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Old 02-22-2009, 05:02 PM   #1
Nark Order
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When Michaels retires...
Will he be known or pushed by the WWE as the greatest ever? It seems like he's being groomed for such a spot in history like Flair was.

More importantly, do you think he is the greatest or one of the greatest ever?

Narcissus spite tour of 2020. I have kids.
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:05 PM   #2
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Michaels is one of the greatest ever, but not the greatest.
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:06 PM   #3
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Who would you say is the greatest, Mr Fly?
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:06 PM   #4
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This thread has already been done before, it was about 2 months ago...

All of us here on TPWW came to the conclusion that Michaels will go down as the greatest ENTERTAINER of All Time, not the greatest Wrestler of all time.
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
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Who would you say is the greatest, Mr Fly?
If I say, it will spark a massive flame war. So I'll go with my number 2 guy: Ultimo Dragon.
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:11 PM   #6
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Gotcha
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky Fly View Post
If I say, it will spark a massive flame war.
Answer me this. Is he a fellow Canadian?
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:25 PM   #8
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SCOTT HALL THE GREATEST ALL THE WAY!!! .............but ya greatest ENTERTAINER of all time will be SHAWN MICHEALS
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:31 PM   #9
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Answer me this. Is he a fellow Canadian?
He is loved the world over.
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:33 PM   #10
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He is loved the world over.
Hogan?
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:54 PM   #11
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Chris Benoit?
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:16 PM   #12
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If Shawn Michaels was officially known as 'The Greatest of All Time' I could happily live with it.
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:27 PM   #13
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Chris Benoit?
Who the hell is that guy?
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
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If Shawn Michaels was officially known as 'The Greatest of All Time' I could happily live with it.
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:24 PM   #15
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Yes & Yes
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:34 PM   #16
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Who the hell is that guy?
Some name I just made up out of thin air.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:35 AM   #17
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He is among the all time greats. I don't know that he is number one, but he is definitely up there.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:57 AM   #18
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I would say both Keiji Muto and the Destroyer edge out michaels. Destroyer was ridiculously smart when it came to psycology, and could carry a broom stick to an epic match.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Chris Benoit?

Isn't he that creppy guy who HANGS around places heading butting people?
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:48 AM   #20
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maybe it is... I dunno.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:37 PM   #21
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Isn't he that creppy guy who HANGS around places heading butting people?
I saw him eating crossface chicken wings and tap water the other day.
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Old 02-23-2009, 04:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Will he be known or pushed by the WWE as the greatest ever? It seems like he's being groomed for such a spot in history like Flair was.

More importantly, do you think he is the greatest or one of the greatest ever?

I think there's a chance that the WWE will try and position as HBK being "the greatest" one day (similar to Flair).

In my personal opinion - HBK was one of the greatest.....but not THE greatest. There are a few wrestlers that were better overall wrestlers than HBK (i.e. Kurt Angle, Dynamite Kid), and there were even MORE wrestlers that achieved more as sports-entertainers (i.e. Hogan, Austin, Rock, Bret Hart, Goldberg).
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:14 PM   #23
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How did Goldberg achieve more than Shawn Michaels as a sports entertainer? HBK has won pretty much every title in the WWE, most of which he won multiple times. Goldberg had what, 2 total World Title runs, a couple of US Title runs and 1 tag title run? I mean, he had the streak, but his time in wrestling has been minimal at best. I'm not tryin to be a dick or anything, I agree that Shawn hasn't accomplished as much as Austin, Rock, Bret, or Hogan, but he's well past Goldberg in accomplishments.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:24 AM   #24
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I really am not a fan of this whole Wrestler Vs Entertainer crap

Fact is, Shawn can ‘Rassle’ and it’s been proven on many occasions in the past, but he did more than that, and got over with it.

Shawn’s biggest problem was, imo his size and the fact that, at the time of his first title run, he was more like Cena, the adult male fans turned on him, so he never really got to run with the ball more often, that is what would hold him back from being the greatest of all time.

To be the greatest of all time, what do you actually need? For me, I feel it’s simple.

You have to be over, aka, make money, aka, be a draw.

Like it or not, Hogan was/is still a massive draw, I don’t think that WWE right now has anyone that is considered a draw, because the product itself is a draw. Yes the WWF product was a draw, but Hogan was clearly the main attraction, when they tried to re-create new stars in the form of Hellwig, they always went back to Hogan. Look what happened when he left for WCW, business tanked for like 5 years.

So, for me, aside from all his political bullshit he is for me the greatest ever.

Is shawn fucking amazing? Yes, or course he is, and is up there as one of the greatest of all time, the only thing he didn’t do well is draw.

On another subject, I would like to see him get another run with the title before his retirement
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:27 AM   #25
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If he gets a good match out of Koslov, then yes he is.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:14 AM   #26
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MIchaels will be a great, but not THE greatest. I think I'd go with Dave Youell's summation, but I'll plug in SCSA for my monnnnayyyy!!!!
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:51 PM   #27
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So, based on how long Michaels has been in the biz for, does that make him a better entertainer than the Rock? I love both, and people can argue about their skills on the mat being similar standard too, but for m, Rock over his 5+ years at the top gave me more of a laugh and smile and entertaining moments than Michaels did.

Still, one of my outstanding rememberances was the Iron Man match. For me, as I said it was "THE Iron man match", so no need for dates. But as soon as you saw the man come down the zipline, it was etched in my mind.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
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How did Goldberg achieve more than Shawn Michaels as a sports entertainer? HBK has won pretty much every title in the WWE, most of which he won multiple times. Goldberg had what, 2 total World Title runs, a couple of US Title runs and 1 tag title run? I mean, he had the streak, but his time in wrestling has been minimal at best. I'm not tryin to be a dick or anything, I agree that Shawn hasn't accomplished as much as Austin, Rock, Bret, or Hogan, but he's well past Goldberg in accomplishments.
Goldberg was pretty much known by anyone during his day. I even owned Goldberg merchandsie, and I never even watched WCW. No one besides wrestling fans have a clue who Shawn Michaels is, and even fewer give a crap.

I'm not saying that to shit over Michaels. The man is a fantastic worker, and will go down as one of the greatest ever. I just cannot see justification to put him in the same breath as guys like Stone Cold Steve Austin, though. Men that actually sucked people into the business, and made a lot of money for a lot of people.

HBK may be the greatest non-draw in the history of wrestling, and he probably deserves a place on the Top Ten Greatest of All-Time, and the WWE will probably try and push him as the GOAT when he does retire, but he just didn't excel at anything enough to really cement himself as the best.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:07 PM   #29
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I want to stab noid so bad right now.

Don't you understand that HBM is the same kind of legend Flair is? Non-wrestling fans may only be vaguley aware of him, but if you like wrestling, you know HBK is one of the greatest. You are such a fucking faggot retard. Get out of here with that shit.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:30 PM   #30
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I want to stab noid so bad right now.

Don't you understand that HBM is the same kind of legend Flair is? Non-wrestling fans may only be vaguley aware of him, but if you like wrestling, you know HBK is one of the greatest. You are such a fucking faggot retard. Get out of here with that shit.
You're a loser.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:45 PM   #31
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More people know who Shawn Michaels is than you're giving him credit for. Especially when compariing him to Goldberg. Sure, Goldberg was a big hit for a few years in WCW. So was Shawn Michaels.
Tons of people under the age of 40, who aren't wrestling fans, are familiar with Shawn Michaels. I know this for a fact.

Also, I'm not even taking into account the fact that he was in DX. That's huge too.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:48 PM   #32
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Maybe things are different where you're from. Australia right? I can't testify for your region. I just know mine, and in America Shawn Michaels is a part of the pop culture consciousness. Especially for young people. He may only have a minor role in the fabric of pop culture, but it's still a decent role nonetheless. That's more than 99% of wrestlers can say.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:06 PM   #33
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Noid, shut the fuck up you delusional smark bitch.

Are you seriously saying that Shawn Michaels is a complete unknown? Where the hell have you been? Is he on the same level of pop culture as Hogan or Austin, but nobody is but those two and The Rock. Just because he isn't one of the biggest names in the world doesn't mean a good fucking chunk of people know who he is. Shawn Michaels has cemented his place in pop culture and wrestling history with his body of work since returning in 2002.

Let me guess, CM Punk or Raven is more known around the world?
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:27 PM   #34
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Noid, shut the fuck up you delusional smark bitch.

Are you seriously saying that Shawn Michaels is a complete unknown? Where the hell have you been? Is he on the same level of pop culture as Hogan or Austin, but nobody is but those two and The Rock. Just because he isn't one of the biggest names in the world doesn't mean a good fucking chunk of people know who he is. Shawn Michaels has cemented his place in pop culture and wrestling history with his body of work since returning in 2002.

Let me guess, CM Punk or Raven is more known around the world?
*Sigh* No, I didn't say that Shawn Michaels was a complete unknown. I am saying that he has never been the draw that is needed to go down as the greatest of all-time, though. Pretty much the same as Dave Youell.

John Cena, Batista, The Undertaker, Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan are all wrestlers I hear mentioned from time-to-time in every day life. Never once have I heard anyone talk about Shawn Michaels. Sorry, that's just the way it has been. Maybe he has been a huge draw, and statistics just lied to me. In that case, I apologise for hurting your feelings.

Truthfully, I have heard Scotty 2 Hotty mentioned more times in everday conversation than Shawn Michaels (twice -- both in association with "The Worm"). I'm not saying that Scotty 2 Hotty is a bigger star, or a better wrestler, but I'm just pointing out how little HBK has touched the mainstream consciousness. Over here, at least.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:35 PM   #35
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More people know who Shawn Michaels is than you're giving him credit for. Especially when compariing him to Goldberg. Sure, Goldberg was a big hit for a few years in WCW. So was Shawn Michaels.
Tons of people under the age of 40, who aren't wrestling fans, are familiar with Shawn Michaels. I know this for a fact.

Also, I'm not even taking into account the fact that he was in DX. That's huge too.
I'll give you that I have heard DX mentioned outside of wrestling. I've heard a few people play their theme song, and I've seen a few people bust out crotch chops. I cannot attest to the same thing you are saying, though. Goldberg was a draw. HBK only really got fans because they were already watching.

I'm not saying that Goldberg is overall greater than Shawn Michaels. Not at all. I'm just saying, I believe Heyman is right in making a case that purely from one perspective, Goldberg has been more successful than HBK. When you look at their entire careers, though, Goldberg becomes more exposed as "flash in the pan," and Michaels has a lot of classics to his name.

My opinion: Shawn Michaels should be considered an "Icon." Much the same as Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Ric Flair, Andre the Giant, The Undertaker and Lou Thesz -- but I'd put him closer towards the back of that class than the front.
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:07 AM   #36
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Noid actually made sense in a few sentences.
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:28 AM   #37
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Was he ever really a draw?

I think he's pretty damn close to being the greatest, but I don't know if he put butts in the seats.
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:54 AM   #38
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Was he ever really a draw?

I think he's pretty damn close to being the greatest, but I don't know if he put butts in the seats.
I believe the period he was meant to be carrying the company was one of the lowest rated ever. The onus for this also falls on guys like Diesel and Bret Hart, though. But I wouldn't make a case for either of them to be the undisputed greatest, either.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:22 AM   #39
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Comparing Shawn Michaels to Goldberg would be like comparing ice cream to horse manure.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:22 AM   #40
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