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Old 02-22-2008, 01:52 PM   #1
BigDaddyCool
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OMG! LANCE STORM/UNDERTAKER HEAT: CLICK HERE FOR DETAILS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Storm
I want to debate something this week, but I’m going to have to walk gently as I do not want to offend the man that I’m going to talk about. I have a world of respect for the man I want to discuss this week and consider him one of the all time greats, but there is something that has been driving me nuts for a week or two now and I’m curious what others think, and need to speak my mind. What I want to talk about this week is the Undertakers new finishing hold, because I really don’t like it and I’m curious if I’m alone in this opinion.

For those of you who haven’t been watching SmackDown lately, the Undertaker is now using a Gogoplata Choke (a legit MMA choke) as his new finisher. The hold, for lack of a better description, is a variation of a triangle choke executed from your back where you wrap your one leg out and around your opponents shoulder and then back under his chin and then pull his head down across your shin with your hands. To execute the hold you have to use both legs and both hands while lying on your back.

I realize that MMA is getting very popular and I understand the desire to adapt that style into pro-wrestling, but I’ve always had a huge logic problem with using “choke” holds as a finish in pro-wrestling. Even back when TAZ got his Taz-mission choke over huge, I always hated it. Choking is of course illegal in pro-wrestling, and you can argue and debate the “blood choke” vs. “air choke” as much as you want, but unless there is a means by which to clearly explain the difference to your general fan base, it is just confusing to reprimand wrestlers all show about choking and then announce that someone has choked out his opponent for the win.

Even if we put that “choke” issue aside, this is a poor choice for a finish on so many levels. For starters, any move done from you back is likely a poor pro-wrestling finish. In MMA being on you back is not a bad thing, because you can’t be pinned, but in pro-wrestling that is the worst possible position to be in. For years, since pro-wrestling’s inception actually, fans have been educated to the fact that if you are on your back and someone is on top of you, you are in a bad position. Someone as dominant and powerful as the Undertaker should almost never be in this position, let alone put himself in it voluntarily. I remember watching the AWA as a fan and hearing a commentator joke that Nick Bockwinkle (AWA World Champ at the time) doesn’t even sleep on his back, and I remember thinking that was such a great line because staying off your back is the single most important thing in wrestling.

As a one-time surprise counter (provided the announcers knew what it was and could explain it) I could see this adding a new dimension to the Undertaker. When he used it to defeat Big Daddy V it made some degree of sense. Taker faced with a 500 pound opponent, found himself in a position where perhaps he could not tombstone or choke slam the 500 pounder, and after getting beat down to the ground by one of his biggest opponents yet, had to demonstrate skill rather than his more common power to get the win. This past week on SD he used the hold on Matt Striker and I found myself groaning in disapproval for the first time ever watching The Undertaker wrestle. (Actually I have groaned during other Undertaker matches but I don’t think it is fair to count matches he had with El Gigante, the man can’t work miracles).

In my opinion after nearly 2 decades of Destruction, The Dead Man should not have to leave his feet to lay waste to Matt Striker. This should be a brief confrontation where Taker is left standing tall while Striker lays at his feet, closing the segment with a great visual of one man up and one man down. Instead after choke slamming Striker, which has laid out many men to date, me included, he tied him up and rolled to his back for the submission, ending the segment with both men down on the mat, a far less visual image to close the segment; it just seemed so unnecessary, and in my opinion even brought he crowd down rather than up, after the choke slam.

It’s a poor position visually, takes a fair bit of time to hook in, and isn’t going to be easy to counter in and out of in big matches to tease false finishes. That doesn’t even take into account he fact that with Takers incredibly long legs this hold is going to be very hard to properly hook on a wide variety of people, and will likely never be as over as the Last Ride or Choke Slam. I think the old adage, “If it aint broke, don’t fix it” applies so perfectly when it comes to the Undertaker. Taker is arguably the greatest gimmick ever created as well as one of the best working big man of all time, and has two incredibly over finishes already. I don’t understand nor see the need to switch his character to that of a submission wrestler. To me The Undertaker is the Phenom, the Dead Man, or even the American Bad Ass, a guy who lays waste to those in his path, not a technically sound submission wrestler who can beat you on the ground. If you are going to play the MMA card, I see Taker as more a Chuck Liddell than a Royce Gracie.

That’s my 2-cents, I’ll be curious to hear yours.

Lance Storm
I agree, discuss.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:53 PM   #2
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I also think Undertaker should be using the Dragon sleeper.
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
I also think Undertaker should be using the Dragon sleeper.
I've always been thinking that when I saw Taker using the move. I immediately went missed "Taker Care of Business." The move favours The Undertaker a whole lot more.

I also agree with the whole "putting yourself on your back theory." Especially on a guy as big as Big Daddy V, who could theoretically shift his weight, and pin Taker to the mat. Submission guys are meant to be smart workers, and what Taker did in this match was the opposite of smart. The move is probably great for MMA, but in professional wrestling, it just makes the user a little more vulnerable to a pinning predicament.

I would mark out if someone used it and called it the "Gogogadget Choke," though.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:03 PM   #4
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An excellent point. As much as I like the look of any leg-based submissions, giving it to Taker is just awkward.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:11 PM   #5
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I was going to say, that was a way better move when he was using it.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:16 PM   #6
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WWE should bring Lance Storm in to teach their newbies. The guy understands pro-wrestling on so many different levels.
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Old 02-22-2008, 03:34 PM   #7
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Yea
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Old 02-22-2008, 03:42 PM   #8
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I agree. It looks very odd and out of place when he does it. But I would argue with Storm on backside finishing holds because some do work. Bob Backlund's chicken wing, for example, was a great hold and worked very well.
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Old 02-22-2008, 03:49 PM   #9
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Taker can use his submission manuver or the chokeslam on super heavyweights, tombstone on the heavyweights and the last ride on the light heavyweights and the cruiserweights.
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:23 PM   #10
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The only part I don't particularly agree with is the whole bit about Striker. How many times has Taker decimated people and then continued to hurt them?
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
The only part I don't particularly agree with is the whole bit about Striker. How many times has Taker decimated people and then continued to hurt them?
While it is true the Take man has been known to over kill he, it would have been better if he gave him another chokeslam, a last ride or a tombstone cause then we could still have the image of him standing tall over a broken opponent.
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Old 02-22-2008, 05:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
While it is true the Take man has been known to over kill he, it would have been better if he gave him another chokeslam, a last ride or a tombstone cause then we could still have the image of him standing tall over a broken opponent.
Yeah, true. Just not a huge deal to me.
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:23 PM   #13
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:33 PM   #14
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the submission move looked terrible on Khali at NWO
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:34 PM   #15
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i wish he'd legit choke someone out with it.
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Old 02-22-2008, 05:09 PM   #16
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Gogoplata! Go go gadget!
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:06 AM   #17
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Gogoplata! Go go gadget!
Damn it! I did not see this. You got to it first, fair and square.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:03 PM   #18
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Yeah a few years ago 'Taker busted out some kind of triangle choke thingy to take down the Big Show a few times. Then Cole was all like "OMGZ LOOK AT HOW CUL TAKR IS HE MAYDE HIM TAP OUT HE IZ AWSUM."

I agree with Storm, it doesn't make sense for Taker to be using this move unless his typical finishers aren't available to him.

Additionally, I enjoy reading Storm far more than I ever enjoyed watching him.
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthTedious View Post
Yeah a few years ago 'Taker busted out some kind of triangle choke thingy to take down the Big Show a few times. Then Cole was all like "OMGZ LOOK AT HOW CUL TAKR IS HE MAYDE HIM TAP OUT HE IZ AWSUM."

I agree with Storm, it doesn't make sense for Taker to be using this move unless his typical finishers aren't available to him.

Additionally, I enjoy reading Storm far more than I ever enjoyed watching him.
I'm sure that when Taker started using the move again recently, Michael Cole acted like he had never seen it before. He'd called Taker's triangle choke before, but this time he was like "I don't know what that would be called!"

If The Undertaker needs a new finisher, I think his old Dragon Sleeper would have been great.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:11 PM   #20
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Taker isn't exactly the powerhouse he used to be, though. He's dropped a lot of weight and muscle and is much more agile but weaker, which means he needs other ways to win matches.
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Old 02-22-2008, 11:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Taker isn't exactly the powerhouse he used to be, though. He's dropped a lot of weight and muscle and is much more agile but weaker, which means he needs other ways to win matches.
Taker was never that much of a power house to be honest.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:23 PM   #22
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Not to mention, Taker is a MMA badass.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:23 PM   #23
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Old 02-23-2008, 12:34 AM   #24
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I agree with Lance, its a horrible looking maneuver to boot.
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Old 02-23-2008, 12:41 AM   #25
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Do you mean physically or just his ring style?
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Old 02-23-2008, 07:25 AM   #26
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You know what? If they really wanna bust out a classic and give the crowd a wow at the same time, why not just dust off the ol' Judgement Slam instead of trying to change Taker's image?
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Old 02-23-2008, 11:57 AM   #27
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You know what? If they really wanna bust out a classic and give the crowd a wow at the same time, why not just dust off the ol' Judgement Slam instead of trying to change Taker's image?
Does it matter at this point, with the Undertaker? He's been a brawler, a MMA, a monster, and so on already.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:00 PM   #28
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Does it matter at this point, with the Undertaker? He's been a brawler, a MMA, a monster, and so on already.
But has he ever been a masked mexican luchador?

No!

Thats EXACTLY what we want to see. El Undertako, the high flying masked monster.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:15 AM   #29
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But has he ever been a masked mexican luchador?

No!

Thats EXACTLY what we want to see. El Undertako, the high flying masked monster.
Cole: He's taking of his hat and...Dancing around it? What the FUCK?
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Old 02-24-2008, 02:37 PM   #30
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Cole: He's taking of his hat and...Dancing around it? Shades of the late, great Eddie Guerrero!
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Old 02-23-2008, 03:51 PM   #31
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Yes.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:22 PM   #32
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:01 PM   #33
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Storm makes a good point. I thought it was a weird move period (didn't know it was a real MMA move, especially since it looked more like Taker was trying to apply a crossface with his shin rather than choke Vis). But yeah, use it as an option, not as something to rely on.
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:16 PM   #34
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I gotta be honest. It doesn't matter if it's a real MMA move. That's kind of secondary to everything else.

After all, some of the best techniques from real martial arts are used as basic moves. They're just not sharp or flashy enough, and what works in wrestling is what looks good enough. You don't go for a stunner or a chokeslam in a real fight. You try and knock the fucker out, or go for joint manipulation, or even just restraint. MMA, similarly, the value of the move is its effectiveness. So if it looks bad, or awkward, it's not a good move in wrestling. The number of people on here who insisted Taker botched the move should be enough indication.
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