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Old 07-17-2008, 08:26 AM   #1
Sebastian
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The biggest problem with the WWE is that fans cant accept change.
It has come to my attention that the biggest problem in the WWE, just might not be of it's own doing.

No.

It appears to me that the biggest problem with the WWE lies in the fans mentality. What mentality is that? The mentality to refuse to accept change.

Lets look at some things the WWE is criticized over. Now, most recently, there has been a bunch of criticism over the WWE championship belt and the new Divas title. People have been complaining ever since their inception about how the belts look.

Me? I dont see the problem. You see, the belts look fine. They are just different. They are a change, an evolution (no pun intended) of the title belt. I think the so called "spinner belt" actually looks way better then the title before it and WAY better than the world title. Why? Because I have accepted the change for the evolution that it brings.

The spinner belt allows a wrestler to cutomize his title for himself and make it something interesting and exciting and add their own touch to it.

Now, the Divas title is getting a lot of angry about it. I dont see the problem with it either, its an evolution. Its not suppose to look like a man's title, it's a title for women! But for some reason, people criticize very angry at both of these titles.

Also, for ages now, people have been complaining about the rising stars of the NEW generation of the WWE, aka, Cena, Batista, Orton etc. I dont see the problem here. All three are exceptionally great wrestlers and characters and frankly, I dont think the problem is them. The problem seems to be that they are new guys and thus automatically, they are "bad". It seems people are not happy seeing them on top...but lets go back in time now and remember.

Lets remember WCW. As we all know, WWE took WCW out of business. Why? WCW was putting out a crappy product that for the most part sucked. Why did it suck? One of the big reasons was that WCW did not change! WCW heads did not accept change and did not let new young stars of the NEW generation take over and run "with the ball".

No, instead WCW focused their efforts on Hogan, Nash and other established stars of the past. What happened? The product was terrible and WCW was CRUSHED by the WWE and taken out of business forever. So it seems to me that putting the attention on a younger new generation is a smarter idea then getting stuck on the old ones.

So I think that people are needlessly complaining about what really is just plain old change. Natural progression. Evolution.

I think a lot of fans need to chill and look at the show with a different eye. Instead of seeing something new and going "OH NO! THIS SUCKS! UGH". People should look at it and analyze it honestly and see it for the CHANGE and evolution that it REALLY is.

Maybe then, we all wouldn't be seeing so many "problems" with the product?

What do u think?
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:40 AM   #2
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I don't think anyone has an issue with the development of new stars. Rather an issue with wrestlers when they are rushed into main event spots.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:11 AM   #3
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I agree with the fact that the majority of the IWC need to shut the fuck up and realize that they could not do a better job than that is being currently done.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:15 AM   #4
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If the fans couldn't accept change, they wouldn't have ever accepted Cena, Batista, Orton, etc.

The spinner belt is crap. Sorry. That has less to do with new ideas and not wanting to see wigger crap on TV.

But then, change for the sake of being different, change with no other purpose, is terrible in both concept and execution, which seems to be what you're endorsing appreciation of.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:16 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by SammyG View Post
I agree with the fact that the majority of the IWC need to shut the fuck up and realize that they could not do a better job than that is being currently done.
Who are you on about? I haven't seen anyone criticizing WWE lately.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:18 AM   #6
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It seems Sebastien has a problem accepting opinions that are different to his own.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:19 AM   #7
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Who are you on about? I haven't seen anyone criticizing WWE lately.
In the last week, I've only read like ten threads in the wrestling forum, and I could find examples of people complaining or criticizing. Not hard to find.
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Old 07-17-2008, 09:21 AM   #8
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Well there will always be somethings to complain about. The belts we complain about are not a major issue, but the divas belt for example was horrible. I don't mind change aslong as its good.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:20 AM   #9
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Quote:
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If the fans couldn't accept change, they wouldn't have ever accepted Cena, Batista, Orton, etc.
If the fans couldn't accept change, there would have been no Attitude Era.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:39 AM   #10
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We can accept change. But change for the sake of change isn't necessarily an improvement. It needs to be GOOD change for us to get behind it.

For example, other than the retarded finish to RAW, the last few Monday nights have been a vast improvement over the last... well, several years. The "anything can happen" element makes RAW so much more watchable than it has been in a long time. A new face in the main event scene, a renewed interest in the tag division, a feud between two of the most talented wrestlers of this generation that's involving some of the best workers of the next one... There are a lot of things that have changed that we like.

HOWEVER, the spinner belt was a terrible effort to "urbanize" the most prestigious title in the business. It worked when Cena first brought it out, because it played to his personality. On anyone else, it just looks silly. And the Divas Title looks like it was designed with SVR's Create-A-Belt mode.

And the reason there was a backlash against Cena, Batista, and Orton wasn't because they were new. It was because they were booked terribly.

Cena became a top-tier star because he was edgy, had mic skills, and could work a match. As soon as they turned him face, he dropped his moveset to a number countable on one hand and his promos consist mainly of poop jokes. This alliance with Cryme Tyme seems to be helping his image a little bit, but "JBL is Poopy" was a pretty impressive step back. There were similar missteps made with Orton and Batista.

It is possible for wrestling fans to embrace change. Kofi Kingston's surprise IC win is an example of a good change. It freed up Jericho to feud with Michaels in the main-event tier and it helped elevate Kofi to a legitimate threat in the fans' eyes. Cody Rhodes' heel turn (and subsequent alliance with JBL) seems to be helping bring out his personality. Hell, they're even using Jamie Bah-Gawd Noble in a somewhat prominent role. Granted, he's jobbing, but the more TV time he gets, the bigger his reactions.

So, all in all, I think you've got a good grasp on the symptoms of why wrestling fans are unhappy, but you're WAY off the mark on your diagnosis of the disease. We like change. But we only like GOOD change.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:11 AM   #11
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Fans can accept change, it's seen in current big stars, they just won't accept shitty change. Again, ratings point to this fact. If the mainstream fans don't enjoy it they're not changing for the better. They've recently began to do a bit better (the slight ratings spike reflects that) but they've got a long way to go. I've personally been enjoying WWE more now. Haven't given a shit in a long while, was watching MAYBE 15 minutes and now I watch up to an hour of RAW.

This is a change I and other fans are enjoying. But, again, they've got a ways to go.
Last edited by Xero; 07-17-2008 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whomever started this thread
Now, the Divas title is getting a lot of angry about it. I dont see the problem with it either, its an evolution. Its not suppose to look like a man's title, it's a title for women! But for some reason, people criticize very angry at both of these titles.
My problem with the Diva's title is there isn't enough room to have two women's titles. While there's some pretty good wrestling talent (Mickie James, Victoria, McCool, Nattie, Beth Phoenix, Melina) and some great eye candy (Mickie James, Maryse, Kelly Kelly, Jillian, Melina) there still isn't enough time to spend on a second women's title.
WWE should focus on wrestling, and upping the value of the titles they have now. A lot of people see the WHC as a sub-par title since Punk won it, the IC title is past its prime when it should still be a major thing, the chase for the women's title is stale, the tag team scene isn't that hot.... With all the work that can be done on these titles is there really room for a title like this?
But no, this Lisa Frank title is going to happen, no matter how goddamn stupid it is.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:44 AM   #13
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There is a reason not to accept something that is changing from good to garbage.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:53 AM   #14
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There is a reason not to accept something that is changing from good to garbage.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:55 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedious View Post
If the fans couldn't accept change, there would have been no Attitude Era.
Yeah, but that was a decade ago, and people and fans change. Some people cleave to the Attitude Era like it was the beginning, middle, and end of wrestling. A lot of people seem to, actually...
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:58 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian
Me? I dont see the problem. You see, the belts look fine. They are just different. They are a change, an evolution (no pun intended) of the title belt. I think the so called "spinner belt" actually looks way better then the title before it and WAY better than the world title. Why? Because I have accepted the change for the evolution that it brings.

The spinner belt allows a wrestler to cutomize his title for himself and make it something interesting and exciting and add their own touch to it.














What's wrong with this thread?
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:08 PM   #17
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lol. I almost prefer the spinner belt to the ROH title.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:11 PM   #18
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Seriously, still can NOT understand why people are still talking about how bad the new Diva's title looks. It's a title that will be fought for by the SmackDown divas... make it look as pink and dolled up as is humanly fucking possible.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:14 PM   #19
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What's wrong with this thread?
The presence of Crystal Meth Punk?
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Seriously, still can NOT understand why people are still talking about how bad the new Diva's title looks. It's a title that will be fought for by the SmackDown divas... make it look as pink and dolled up as is humanly fucking possible.
It's not that it looks like the Lisa Frank title, it's the fact that it's another title. There are not enough female wrestlers to have two women's titles. SmackDown does not need this Lisa Frank title.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Seriously, still can NOT understand why people are still talking about how bad the new Diva's title looks. It's a title that will be fought for by the SmackDown divas... make it look as pink and dolled up as is humanly fucking possible.
There's a new Divas title?
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:17 PM   #22
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It's not that it looks like the Lisa Frank title, it's the fact that it's another title. There are not enough female wrestlers to have two women's titles. SmackDown does not need this Lisa Frank title.
I have heard people talk about how terrible it looks much MUCH more than how unnecessary another title is.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:40 PM   #23
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Actually, I can't think of anything less true. The IWC as a whole craves change, so do the fans. It's when things become repeated that the real bitching begins. Have you noticed that since Cena lost the title a LOT less people bitch about him? It's because it's not the same "Oh noz! Cena is gonna lose! Wait, no, he overcame the odds! CHAIN GANG!" And now that WWE is beginning to mix things up a bit, you have a lot of people gushing over them on how much improvement they've made. The thing that fans dislike is the feeling that they're being directed to do something. Steve Austin was supposed to be a nasty heel, but the fans decided they liked him...and...presto. Every mark in the world got to cling to him and really believed (and possibly justifiably so) that they made him.

John Cena never losing, DX-Lite still being portrayed as "rebels", Batista's 10,000 title shots, every other person on TV holding a title belt...these are all things that might lead to some good T-Shirt sales, but ultimately drive a wedge between the fan and the product since many fans feel it's being too marketed and is less about genuine desire and taste. That's what gets bitched about. The Spinner belt is just another example of something that was needlessly introduced so that they could sell some toys to the kiddies. Again, great for merch sales, bad for fan's appreciation.

Have an older guy go over a young up and comer and you have a lot of fans screaming for blood because the older guy didn't need the win and the younger guy needed to rub. It's not an issue of change, it's an issue of force feeding opinions to the fans.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:47 PM   #24
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You guys said it all, and I will be surprised if Sebastian returns to rebut himself.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:52 PM   #25
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I'm sure his response will be NEW and INNOVATIVE, much like WWE apparently is.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:54 PM   #26
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The IWC craves change. Is that why they jump off a new bandwagon everycoupel of weeks?
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:38 PM   #27
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If the fans couldn't accept change, they wouldn't have ever accepted Cena, Batista, Orton, etc.

The spinner belt is crap. Sorry. That has less to do with new ideas and not wanting to see wigger crap on TV.

But then, change for the sake of being different, change with no other purpose, is terrible in both concept and execution, which seems to be what you're endorsing appreciation of.
Incorrect!

Are the fans really accepting Cena, Batista and Orton? Doesn't seem so to me. There is a lot of complaining and unjustified comments made about all three men, Cena and Batista especially. People complain frequently about how Batista shouldnt be getting another title shot when, lets face it, the man is one of this generation's greatest young stars. Batista is what HHH was to late 90's.

Cena is the face of the company and many say he doesnt deserve it, but he paid his dues and he is one of the best total packages in the WORLD. John Cena is to 2000-2010 what Hogan was to 1980-1995 and what Rock/Austin was to late 90's. He is the "IT".

Orton too gets a lot of complaints. Yes, his face run was poor but he is an AMAZING heel and gets way too much flack and not enough praise.

Everyone likes to say "Why is the WWE trying to create a new Rock/Austin? These guys arent Rock/Austin, they suck!". This is simply not true and is false logic because they don't suck, they are just different. It is a new time and time for younger stars.

As far as "Wigger Crap", lets come face to face with reality. WWE is a multi billion dollar company who entertains people. In order to do this, they need to stay on top of the pack and on top of trends. Lets face it, Hip Hop culture is currently where it's at and that is what John Cena represents. He connects to this segment of the population so it works. Its just like Hogan was "All American" in the 80's.

I am not endorsing change for the sake of change, I am endorsing positive change but people seem to think that all change is change for the sake of change.

Quote:
It seems Sebastien has a problem accepting opinions that are different to his own.
You're wrong, I have not said anyones opinion is wrong.

Quote:
If the fans couldn't accept change, there would have been no Attitude Era.
EXACTLY!

And that is why ratings are in the gutters right now compared to the Attitude era. Back then, people embraced culture and change and thats why the product got so popular. But now people are fussy and reluctant to accept a rising new generation of stars!

Quote:
For example, other than the retarded finish to RAW, the last few Monday nights have been a vast improvement over the last... well, several years. The "anything can happen" element makes RAW so much more watchable than it has been in a long time. A new face in the main event scene, a renewed interest in the tag division, a feud between two of the most talented wrestlers of this generation that's involving some of the best workers of the next one... There are a lot of things that have changed that we like.
Well maybe I am not reading deep enough because I dont see too many people writing about some of the recent changes as being good. Instead of saying how good WWE is booking RAW, people complain that Batista laid out CM Punk...which is GOOD BOOKING 101 (No, not because I have anything against Punk, but because it creates REAL heat between the stars).

Quote:
My problem with the Diva's title is there isn't enough room to have two women's titles.
Not true, there are a lot of Divas in the WWE and they are spread over TWO brands. It makes no sense to have cool divas like Cherry, Victoria and Nagalia on Smackdown and not have a title for them to fight over. It is a much needed change that has been needed for a long time.

Quote:
There is a reason not to accept something that is changing from good to garbage.
What exactly is "garbage" about it? Young new superstars getting a shot at the big time? An exciting new title and expansion of women's wrestling (which is gaining popularity in America because even TNA managed to get a rating boost from women) and more rough storylines that are more gritty? I dont see it, sorry!

Quote:
What's wrong with this thread?
Nothing, except maybe that indy title Punk is holding is nowhere near being on par with the rest of them.

I think the mistake that WWE did with Cena's title was when HHH won it and kept it looking the same. The point of the title was that a champ can customize it, like when Edge won it after Cena. HHH should have replaced the center with his skull logo. This, I admit is a place where WWE errored!

Lets come to terms with reality guys. Things are constantly changing and just because they are, it doesnt mean its bad. It seems to be that people's instinctive reaction is to be unhappy with change and then try to justify it and be happy later rather then just take it in and see where it goes as it goes.

Of course, we are all happy to see Punk with the big belt, but even that, I see some criticism over his first feud with Batista.

Come on, the man is feuding with the top dog in the yard, it wouldnt make sense to have him beat up on Batista. It makes sense for Punk to be an underdog here...but thats a whole thread on its own. (This feud is qyite a dileema to book. Do you WEAKEN Batista by giving him a loss or do you ruin your young champ's first reign?)

Also I dont see why people are so angry if a big face goes on a winning streak like Cena did. It is called the mechanics of the wrestling business. You want a guy to suceed, you make him look good and a winning streak helps with that. And Cena's winning streak was actually good and not a bunch of jobber squashings like Goldberg or Kozlov is doing now.
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:43 PM   #28
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The presence of Crystal Meth Punk?
*ding*
*ding*

KK gets a cookie.

The other accepted answer would be Bret Hart being shown 4th instead of first.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:13 PM   #29
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Opinions are like assholes.

So, with that said, let those who complain to continue to do so and those who enjoy the product to continue to do.

Noone's opinion will change in this thread. Everyone has their preference and you will not please everyone.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:31 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian View Post
Incorrect!

Are the fans really accepting Cena, Batista and Orton? Doesn't seem so to me. There is a lot of complaining and unjustified comments made about all three men, Cena and Batista especially. People complain frequently about how Batista shouldnt be getting another title shot when, lets face it, the man is one of this generation's greatest young stars. Batista is what HHH was to late 90's.
People were perfectly willing to accept all three and still are. However you speak about change and Batista constantly getting title shots for over a year now is hardly change within the WWE is it? If anything it's the exact same thing over and over again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian View Post
Cena is the face of the company and many say he doesnt deserve it, but he paid his dues and he is one of the best total packages in the WORLD. John Cena is to 2000-2010 what Hogan was to 1980-1995 and what Rock/Austin was to late 90's. He is the "IT".
Again it's not that people don't feel Cena doesn't deserve it. It's the fact that he has been shoved down our throats as a superman that has annoyed everyone and causes people to tune out. When he won the title the first time it was the same exact thing every month. Again there was no change there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian View Post
Everyone likes to say "Why is the WWE trying to create a new Rock/Austin? These guys arent Rock/Austin, they suck!". This is simply not true and is false logic because they don't suck, they are just different. It is a new time and time for younger stars.
I have never heard anyone around here saying that. I've seen people saying "That guy looks like he could be the next Austin" when referring to people like Kennedy or mentioning the Rock when referring to people like MVP but I have never seen anyone complain about them trying to create a new Rock/Austin. Nor have i seen people complain about the stars not being Rock/Austin.

And yes we know it is a time for younger stars and if anything that is what a lot of the fans want to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian View Post
Well maybe I am not reading deep enough because I dont see too many people writing about some of the recent changes as being good. Instead of saying how good WWE is booking RAW, people complain that Batista laid out CM Punk...which is GOOD BOOKING 101 (No, not because I have anything against Punk, but because it creates REAL heat between the stars).
Why would real heat between the stars be a good thing? Surely you'd want what you consider to be your top two stars to be on at least decent terms with each other.

Also why is squashing the champion of the show in a minute good booking 101? Good booking to me would be for one of them to win by a narrow margin after a decent contest. Squashing the champion makes them look weak and makes it look like the company doesn't care too much about them.

I understand it was a dark match and was only seen by the people in the arena so we shouldn't really take too much from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian View Post
Also I dont see why people are so angry if a big face goes on a winning streak like Cena did. It is called the mechanics of the wrestling business. You want a guy to suceed, you make him look good and a winning streak helps with that. And Cena's winning streak was actually good and not a bunch of jobber squashings like Goldberg or Kozlov is doing now.
It wasn't about the winning streak he had. It was more how the winning streak was done. You mention how it was good as opposed to Goldbergs, yet many people will tell you that Goldbergs streak was probably one of the best ways to do that sort of angle.

Yes you want your champion to look good but you need to balance it between looking good and taking the piss. The fact that Cena constantly overcame the odds wasn't good booking it was just their way of forcing him down our throats. After a short while it became predictable and people wanted it to change.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:33 PM   #31
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What's wrong with this thread?
No Kevin Nash in a post full of champions.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:40 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian View Post
Incorrect!

Are the fans really accepting Cena, Batista and Orton? Doesn't seem so to me. There is a lot of complaining and unjustified comments made about all three men, Cena and Batista especially.

Which counters your argument. They were supported. There was a Cena bandwagon, an Orton bandwagon, and a Batista bandwagon. The Batswagon was splintery and had a bad wheel, but it was there.

You know when these guys started losing support?

When "Spoiler: Cena Wins!" Became a joke.

When "If Orton Rest Holds, we Riot" became a joke.

When Barista earned a title shot every fucking week.

The fans, the IWC were behind the new guys. They were behind the "change." And then WWE made these guys stale and boring and killed the interest. The common thread here is that the IWC supports a shitload of people. Edge, Marella, that cokehead who recently won a title belt...

So...Ummm...Yeah.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:41 PM   #33
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No Val Venis in a post full of champions.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:50 PM   #34
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I was just joking before, but this thread is giving me serious flashbacks of Vermaat now.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:51 PM   #35
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I was just joking before, but this thread is giving me serious flashbacks of Vermaat now.
Well we'll know for sure if he starts wanting Mark Henry to go over everyone because Mark Henry is new and innovative.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:52 PM   #36
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He did refer to Batista as "young"...
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:54 PM   #37
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The one said all that needed to be said.
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Old 07-17-2008, 03:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian View Post
Me? I dont see the problem. You see, the belts look fine. They are just different. They are a change, an evolution (no pun intended) of the title belt. I think the so called "spinner belt" actually looks way better then the title before it and WAY better than the world title. Why? Because I have accepted the change for the evolution that it brings.

The spinner belt allows a wrestler to cutomize his title for himself and make it something interesting and exciting and add their own touch to it.

Now, the Divas title is getting a lot of angry about it. I dont see the problem with it either, its an evolution. Its not suppose to look like a man's title, it's a title for women! But for some reason, people criticize very angry at both of these titles.
For one, I can give a damn about the Divas Title.

Your thoughts on the Spinner Belt looking better than the regular title...
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:12 PM   #39
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Just because something is "new" does not neccesarily dictate that it is good. Just like "retro" doesn't define something of greatness today. It can describe something that was great before, maybe in the past, but not neccesarily today. The only thing that neccesitates, dictates or suggests good wrestling television is GOOD WRESTLING TELEVISION.

John Cena as the superman champion beating everyone and their mother isn't good wrestling TV. Triple H, Cena and Orton / Batista, Undertaker and Edge cutting the same fucking promos against each other and having the same matches against each other month after month is NOT good wrestling TV. Having JBL try to kill John Cena with a car and then ending it in a lame cliffhanger is not good wrestling TV. Is any of this getting through?

When the nWo showed up in lame ass 1996 WCW and started wreaking havoc, it was DIFFERENT and people accepted it. Not simply because it was different, as your logic would suggest, but because it was GOOD. It was interesting. It was intriguing. It was fresh and bold. These are known as adjectives, i.e. "describing words." They accurately describe the nWo angle. "New" is also a word that describes the nWo angle, but it's not the key word that MADE the angle good wrestling TV.

Now, CM Punk winning the World Title? Good TV. Chris Jericho and HBK feud? Good TV.

And NOT because they are "new." Because they are GOOD.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:14 PM   #40
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For the mathletes in the audience, let me break it down in an equation:

New + Good = Good

New + Bad = Bad

Take out the word "new," Sebastian, and study the formulas before you, as they will teach you much.
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