Today's Heels

**Maluco** · 03-11-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD

Taz and RVD in Old ECW: Champions. Not only did they have it a long time, they happily defended their titles to whoever stepped up. One angle saw Taz invited Masato Tanaka all the way from Japan to face him. And RVD couldn't wait to take on Jerry Lynn and Sabu - who were both legit challengers to the ECW TV Title.

What I'm getting at is WWE, somewhere along the way, let story override title prestige. They're not won over but stolen, and lusted upon by guys who the story points out doesn't deserve the title. WWE is telling us the titles mean shit more than am employee of the month prop. So if you're a heel and win, you stole it. If you're a face and you win, who cares, you beat a coward who didn't deserve it anyway.

This goes to a bigger argument that WWE has very little credible bad guys who become weak looking champions. This may help story in the 'people like seeing bad guys get it' sense, but it hurts the title in the end.

A quote from Kalyx in another thread, the 'quantity vs quality' thread. I think this quote deserves a topic of it's own because I feel like it is a vital issue in the story lines of today.

I could not really verbalise what was bothering me about storylines today until I saw this quote, and the reason I enjoyed ECW was that two guys wrestling were credible and deserved their shot.

For example, in todays WWE, I think Edge's character is great, but has it gone too far? Can he not beat anyone serious without cheating or 'being an opportunist'? Surely his matches, and the likes of JBL's matches would be better if they were also booked on a level with the faces in terms of ability?

For me, matches like the recent Batista/JBL bout that ended in about 2 minutes killed JBL, and no amount of people saying that the promo made up for it, will convince me otherwise.

What are people's thoughts on this topic? Where is the balance to be found?

**Supreme Olajuwon** · 03-11-2009, 03:02 PM

Well hopefully Orton wins cleanly at Mania and then none of this will even matter.

**BigDaddyCool** · 03-11-2009, 03:08 PM

Cena has been built up as unstoppable, so has Batista. Edge and Orton, the 2 top wrestling heels have been built up as need to cheat to win. Heels in general have all been built as less than the face counter parts. So basically the title have become nothing more than a prop for a story, basically the McGuffin.

**Maluco** · 03-11-2009, 03:26 PM

Yeah, the title as a prop bothers me...and like Supreme says, Orton winning at Mania would go some way to creating a strong heel, if not a strong title.

Maybe it's just me, but I really loved JBL's lengthy title run and I think it gave the title real value because that is what he wanted. It also helped him become more credible because he was on top, so maybe the two go hand in hand, strong heels = strong world titles?

**SIDRA** · 03-11-2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen

Yeah, the title as a prop bothers me...and like Supreme says, Orton winning at Mania would go some way to creating a strong heel, if not a strong title.

Maybe it's just me, but I really loved JBL's lengthy title run and I think it gave the title real value because that is what he wanted. It also helped him become more credible because he was on top, so maybe the two go hand in hand, strong heels = strong world titles?

To an extent Fallen, I think strong characters make, "Strong world titles." And having someone cheat to win and duck defenses makes them look like a puss. Thus the title dose not look that important because you have a spinless champion.

JBL was a strong champ because he did defend his title, like a man, while at the same time making us hate him. He wasn't a puss champ, but he made you despise him.

"JBL stands for just beat a lizard."

And he was funny as hell sometimes. Overall a gr8 entertainer.

**Supreme Olajuwon** · 03-11-2009, 03:52 PM

Cowardly heels have their place and can be great champions if they do it right. HBK as intercontinental champ and Austin as TV champ spring to mind. But thats harder to do at the world title level

**Krimzon7** · 03-11-2009, 04:10 PM

Great examples. I also think of Flair. Edge's character is a decendant of Flair's. I think that Edge doesn't come off as cheesy, and he goes toe to toe with the best of them. His match with Taker at mania was epic. He countered finishers, Got in GREAT offense, and looked like a legit badass. Orton puts on similiar performances as well. This leads me to my conclusion. We have talent here for top heels(MVP springs to mind also) but we will never see the Heels, or Faces like yesteryear because the BOOKERS AND WRITERS suck. You can only play the hand you're dealt.

**Cactus Jack 54** · 03-11-2009, 04:39 PM

JBL's long title rein was impressive because you wanted to see him lose the strap. You hated him because he did win, and that's awesome. It's the same reason why people booed Cena all the time. They wanted him to lose the strap.

Krimzon makes a great point about Edge's character being a Flair decendant. How many times did you see Flair drop to his knees and beg his opponent to stop and when they backed down, tumb to the eye.

**Johnny Vegas** · 03-11-2009, 04:49 PM

I just think that heels need a clean win once in a while to be taken seriously. I understand the concept of cheating bc you will do w/e it takes to win bc the title and being the man is what its all about. But I think the only time a heel with the title should cheat a lot is if there is a bodyguard/manager that does the cheating I.e. HHH/Chyna. He was still seen as a credible champ even with chyna assisting bc he COULD probably win w/o her. Santino, as much as I like his humor, was NOT what the IC title needed.

**Cactus Jack 54** · 03-11-2009, 05:00 PM

It's kinda upsetting to see that the IC title has become what it has...almost nothing.

Same with both Tag Titles. Holding those used to mean something (however I think that The Miz, Morrison & The Colons are helping with that).

**Krimzon7** · 03-11-2009, 05:28 PM

They are, but what would really help are two OTHER tag teams that could be a legit threat to beat either of them on any given show... That would at least start the division...

**Cactus Jack 54** · 03-11-2009, 05:31 PM

Some with a serious gimmick maybe (cough...cough...Jesse & Festus...cough...cough)

**Krimzon7** · 03-11-2009, 05:35 PM

Of course, I don't think there is any more gas left in the cornfed collosus schtick. But the mizzorrison fued with them was gold.

**Splaya** · 03-11-2009, 05:37 PM

That JBL promo was the funniest thing I have ever seen

**Cactus Jack 54** · 03-11-2009, 05:38 PM

The stuff they're doing with The Colon's is gold. No lie.

How great would a Miz/Morrison Body Donna's feud be? Wait a minute...

**Hanso Amore** · 03-11-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splaya

That JBL promo was the funniest thing I have ever seen

LOL

I never watched a single show during JBLs reign, didnt watch smackdown from like 2002-2006.

But LOL, that looked great.

**Kane86** · 03-11-2009, 10:07 PM

Hell the heels are the only ones except for a few faces that even really seem to give a shit about putting forth some effort in there matches

**Mr. Nerfect** · 03-11-2009, 11:36 PM

Jack Swagger is coming along nicely as a strong heel. So far, he has pretty much won all his matches cleanly, with only his heel qualities mainly consisting of ruthlessness and just generally being a dickweed. While he is only the ECW Champion right now, that puts him a little higher than IC or US Title level, so if he can have a long run with that belt (ie. defeating Evan Bourne and WrestleMania, and actually holding it past the Extreme Rules PPV, crushing Tommy Dreamer's, well, dreams), then he could really step up and become a credible main eventer, as well as someone breathing life into a championship.

I'm hoping that the IC Title ends up being feuded over by JBL and Rey Mysterio, which would be good, because it's a former WWE Champion and former World Heavyweight Champion fighting over the title. JBL defending it at WrestleMania should be turned into a big deal, and Mysterio winning the belt could be huge.

Shelton Benjamin is racking up the months as US Champion, but he hasn't really been defending the belt much at all. Chavo Guerrero has beaten Benjamin in non-title matches, so having Shelton beat Chavo and MVP en route to Money in the Bank at WrestleMania could remind people that the belt exists.

There aren't enough tag teams in the WWE. By that I mean credible tag teams. I'm actually thinking they would do good to put Tyson Kidd with DH Smith, and actually let them join the SmackDown! title scene. The stuff between Mizorrison and The Colons is good, and when both sets of belts end up on one of the teams, it will make them look like a million bucks, but they then need to capitalise.

Randy Orton winning the WWE Title from Triple H cleanly at WrestleMania would be a huge moment, actually, as I don't think a heel has won cleanly in the Mania main event. Putting the World Heavyweight Title on Big Show might be the best thing for the big gold belt right now, as Show is a monster that won't need to cheat to win, and can play either the face or heel role convincingly.

**Mr. Nerfect** · 03-11-2009, 11:39 PM

One problem with the World Titles, that I don't think goes mentioned enough, is that they seem watered down because they are all grouped together. Right now, Triple H holds the record for both most WWE Title reigns (at 8) and most World Heavyweight Title reigns (at 5). That is a pretty big fucking deal, but I don't think the WWE have actually acknowledged that yet. It's like the WWE Title and World Heavyweight Title are the same fucking thing. There should be some difference between the two.

Guys seem to want the WWE Title one week, and then the next, it doesn't matter, because they can go after the World Heavyweight Title. Chris Jericho has seemingly made up his mind, and wants the World Heavyweight Title. I like that, because it means that being "World Heavyweight Champion" means something to the Jericho character. Perhaps even more than being the "WWE Champion."

03-11-2009, 03:02 PM	#2
Supreme Olajuwon You know that�s right Posts: 52,765	Well hopefully Orton wins cleanly at Mania and then none of this will even matter.

03-11-2009, 03:08 PM	#3
BigDaddyCool Pelvic Sorcerer Posts: 64,762	Cena has been built up as unstoppable, so has Batista. Edge and Orton, the 2 top wrestling heels have been built up as need to cheat to win. Heels in general have all been built as less than the face counter parts. So basically the title have become nothing more than a prop for a story, basically the McGuffin.

03-11-2009, 03:26 PM	#4
Maluco Reigning Tipsters Champ! Posts: 2,088	Yeah, the title as a prop bothers me...and like Supreme says, Orton winning at Mania would go some way to creating a strong heel, if not a strong title. Maybe it's just me, but I really loved JBL's lengthy title run and I think it gave the title real value because that is what he wanted. It also helped him become more credible because he was on top, so maybe the two go hand in hand, strong heels = strong world titles?

03-11-2009, 03:52 PM	#6
Supreme Olajuwon You know that�s right Posts: 52,765	Cowardly heels have their place and can be great champions if they do it right. HBK as intercontinental champ and Austin as TV champ spring to mind. But thats harder to do at the world title level

03-11-2009, 04:10 PM	#7
Krimzon7 King of the Ring Posts: 8,848	Great examples. I also think of Flair. Edge's character is a decendant of Flair's. I think that Edge doesn't come off as cheesy, and he goes toe to toe with the best of them. His match with Taker at mania was epic. He countered finishers, Got in GREAT offense, and looked like a legit badass. Orton puts on similiar performances as well. This leads me to my conclusion. We have talent here for top heels(MVP springs to mind also) but we will never see the Heels, or Faces like yesteryear because the BOOKERS AND WRITERS suck. You can only play the hand you're dealt.

03-11-2009, 04:39 PM	#8
Cactus Jack 54 Junior Member Posts: 43	JBL's long title rein was impressive because you wanted to see him lose the strap. You hated him because he did win, and that's awesome. It's the same reason why people booed Cena all the time. They wanted him to lose the strap. Krimzon makes a great point about Edge's character being a Flair decendant. How many times did you see Flair drop to his knees and beg his opponent to stop and when they backed down, tumb to the eye.

03-11-2009, 04:49 PM	#9
Johnny Vegas Head on a Rollercoaster Posts: 6,756	I just think that heels need a clean win once in a while to be taken seriously. I understand the concept of cheating bc you will do w/e it takes to win bc the title and being the man is what its all about. But I think the only time a heel with the title should cheat a lot is if there is a bodyguard/manager that does the cheating I.e. HHH/Chyna. He was still seen as a credible champ even with chyna assisting bc he COULD probably win w/o her. Santino, as much as I like his humor, was NOT what the IC title needed.

03-11-2009, 05:00 PM	#10
Cactus Jack 54 Junior Member Posts: 43	It's kinda upsetting to see that the IC title has become what it has...almost nothing. Same with both Tag Titles. Holding those used to mean something (however I think that The Miz, Morrison & The Colons are helping with that).

03-11-2009, 05:28 PM	#11
Krimzon7 King of the Ring Posts: 8,848	They are, but what would really help are two OTHER tag teams that could be a legit threat to beat either of them on any given show... That would at least start the division...

03-11-2009, 05:31 PM	#12
Cactus Jack 54 Junior Member Posts: 43	Some with a serious gimmick maybe (cough...cough...Jesse & Festus...cough...cough)

03-11-2009, 05:35 PM	#13
Krimzon7 King of the Ring Posts: 8,848	Of course, I don't think there is any more gas left in the cornfed collosus schtick. But the mizzorrison fued with them was gold.

03-11-2009, 05:37 PM	#14
Splaya 1-0 TPWW Chess Master Posts: 17,211	That JBL promo was the funniest thing I have ever seen

03-11-2009, 05:38 PM	#15
Cactus Jack 54 Junior Member Posts: 43	The stuff they're doing with The Colon's is gold. No lie. How great would a Miz/Morrison Body Donna's feud be? Wait a minute...

03-11-2009, 10:07 PM	#17
Kane86 Got fired by the Clique Posts: 3,206	Hell the heels are the only ones except for a few faces that even really seem to give a shit about putting forth some effort in there matches

03-11-2009, 11:36 PM	#18
Mr. Nerfect Posts: 61,634	Jack Swagger is coming along nicely as a strong heel. So far, he has pretty much won all his matches cleanly, with only his heel qualities mainly consisting of ruthlessness and just generally being a dickweed. While he is only the ECW Champion right now, that puts him a little higher than IC or US Title level, so if he can have a long run with that belt (ie. defeating Evan Bourne and WrestleMania, and actually holding it past the Extreme Rules PPV, crushing Tommy Dreamer's, well, dreams), then he could really step up and become a credible main eventer, as well as someone breathing life into a championship. I'm hoping that the IC Title ends up being feuded over by JBL and Rey Mysterio, which would be good, because it's a former WWE Champion and former World Heavyweight Champion fighting over the title. JBL defending it at WrestleMania should be turned into a big deal, and Mysterio winning the belt could be huge. Shelton Benjamin is racking up the months as US Champion, but he hasn't really been defending the belt much at all. Chavo Guerrero has beaten Benjamin in non-title matches, so having Shelton beat Chavo and MVP en route to Money in the Bank at WrestleMania could remind people that the belt exists. There aren't enough tag teams in the WWE. By that I mean credible tag teams. I'm actually thinking they would do good to put Tyson Kidd with DH Smith, and actually let them join the SmackDown! title scene. The stuff between Mizorrison and The Colons is good, and when both sets of belts end up on one of the teams, it will make them look like a million bucks, but they then need to capitalise. Randy Orton winning the WWE Title from Triple H cleanly at WrestleMania would be a huge moment, actually, as I don't think a heel has won cleanly in the Mania main event. Putting the World Heavyweight Title on Big Show might be the best thing for the big gold belt right now, as Show is a monster that won't need to cheat to win, and can play either the face or heel role convincingly.

03-11-2009, 11:39 PM	#19
Mr. Nerfect Posts: 61,634	One problem with the World Titles, that I don't think goes mentioned enough, is that they seem watered down because they are all grouped together. Right now, Triple H holds the record for both most WWE Title reigns (at 8) and most World Heavyweight Title reigns (at 5). That is a pretty big fucking deal, but I don't think the WWE have actually acknowledged that yet. It's like the WWE Title and World Heavyweight Title are the same fucking thing. There should be some difference between the two. Guys seem to want the WWE Title one week, and then the next, it doesn't matter, because they can go after the World Heavyweight Title. Chris Jericho has seemingly made up his mind, and wants the World Heavyweight Title. I like that, because it means that being "World Heavyweight Champion" means something to the Jericho character. Perhaps even more than being the "WWE Champion."