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Old 11-01-2009, 02:24 AM   #1
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Could wrestling exist without the face/heel divide?
I was thinking about this while posting in the "TNA Good?" thread. Do you think that wrestling could survive without clear-cut faces and heels? I'll add my thoughts later, but it'll be interesting to see what people here say.

Pfft
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Old 11-01-2009, 02:29 AM   #2
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I think it could. It would have to be a gradual change though. I think it would give wrestling a more "legit" feel because you could choose who you cheer for instead of who the writing team wants you to cheer for.
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Old 11-01-2009, 03:30 AM   #3
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This is wrestling without face or heel
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Old 11-01-2009, 05:09 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post
I think it could. It would have to be a gradual change though. I think it would give wrestling a more "legit" feel because you could choose who you cheer for instead of who the writing team wants you to cheer for.
This is what I think. It would also let the program seem less "cartoony." In real life, there are more likable personalities than some, but the best drama comes from characters that are fully developed. They have qualities that you like, but they also have their vices and weaknesses.

For example: Triple H is a completely different character as a face and as a heel. As a heel, he is obsessed with the World Title, and will step on his best friend and even start nailing the boss' daughter to do it. As a face, he pretty much loses sight of the World Championship, and instead makes poop and fart jokes. I think he pretty much forgot that the reason he and Shawn Michaels went after Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase was because they wanted to weaken Orton.

Triple H could work as a face obsessed with the title. If things had been switched in 2004, and Evolution had kicked Triple H out of Evolution, Triple H would have suddenly become the protagonist of his own story, and would have had a reason to avenge himself against Evolution, but also something to prove to himself. That wouldn't mean he'd suddenly be buddy-buddy with Chris Benoit or Shawn Michaels, whom absolutely hated him at the time, and he still could have wrestled them; and they very well could have said that Triple H got what was coming to him.

Meanwhile, Orton was getting cheers at this point in time, and when he makes points like "I beat Chris Benoit when Triple H couldn't; I am no longer the future...I am the present," there would be truth to it. Orton's goals don't make him a bad guy, per se. He's essentially the same as Triple H -- they just both want the World Heavyweight Title, and only one can have it.

I guess basically what I'm suggesting isn't so much that the protagonist/antagonist effect of wrestling would be completely stripped away; but the characters would be deeper, more personal, and real human beings trying to achieve what they want to achieve, and not cartoon characters serving as stock.
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Old 11-01-2009, 05:17 AM   #5
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That's pretty much the way it is in njpw, noah, and pre-split ajpw.

Some wrestles are cockier, and more rebellious, but not much more than legit sports stars. There are no "bad guys".
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:08 AM   #6
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It would make it more special when you do get a bad guy. Not an cartoony one, but a dude who is genuinely an asshole who you don't like.
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:53 AM   #7
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I'm not sure if this is the place for this but I like deranged nutjob Edge more than any other Edge

dunno why I needed to mention that
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:41 AM   #8
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I think either a shift like this would draw in a large new audience or kill a large portion of the audience in the US. I think WWF could have secured something like this if they had taken the Attitude Era to a more logical conclusion.
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Old 11-01-2009, 10:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippord View Post
I'm not sure if this is the place for this but I like deranged nutjob Edge more than any other Edge

dunno why I needed to mention that
Me too.
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Old 11-01-2009, 10:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
I think either a shift like this would draw in a large new audience or kill a large portion of the audience in the US. I think WWF could have secured something like this if they had taken the Attitude Era to a more logical conclusion.
I'd agree with this. It'd be a risky venture.

I think that a large part of the Attitude era dying was Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn at WrestleMania X-7. The deal with the devil was brilliant, but it scared away a lot of the fanbase that felt betrayed. However, it would have made perfect sense to have had Triple H turn face here and battle Austin, who was his arch-nemesis.

It wouldn't be that Triple H was now a good guy. He'd be the same sick, psychopathic, scheming manipulator. It's just because he hates Austin that the fans would now cheer for him. He'd be a protagonist for the fans who hated Austin selling his soul for the WWE Title. It'd essentially be two bad guys fighting, but the fans would have bought into it, hook, line and sinker.
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Old 11-01-2009, 10:33 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippord View Post
I'm not sure if this is the place for this but I like deranged nutjob Edge more than any other Edge

dunno why I needed to mention that
I really liked face Edge in 2002. I thought he was extremely entertaining. I do love crazy, Joker-esque Edge, however. I thought he made a fantastic character when he was heading into Hell in a Cell against The Undertaker. I thought he was on the ball enough to return as a face from that, actually.
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:32 PM   #12
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noids first post makes sense but wouldn't everyone in the company be chasing the world title then?why bother going for the ic/us belt.as a 'real human being' every guy would wanna be on top
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Old 11-01-2009, 02:27 PM   #13
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It works for selected character here and there (in the WWE at least). But if WWE had no divide it wouldn't be WWE anymore, and they would lose a lot of money.
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Old 11-01-2009, 03:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I was thinking about this while posting in the "TNA Good?" thread. Do you think that wrestling could survive without clear-cut faces and heels? I'll add my thoughts later, but it'll be interesting to see what people here say.
I had a similar thought back in late 2007. My hypothesis at the time was that by allowing EVERYONE the choice of cutting heel promos, it would create character maximization.

(i.e. we all fell in love with guys like The Rock, Austin, Angle, Jericho, Guerrero, Orton, etc. when they were heels).

The fans would then NATURALLY start cheering certain wrestlers anyways.....and would probably cheer those wrestlers louder and harder anyways because technically, "they are not supposed to."
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Old 11-01-2009, 03:52 PM   #15
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I was going to mention Japans lack of a divide, I think ECW in the old days came closest to destroying that line

'Ive only heard of the nutjob heel edge can anyone give me any vids of this
Last edited by KIRA; 11-01-2009 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 11-01-2009, 04:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBPunk View Post
noids first post makes sense but wouldn't everyone in the company be chasing the world title then?why bother going for the ic/us belt.as a 'real human being' every guy would wanna be on top
Not neccessarily. Some guys might choose to compete in the tag team scene. Some might choose to develop themselves in the IC/US Title scene. Others might be more fitted to ECW than RAW or SmackDown!. I don't think the face/heel divide keeps guys in separate divisions.
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:37 PM   #17
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I'm would say that this really wouldn't work on a massive scale in the US wrestling scene. Yea, it works it Japan, but there are fundamental differences in perception and presentation of pro wrestling in Japan and America.
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:12 PM   #18
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Probably would be something similar to MMA or boxing with their atheletes. Someone like a Ali/Tyson or Lesnar/Tito Ortiz who would seem to be a "heel" just by trash talking or being dominate in their matches which makes the crowd cheer in amazement or root for his opponent as a way to stop his arrogance.

It probably wouldn't work in an existing wrestling company like the WWE or WCW since they were established on the heel/face divide but maybe a debuting or relatively small company where they would need to be different to get mainstream attention.
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Old 11-01-2009, 10:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid
Could wrestling exist without the face/heel divide?
Could it exist? Yes. Would it anything near what it is today in terms of popularity, size, and income? No. Would it be dumb as hell? Yes.
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