30
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Back on topic, if I had to answer... Stephanie McMahon as owner of ECW.

That was a bullshit move that pissed off a lot of people, and was the beginning of the end for the Invasion angle, and the downward trend of WWE TV.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:40 AM   #31
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The beginning of the end of the Invasion angle was Buff Bagwell main eventing.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:41 AM   #32
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Some of you may say this is a little far back and early in the shitstorm that was to come....but in my opinion Raw jumped the shark when Rikishi admitted to running over Stone Cold Steve Austin. Of course things progressively got worse, and there were much worse events before things got "bad".
But I believe this was the first straw of bad decisions beginning in late 2000, and brought about the end of the prestigious Attitude era. After this things just weren't the same.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:43 AM   #33
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The Invasion angle was the beginning of the end of the Invasion angle.


On that note. . .


Nevermind.


I was going to say something about the Invasion (Kurt) Angle, but I decided not to.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:43 AM   #34
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Actually, you know, the whole "The business is cyclical" bit is nonsense, too. I mean, it works, so long as you ignore the factors behind why it was bad pre-Hogan, why it was bad pre-Attitude Era/Austin, and why it's bad now. It's a nice excuse, but really, it's just that. An excuse, with little intellectual content, and no real vailidity.

Sure, it's cyclical--When bad people make bad business decisions, the business will "slump" or hit a "down period." When good programming is put on, surprise!

That's really pointless though. It's not really cyclical in the way people make it out to be, where it'll come around by itself. No, people start watching again when something catches their attention. sorry, that's the way it works. It's also why the argument that there will always be wrestling, even outside the deliberate TV connotation (Which is not a guarantee), is utterly ridiculous. Lots of people have insisted things would never change. Betting on a permanent fixture, especially something that's already niche like wrestling, is like betting that the pop music you grew up on will still be dominant in 30 years. Time is fickle, and so are people. Wrestling evolved, and will either evolve or die. On TV, it doesn't matter how cyclical the business is, either. If ratings for Raw regularly sink to the 2.Xs, not an unfeasable thing, either, then no ammount of "Oh, but our business is cyclical! Give us another 5 years!" will save it. Vince has already found that he's lost leverage, which caused him to go back to USA, where they job to the dog shows, tennis, etc., and found his B-Show bumped to Friday nights. Wrestling is not invincible. It's only remained on TV because its ratings are still decent for cable (And even then, it's not longer near the stranglehold it used to have), which meant that nothing could stop it--As long as it delivered.

But only as long.

WWE alone will not take down wrestling (Though it might take down TV wrestling), but Indie Shows are not immune, either.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:44 AM   #35
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The beginning of the end of the Invasion angle was when WCWs biggest stars in the stable were Austin and Angle.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:45 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
Some of you may say this is a little far back and early in the shitstorm that was to come....but in my opinion Raw jumped the shark when Rikishi admitted to running over Stone Cold Steve Austin. Of course things progressively got worse, and there were much worse events before things got "bad".
But I believe this was the first straw of bad decisions beginning in late 2000, and brought about the end of the prestigious Attitude era. After this things just weren't the same.
That's a good one, too. But atleast back then they tried to do something that moved the audience. I really do admire the effort compared to now.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:48 AM   #37
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Actually wrestling is exactly 6 years cyclical. It has to do with the Earth, Moon, Jupiter, and Uranus' synchronization in the universe, and when it happens, a chemical is released in human beings' brains that makes them love pro wrestling.

A doctor told me.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:49 AM   #38
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Yes but can you admire that effort compared to say...the week before it? It was just stupid beyond stupid. Rikishi hits Austin and gets that push. While it could have easily been Tazz or Jericho, or whoever. It also marked the return of Austin, which for myself as an Austin mark wasn't a bad thing, but if you look at the way the business was moving...it wasn't good.

You now had Austin and Rock at equal popularity under one roof. You had Triple H almost at their level. Undertaker was back and fresh. And Kurt Angle, Benoit and Jericho were all ready to main event. The majority of their other big stars were still around and others were jumping ship to WWE like crazy.

It was the beginning of a time period where there was "too many chiefs and not enough indians" so to speak. And thats what caused people to get buried and things to shit the bed.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:49 AM   #39
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That doctor.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:49 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Actually wrestling is exactly 6 years cyclical. It has to do with the Earth, Moon, Jupiter, and Uranus' synchronization in the universe, and when it happens, a chemical is released in human beings' brains that makes them love pro wrestling.

A doctor told me.
So I suppose we're going to get this chemically-induced hallucination this year?
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