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Old 05-11-2009, 08:42 AM   #1
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A Wrestler’s Union?
Has there ever been, or will there ever be, a Wrestler’s Union?

When I first started getting into wrestling, a few years ago, I asked a friend of mine (He lurks here as Altar of Helmsley) if any of the wrestlers have conceived creating a union or guild for job security, etc.

From what I understand, in the WWE, Vince has most workers by the balls. He employs them as contractors, rather than full time staff, and can more or less hire and fire them with impunity. If I wrestler gets injured and needs a few months off, they can be released from their contract at no cost to the company.

If a group of Wrestlers got together and created a Union, even with my limited knowledge in the area, they’d be able to create a workers group that would protect them contractually from any below the belt shenanigans the industry likes to pull. Membership fees to such a union could even cover medical bills and pensions, to a limited extent?

To guys like The Undertaker, Tripple H, and Cena, the idea of a union is a little redundant, what with the large salaries and perks they get for being main event. Some wrestlers have jobs for life as road agents and bookers, too.

But there are a large percentage of workers who will for the most part of their careers been seen as expendable.

Anywho, what are your thoughts on the matter? Is the system fine as it is? Am I missing any glaring flaws in the idea?
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Old 05-11-2009, 09:42 AM   #2
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Well, Vince would certainly bust any union, and let's face it. He's got a lot of the major players by the short hairs.

Also, can you really have a union in a culture where virtually everyone would rape their own mothers for a big push?
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Old 05-11-2009, 09:50 AM   #3
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KK, always burying a TV show that he posts on a forum about.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:52 AM   #4
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:26 PM   #5
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Never been one. Would be a great thing. Will very probably never happen.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
KK, always burying a TV show that he posts on a forum about.
Doesn't change what he said, or make it any less true.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:46 PM   #7
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic View Post
Doesn't change what he said, or make it any less true.
Please get off Kane Knight's dick, and create your own thoughts.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Please get off Kane Knight's dick, and create your own thoughts.
I guess it's easier to do that than come up with a reasonable argument.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic View Post
I guess it's easier to do that than come up with a reasonable argument.
Well I am glad to know that "Also, can you really have a union in a culture where virtually everyone would rape their own mothers for a big push?" is a reasonable argument.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:51 PM   #11
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So the two wrongs theory?

Maybe not, but it's rather close to the truth.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic View Post
Doesn't change what he said, or make it any less true.
Not to mention, I didn't really bury it. I simply addressed the issue.

But between that and bitching about me, James will choose the latter every time.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Not to mention, I didn't really bury it. I simply addressed the issue.

But between that and bitching about me, James will choose the latter every time.
I thought you had him on ignore. Or, at least, that's what you say every time you don't feel like responding to him.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Well I am glad to know that "Also, can you really have a union in a culture where virtually everyone would rape their own mothers for a big push?" is a reasonable argument.
Yes, I can see how that would be seen as unreasonable. It takes the reality of the pro wrestling scene (taken almost verbatim from Rob Harvey) and asks if, in that light, it's possible to have a union.

Positing a question based on the situation at hand? Unreasonable.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedious View Post
I thought you had him on ignore. Or, at least, that's what you say every time you don't feel like responding to him.
See the part of IC's post where Steele is quoted?

GAWRSH, I wonder how I knew what he was saying.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:18 PM   #16
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Which I'm sure makes you qualified to tell us how he reacts "every time." Unless, of course, you were just being an asshole.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Yes, I can see how that would be seen as unreasonable. It takes the reality of the pro wrestling scene (taken almost verbatim from Rob Harvey) and asks if, in that light, it's possible to have a union.

Positing a question based on the situation at hand? Unreasonable.

I am glad Rob is the definitive source of knowledge for the wrestling world.

You are just trying to smear wrestling and wide-brush the entire business as drug-abusing carnie hacks and that is not a reason to be your played out attempts to be above pro wrestling whenever you post about it. Wrestling isn't a business made for a union because of the precedent set of hiring them as independent contractors which will not change barring legal intervention.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
I am glad Rob is the definitive source of knowledge for the wrestling world.

You are just trying to smear wrestling and wide-brush the entire business as drug-abusing carnie hacks and that is not a reason to be your played out attempts to be above pro wrestling whenever you post about it. Wrestling isn't a business made for a union because of the precedent set of hiring them as independent contractors which will not change barring legal intervention.
Just to make sure he sees it. If he hasn't started pretending to ignore me too.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:21 PM   #19
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Didnt Raven go to court over this not too long ago?
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRA View Post
Didnt Raven go to court over this not too long ago?
He went to court over the treatment of wrestlers as independent contractors and lost. Not quite the same. At the risk of "burying" the show I'm posting about, it was so hilarious watching 85% of TPWW hopping on board Raven's cock despite a lack of any real legal grounds to his claim.

Because wishful thinking>logic on TPWW.
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:40 AM   #21
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It is too hard to have a Union when one guy who could get a huge push and make millions would drop the dime in a second. Nature of the business.
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:50 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash Bang Newstead View Post
It is too hard to have a Union when one guy who could get a huge push and make millions would drop the dime in a second. Nature of the business.

It is the nature of business in general.
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
It is the nature of business in general.
Difference is, people in other businesses can move on and do something else... wrestlers (other than a few exceptions) can only really be one thing... wrestlers.
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:09 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash Bang Newstead View Post
Difference is, people in other businesses can move on and do something else... wrestlers (other than a few exceptions) can only really be one thing... wrestlers.
That is called the sum total of a person's life choices. You get into the wrestling business, you should know the score. It's nobody else's responsibility to make sure you have a nice cozy place to work.
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Tedious View Post
That is called the sum total of a person's life choices. You get into the wrestling business, you should know the score. It's nobody else's responsibility to make sure you have a nice cozy place to work.
I wasn't really saying anything against or for that. I just said the reason wrestler's can't start unions is because it's cut throat and someone will drop the dime.

JS said well that's like all business... and thus my reply. Whether or not they dig their own graves is not of the essence and not what I was discussing, all I was saying was there can't be a union because there is too much at risk in attempting to create one... whereas in other business, there is not the same risk because people have fallbacks.
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:37 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Crash Bang Newstead View Post
Difference is, people in other businesses can move on and do something else... wrestlers (other than a few exceptions) can only really be one thing... wrestlers.
I can think of a couple of differences which I'd place as more important.

The first is the talent pool. I mean, few people in wrestling are truly unreplacable, and those are the guys who are least likely to want or need a union. Lower tier guys, the ones who most need a union, are the ones most readily replaced, and there's a LOT of people who would love to be on WWE or even TNA TV.

Second is exactly what Raven sued over. The classification of wrestlers as contractors makes it a lot harder to nail someone like Vince for Union Busting.

Third, and this may be most important of all, a union will air a lot of dirty laundry. The problem being, this will hurt a lot of the wrestlers more than the company. It's not in the best interest of a lot of wrestlers to address the elephants in the room.
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:43 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
I can think of a couple of differences which I'd place as more important.

The first is the talent pool. I mean, few people in wrestling are truly unreplacable, and those are the guys who are least likely to want or need a union. Lower tier guys, the ones who most need a union, are the ones most readily replaced, and there's a LOT of people who would love to be on WWE or even TNA TV.

Second is exactly what Raven sued over. The classification of wrestlers as contractors makes it a lot harder to nail someone like Vince for Union Busting.

Third, and this may be most important of all, a union will air a lot of dirty laundry. The problem being, this will hurt a lot of the wrestlers more than the company. It's not in the best interest of a lot of wrestlers to address the elephants in the room.
All very valid points. But still, if Vince caught wind of any of it, anyone responsible would be buried (if they weren't already) or fired.

It is just lose/lose for these guys. They really need one too, it'd definitely keep the environment safer, but it is just not realistic at this point in time.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:22 AM   #28
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Well when speaking about unions, you have to bring up the closest union to that of a professional wrestler, and that would be the union of an actor, or the Screen Actor's Guild. I'm not familiar with how they operate, so I'm curious on how they protect an actor. Do they prevent them from losing jobs, garenteeing there benefits, or setting there pay? Would the things that something like the Screen Actor's Guild offer be beneficial to a wrestler?


On a side note, I remember Darren Aronofsky (director of "The Wrestler") was saying awhile back that since WWE doesn't qualify there wrestlers as "wrestlers", then they should fall in the category of actor and should be inducted into SAG. Not really the reason I brought up the comparison, but it was interesting to add.
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Old 05-12-2009, 03:51 AM   #29
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Uni...onal_wrestling)

The stable members came together because they felt they were being treated unjustly by The Corporation since Shane McMahon usurped power in the stable from his father, WWF Chairman Vince McMahon. The group formed on May 3, 1999, four days after The Undertaker's Ministry of Darkness and Shane's Corporation merged to create the Corporate Ministry.
The four Union members were not alone as they feuded with the Corporate Ministry. The ousted chairman Vince McMahon briefly led the Union into battle, and superstars such as The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and WWF Commissioner Shawn Michaels were loosely allied with the Union, as they all had common enemies in the Corporate Ministry.
At Over the Edge, The Union defeated a Corporate Ministry team consisting of The Acolytes, Viscera and Big Bossman in an elimination match.[1]
On May 31, Mankind received several sledgehammer blows to the knee in a hardcore match with Triple H.[2] In reality, Mick Foley had needed knee surgery due to injuries suffered months earlier at Survivor Series[3] and St. Valentine's Day Massacre.[4] He would be unable to wrestle until August 1999. The following week, Mr. McMahon revealed himself as the "Higher Power" which the Undertaker had been taking orders from the entire time he was in command of the Ministry of Darkness, and later the Corporate Ministry. With their lead wrestler injured and their most powerful political ally turned against them, the Union disbanded.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:29 AM   #30
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I was thinking. If wrestlers are not classed as employees, this means that they don't get holiday entitlement or paid leave etc, do they? Might be a US to UK difference in there as far as my thinking goes.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:47 AM   #31
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I'm not sure of a union per se, but there needs to be something that protects independent wrestlers and promotions alike. There are too many wrestlers who consider themselves to be above smaller promotions, take a booking and then no show, hurting the independent promotion in the process.

I know Bret's been saying for sometime that there needs to be a Wrestler's union. If he wants one so bad, he should be the one to make a difference and start the ball rolling. I can see the benefits from it for a wrestler. If they make regular contributions into a union, if they are injured, there could be options to cover pay, mortgages, etc. Yes this could be bled dry by some guys, but that's when you get independent doctors and phsicians to sign off on an injury.

Obviously, guys on guaranteed contracts...the top guys, etc. wouldn't ever need to join a union. So what if Vince doesn't recognise it. If enough independents joined a union, one day, there would come a time that he wanted a guy signed up to a union, and in a "never say never" business like this, Vince would swallow his pride.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:55 AM   #32
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I remember Bret saying when WCW folded that there was no chance of there being a Wrestler's union due to that happening.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:10 AM   #33
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Bret says a lot of things.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:16 AM   #34
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Bret Hart said it, which completely invalidates it according to IWC rule #5.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:32 AM   #35
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Kane Knight adding nothing of value to the conversation. TPWW Rule #1.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:36 AM   #36
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Kane Knight adding nothing of value to the conversation. TPWW Rule #1.
More of a maxim than a rule, I'd say.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:38 AM   #37
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Touche
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:19 PM   #38
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James Steele lying and being a hypocrite. Not a rule, but certainly a given.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:23 PM   #39
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