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Old 11-02-2007, 01:47 PM   #1
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Lack of a response from audiences
The only couple of times I've seen Raw lately, it's seemed horribly muted. Of course, this last week, I'm wondering if they dropped out some of the audio, since at points it just disappeared, but I was wondering if this is really typical. I mean, are the crowds really getting to be that dead live?

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”

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Old 11-02-2007, 01:53 PM   #2
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Well, when the matches suck and no one is awesome anymore. And we see the same match we have seen for the past 3 months, what do you expect?
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:22 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Well, when the matches suck and no one is awesome anymore. And we see the same match we have seen for the past 3 months, what do you expect?
Yeah, but it hasn't stopped fans from popping before.
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Old 11-02-2007, 01:58 PM   #4
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It was really noticable this monday but it's been like this for at least a year. I heard Y2J chants during a tag match though.

You know how Bob Holly never gets cheered or booed as evident monday night? Well a lot of guys seems to get that reaction. Even the savior Kennedy gets shit for reaction. Then HBK or HHH come out huge pop.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:21 PM   #5
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Kennedy doesn't get a reaction because he doesn't merit one. He hasn't done shit that is impressive. All he ever did was say his name twice. That got old, now people don't care. I have read he used to be awesome and deliver great promos, but hasn't done shit sence he came to Raw and he has been pushed.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Kennedy doesn't get a reaction because he doesn't merit one. He hasn't done shit that is impressive.
I'd argue otherwise, but I'd much rather point out that it usually doesn't stop fans from cheering. they'll cheer anyone who says their name in a colourful fashion.

Hell, if Bob Holly could be convinced to spell his name funky, half of TPWW would be behind him in about 12 seconds.

OMG HES GOT A CATCHPHRASE NOW HES SUDDENLY VALID.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:27 PM   #7
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Fans are quiet because there's no legitimate star power anymore. Bottom line.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k
Fans are quiet because there's no legitimate star power anymore. Bottom line.
Not only that, but ZERO stars have been created in the last 3 years....atleast ones of which that have become main-eventers.

The WWE is STALE.

I'd make a glorified thread involving a re-unification of the rosters, but this ain't 2004 anymore.

My work here is done.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:27 PM   #9
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KK,

What has Kennedy done that is impressive? His promos are awful and his wrestling is very very average.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman
KK,

What has Kennedy done that is impressive? His promos are awful and his wrestling is very very average.
No, Cody Rhodes is very very average, Kennedy's wrestling if forgetable. I actaully remeber Cody Rhodes' matches.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman
KK,

What has Kennedy done that is impressive? His promos are awful and his wrestling is very very average.
Saying it makes it true.
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Old 11-03-2007, 12:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman
KK,

What has Kennedy done that is impressive? His promos are awful and his wrestling is very very average.
Mr. Kennedy is not the world's greatest wrestler, but he's nowhere near awful. I'd definitely put him in the high B area. Anyone who can carry Batista to good matches is OK with me. Good matches with Batista come very rarely. I can think of good matches with Triple H, The Undertaker and Finlay. Batista idolises The Undertaker, he owes his success to Triple H, and Finlay apparently helped the guy when he was getting started in the WWE. For someone that Batista probably sees as beneath him, Mr. Kennedy got a pretty good result out of Batista.

Kennedy's promos are as good as they are allowed to be. His delivery is actually near-perfect, and he's one of the few guys in the WWE to actually be able to hold my interest when he talks. It's funny to see him interact with guys like Randy Orton, and completely steal the scene, because the other guy is so bland. Most guys are really shit with their promo abilities these days, not just what they say, but how they say it. Communication is something like 80% body language, and Kennedy has that down.

The guy is one of the few guys in the WWE who "gets it," and certainly one of the few guys they are pushing that does. People label him one-trick, and act believe he is overrated, but fuck that. I've watched his promos and been interested, I've seen him wrestle good matches. Call it subjective, but I find Mr. Kennedy pretty damn good.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:34 PM   #13
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By the way, asking me what Ken Kennedy has done that's impressive is pointless. Not because of the subjectivity of the statement, or the fickle nature with which the fans judge one's prowess, but because if you asked me to name something that Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, or Mankind had done that was particularly impressive, I'd probably be unable to answer, either.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
By the way, asking me what Ken Kennedy has done that's impressive is pointless. Not because of the subjectivity of the statement, or the fickle nature with which the fans judge one's prowess, but because if you asked me to name something that Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, or Mankind had done that was particularly impressive, I'd probably be unable to answer, either.
What a terrible answer. That has nothing to do with the quesiton. I personally have not been entertained by Kennedy one bit. Maybe I missed something, so I'd like you to tell me what I missed. I really wanna know why people think the guy is great, because I haven't seen it. Subjective yes, but give me one example of why you like him.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman
What a terrible answer. That has nothing to do with the quesiton.
You fucking moron.

It has everything to do with the question.

It's just not telling you what you want to hear in a fashion you want to hear.

You're asking the wrong person for concrete examples of the greatness of a wrestler. I don't file away wrestling matches like that. It's disposable entertainment. I remember either "I enjoyed that" or "I hated that," And that's about all the data I process.

Therefore, I explained that I cannot give you the definitives you want.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
You fucking moron.

It has everything to do with the question.

It's just not telling you what you want to hear in a fashion you want to hear.

You're asking the wrong person for concrete examples of the greatness of a wrestler. I don't file away wrestling matches like that. It's disposable entertainment. I remember either "I enjoyed that" or "I hated that," And that's about all the data I process.

Therefore, I explained that I cannot give you the definitives you want.
How much wwe do you watch?
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:56 PM   #17
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There's good matches and promos with those four...
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k
There's good matches and promos with those four...
Bret Hart never had a good match or a good promo.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:14 PM   #19
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Like I said (almost 4?) years ago when I used to debate it out with The CyNick:

End The Roster Split. Period. The serious lack of depth in the WWE does NOT warrant 2 medicore brands....let alone 3 shitty brands. Put all the eggs in one basket, get rid of half the titles, and let the cream rise to the top.

Focus on Quality...not quantity. This was one of the contributing factors for the success of the WWF Attitude Era. Keep in mind during that time, they only had RAW and Heat.

The titles need to become bigger than the wrestlers. If Dave Batista gets "demoted" to being an IC champ under a re-united roster, then so be it. If he doesn't like it? Quit. Go to TNA. Let TNA become a viable competitor to the WWE. Competition is good for the industry.

I've made numerous flaws in my above proposal, but fuck that, I'm going with my bah gawd gut!
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman
Like I said (almost 4?) years ago when I used to debate it out with The CyNick:

End The Roster Split. Period. The serious lack of depth in the WWE does NOT warrant 2 medicore brands....let alone 3 shitty brands. Put all the eggs in one basket, get rid of half the titles, and let the cream rise to the top.

Focus on Quality...not quantity. This was one of the contributing factors for the success of the WWF Attitude Era. Keep in mind during that time, they only had RAW and Heat.

The titles need to become bigger than the wrestlers. If Dave Batista gets "demoted" to being an IC champ under a re-united roster, then so be it. If he doesn't like it? Quit. Go to TNA. Let TNA become a viable competitor to the WWE. Competition is good for the industry.

I've made numerous flaws in my above proposal, but fuck that, I'm going with my bah gawd gut!
At this point, it's the best idea. Their title scenes keep getting hurt by injuries. This is ridiculous.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:34 PM   #21
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I still like the multibrand thing, but there should only be one WWE World Heavyweight Champion, not a WWE Champion and World Heavyweight Champion. There also should only be one set of tag team champions. I can live with have the IC, US, and ECW title still a brand specific title. But that would make for things to be more interesting with the brands.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:56 PM   #22
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theoretically, the split was a good idea. the only problem is vince thought dwayne,Steve, mick etc would still be there...
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:59 AM   #23
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WWE missed out on John Cena vs. Dave Batista
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Vegas
theoretically, the split was a good idea. the only problem is vince thought dwayne,Steve, mick etc would still be there...
To be honest, I don't even know if it was a good idea in THEORY. What would the NFL be like with two Super Bowls? Or if Baseball had two world series? Or if the NHL had two Stanley Cups? Granted - each of the above cited examples have seperate conferences, but there is ALWAYS a true #1 team. THIS is what has been KILLING the WWE for 5 years running now IMO.

Creating more titles in the WWE, is the equivalent of the Federal Reserve in the U.S. printing more money. The more there is, the lesser it is in value. Period.

Take boxing for instance - a large reason why the popularity of THEIR sport declined, was because there are too many different titles.

One other HUGE beef I have with the roster split (or the fact there is no true #1 guy in the WWE), is that the WWE missed out on Cena vs. Batista a few years ago. Think about how hot that feud could have been. Remember back in 05' when Batista threw Cena out of the Royal Rumble to win it? It absolutely AMAZES me that the WWE NEVER followed up on that.

Wrestlemania 2006 should have been THEIR main-event.

Anyway - that's just my $0.02.

True stars can NEVER be created in a roster full of jobbers/mid-carders. You can give a guy like Rey Mysterio all the world title reigns you want, but that still won't give him shit for credibility. It just makes the brand look weak....and more importantly, others who are doing the JOB.

Roster split was a shit idea back then, and its a shit idea now....even moreso with the "ingenious" idea of reviving ECW.
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Old 11-02-2007, 04:58 PM   #24
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Personally I believe the area the event is at is a factor as well. Compare the cheers of Philadelphia to Omaha, Nebraska.
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Old 11-02-2007, 08:06 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossrine
Personally I believe the area the event is at is a factor as well. Compare the cheers of Philadelphia to Omaha, Nebraska.
That's why I was asking if it was standard. I don't really have a lot of room for comparison. Watching WWE is borderline painful these days, and I only really watched last week to see SAVE_US not happen.
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Old 11-02-2007, 07:28 PM   #26
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The problem is the wrestlers have no charisma, are built and pushed badly, they can't wrestle and the WWE has no intention of doing anything to change this.

I know this is an over simplification, but the missus wants the computer back
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Old 11-02-2007, 10:24 PM   #27
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A lot of it as well, if you think about the change in booking pattern, is reflective of what they're conditioned to think - guys that people could be built to give a fuck about like Hardy or Kennedy, because they parity book everybody to keep everyone at the same level until the want to move somebody somewhere, any momentum or emotion is meaningless because the guys are on a 50/50 treadmill.
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:15 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k
A lot of it as well, if you think about the change in booking pattern, is reflective of what they're conditioned to think - guys that people could be built to give a fuck about like Hardy or Kennedy, because they parity book everybody to keep everyone at the same level until the want to move somebody somewhere, any momentum or emotion is meaningless because the guys are on a 50/50 treadmill.
That's actually a valid point. I don't think you need to be a smark to notice the trend of "He's over with the fans...LET's SQUASH HIM!" In action.
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Old 11-02-2007, 10:51 PM   #29
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WWE's more worried about the current established stars and pays almost no mind to anyone else. And instead of building up guys who catch on with the fans, they let them flounder about until they are treading water or sinking faster than the Titanic.

The two biggest examples are Shelton Benjamin and Carlito, they were both pretty over at various points but WWE found some reason to not build up their growing popularity. And now the fans just don't give a shit about them because they've been told not to. The same could be said for London and Kendrick, they were pretty popular on Smackdown then they become whipping boys for the Emolanders who the fans have never really cared about.

They are now in a sense doing somewhat the same thing with Kennedy and CM Punk. Now everyone knows I hate Kennedy, but there is no denying that the dude was massively over and then they move him to Raw. Now he's lost in the shuffle and treading the mid card waters. Now part of it is his fault since he lifestyle choices cost him two big payday pushes, but it's not like he couldn't overcome that.

And also with CM Punk, sure he is a title holder, but he is a title holder on the C show. Punk is over which is really good considering how many people actually watch ECW. He needs to be moved to Smackdown so he can get more exposure, yet for now he is stuck with no chance for growth as he's already faced everyone in ECW numerous times.

Fans want a reason to react to more than five guys, but the company doesn't give them any reason. Fans want to be surprised, not the sense of "Oh, John Cena is wrestling. Well we know he wins, whoopie." Watch and listen to the reaction Shelton Benjamin got when he beat Triple H his first night on Raw. That is how you make a star, but the key is to FOLLOW UP. If you don't build up on that, the fans will forget all about it and then will stop caring.
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Old 11-03-2007, 12:41 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingofOldSchool
WWE's more worried about the current established stars and pays almost no mind to anyone else. And instead of building up guys who catch on with the fans, they let them flounder about until they are treading water or sinking faster than the Titanic.

The two biggest examples are Shelton Benjamin and Carlito, they were both pretty over at various points but WWE found some reason to not build up their growing popularity. And now the fans just don't give a shit about them because they've been told not to. The same could be said for London and Kendrick, they were pretty popular on Smackdown then they become whipping boys for the Emolanders who the fans have never really cared about.

They are now in a sense doing somewhat the same thing with Kennedy and CM Punk. Now everyone knows I hate Kennedy, but there is no denying that the dude was massively over and then they move him to Raw. Now he's lost in the shuffle and treading the mid card waters. Now part of it is his fault since he lifestyle choices cost him two big payday pushes, but it's not like he couldn't overcome that.

And also with CM Punk, sure he is a title holder, but he is a title holder on the C show. Punk is over which is really good considering how many people actually watch ECW. He needs to be moved to Smackdown so he can get more exposure, yet for now he is stuck with no chance for growth as he's already faced everyone in ECW numerous times.

Fans want a reason to react to more than five guys, but the company doesn't give them any reason. Fans want to be surprised, not the sense of "Oh, John Cena is wrestling. Well we know he wins, whoopie." Watch and listen to the reaction Shelton Benjamin got when he beat Triple H his first night on Raw. That is how you make a star, but the key is to FOLLOW UP. If you don't build up on that, the fans will forget all about it and then will stop caring.
You're exactly right.

Triple H giving both Paul London & Brian Kendrick a Pedigree on RAW a few weeks ago was without a doubt the stupidest thing the WWE has done in recent memory. "Hey, here are two young guys that the fans could get behind, and we could use to increase interest in our shows...let's have our top guy make them look weak and stupid."

Stephanie McMahon is horrible for the WWE. I say that, because every time I think about what is different about the Attitude-era WWE and today's WWE, is that it follows her philosophy that the focus should be entirely on the main event. That's bullshit. It is possible to have a main event that draws by itself. I remember being very interested in the first Elimination Chamber, and in The Rock vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin. Those kind of matches could draw on their own. What is never a bad thing, though, is when you can present a PPV card that not only makes you want to see the main event, but the match before it, and the match before that, to the point where you will feel shitty if you don't order the show.

The WWE fans have been conditioned not to care about anything other than the main event guys, and it hurts the overall product. Also, the main event guys aren't even that over. Batista gets nice pops still, but even Shawn Michaels doesn't get huge pops. I mean, they're not bad, but during the Attitude-era they were Funaki-style shit.

The WWE has a few acts going that are actually over. The fans legitimately care about Balls Mahoney. I never would have believed it unless I saw it, but the fans chant along to his entrance music, and they are right into his matches. The Miz has a lot of potential, but the WWE are foolish if they don't let Balls go over Mike Mizanin at least once in their feud, with a big babyface victory. The WWE also has Jesse & Festus. I was never too big on the gimmick idea, but the fans really want to see Festus, so more power to him.

Another reason I think crowds are shit, is because a lot of them are younger these days. I mean that seriously. They aren't going to cheer and boo everything, just the stuff the WWE tells them to care about, and because they are smaller, a lot of that might actually end up intimidated by the loud sounds of the arena. You really need to the drunken teenagers and older fans to get the crowd participation going, but that of course means a less shit product, and the WWE is just not capable of that.

It would also help if when the WWE had a hot potato (like Matt Hardy in 2005), they don't drop the ball with them. Let's hope that they don't fuck around with Chris Jericho when he gets back.
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Old 11-03-2007, 12:42 AM   #31
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I don't know how anyone could think crowd participation is down in wrestling...

-THIS IS AWESOME *clap clap clapclapclap*-
-THIS IS AWESOME *clap clap clapclapclap*-
T-N-A!
T-N-A!
LET'S GO SAB-IN!
LET'S GO ANG-LE!
LET'S GO SOME-ONE!

Don't you guys WATCH TNA? Geez...






Wait, don't answer that question.
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Old 11-03-2007, 12:49 AM   #32
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What's a TNA?
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Old 11-03-2007, 05:56 PM   #33
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What's a TNA?
I see what you did there...
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Old 11-03-2007, 01:11 AM   #34
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One other thing I'd like to point out (in regards another flaw in the roster split), is the WWE's mentality. I've mentioned this before, but I think its worth mentioning again.

Smackdown is always in a perrenial state of being a 'work in progress'....or the "B" show. Whenever a superstar is getting over, they are almost ALWAYS moved to RAW. Carlitto, Kennedy, Benjamin, etc., etc. (my memory is fading, but I know there are other examples).

Ultimately - these blossoming stars on Smackdown are ultimately BURIED on RAW...in mid-card hell. Now, this is the part which is debatable IMO.

A) Do these wrestlers get buried in mid-card hell because WWE management/writers/Vince/whoever simply does NOT see them as being ready...or being able to carry the brand in that role.

B) Triple H genuinely does hold people back. And the WWE just feels comfortable in going with "a sure thing" (i.e. Cena, Triple H, Orton)....even if the "sure thing" itself is drawing poorly.

Meanwhile, Smackdown is then given "dead" main-eventers (i.e. Undertaker....excuse the pun). People who can no longer carry the company, but can be used to make the up-and-comers look good.

To make a long story short, Smackdown pretty much becomes a place where you "start out" or "end up"...and the show ultimately has no substance because of that.

RAW becomes a place where movement is extremely limited, and talent gets pissed away (either due to backstage politics, or the wrestlers simply not rising up to management's expectations).
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:37 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman
One other thing I'd like to point out (in regards another flaw in the roster split), is the WWE's mentality. I've mentioned this before, but I think its worth mentioning again.

Smackdown is always in a perrenial state of being a 'work in progress'....or the "B" show. Whenever a superstar is getting over, they are almost ALWAYS moved to RAW. Carlitto, Kennedy, Benjamin, etc., etc. (my memory is fading, but I know there are other examples).

Ultimately - these blossoming stars on Smackdown are ultimately BURIED on RAW...in mid-card hell. Now, this is the part which is debatable IMO.

A) Do these wrestlers get buried in mid-card hell because WWE management/writers/Vince/whoever simply does NOT see them as being ready...or being able to carry the brand in that role.

B) Triple H genuinely does hold people back. And the WWE just feels comfortable in going with "a sure thing" (i.e. Cena, Triple H, Orton)....even if the "sure thing" itself is drawing poorly.

Meanwhile, Smackdown is then given "dead" main-eventers (i.e. Undertaker....excuse the pun). People who can no longer carry the company, but can be used to make the up-and-comers look good.

To make a long story short, Smackdown pretty much becomes a place where you "start out" or "end up"...and the show ultimately has no substance because of that.

RAW becomes a place where movement is extremely limited, and talent gets pissed away (either due to backstage politics, or the wrestlers simply not rising up to management's expectations).
This is the exact reason I'm worried that MVP will get moved to Raw. Bring Kennedy back to SD, so that in a year or two, the World Title scene can be Kennedy, MVP, Edge, and Matt Hardy. IE- FRESH MAIN EVENT TALENT
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Old 11-03-2007, 12:16 PM   #36
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It was good in theory, I've got to say.

I agree with most of your points on the roster split, but those were issues, in my opinion, of execution.
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