I have a question about Gamergate [Archive] - Page 2

Big Vic

10-29-2014, 12:08 PM

I'm not saying it does, RDD.

ECG answer these things for me
Where do you see ideas of toxic masculinity?
Can you see ideas of toxic masculinity in video games?
Recently has Anitas youtube channel been primarily about video games?

Vastardikai

10-29-2014, 12:13 PM

http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/actually-its-about-ethics-jaws.png

Just wanted to point out I found this on a google search, and liked it. Similarly, I found the Simpson one on my Tumblr page. I had no hand in creating it. Wish I did though, it's kind of spot on.

El Capitano Gatisto

10-29-2014, 12:17 PM

I'm not saying it does, RDD.

ECG answer these things for me
Where do you see ideas of toxic masculinity?
Can you see ideas of toxic masculinity in video games?
Recently has Anitas youtube channel been primarily about video games?

"Ideas of toxic masculinity" is not my term, it's Anita Sarkeesian's.

But yes there are plenty of problematic themes regarding gender and masculinity in games, just as there are on TV, in films, in music, in advertising, in fashion, in sport, in factual media.

Sarkeesian's youtube channel has been about these themes in games, as it has been about television, music etc.

Here-in lies the problem: you cannot articulate your own argument yet you expect me to articulate it for you. You said:

I don't think she is blaming sexism. I think what she is saying is that the men and boys play the video games (or watch the action movies) and want to act it out in real life.

Where did you extrapolate this form? She makes NO mention or allusion to games in her tweet regarding mass shootings. She states clearly she believes the roots of violence lie with sexism. What has any of that got to do with your interpretation of what she has said?

Do you understand how logic works? Can you comprehend sentences written in fairly basic English? If you can, you need to explain how you have arrived at the conclusion that Sarkeesian has stated that games cause men to want to act out violence from games in real life.

Big Vic

10-29-2014, 12:30 PM

ANITA TALKS ABOUT VIDEO GAMES IN HER CHANNEL YOU WOULD KNOW THAT IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCHED HER VIDEOS. ANITA TALKS ABOUT VIDEO GAMES IN HER TWITTER, READ HER TWEETS. THE MAJORITY OF THE STUFF THAT COMES OUT OF HER MOUTH IS ABOUT VIDEO GAMES.

drave

10-29-2014, 12:34 PM

LOOUUUUUUD NOISES!

El Capitano Gatisto

10-29-2014, 12:35 PM

ANITA TALKS ABOUT VIDEO GAMES IN HER CHANNEL YOU WOULD KNOW THAT IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCHED HER VIDEOS. ANITA TALKS ABOUT VIDEO GAMES IN HER TWITTER, READ HER TWEETS. THE MAJORITY OF THE STUFF THAT COMES OUT OF HER MOUTH IS ABOUT VIDEO GAMES.


What's your point?

El Capitano Gatisto

10-29-2014, 12:39 PM

Except where she explicitly does.

Raven Reaper

10-29-2014, 07:15 PM

What is your point?

If your point is that men are more violent in school shootings and toxic masculinity exists, well, guess what? Since you're a guy yourself, you should just cut off your dick and be a woman so that you won't be included in that demographic then as a toxic masculine guy? Makes sense to you, you fucking idiot?

ron the dial

10-29-2014, 07:16 PM

that makes absolutely no sense.

Raven Reaper

10-29-2014, 07:21 PM

Basically, if you're born with a penis, you already have an invisible toxic masculinity inside you.. So, yeah, it's like Anita's shaming men for being masculine in their behavior.

The solution then is you just either cut off your dick and change sex or you might as well be born with a vagina insread...

ron the dial

10-29-2014, 07:23 PM

no, i understood what you said. it still makes absolutely no sense.

road doggy dogg

10-29-2014, 07:33 PM

That's quite a leap in logic there.

Raven Reaper

10-29-2014, 07:41 PM

no, i understood what you said. it still makes absolutely no sense.

OK *drops mic*

http://i.imgur.com/4btnQgv.gif

Kalyx triaD

10-29-2014, 08:07 PM

How many journalists have been doxed for reasons other than bitching about Gamergate?

I dunno.

Show me the big action you guys have planned against Game Informer, the video game review magazine run by a video game store.

Like the obviously bought and paid for IGN, they're relatively benign compared to the judgmental, inflammatory sites we've focused on. While they're totally under the publisher's heels, I think people rather that than being called 'sexist racist misogynerds' for enjoying Bayonetta.

But if it makes you feel any better, paid for reviews are in fact something GG dudes have touched on, including unearthing letters for Shadows of Morder's publisher asking YouTubers to present their game favorably under bane of DMCAs. These things will be approached, I imagine, but priorities priorities.

Discuss a conflict of interest in video game journalism, besides Dorito-Gate, that has really eaten at you.

Me personally?

- Game journalist don't seem to know what they're talking about anymore. Many previews and reviews use increasingly vague language and simple observations discussing games.
- On top of this, they circumvent their decreasing focus on gameplay by speaking more about shit besides the point of the game. While this isn't a GG thing per se - I find these 'game critics' problematic only because they're slowly replacing actual game inspection.
- These journalists then get access to preview events (E3, TGS, etc) while YouTubers and smaller sites/blogs who know a thing or two wait to break press releases after the fact.
- Deeper into some preview events; publishers treating journalists like kings and leaning their play experience (ref: 'Vertical Slice', I think it's called).
- A cultural gulf between how IGN and Game Informer explores Western games versus Eastern games.
- Flimsy game analysis when playing games that are similar to other competitors. Back in the day an article would be free to mention Rock Band in a Guitar Hero article and vice versa - but that has slowed to a very noticeable point. Why do you think that is?
- Editors placing just any writer on any game like their personal preferences mean dick. Kotaku's Patricia Hernandez covered Advanced Warfare. Comedy of the year.
- Game journalists not educating themselves on how to talk to Japanese developers. Often the culture distinction leads to unintentional laughs, other times it's awkward, and a few times it's borderline rude.
- Turning back to journalists not knowing a damn thing anymore; many preview videos (>>>IGN<<<) seem to go out of their way to get people who just barely care about the game they're covering. IGN's a strange beast here because they do have people who know their shit. IGN has an unusually large fighting game base within their writer's, for instance. I suppose they could vet future writers on game preference to have a varied experience base but I won't hold my breath.
- More but I forget right now.

Now I've heard before this false choice of game sites who shill games versus sites who shill their political agendas, but I believe there's degrees. They can both exist, with happy mediums filling the mainstream void. Lots of sites I never visited before stepped up, but they have some ways to go before they can get the kind of access the chief offenders can get.

I would suggest publishers remove the middle man altogether and provide preview builds and demos to the public each time they do for journalists. This would lessen the public worship of game writers' opinions and build a more informed consumer base all at once. Publishers can also go Nintendo's 'Direct' route, which some companies are already doing. These are basically video power points, but the longer, in-depth nature is far better than 2min CGI trailers.

Anyway yeah, that's my beef with game journalists - if you meant me personally.

Vastardikai

10-30-2014, 01:21 AM

I dunno.

Reason why I'm asking is because from what I've seen, going strictly off of what I've seen, most, if not all, of the people getting doxed have been either female developers or critics of GG.

Like the obviously bought and paid for IGN, they're relatively benign compared to the judgmental, inflammatory sites we've focused on. While they're totally under the publisher's heels, I think people rather that than being called 'sexist racist misogynerds' for enjoying Bayonetta.

It can go either way on Bayonetta. On one hand, she's a powerful character. On the other, couldn't she be a powerful character with a less revealing outfit? I'm not saying put her in a burqa, but it's kind of ridiculous looking.

But if it makes you feel any better, paid for reviews are in fact something GG dudes have touched on, including unearthing letters for Shadows of Morder's publisher asking YouTubers to present their game favorably under bane of DMCAs. These things will be approached, I imagine, but priorities priorities.

If anything, I'd say that's a bigger issue than who is fucking who or who is saying mean things about who. If that's the case, then I'd argue that GG has its priorities fucked up.

- Game journalist don't seem to know what they're talking about anymore. Many previews and reviews use increasingly vague language and simple observations discussing games.

Reasonable point. The thing is, that's not a problem plaguing just video game journalists. Journalists in general go with simplified observations and vague language on issues that actually matter.

- On top of this, they circumvent their decreasing focus on gameplay by speaking more about shit besides the point of the game. While this isn't a GG thing per se - I find these 'game critics' problematic only because they're slowly replacing actual game inspection.

If anything, I'd say this is a matter of personal preference. It'd hard to do a review of "Let's Be Cops", for instance, without discussing the context of what was going on at the time the movie hit theaters. That's a mileage may vary kind of thing.

- These journalists then get access to preview events (E3, TGS, etc) while YouTubers and smaller sites/blogs who know a thing or two wait to break press releases after the fact.
- Deeper into some preview events; publishers treating journalists like kings and leaning their play experience (ref: 'Vertical Slice', I think it's called).

Fair points here. I certainly have problems with these items. Angry Joe has also gone on about these issues in the past. The thing is, if this was brought up, instead of some of the stupid shit your cause does in fact go after, they would easily get more people on board with them. And again, these two issues aren't just issues with Video Game Journalists. Look at the White House Correspondence Club Dinner (or whatever the hell it's called) for a similar circle jerk between the media and the people they're supposed to be covering.

- A cultural gulf between how IGN and Game Informer explores Western games versus Eastern games.

Again, I can understand that. That would actually make for an interesting topic of conversation. It's not something I fully understand, but that would be a compelling story. Much more than someone posting concerns about how a cause is going, followed by the cause proving her right less than an hour later.

- Flimsy game analysis when playing games that are similar to other competitors. Back in the day an article would be free to mention Rock Band in a Guitar Hero article and vice versa - but that has slowed to a very noticeable point. Why do you think that is?
- Editors placing just any writer on any game like their personal preferences mean dick. Kotaku's Patricia Hernandez covered Advanced Warfare. Comedy of the year.

Maybe that was accident, maybe that's design. Comedy of the Year, however, would have been me trying to review it. It probably would have been along the lines of "See last year's review. Also, the Military should probably go through other means to find new recruits."

- Game journalists not educating themselves on how to talk to Japanese developers. Often the culture distinction leads to unintentional laughs, other times it's awkward, and a few times it's borderline rude.

This is one that I haven't seen in more mainstream outlets, but I can see that as being an issue. Something else specific that GG could get behind, if it didn't com off as bitching about "SJWs."

- Turning back to journalists not knowing a damn thing anymore; many preview videos (>>>IGN<<<) seem to go out of their way to get people who just barely care about the game they're covering. IGN's a strange beast here because they do have people who know their shit. IGN has an unusually large fighting game base within their writer's, for instance. I suppose they could vet future writers on game preference to have a varied experience base but I won't hold my breath.
- More but I forget right now.

And again, that would be a valid complaint. Gamepro wasn't much better back in the day, as far as their writing staffs being heavy into fighting games. At least then there was more mainstream fighting games. (hell, it's likely the same cast of clowns.)

Now I've heard before this false choice of game sites who shill games versus sites who shill their political agendas, but I believe there's degrees. They can both exist, with happy mediums filling the mainstream void. Lots of sites I never visited before stepped up, but they have some ways to go before they can get the kind of access the chief offenders can get.

I understand your sentiment, but let's be honest. The point of reviews, be it movie, music, or games, is ultimately to shill the product they are reviewing. Sometimes, the political agendas help shape that shilling.

I would suggest publishers remove the middle man altogether and provide preview builds and demos to the public each time they do for journalists. This would lessen the public worship of game writers' opinions and build a more informed consumer base all at once. Publishers can also go Nintendo's 'Direct' route, which some companies are already doing. These are basically video power points, but the longer, in-depth nature is far better than 2min CGI trailers.

On one hand, I like the idea. On the other, this could start boxing out smaller developers further as this could very easily become financially unfeasible.

But thank you on answering my questions. At least you are a bit more intellectually honest than many of the folks who attach themselves to your cause.

However, when Ms. Sarkeesan starts throwing out frivolous lawsuit after frivolous lawsuit attacking games, then talk to me about how she's Jack Thompson.

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 04:23 AM

Kalyx triaD

10-30-2014, 04:25 AM

Before I go point by point; I wanna clarify that those issues I posted were my personal beef with games journalism, rather than the goals of GamerGate (which was posted on the second page or so). You wrote a few times that where you agreed on a point that GG should turn their attention to it, and I would of course like that. There are places where GG and my own criticisms cross paths, I'll try to note these points. Just wanted to make sure these points were my own issues with the industry over the years.

Reason why I'm asking is because from what I've seen, going strictly off of what I've seen, most, if not all, of the people getting doxed have been either female developers or critics of GG.

If that's what you seen I can't fault you for that, nor do I expect you to filter through posts on Twitter or have the insight I had over the months. I can however offer to give you examples of people on the GG side being doxxed and harassed if you want. Early in the thread I was very link happy, but the following pages shows they went largely unnoticed or responded to. From this point on I'll simply offer to provide evidence of certain claims either here or in PMs. I'll need to know people have a genuine interest before I go mining links. Offers on the table. But if you're willing to take my word (for what it's worth to you), yes - people on GG side have been getting the same attacks at the same frequency. It's not what makes it on the headlines and our victims certainly don't get the interviews with MSNBC, but it's happened.

It can go either way on Bayonetta. On one hand, she's a powerful character. On the other, couldn't she be a powerful character with a less revealing outfit? I'm not saying put her in a burqa, but it's kind of ridiculous looking.

The funny thing about Bayonetta is she's a character who is covered from the neck down 70% of the time. Her visual gimmick with her clothes receding only occurs during the end of combos and her finishing moves against bosses. Even then the camera sways away to her summoned beast tearing apart a boss. Here's the 'revealing outfit' you're talking about, that she's in most of the time (https://platinumgames.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/2_2bayo_02.jpg). Consider that she's wearing more than Mirror's Edge's Faith.

Now her character and mannerisms are certainly sexual, but in true hack-n-slash fashion it's over the top as to be comical. She 'vogues' ffs. If that's still a point against her we then have to discuss her creator Kamiya, who's an excellent game designer (DMC1, Viewtiful Joe, Wonderful 101, Okami). Perhaps somebody else could have made Bayonetta and have her less hyper sexual, but then we wouldn't have the best hack-n-slash game ever (opinion mine). Or rather, would you want Kamiya to adjust his creative freedom? I'll choose his creative freedom and game design philosophy every time. Package deal, as it is with any entertainment medium.

If anything, I'd say that's a bigger issue than who is fucking who or who is saying mean things about who. If that's the case, then I'd argue that GG has its priorities fucked up.

As I said my own issues don't line up 100% with GG. The group as a whole wants journalistic integrity; and yeah that means writers and subjects fucking will be called out. It's GG's priority as a movement, and I agree.

Reasonable point. The thing is, that's not a problem plaguing just video game journalists. Journalists in general go with simplified observations and vague language on issues that actually matter.

Sure, but games journalism would naturally concern gamers, no?

I mean, how many other movements could we dismiss because their concerns are particular? "Throat cancer charity? Why not all cancer?" GG's not out to save journalism of every field.

This probably isn't your intention, but having run into this criticism before it's basically 'it's just games'. I mean, I don't get why people are actually making a case that gamers shouldn't care that much about games journalism. Have a go at demanding why sports fans care about sports controversies and politics.

If anything, I'd say this is a matter of personal preference. It'd hard to do a review of "Let's Be Cops", for instance, without discussing the context of what was going on at the time the movie hit theaters. That's a mileage may vary kind of thing.

Agreed.

Fair points here. I certainly have problems with these items. Angry Joe has also gone on about these issues in the past. The thing is, if this was brought up, instead of some of the stupid shit your cause does in fact go after, they would easily get more people on board with them.

Again, GG's main goals are not specifically my own.

And again, these two issues aren't just issues with Video Game Journalists. Look at the White House Correspondence Club Dinner (or whatever the hell it's called) for a similar circle jerk between the media and the people they're supposed to be covering.

Also again, I don't know where this argument is going. A movement of gamers should cover every field of journalism because 'it's just games'?

But let's have fun with that image; GamerGate working to oust all manner of journalistic fuckery. Would the narrative then be a bunch of basement boys with delusions of grandeur throwing rocks at giants? It's an uphill battle as it is in the public eye getting talked down to by Polygon.

Again, I can understand that. That would actually make for an interesting topic of conversation. It's not something I fully understand, but that would be a compelling story. Much more than someone posting concerns about how a cause is going, followed by the cause proving her right less than an hour later.

I forgot to reply your post above where you tied GG to doxxing and threatening behavior. GG doesn't condone this and actively vilifies and roots out the third party trolling everyone. We're not 'proving her right'.

Comedy of the Year, however, would have been me trying to review it. It probably would have been along the lines of "See last year's review. Also, the Military should probably go through other means to find new recruits."

Funny thing is, this seems like the first time in a while last years review would not be swappable. I am so down for AW.

This is one that I haven't seen in more mainstream outlets, but I can see that as being an issue. Something else specific that GG could get behind, if it didn't com off as bitching about "SJWs."

I explain in the first few pages about why the SJW/extreme feminist connections to this are important in the grand scheme of things. I can dip deeper into that if you wish. Interesting shit.

I understand your sentiment, but let's be honest. The point of reviews, be it movie, music, or games, is ultimately to shill the product they are reviewing. Sometimes, the political agendas help shape that shilling.

I disagree, but non-aggressively. It's cool.

On one hand, I like the idea. On the other, this could start boxing out smaller developers further as this could very easily become financially unfeasible.

Consider that smaller devs that self publish on the big three consoles are already mandated to provide trial/demos of their games. And historically, smaller teams are much more likely to offer demos and beta runs to their supporters and public game events. This is something I believe they're already primed for.

But thank you on answering my questions. At least you are a bit more intellectually honest than many of the folks who attach themselves to your cause.

I dare not argue with this. And I thank you for simply not being Rogerer.

However, when Ms. Sarkeesan starts throwing out frivolous lawsuit after frivolous lawsuit attacking games, then talk to me about how she's Jack Thompson.

The narrative's the same, she's just smarter about it. She totally Jackie Thompson.

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 04:36 AM

Kalyx triaD

10-30-2014, 04:48 AM

Anita wouldn't be the person I'd ask about the journalism/feminist academia angle as she's not a part of DIGRA (though I believe she is with Silver String Media). Though it was interesting that that was the only time she flustered in an otherwise bright eyed interview. This is also the first time any mainstream setting asked about that, so kudos to... Steven Colbert (yet again showing more clout than mainstream news).

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 06:30 AM

Destor

10-30-2014, 06:43 AM

And in this moment you just aligned with a terrorist organization. well done people will be respecting you soon enough.

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 07:00 AM

Corporate shitheads can be a terrorist organization too. Erin Pizzey herself even said feminists movement are also terror groups. Go figure.

drave

10-30-2014, 07:02 AM

road doggy dogg

10-30-2014, 08:31 AM

good grief

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 08:47 AM

And in this moment you just aligned with a terrorist organization. well done people will be respecting you soon enough.

http://blog.wtfconcept.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/north-korean-cartman.jpg

road doggy dogg

10-30-2014, 08:50 AM

In contrast to all the coherent arguments that Kalyx makes (even though I don't agree with a lot of them), Raven Reaper goes and shows why this movement will never be taken seriously.

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 08:52 AM

Neither will the stupid journalists who really love to disenfranchise every game with their shitty ass personal agendas.

Heisenberg

10-30-2014, 08:52 AM

I don't see this storyline going anywhere, what are they going to do to counter anything, play more video games?

http://www.wwe.com/f/styles/superstar_bio/public/talent/bio/2012/04/brock_bio.png

drave

10-30-2014, 08:57 AM

Ruien

10-30-2014, 08:57 AM

I always knew video games and video game reviews were serious business.

drave

10-30-2014, 08:58 AM

Let's not forget the ethics Ruien, don't lose track of the main point!!! :|

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 09:02 AM

I sincerely hope you say that in jest. He made a parody of the entire movement on both sides :|

Then again, after reading your other multiple replies as well as actually believing Anonymous gives two shits, I can tell you are very serious.

True enough, at the end of the day, I'm just a fucking gamer who loves playing games despite the stupid journalism reviews that have the I.Q. logic of McIntosh, Sarkessian, Brianna Wu and the rest of the stupid Anti-GamerGate shitheads.

And even if they wanna wail, whine, moan and complain all they want of how they enjoy games that are considered anti-SJW feminism, sexism or whatever, NOTHING will keep us down..

As Capt. Kirrahe from Mass effect would say, "WE WILL HOLD THE LINE!!"

Ruien

10-30-2014, 09:03 AM

I can just see how this goes down. Lady A, "If I fuck you you have to write a serious businesses review for me game" and Guy A "Hell ya, a game review for you on my cock is worth it but since this is a game review and it's serious business you need to swallow" and then Lady A "Done deal."

2 months lady Nerd A"What the fuck! This game had a awesome review but it is complete shit!" And Nerd B "I am going to murder you Lady A for using your pussy to get you money!" With Nerd C "Let's not forget about the ethics here."

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 09:04 AM

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 09:06 AM

I can just see how this goes down. Lady A, "If I fuck you you have to write a serious businesses review for me game" and Guy A "Hell ya, a game review for you on my cock is worth it but since this is a game review and it's serious business you need to swallow" and then Lady A "Done deal."

2 months lady Nerd A"What the fuck! This game had a awesome review but it is complete shit!" And Nerd B "I am going to murder you Lady A for using your pussy to get you money!" With Nerd C "Let's not forget about the ethics here."

http://s.quickmeme.com/img/bc/bc223ddcd4fc72440a525e686c619c03f315e363db9a69df2102acc819bf3d9c.jpg

Heisenberg

10-30-2014, 09:07 AM

who needs game reviews when everything has a beta/alpha/supersmash invite system in place?

We need to think about all the starving people on the streets, come on people

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 09:10 AM

who needs game reviews when everything has a beta/alpha/supersmash invite system in place?

We need to think about all the starving people on the streets, come on people

Yes, thank you.. There are bigger issues than just being harrassed online and whatnot. It's not armageddon of the genders.

drave

10-30-2014, 09:11 AM

True enough, at the end of the day, I'm just a fucking gamer who loves playing games despite the stupid journalism reviews that have the I.Q. logic of McIntosh, Sarkessian, Brianna Wu and the rest of the stupid Anti-GamerGate shitheads.

And even if they wanna wail, whine, moan and complain all they want of how they enjoy games that are considered anti-SJW feminism, sexism or whatever, NOTHING will keep us down..

As Capt. Kirrahe from Mass effect would say, "WE WILL HOLD THE LINE!!"

I enjoy all games as well. Finished my first game at 4 years old (NES - Trojan). Still, the industry has grown to such a level that issues like this DO exist and at some point WILL be addressed.

The real shitter here is the way you and others react make the gaming community look like shitheads. They can all have their opinion, as their issues are actual issues. However, I chose to read the content and move along. People reacting in trollish ways will not get either side anything, nothing at all.

If you truly want to make a difference, as you say you are passionate, stop being such a child about things and actually build a debate/argument to counter the valid points that are being raised. That is what will help gain traction, not "SHUT HER THE FUCK UP WITH DUCT TAPE".

road doggy dogg

10-30-2014, 09:26 AM

I still kinda just view this whole mess in the same light as the type of people who bitch about Fox News (or CNN, or whatever) being terrible then making no effort to find better alternative news sources to get proper coverage. If Polygon or Kotaku or IGN or whatever are so bad, why continue to patronize their sites and give them hits? Why not find a blogger who is similar-minded to you and read their reviews?

For example, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of his rationale but I really enjoy reading Tom Chick's reviews of games. He gets a lot of flak because MetaCritic includes his scores (which are on a subjective 5-star system) into their aggregate, but I find his reviews perfectly lay out his thoughts and feelings on the games. For example, he gave The Last of Us 3 out of 5 stars, citing its awful gameplay but praising the storytelling and character elements of the game. I loved TLoU but totally understand his viewpoint and can respect his opinion. Yet, people see a "60%" score and lose their goddamn minds because NUMBERS!!!!! without reading the review. It's no different from all the stupid fanboys on IGN who go apeshit if the PS3 version of a game gets 8.4 while the 360 version gets an 8.5. At the end of the day it's a goddamn stupid number, when in essence the two reviews are probably almost identical.

This kind of thing happens all the time. I'm guilty of it too kinda. If I'm looking at a list of reviews for a game that is universally getting 8.5/10 or 9/10 ratings and there's an outlier that shows 5/10 or 6/10, obviously you're more drawn to that review. A lot of times it's just crappy clickbait from some hack, but I tend to read those reviews more thoroughly than one that rates a game 9/10 and includes a few bullet points of things they liked about the game when it's clear they only put maybe 8 hours into it.

As per usual I'm going way off on tangents BUTTTTTTT my overall message is it should be on smarter consumers to interpret the information and opinions that are presented to them. I still can't wrap my brain around how someone is so personally slighted or affronted by a game being favorably reviewed unjustly by sites that "they" (the supposed "TRUE GAMERS") obviously hold very little regard for. It's like getting pissed off that a shitty movie won the Best Picture Oscar then making a shitload of tweets stating how much you think the Oscars are bullshit. Why does it bother you so much? Fucking hipsters.

I get the larger implications and slippery slope effect of being apathetic towards the "larger" review sites, but going on some crusade for journalistic integrity seems awfully misguided when the best ammunition these clowns have is harassing those who they don't agree with.

whatever I need another damn coffee

Shisen Kopf

10-30-2014, 09:27 AM

I always knew video games and video game reviews were serious business.

Video game reviews are super serious business. I remember a few years ago when one of those Sonic games got a 5.5/10 by some reviewer. I'm sure it was a female reviewer too. Like she would know anything about video games. Go review kitchen appliances or cleaning products lady. That game was clearly 6.1/10. Silly bitch!

drave

10-30-2014, 09:29 AM

Quite the perfect parallel, really (Re: RDD)

drave

10-30-2014, 09:30 AM

Video game reviews are super serious business. I remember a few years ago when one of those Sonic games got a 5.5/10 by some reviewer. I'm sure it was a female reviewer too. Like she would know anything about video games. Go review kitchen appliances or cleaning products lady. That game was clearly 6.1/10. Silly bitch!

Clearly wasn't a USA#1 Citizen either.

Shisen Kopf

10-30-2014, 09:32 AM

I still kinda just view this whole mess in the same light as the type of people who bitch about Fox News (or CNN, or whatever) being terrible then making no effort to find better alternative news sources to get proper coverage. If Polygon or Kotaku or IGN or whatever are so bad, why continue to patronize their sites and give them hits? Why not find a blogger who is similar-minded to you and read their reviews?

For example, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of his rationale but I really enjoy reading Tom Chick's reviews of games. He gets a lot of flak because MetaCritic includes his scores (which are on a subjective 5-star system) into their aggregate, but I find his reviews perfectly lay out his thoughts and feelings on the games. For example, he gave The Last of Us 3 out of 5 stars, citing its awful gameplay but praising the storytelling and character elements of the game. I loved TLoU but totally understand his viewpoint and can respect his opinion. Yet, people see a "60%" score and lose their goddamn minds because NUMBERS!!!!! without reading the review. It's no different from all the stupid fanboys on IGN who go apeshit if the PS3 version of a game gets 8.4 while the 360 version gets an 8.5. At the end of the day it's a goddamn stupid number, when in essence the two reviews are probably almost identical.

This kind of thing happens all the time. I'm guilty of it too kinda. If I'm looking at a list of reviews for a game that is universally getting 8.5/10 or 9/10 ratings and there's an outlier that shows 5/10 or 6/10, obviously you're more drawn to that review. A lot of times it's just crappy clickbait from some hack, but I tend to read those reviews more thoroughly than one that rates a game 9/10 and includes a few bullet points of things they liked about the game when it's clear they only put maybe 8 hours into it.

As per usual I'm going way off on tangents BUTTTTTTT my overall message is it should be on smarter consumers to interpret the information and opinions that are presented to them. I still can't wrap my brain around how someone is so personally slighted or affronted by a game being favorably reviewed unjustly by sites that "they" (the supposed "TRUE GAMERS") obviously hold very little regard for. It's like getting pissed off that a shitty movie won the Best Picture Oscar then making a shitload of tweets stating how much you think the Oscars are bullshit. Why does it bother you so much? Fucking hipsters.

I get the larger implications and slippery slope effect of being apathetic towards the "larger" review sites, but going on some crusade for journalistic integrity seems awfully misguided when the best ammunition these clowns have is harassing those who they don't agree with.

whatever I need another damn coffee

I give this post an 8.4. Now if you were to post this at rajah it would only be an 8.1

Shisen Kopf

10-30-2014, 09:33 AM

Clearly wasn't a USA#1 Citizen either.

Yeah, I think she was from the country called Europe. Whatever she's not USA#1 so who cares.

road doggy dogg

10-30-2014, 09:33 AM

Ryan Clark gave it an 8.6 you fucking misogynist

Wehttam

10-30-2014, 09:48 AM

Basically, if you're born with a penis, you already have an invisible toxic masculinity inside you.. So, yeah, it's like Anita's shaming men for being masculine in their behavior.

The solution then is you just either cut off your dick and change sex or you might as well be born with a vagina insread...this is some of the dumbest shit i ever read

Ruien

10-30-2014, 12:29 PM

I give this post an 8.4. Now if you were to post this at rajah it would only be an 8.1

Rajah has no idea that this is serious business!

Nark Order

10-30-2014, 01:19 PM

ECG, I hate that you are in this thread in this forum. Seems so odd. God, I hate it. Have you ever been in the video game forum before? This is so weird. What the fuck. I'm getting the hell out of here.

Nark Order

10-30-2014, 01:20 PM

It's like you just smelled an argument in the air and followed the scent.

Nark Order

10-30-2014, 01:25 PM

I don't really disagree with most of what you are saying. I just hate that you're here. It is throwing off the balance of the forum. Like, it's stressing me out.

El Capitano Gatisto

10-30-2014, 01:39 PM

What are you on about? Have you ever posted in this forum before?

Fignuts

10-30-2014, 02:03 PM

Yeah, when was the last time either of you discussed Street Fighter 4 frame data with me and Kalyx?

Also, Raven Reaper approaching Damninator levels of meme/youtube posting in this thread.

Heisenberg

10-30-2014, 02:10 PM

Let's just drop this thing altogether, men don't let women taint over our video games. Let's turn our heels and go play video games away from all the bs.

Champions, how did blowing a cartridge evolve into letting women have a say in gaming and get threatened for it?

I urge you Champions to go home to your families and hug them tight, if you are not with a family then call an old tag partner up and tell him/her that you love them.

Nark Order

10-30-2014, 02:11 PM

I don't know. It just seems wrong for you to be here. Feel like the universe is crumbling,

Kalyx triaD

10-30-2014, 02:15 PM

EGC's totally boss with Dictator.

Not at all cool with Anon getting into this. The fucking last thing we need are vigilantes. Everything we unearthed was done with basic searching and following paper and social trails. Everything was legal. I can't imagine how Anon can help.

The Rogerer

10-30-2014, 02:41 PM

Were you there Kalyx. Did you sign the Constitution of Gamergate. Because if not will you stop the we shite.

Oh guess what, anonymous was already gamergate. Even if they weren't, they're indistinguishable. Sorry, "you're" indistinguishable.

drave

10-30-2014, 03:29 PM

EGC's totally boss with Dictator.

Not at all cool with Anon getting into this. The fucking last thing we need are vigilantes. Everything we unearthed was done with basic searching and following paper and social trails. Everything was legal. I can't imagine how Anon can help.

Anon has zero legit interest in this scenario. Please don't believe stupid links from stupid posts.

The "movement" was already infected with vigilantes anyway, if what most pro-GG people say in relation to the doxxing and other poo flinging.

drave

10-30-2014, 03:29 PM

Oh guess what, anonymous was already gamergate. Even if they weren't, they're indistinguishable. Sorry, "you're" indistinguishable.

Truth.

Vastardikai

10-30-2014, 03:34 PM

Anon has zero legit interest in this scenario. Please don't believe stupid links from stupid posts.

The "movement" was already infected with vigilantes anyway, if what most pro-GG people say in relation to the doxxing and other poo flinging.

Yeah, that ship long ago sailed. That'd be like a lobbyist being against money in politics.

Kalyx triaD

10-30-2014, 03:35 PM

The "movement" was already infected with vigilantes anyway, if what most pro-GG people say in relation to the doxxing and other poo flinging.

After watching the vid, their stance is interesting.

drave

10-30-2014, 03:47 PM

It isn't the stance I was trying to point out to you.

Do you truly believe an organization such as Anonymous would bother with something so small-scale? /rhetorical

Kalyx triaD

10-30-2014, 03:52 PM

They looked into it, so I would say they bothered.

drave

10-30-2014, 04:01 PM

Silly ninny....

The person that made the video looked into it. All info discussed is public info and easily attainable. Seriously, they couldn't care less.

Kalyx triaD

10-30-2014, 04:10 PM

The person that made the video looked into it. All info discussed is public info and easily attainable. Seriously, they couldn't care less.

I thought Anon speaks amongst themselves before releasing such videos, but if you're certain it was just that one guy I suppose I can't disclaim that.

It's interesting that you equate them caring with doing something other than looking up public info. I would say that's them giving a damn.

Curious; what do you think would be the actions of them bothering with the issue?

drave

10-30-2014, 04:45 PM

If they were to ever become involved, public info (or info already known to this point) wouldn't even be worth their time.

Sites would be shut down(for starters), at their direction/discretion. I doubt they would "doxx" anyone in this instance, as it is such a petty issue and doesn't involve governments/oppressive regimes actually harming anyone. Where they would move beyond that is questionable simply due to the silly nature of this entire event.

They are not small scale individuals.

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 07:12 PM

Kalyx triaD

10-30-2014, 07:21 PM

I don't see how shutting down a site would be a good call for the movement. I don't think shutting down a site is their go to move, I've mostly seen that they subvert attempts to hide information. I would call that their 'signature move'.

TotalBiscuits interview with Stephen Totilo was very good and confirmed a lot of my views on him as an editor and person. It also helped me consider a lot of my views (as this thread as).

If anything this movement really galvanized my own beef with the game industry and many times either here or other places did people seem more receptive to my own issues than GG's issues (an SJW gamer also agreed with my concerns that weren't lockstep with GG).

Not sure where to go with that as these are things people pointed out for years and were dismissed - only to now be the 'real issues' GG should be focused on. Kinda heart warming, actually.

Kalyx triaD

10-30-2014, 07:23 PM

I think this explains why journalism ethics didn't quite fit the bill for her..

I've long given up on bringing this point up with people. White Knights will have none of it. Feminists don't care. Doesn't exist as far as media is concerned.

I'm at a place where this information is something to levied against her at some other time, not as a GamerGate thing.

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 07:49 PM

I've long given up on bringing this point up with people. White Knights will have none of it. Feminists don't care. Doesn't exist as far as media is concerned.

I'm at a place where this information is something to levied against her at some other time, not as a GamerGate thing.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/1156c93b59.jpg

The Rogerer

10-30-2014, 07:57 PM

I think this explains why journalism ethics didn't quite fit the bill for her..You're not a real gamer.

Someone gave you a dualshock but you put it up your arse

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 08:27 PM

Oh really. Clearly, you haven't seen my XBOX 360 console and collections that are filling the CD containers like mushrooms. Come see my house some time and we'll play! As for PC games, here's my screenshot as proof of it.

http://thumbnails109.imagebam.com/36124/199fdf361231131.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/199fdf361231131)

road doggy dogg

10-30-2014, 08:32 PM

Anita Sarkeesian is a better gamer than you are

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 08:33 PM

Yes, she is and she enjoys killing those strippers in the Hitman Absolution game which in reality, I did the opposite of her playthrough. Hahaha..

As for online gaming: I have an account on this site: http://assaultfire.ph/ I wanna frag your ass. Sign up, maggot.

If Anita is such a good gamer, I challenge HER TO MOOOORTALLL KOMBBAAAT!!!

drave

10-30-2014, 08:51 PM

I don't see how shutting down a site would be a good call for the movement. I don't think shutting down a site is their go to move, I've mostly seen that they subvert attempts to hide information. I would call that their 'signature move'.

Exactly, it wouldn't. They don't care enough to bother with it. Shutting down a site is not just "shutting down a site" when that group does it. Who said it was their go to? It is, in nearly all cases, only the beginning.

From my standpoint, there is nothing else to be said about this topic. I hope only that one day, people can wear big boy pants and not be so over-reactive to the opinions of others, especially in such a petty arena.

drave

10-30-2014, 08:51 PM

Anita Sarkeesian is a better gamer than you are

QFT

Raven Reaper

10-30-2014, 10:20 PM

Like I said, I challenge Anita to Mortal Kombat Tournament, Tekken, DOA, or better yet, WWE HELL IN A CELL 2K15!!!! I'm gonna go Dean Ambrose on her sexist ass!

Fignuts

10-30-2014, 10:23 PM

lord god

Raven Reaper

10-31-2014, 12:18 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1Fzby-CIAAAR6i.jpg

Spot the difference.

road doggy dogg

10-31-2014, 12:29 AM

I'd tell you to stop posting a bunch of rubbish propaganda, but propaganda typically tends to be persuasive in illustrating a point

Kalyx triaD

10-31-2014, 12:52 AM

That seemed pretty clear. And you can go through both their twitter posts and see a clear difference in tone.

Ruien

10-31-2014, 08:29 AM

Does anyone blame Anita for not wanting to discuss things with people like Raven Reaper.

Heisenberg

10-31-2014, 09:19 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1Fzby-CIAAAR6i.jpg

Spot the difference.

The fact that someone took the time to make this storyline poster troubles me.

I think you're forgetting the fact that some of us here are still trying to figure out why it's ok to even threaten women over something like video games, a medium for fun.

It's a well known fact that sometimes women say things that they don't mean. Don't go to bed angry with them, maybe it's their time of the month. Anita just needs a man, her last one betrayed her in a video game perhaps. Maybe she got buried hard in an online game. Maybe she lost her good D. Find her the good D and the negativity will subside, you'll be able to resume playing w/e game you desire until your master deems necessary to tell you otherwise.

The Rogerer

10-31-2014, 11:11 AM

That's nice of her to adopt Lingo but she's no Madonna.

Kalyx triaD

10-31-2014, 01:02 PM

Does anyone blame Anita for not wanting to discuss things with people like Raven Reaper.

She doesn't have debates with anyone. No matter which side you're on her avoidance of any kind of rebuttal after two years is an issue. There's been very good rebuttals she or the gaming press refuses to address. Consider an Atheist or Christian refusing to engage challenges on YouTube or Twitter - they'd be discarded.

Ruien

10-31-2014, 01:34 PM

I think you missed the joke......

Kalyx triaD

10-31-2014, 01:39 PM

The joke was a poke at Raven, what you touched on a serious issue about her.

Ruien

10-31-2014, 01:54 PM

This will make it completely unfunny but let me explain this for you. Raven, who we have all seen in this thread is not the best person to discuss anything with, made a post about how terrible Anita is for not doing a discussion. Now, if Raven came up to you and wanted to discuss this topic would you want to? Why should she? Hence, it is ironic Raven is posting that picture.

Or we can just get back to serious business video game reviews. Sorry for getting off topic. Once, this video game called Tomba received a rating of 8 on game informer! Those pricks, I bought the game and wasted my allowance money because it was so terrible. That guy needs to be fired for doing such a horrible, serious business, video game review!

Ruien

10-31-2014, 01:55 PM

That person was probably a female too because they can't write serious business reviews for anything!

Kalyx triaD

10-31-2014, 01:59 PM

This will make it completely unfunny but let me explain this for you. Raven, who we have all seen in this thread is not the best person to discuss anything with, made a post about how terrible Anita is for not doing a discussion. Now, if Raven came up to you and wanted to discuss this topic would you want to? Why should she? Hence, it is ironic Raven is posting that picture.

Now it's unfunny? To each his own, I guess.

Or we can just get back to serious business video game reviews. Sorry for getting off topic. Once, this video game called Tomba received a rating of 8 on game informer! Those pricks, I bought the game and wasted my allowance money because it was so terrible. That guy needs to be fired for doing such a horrible, serious business, video game review!

Why are you bringing up review scores? I personally don't care for them and GG isn't concerned with review scores either.

That person was probably a female too because they can't write serious business reviews for anything!

Women are perfectly capable of writing game reviews, what are you on about?

Kalyx triaD

10-31-2014, 02:01 PM

I've written quite a bit about this subject here and I'm trying to figure out why you're bringing up review scores and women writing them as some kind of 'gotcha'. You're the first guy to bring that up in here.

Ruien

10-31-2014, 02:02 PM

You fail to see this as serious business. I am sorry.

The Rogerer

10-31-2014, 02:19 PM

ANITA DOES NOT ADOPT LINGO

FACT

road doggy dogg

10-31-2014, 02:26 PM

ughhhhhhhhh

The Rogerer

10-31-2014, 02:27 PM

FACT NUMBER 1 ANITA DISCUSSES
FACT NUMBER 2 ANITA DOESN'T DISCUSS

DOES ANITA ADOPT LINGO?

THE EXCEPTION PROVES THE RULE

FACT

drave

10-31-2014, 03:10 PM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Getting tired of well off, privileged white people talking about how scared they are of internet trolls. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GamerGate?src=hash">#GamerGate</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/DangerScale?src=hash">#DangerScale</a></p>— Jean Kalyx (@Kalyx_triaD) <a href="https://twitter.com/Kalyx_triaD/status/528235994752245760">October 31, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Really?

road doggy dogg

10-31-2014, 03:13 PM

lmao

The Rogerer

10-31-2014, 03:13 PM

Says a big fucking dweeb who cares about the most meaningless stuff in a way that makes no sense.

Also a male ie the most privileged position in humanity.

The Rogerer

10-31-2014, 03:14 PM

Haha CONVINCE OUR EBONIES

Why don't you convince your ebonies how ethics in games journalism matters

The Rogerer

10-31-2014, 03:15 PM

'YOUR' ebonies?

Your twitter is fucking hilarious.

The Rogerer

10-31-2014, 03:53 PM

Did you triangulate that relativism?

Sounds like you like subjectivity.

Ultra Mantis

10-31-2014, 07:16 PM

Those privileged white video games people should just take those rape and murder threats like men.

Because fuck women, right? RIGHT!?

Kalyx triaD

10-31-2014, 07:54 PM

Those privileged white video games people should just take those rape and murder threats like men.

Because fuck women, right? RIGHT!?

I didn't mention women.

There's a trend of people speaking about how dangerous their lives are (from coffee shops, Nintendo stores, and cyber cafes) and really weaponizing the public response to harassment and death threats and such. Law enforcement makes the distinction between credible death threats and trolling for a reason. It's also why we didn't hear about the GDC bomb threat until six months later. Brianna Wu's actions sense her tweeting of death threats would go against what officials would tell her to do in the case of credible death threats.

After some time with no deaths, arrests, or so much as a black eye dealt to either side and law enforcement not confirming any credible threat to anybody - the weaponizing of victimhood will weaken the validity of harassment and threats. Cry wolf and all that.

More to my tweet; the people speaking most about how scared they are (so scared they tweet from bars with their buddies), are people who live otherwise safe lives and would be least likely to encounter actual danger. So yeah, take death threat trolls like a man/woman. Your issue with my post is the sort of thing Rhiannon would have appreciated, but only now are some of you concerned about harassment.

Kalyx triaD

10-31-2014, 07:55 PM

Also thanks for checking out my Twitter. I also has a blog and YouTube channel.

The Rogerer

10-31-2014, 09:09 PM

The sort of thing Rhiannon would have appreciated is my dick

Kalyx, Rhiannon is #NOTYOURSHIELD. oops.

Ultra Mantis

10-31-2014, 09:27 PM

I didn't mention women.

There's a trend of people speaking about how dangerous their lives are (from coffee shops, Nintendo stores, and cyber cafes) and really weaponizing the public response to harassment and death threats and such. Law enforcement makes the distinction between credible death threats and trolling for a reason. It's also why we didn't hear about the GDC bomb threat until six months later. Brianna Wu's actions sense her tweeting of death threats would go against what officials would tell her to do in the case of credible death threats.

After some time with no deaths, arrests, or so much as a black eye dealt to either side and law enforcement not confirming any credible threat to anybody - the weaponizing of victimhood will weaken the validity of harassment and threats. Cry wolf and all that.

More to my tweet; the people speaking most about how scared they are (so scared they tweet from bars with their buddies), are people who live otherwise safe lives and would be least likely to encounter actual danger. So yeah, take death threat trolls like a man/woman. Your issue with my post is the sort of thing Rhiannon would have appreciated, but only now are some of you concerned about harassment.

My issue with your post is that you have an issue with people really not enjoying receiving abusive and threatening messages via the internet. How do you measure danger if somebody can easily give away details of your personal life, including the address of your family home, to the entire internet, which as I'm sure you're aware does contain some very dangerous and sick individuals. Even if it is "just" trolling, you have to consider the whole damaging aspect of people saying such horrible shit to you on a daily basis. How exactly SHOULD you deal with a death threat? Talk me through the protocol.

ron the dial

10-31-2014, 09:41 PM

just don't be a pussy, obviously.

Bad News Gertner

10-31-2014, 09:46 PM

lol fags

Kalyx triaD

10-31-2014, 10:39 PM

My issue with your post is that you have an issue with people really not enjoying receiving abusive and threatening messages via the internet.

That is not my stance, I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I don't think people should like it, but stopping the world over it is overblown. There are degrees.

How do you measure danger if somebody can easily give away details of your personal life, including the address of your family home, to the entire internet, which as I'm sure you're aware does contain some very dangerous and sick individuals.

I understand how doxxing is very threatening, but consider the difference between Quinn being doxxed and Nero having a syringe sent to his house. One person used the issue to spread her name around and ignored proper channels to deal with that, the other person took it seriously and refused to publicize it.

One side is making this a game, and it's the side who law enforcement deemed safe. Brianna Wu left her home of her own volition.

Even if it is "just" trolling, you have to consider the whole damaging aspect of people saying such horrible shit to you on a daily basis. How exactly SHOULD you deal with a death threat? Talk me through the protocol.

Contact the FBI, do not publicize it, and definitely don't use it as a reason to spread political agendas.

SlickyTrickyDamon

11-01-2014, 06:36 AM

The Rogerer

11-01-2014, 06:52 AM

That is not my stance, I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I don't think people should like it, but stopping the world over it is overblown. There are degrees.

I understand how doxxing is very threatening, but consider the difference between Quinn being doxxed and Nero having a syringe sent to his house. One person used the issue to spread her name around and ignored proper channels to deal with that, the other person took it seriously and refused to publicize it.

One side is making this a game, and it's the side who law enforcement deemed safe. Brianna Wu left her home of her own volition.

Contact the FBI, do not publicize it, and definitely don't use it as a reason to spread political agendas.Stop victim blaming.

You're not talking about ethics in games journalism. Just how some women are doing things wrong and not thinking about things triangularly.

Inadequacy

11-01-2014, 01:14 PM

That is not my stance, I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I don't think people should like it, but stopping the world over it is overblown. There are degrees.

I understand how doxxing is very threatening, but consider the difference between Quinn being doxxed and Nero having a syringe sent to his house. One person used the issue to spread her name around and ignored proper channels to deal with that, the other person took it seriously and refused to publicize it.

One side is making this a game, and it's the side who law enforcement deemed safe. Brianna Wu left her home of her own volition.

Contact the FBI, do not publicize it, and definitely don't use it as a reason to spread political agendas.

Kalyx I've had to read countless articles about women being threatened on the internet and exactly how ineffective/uncaring the authorities can be about it. I live in a province where a young girls suicide due to online bullying/harassment led to the formation of a new police unit specifically for dealing with online harassment. A unit which did basically nothing when a local woman tried to report the harassment she was receiving from her ex-boyfriend. They wouldn't even do anything when she knew who the person was, can you imagine the authorities doing very much when the harassers are anonymous?

I guess my point is it's incredibly stupid to say there is a "proper" way to deal with these things and maybe just a little bit ridiculous to suggest that way is going through the police. Maybe publicizing these things and getting the support of the general public to shame the people who would do these IS a reasonable thing to do.

Here's the article from my local alt-weekly, there are hundreds more just like it from other cities.

http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/the-always-on-stalker/Content?oid=4425956

road doggy dogg

11-01-2014, 01:25 PM

I think Kalyx is more concerned with the third part of his final sentence than the actual safety and well-being of the victims.

Kalyx triaD

11-01-2014, 02:35 PM

Yeah I always take the side of a pussy who won't show his face when he is saying something and talks via a computer voice.

Not.

Fair enough.

Would you like that footage clean without commentary?

Kalyx triaD

11-01-2014, 02:38 PM

I think Kalyx is more concerned with the third part of his final sentence than the actual safety and well-being of the victims.

I don't want anybody hurt, and people need to be able to say what I said without fear of somebody saying they don't care. I spent several pages of this thread condemning threats, harassment, and doxxing. Obviously I'm not fine with these things.

Kalyx triaD

11-01-2014, 04:19 PM

I live in a province where a young girls suicide due to online bullying/harassment led to the formation of a new police unit specifically for dealing with online harassment. A unit which did basically nothing when a local woman tried to report the harassment she was receiving from her ex-boyfriend. They wouldn't even do anything when she knew who the person was, can you imagine the authorities doing very much when the harassers are anonymous?

Online harassment is a tricky thing to nail down. Many social sites continually patch in systems for users to control their privacy and it doesn't seem to stop a creep from pulling shit. It's a new-ish area for law enforcement to work in and I sympathize that what they do and what a service does is very complicated. It goes to a larger issue and we have to wonder what would we have services and law enforcement do about this?

I had this thought that one day everybody; law enforcement, service users, sites, people of all religions and political creeds will finally agree on what I've been saying during this GG stuff that the ultimate issue are trolls and their anonymity. That's what it all comes down to. We're either gonna see expanded powers to the justice department regarding IP addresses and the such, or the end of internet anonymity altogether. At this point I'm fine with either, since how it's working now doesn't seem to satisfy people.

The Rogerer

11-01-2014, 04:36 PM

Are you really fine with the end of internet anonymity?

Bad News Gertner

11-02-2014, 10:56 AM

I have a question. Does Gamergate hate women because having sex without rape is just a lost cause for all of you?

Destor

11-02-2014, 11:32 AM

I have a question. Does Gamergate hate women because having sex without rape is just a lost cause for all of you?
Follow up question: Do you feel like you'd have a better understanding of women if you took games less seriously?

Poit

11-02-2014, 12:05 PM

I got busy with work & other stuff and wandered away. I get back, and this thread is 10 pages long. This... is going to take a while.

Swiss Ultimate

11-02-2014, 06:45 PM

Kalyx wins this thread.

The Rogerer

11-02-2014, 06:59 PM

By Queensbury rules yes. He certainly embedded the most links, and he made many modest proposals rationally and without using dirty words. He gets the debating club gold star. By he I mean they, sorry.

Swiss Ultimate

11-02-2014, 11:31 PM

No, people asked questions, he calmly explained the answers. Then those people proceeded to promptly ignore everything he said in favor of making uninformed arguments.

Kalyx clearly is the victor here. He even made TheRogerer freak out and I thought that was something only I could do.

Swiss Ultimate

11-02-2014, 11:38 PM

I also love the part where people try to pass themselves off as the "authority" on Anonymous.

I leave you with this:
<iframe width="854" height="510" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/SKXy3hlhIZ4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RoXer

11-03-2014, 12:31 AM

#CatGate: The Search for Ethics in Cat Journalism (http://www.somethingawful.com/news/gamergate-with-cats/)

Thursday, Oct 30, 2014 by A True Cat Fan (http://www.somethingawful.com/author/72/)

http://i.somethingawful.com/u/bobservo/catgate/CatGateSpot2.jpg

It wasn't long ago that cat appreciation was reserved solely for True Cat Fans. Yet, in the past few years, Deformed Cat Advocates-or DFAs-have imposed their will on the cat enthusiast community, and their agenda is clear: Only images of cats with adorable birth defects will do. Superimpose "cute" sayings in Impact font if you must, but let's not ignore the able-bodied cats that got us to where we are today. Remember Socks? The mid-to-late nineties almost feel like they were decades ago.

Just yesterday, an irritating co-worker of mine-let's call her "Denise," though her name is actually "Sherri"-posted an image of this "Grumpy Cat" character to my Facebook wall, which included the text "I'm only in a bad mood on every day that ends in a Y." Well, I wasn't about to let this Fake Cat Lover off the hook. I immediately grabbed one of the many copies of my Morris scrapbook-of course you know him as the famous 9 Lives mascot-and headed over to Denise's desk to give her a piece of my mind. Really, what right did she have to even dabble in cat enthusiasm? Did she spend hours meticulously clipping images of Morris out of Redbooks stolen from the library? Did she meet Morris in person at the ribbon-cutting of a drive-thru oil change in 1987? Was she one of the five people permitted to make a death mask upon Morris' passing in 1993?

I shouldn't have to tell you the answers to these questions. Unfortunately, this little altercation ended with a mandatory visit to our HR rep, who just happened to be Denise, so I didn't have to go far. She said I should take my lunch break early to go "cool off," so I did exactly that, and grabbed the latest issue of Cat Fancy from my desk on the way out. Unfortunately, this did nothing to quell my sour mood. I immediately flipped to the reviews section, because I must be a glutton for punishment. Before me sat the least objective analyses of cat-focused products my poor eyes had ever seen. In his evaluation of Friskies Party Mix Crunch Original Cat Treats, this "Steve Anderson" person had the gall to say, and I quote, "My little guy didn't want any more after a few servings, but obviously, results may vary with your particular cat."

http://i.somethingawful.com/u/bobservo/catgate/CatGateSpot1.jpg

Um, excuse me? Steve, you may want to reach out to the Cracker Jack company about the state of your degree, because really-is this what passes for cat journalism these days? Let's keep these personal biases out of product evaluations. I'll have you know I've raised six generations of cats on Friskies, and, outside of the kidney disorders the Friskies hotline assured me were common for most kittens, they've never steered me wrong. I can't even imagine the damage you've done to the Friskies brand with your one-sided, agenda-driven hooey. Is Mr. Anderson just a puppet of the Fancy Feast company, whose nameless white cat mascot is just a shameless imitation of the timeless Morris? I haven't been given any convincing reasons to believe this wasn't a shameful breach of ethics that will forever taint Cat Fancy in my eyes. But what I saw next was simply beyond belief. I had to push aside half of my Carl's Jr. bacon ranch fries for the sheer stomach discomfort this issue's feature story inflicted upon me. On page 87, underneath that familiar malformed face sat the words "An Evening With Lil' Bub." I assure you, those fast-food employees must have cursed their minimum wage salaries for all of the vomit they had to clean up that day.

I couldn't believe it. The DFA had gotten to the once-credible institute known as Cat Fancy. I had no choice but to investigate. I turned to one of our IT guys, and after agreeing to take the fall if anyone found out about his underground pornography ring, he did a little e-mail hacking of a certain Beth A. Goodman, who you all surely know as the editor-in-chief of Cat Fancy magazine-and the results were damning. Turns out, months earlier, the owner of Lil' Bub reached out to the publication, stating, "Going to be in the Irvine area Wednesday for a photo shoot-would love to check out the Cat Fancy offices!" To which Ms. Goodman replied, "Sure, that'd be great!" Collusion! My weak stomach ejected the remaining contents of my lunch into my cubicle. Though this would be a half-day for me, it was a Pyrrhic victory at best.

True Cat Fans, I implore you. This injustice will not stand. We must fight fire with fire, and that means a coordinated e-mail campaign and boycott of all Cat Fancy advertisers. By all means, do not harass Beth A. Goodman at her home on 2234 Elkridge Court in Irvine, California-and especially not when she gets home from work at 6:34pm (give or take). Do not send threatening messages to her children, Zach and Ira Goodman, who are in 6th and 8th grade (respectively) at Ronald Reagan Middle School at 436 Birch Street. And certainly you should not poison her dog, who eats out of a red bowl located roughly 15 feet from the garage door, behind the gardenia bush. Our voices will be heard. #CatGate will be our cause. And if there are any lawyers out there, I need to know the difference between manslaughter and the various degrees of murder. For a friend.

– A True Cat Fan (http://www.somethingawful.com/author/72/)

Destor

11-03-2014, 05:16 AM

No, people asked questions, he calmly explained the answers. Then those people proceeded to promptly ignore everything he said in favor of making uninformed arguments.

Kalyx clearly is the victor here. He even made TheRogerer freak out and I thought that was something only I could do.
No matter how calmly a person explains their insanity it doesnt make them sound any less crazy. and this is bennie baby hoarders level crazy.

and thats pretty much my entire take on Gamergate too. too many toys to have real problems.

The Rogerer

11-03-2014, 05:28 AM

Well if DTTS has one thing in his favour then he's proving that there's no such thing as objectivity and everything depends on subjective interpretation. Which is a bit of a blow to #gamergate's post-hoc manifesto, but why let reality get in the way of a debate.

I am going to go and hysterically blub in the corner, and I will miss Kalyx winning the DTTS award for good posting.

Kalyx triaD

11-03-2014, 11:18 AM

Yo DTTS; that article RoXer pasted - that's gaslighting.

Swiss Ultimate

11-03-2014, 08:30 PM

It can't be, TheRogerer didn't freak out about it and refuse to watch the video.

Swiss Ultimate

11-03-2014, 10:27 PM

No matter how calmly a person explains their insanity it doesnt make them sound any less crazy. and this is bennie baby hoarders level crazy.

and thats pretty much my entire take on Gamergate too. too many toys to have real problems.

I kind of feel this way about game journalists trying to make the case that all gamers are secretly raping babies or whatever nonsense they came up with. A while back TOR.com published a screed about how scifi books shouldn't focus on characters with binary gender.

Aside from being asinine, it was also a case where the blog poster had no clue what she was talking about. The scifi genre has no shortage of weird sexuality.

That the social justice warriors would be so prominent in game media isn't surprising, nor is it surprising that they're just as out of the loop and dishonest as they are in every other part of the culture they inhabit.

What is so crazy about Kalyx's stances on game journalism exactly? Other than absolutely nothing I mean.

The Rogerer

11-04-2014, 11:51 AM

The call of gamergate has been for objectivity in coverage and reviews which is absolutely backwards. A subjective review is much more helpful because it is honest about the inherent preferences, balances and impressions. I would like to see a game review that is properly objective while being readable and informative.

The call for objectivity is mostly based in the fact that these subjective reviews have opinions that the audience don't agree with. This is only sometimes 'S.J.W.' issues, just as often it's been that someone has given a review score that does not match the status quo.

Also, it's not actually really games journalism, but enthusiast press.

Kalyx triaD

11-04-2014, 06:40 PM

I would like to see a game review that is properly objective while being readable and informative.

http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=80659

Swiss Ultimate

11-04-2014, 08:59 PM

He thinks we were calling him CHT in our personal discussion. The fact that he was reading our discussion is beyond me though since he usually calls that sort of thing "stalking".

Kalyx triaD

11-04-2014, 09:02 PM

Yeah I can't imagine what compelled him to 'dig' in either of our visitor messages. Boredom, I guess.

Swiss Ultimate

11-04-2014, 11:48 PM

Maybe we should talk about George Zimmerman or something else we disagree on passionately, before we cause the universe to implode.

SlickyTrickyDamon

11-05-2014, 12:15 AM

Zimmerman will probably do something else to get put in jail. He just has a shitty personality and view on life. He is trash.

He will do something stupid like OJ did and he'll be back in jail.

I think justice was served in him being not-guilty but he has already proven that he is just waiting for the time to ruin his life again. Road Rage incident, visiting a gun manufacture and something about guns with his girlfriend involving police. He is living dangerously.

Swiss Ultimate

11-05-2014, 12:45 AM

Zimmerman is a lunatic. OJ was innocent.

The Rogerer

11-05-2014, 06:49 AM

Yeah I can't imagine what compelled him to 'dig' in either of our visitor messages. Boredom, I guess.I stumbled into it while looking for something else. I'm sorry if I've created the impression that your conversation was in somehow worth reading or of interest to anyone. Why would a conversation about me attract my attention, indeed? Feel free to have it. The flow of the conversation meant that it appeared I was being referred to as CHT as your new conversation bleeds into the old one, and then my name appears out of nowhere. An innocent mistake, however you may understand the feeling that one is being referred to in code by a man who has a history of playing with you, arouses some curiosity.

Is your link to the Resident Evil 2 review a joke? I'm struggling to find significant objective thrusts in there, of course there are factual descriptions throughout. It's a decent review, it revels in your subjective experience, these things are connected.

I thought it would be best for Zimmerman if everyone stopped discussing him.

Swiss Ultimate

11-05-2014, 09:12 AM

Looking for something else.

The Rogerer

11-05-2014, 09:33 AM

A list of threads created by you

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 09:51 AM

I don't think visitor messages are searchable in any field.

The Rogerer

11-05-2014, 09:54 AM

If we must have this out, I went to DTTS's profile to view the 'View threads created by DTTS' link. Right below that I saw a verbose visitor message from you, which you can click to view the whole conversation in isolation. I'm not opposed to you having it, I imagine having a quasi-public discussion gives the same thrill as alleyway sex. And you're both quite entitled since I've had a go at both of you. I've even bent my own code of conduct a little in referring to you a couple of times in non related discussions, which was silly but not really disproprotionate in the whole scheme of things.

Nark Order

11-05-2014, 11:18 AM

All of these discussion forum posters are seriously freaking me out. WHY NOW

The Rogerer

11-05-2014, 11:23 AM

Shitehawkes gonna shitehawke

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 12:28 PM

http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=80659

That is not an objective review. This is not meant as a criticism, it's just me pointing out the difficulty of having a truly objective game review system. There are a couple of things here, such as you describing Ada Wong as "sexy and secretive" (I don't think this is problematic or offensive or sexist or anything like that, though I do find pretty much all attempts by games to be sexy or to introduce sexuality to be juvenile and embarrassing) rather than, say, describing Leon as "sexy". You also talk about the storyline working "for you" which is an overt acknowledgement that this is your own opinion, though you don't go into detail on this, presumably for reasons of plot spoiling. Thematically, the storyline may not work for others.

Now, straining to be objective isn't necessarily helpful because some people (myself included) like to hear about interesting or problematic themes in story-telling, be it in film, TV or games. As I've said, I listen to one particular film critic for this very reason as I know he'll point out narrative themes that bother him in the same way they bother me. If games are to "grow up" as a form of entertainment, then these criticisms of narrative in games have to be made. Arguing that it is a hindrance to artistic freedom is a red herring: no one has to change in response to criticism, but they have to decide whether the criticism is voluble or accurate enough to look at their own methods. More refined criticism leads to greater innovation in games and story-telling. As the consumer, it's also your prerogative to value the opinions of certain critics (journalists, reviewers).

Savio

11-05-2014, 05:48 PM

No one wants to play with you ECG, go away.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 06:00 PM

Grown ups are talking, be quiet.

Savio

11-05-2014, 06:03 PM

take your faggotry else-ware.

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 06:15 PM

Rogerer was right that I posted that old review as something of a gag, but I did wanna point out that reviews absent of political slants are possible. It's the entirety of classic EGM's reviews, for instance.

When you say games are growing up and thus new kinds of criticism are required, I kinda call bullshit on that. Games have been criticized well enough for years and has they evolved toward realism or alternative goals, so to did commentary change with them.

Now I'm not saying you can't make a review that expresses your political rhetoric, but you have to remember these games aren't made to promote any political or social commentary. Judging them as such makes a monkey out of you.

If you wanted to review a Tom Clancy game through the lens of political rhetoric that makes perfect sense. Even the Metal Gear games for all their military fantasy. I can see that. But it's unfair viewing a game through political lens when the creators didn't venture out for that kind of thing. It's a major missing the point as well as painting a developer/publisher in a corner they never prepared for. And I don't think they should start preparing for them.

In my review I highlighted Ada as sexy and secretive, tropes of the Femme Fatale archetype. It is exactly the words you use to describe that kind of character. A women would write the same thing if she wanted to highlight her and the trope. The developers were very aware of the character type as well. It makes sense to mention that. I won't call Leon sexy not because I'm not gay - but because his character traits weren't made with that in mind. He was young and in over his head when he debuted in the series. That's not sexy at all. That's not any archetypes that include 'sexy'.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

The Rogerer

11-05-2014, 06:52 PM

There's only nothing political in your review because a)the game is blockbuster/b-movie cinema referential and b)it doesn't say anything to your personal beliefs. If it did have something to say, or cause a reaction in you I would expect you to talk about that and not deny it.

I don't know why a reviewer should attempt to write towards an approximation of the mainstream audience because that's dishonest, and that person doesn't exist. I think it's a sign of your biases that you think military storylines and games warrant discussion, but other things don't. Many people have many things to say, different values, and different things that matter to them. We all have biases. Your opinion is also understandable and not irregular, but not absolute by any means.

Why shouldn't a player, a reviewer, challenge the artist with something they didn't intend? Are artists supposed to be omniscent? What about the Death of the Author? What about all the unintended consequence of art? They are intrinsic to creative works. Why should the reviewer surpress themselves, and lie? We're supposed to be chasing honesty here. If someone forms an opinion of the art as is, others may feel the same way, they should not lie about their experience. If they try to surpress and ignore it, they will likely fail anyway.

We have your personal perspectives and biases, and I've tried to highlight yours in that post. Where I think you've gone wrong is the easy and classical mistake that you take so much of your perspective for granted and then assume that to be the objective. You are as subjective as anyone else. I can read your review with an assessment of you, the things you're into, the things you've played, and that all forms part of my impression. Do not forget the most important part, we are all humans here.

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 07:01 PM

There's only nothing political in your review because a)the game is blockbuster/b-movie cinema referential and b)it doesn't say anything to your personal beliefs. If it did have something to say, or cause a reaction in you I would expect you to talk about that and not deny it.

Of course, but the bold portion of this post is literally what I just explained. That's a very important element about all this review stuff.

I don't know why a reviewer should attempt to write towards an approximation of the mainstream audience because that's dishonest, and that person doesn't exist. I think it's a sign of your biases that you think military storylines and games warrant discussion, but other things don't.

I didn't mean military games specifically, but games that intentionally delve into political themes obviously warrant political discussion. Notice nobody took offense to the reviews of Spec Ops: The Line. Now why is that?

Why shouldn't a player, a reviewer, challenge the artist with something they didn't intend?

Because it misses the intentional of the work, particularly in the realm of entertainment where if you want games that make commentary about a worldview you can find them. I would ask why would somebody look at Peach being kidnapped by a giant turtle dragon and posit questions of gender roles - when Myamoto only intended to find goal/motivations for players to experiment his platforming gameplay theory.

A player can challenge an artist on things outside of artists' intention; but I believe that's a conversation that can never lead anywhere, and hasn't led anywhere.

Frankly, I think you sum it all up in your post. You have your personal perspectives and biases, and I've tried to highlight them. Where I think you've gone wrong is the easy and classical mistake that you take so much of your perspective for granted and then assume that to be the objective. You are as subjective as anyone else. I can read your review with an assessment of you, the things you're into, the things you've played, and that all forms part of my impression. Do not forget the most important part, we are all humans here.

k thx

The Rogerer

11-05-2014, 07:24 PM

I think there's really deep, fundamental problems with the way you're looking at the relationship between creators, works and audience. I'm clocking out here, but that point is an empasse. I have to say it really doesn't make sense, especially when we are talking about commercially released, mass produced works. You're also inappropriately deifying creators when they are products of a culture that they are born of and shape themselves. Games are not Platonic Forms that are drawn out, they are every bit as subjective as these reviews. Of course unintended consequences are real and valid. Why on earth would you engage with an audience otherwise? You are practically saying that no one is allowed to disagree with an artists opinion. There's nothing magical about them.

Released games enter the culture. They are part of the culture, and therefore subject to it. They do this willingly. They are inviting our feelings and opinions. You don't get to cherry pick the good reactions and drop the bad.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 08:28 PM

Rogerer was right that I posted that old review as something of a gag, but I did wanna point out that reviews absent of political slants are possible. It's the entirety of classic EGM's reviews, for instance.

When you say games are growing up and thus new kinds of criticism are required, I kinda call bullshit on that. Games have been criticized well enough for years and has they evolved toward realism or alternative goals, so to did commentary change with them.

Now I'm not saying you can't make a review that expresses your political rhetoric, but you have to remember these games aren't made to promote any political or social commentary. Judging them as such makes a monkey out of you.

If you wanted to review a Tom Clancy game through the lens of political rhetoric that makes perfect sense. Even the Metal Gear games for all their military fantasy. I can see that. But it's unfair viewing a game through political lens when the creators didn't venture out for that kind of thing. It's a major missing the point as well as painting a developer/publisher in a corner they never prepared for. And I don't think they should start preparing for them.

In my review I highlighted Ada as sexy and secretive, tropes of the Femme Fatale archetype. It is exactly the words you use to describe that kind of character. A women would write the same thing if she wanted to highlight her and the trope. The developers were very aware of the character type as well. It makes sense to mention that. I won't call Leon sexy not because I'm not gay - but because his character traits weren't made with that in mind. He was young and in over his head when he debuted in the series. That's not sexy at all. That's not any archetypes that include 'sexy'.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

It doesn't matter if games are not made with the express purpose of making political or rhetorical statements if there are themes there-in that people still find problematic. I appreciate that Mark Kermode, the film reviewer I refer to, points out that Sex and the City has revolting capitalist/consumerist overtones with crudely-drawn, subservient, noble savage foreign characters and that Michael Bay films have vulgar, unnecessary objectification of women. I want to know these things because I know these things will annoy me, even if the only intention of the film maker was to rope in a certain demographic.

Similarly, if a reviewer or critic wants to highlight problematic issues in story-telling or imagery in games, that is fair game. That is what critique is about. The artist's intent is utterly irrelevant, to be honest, and, indeed, this is where games designers need to realise that part of having a wider audience is acknowledging that people will have problems with the things you do.

It's not really for you to say how a reviewer or critic interprets these things. You can either argue with them or ignore it. The point is that society informs art and art informs society. If games want to be seen as something enjoyed by people other than teenage boys in their dark bedrooms then with that comes different priorities in story-telling and imagery for different audiences. Furthermore, this encourages innovation in story-telling, which is important as games attempt to be more about an encompassing experience.

Games are also yet another media frontier in challenging sociological archetypes, because young and impressionable people play them. There is, again, nothing wrong with pointing this out. As an adult male who has played games all his life, I don't want to be embarrassed by the hobby.

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 08:55 PM

An issue I have with what you're saying is identifying something as "problematic" versus saying you just don't like it.

I mean, in one breath you vilify sexuality in games as juvenile while also saying games need to grow up as an art form. I suspect you'll never see certain subjects in games as legit regardless of how far it can evolve as an art form.

But you do say that this is a business, which is funny. As a capitalistic industry, games will want to appeal to either a mass populace or at least the hardcore fanbase who will recoup costs of production. Money talks, and money says people care about games as they are. These things are either art or toys when you deem fit. They are business products or photographs of society's condition when you see fit.

But back to point; I stress that that not all opinions in reviews are equal, only that one as a right to one. There's a reason you're better pressed to read another game review by me over some random. I'm sure random would find things to critique on, too, but they wouldn't be the things a potential consumer would wanna hear about a game. I've spoken about this with my Camero scenario.

So again, somebody could well critique any facet of a game. I would never say otherwise. But while everyone an opinion, they are not all equal. Certain opinion are more informed than others with the industry/game/genre in context.

Swiss Ultimate

11-05-2014, 09:02 PM

If we must have this out, I went to DTTS's profile to view the 'View threads created by DTTS' link. Right below that I saw a verbose visitor message from you, which you can click to view the whole conversation in isolation. I'm not opposed to you having it, I imagine having a quasi-public discussion gives the same thrill as alleyway sex. And you're both quite entitled since I've had a go at both of you. I've even bent my own code of conduct a little in referring to you a couple of times in non related discussions, which was silly but not really disproprotionate in the whole scheme of things.

You had a go at me? When?

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 09:04 PM

Games are also yet another media frontier in challenging sociological archetypes, because young and impressionable people play them.

This is just another way, a nicer way, of saying these things are toys. Everybody plays games. And "challenging sociological archetypes" is only an effort a dev should opt into, rather than the thinly veiled shaming if they choose to ignore that viewpoint ("young and impressionable kids play them, ergo..."). I'm against any idea that suggests art should be something other than what the artist intends.

As an adult male who has played games all his life, I don't want to be embarrassed by the hobby.

That has everything to do with you. Dead or Alive should not embarrass you anymore than Human Centipede should embarrass me as a horror movie fan. Things you don't like exist within a industries you love.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 09:10 PM

I didn't vilify the concept of sexuality in games as juvenile, I said "pretty much all attempts" have been juvenile, which is true. This completely fits in with the need for games designers to keep in mind a wider audience, not a teenage boy, if the medium is to mature.

Entertainment can be both mass-market and frivolous or it can be serious and life-defining. There's no contradiction in that. Anyone who watches films understands there are different types of film that be enjoyed equally as much in different ways. Indeed, the games I have enjoyed most recently have been the Souls games that have thrown all narrative and wider character motivation out the window and went for simple objective-chasing wrapped around a superb combat mechanic and a beautifully realised world, whereas I've found attempts like GTA V and Skyrim to be more encompassing to be off-putting and got bored of Bioshock Infinite before finishing it.

But this is speaking at cross-purposes. People can make games for whatever reason they want and their target audience can enjoy them for whatever reason they want. This does not preclude the legitimate critique of what a critic may consider problematic imagery or themes in games. This drives development and innovation.

And you're also wrong, because I do want to hear about these things. I want to hear about the gameplay, the game mechanics, the sound, the graphics, the level design etc. and I want to hear if there's off-putting themes in the game. I basically lost interest in single player GTA V after the torture scene, after tolerating the appalling yoga and strip-club scenes, because it was so crass and dull-witted. A horrific misstep from a game that has traditionally been very strong on satire.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 09:16 PM

This is just another way, a nicer way, of saying these things are toys. Everybody plays games. And "challenging sociological archetypes" is only an effort a dev should opt into, rather than the thinly veiled shaming if they choose to ignore that viewpoint ("young and impressionable kids play them, ergo..."). I'm against any idea that suggests art should be something other than what the artist intends.

No, it's not. It's saying that you have to bear in mind that media shapes society. If you wish to interpret it in such an insecure way, that is up to you. You being against that idea is also utterly irrelevant. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Some art is made with no explanation, which precludes the idea of an observer only "appreciating" it in the way the artist intends.

That has everything to do with you. Dead or Alive should not embarrass you anymore than Human Centipede should embarrass me as a horror movie fan. Things you don't like exist within a industries you love.

Of course it has everything to do with me. Why are my priorities any less valid than yours?

Film critics regularly excoriate films like The Human Centipede and other torture porn films for being exploitative and crass, as well as just bad films. Do you have a problem with this?

Swiss Ultimate

11-05-2014, 09:48 PM

O/T I hate how many people "liked" Human Centipede just to be shocking.

If we're going to compare video game reviewers to movie reviewers though, can we at least remember that Bikini Car Wash 3 didn't get reviewed by serious critics? Some films/games make the claim that they're something more than popcorn flicks or button-mashers and should be treated with the same level of seriousness as the fashion in which they are created.

Sonic and Mario games are a lot like harmlessly dumb CGI family films, Rockstar Games attempt to be a bit of everything and are usually called out on the juvenile aspects. Obviously the comparison could go on for a bit, but I'll stop there.

My only problem is when a "reviewer" has no interest in the medium and instead wants to force artists and schlock-writers/directors/game creators to stop making things that don't fit into their narrowly defined list of acceptable art. When a reviewer treats a dumb action film like it's cultural kryptonite because it doesn't attempt to display the confusion and pain of people with gender identity issues we can safely say that person is missing the point.

There are plenty of truly vile things out there to complain about though.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 09:56 PM

Who is forcing anyone to stop making anything?

A film also shouldn't get free rein to go uncriticised just because it is "supposed" to be stupid.

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 10:27 PM

No, it's not. It's saying that you have to bear in mind that media shapes society.

Art imitates life.

I'm gonna guess we won't meet halfway here.

Of course it has everything to do with me. Why are my priorities any less valid than yours?

My priorities make it so you can have the entertainment you want. Your priorities, at its logical conclusion, eventually limits art.

Film critics regularly excoriate films like The Human Centipede and other torture porn films for being exploitative and crass, as well as just bad films. Do you have a problem with this?

I don't like the movie and sub-genre so I would be in agreement with those critics. What I didn't see is them ascribing themes to those movies where they knew wasn't intended. Imagine making an observation in Saw 5 pertaining to how hospitals should widen admissions to mental health patients. Not a bad thought per se, but ridiculous when your subject is fucking Saw 5.

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 10:31 PM

Who is forcing anyone to stop making anything?

When you say something is "problematic" and go out of your way to remind us that "young and impressionable" kids are playing these games, where else is that road supposed to lead but regulation of creative freedom?

A film also shouldn't get free rein to go uncriticised just because it is "supposed" to be stupid.

We never said people aren't allowed to criticize. This is my second or third time saying this. Anybody can critique, but not all critiques are valid.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 10:33 PM

I don't like the movie and sub-genre so I would be in agreement with those critics. What I didn't see is them ascribing themes to those movies where they knew wasn't intended. Imagine making an observation in Saw 5 pertaining to how hospitals should widen admissions to mental health patients. Not a bad thought per se, but ridiculous when your subject is fucking Saw 5.

Funny that you mention that, I did a course on mental illness in film. It analysed depictions of the mentally ill and mental health professions in film. That sort of thing is actually what I'm talking about, the idea being that films (and other media) reinforcing the same themes, stereotypes, tropes and cliches over and over again informs how people see reality. The implication being that films contribute to a fear of the mentally ill and to an out-dated view of the mental health profession.

Which is all very interesting and I like to hear people talk about it. If a reviewer feels subjects like that are important then they should talk about it. The artistic value of the work they talk about is largely irrelevant if people watch it.

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 10:35 PM

My approach to this is any company can make any game for anybody, and critics can have a ball after the fact.

Your viewpoint is art beholden to critics, where artists must adhere to creator whims. That is the difference between us.

Were I king of world who can allow or veto anything ever; creative freedom lives. Including garbage like Human Centipede and Hatred. You as king of the world, based on what you wrote here and in other threads, almost certainly sees the end of creative freedom.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 10:35 PM

When you say something is "problematic" and go out of your way to remind us that "young and impressionable" kids are playing these games, where else is that road supposed to lead but regulation of creative freedom?

We never said people aren't allowed to criticize. This is my second or third time saying this. Anybody can critique, but not all critiques are valid.

It leads to developers adapting to different audiences. Why would you assume it means banning anything? Are you arguing that we should ban critique to protect expression? No one is forced to listen to critics or the market if they do not want to, besides the financial imperative.

Who decides what is valid or not? Ultimately that's a personal decision.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 10:39 PM

My approach to this is any company can make any game for anybody, and critics can have a ball after the fact.

Your viewpoint is art beholden to critics, where artists must adhere to creator whims. That is the difference between us.

Were I king of world who can allow or veto anything ever; creative freedom lives. Including garbage like Human Centipede and Hatred. You as king of the world, based on what you wrote here and in other threads, almost certainly sees the end of creative freedom.

What are you talking about? Where have I said these films should be banned or censored? Please don't put words in my mouth. Where have I said artists should be beholden to critics? What I have quite clearly argued is that criticism and analysis can inform consumption and in turn artistic direction.

Is the other thread you are talking about the anime child porn one?

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 10:42 PM

Funny that you mention that, I did a course on mental illness in film. It analysed depictions of the mentally ill and mental health professions in film. That sort of thing is actually what I'm talking about, the idea being that films (and other media) reinforcing the same themes, stereotypes, tropes and cliches over and over again informs how people see reality. The implication being that films contribute to a fear of the mentally ill and to an out-dated view of the mental health profession.

So who better to write a great script that challenges the public perception of the mentally ill than you. I would honestly 100% support you on that. I'm not being pandemic, either. You see an issue, you wanna see change, in a capitalistic entertainment market that's how you do it.

My nephew was recently concluded to have autism. We've never had an autistic family member, and I admit a great many things I didn't think seriously about came front and center. How hard is education going to be, how will he interact with other kids, where is he on the spectrum, etc.

If you think the mentally ill/handicapped can be better served in media, point me to the project and I'm yours - but I still don't agree that we should put any pressure on creators to do anything other what they wanna do.

If a reviewer feels subjects like that are important then they should talk about it.

Agreed.

The artistic value of the work they talk about is largely irrelevant if people watch it.

Care to rephrase this?

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 10:48 PM

It leads to developers adapting to different audiences. Why would you assume it means banning anything? Are you arguing that we should ban critique to protect expression? No one is forced to listen to critics or the market if they do not want to, besides the financial imperative.

Who decides what is valid or not? Ultimately that's a personal decision.

You keep going back to me having a problem with people critiquing rather than the strength of their critique. For the last time: I have no problem with people analyzing art through any lens they like, but with industry context they have to be aware that not all opinions are valued equally.

Please read my Camero review scenario again where I explain more about the idea of legit, informed opinions vs people who miss the point.

What are you talking about? Where have I said these films should be banned or censored? Please don't put words in my mouth. Where have I said artists should be beholden to critics? What I have quite clearly argued is that criticism and analysis can inform consumption and in turn artistic direction.

None but the most strident would out and say they want something banned. Few people wanna be 'that guy'. So I'll just ask you directly:

Were you king of the earth, able to pass or deny anything; does GTA5 as it is right now exist? Does Dead or Alive 5 exist? Does Mortal Kombat exist?

Is the other thread you are talking about the anime child porn one?

Yessir.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 10:51 PM

So who better to write a great script that challenges the public perception of the mentally ill than you. I would honestly 100% support you on that. I'm not being pandemic, either. You see an issue, you wanna see change, in a capitalistic entertainment market that's how you do it.

My nephew was recently concluded to have autism. We've never had an autistic family member, and I admit a great many things I didn't think seriously about came front and center. How hard is education going to be, how will he interact with other kids, where is he on the spectrum, etc.

If you think the mentally ill/handicapped can be better served in media, point me to the project and I'm yours - but I still don't agree that we should put any pressure on creators to do anything other what they wanna do.

Who better would be someone who can write good scripts. I'm not a script-writer or a film producer. I watch films and can appreciate good stories.

There is nothing wrong with highlighting the effect of art and media on society so that artists understand the potential consequences of their work. In this instance, for example, does your piece possibly further stigmatise the mentally ill? This is how criticism works, has always worked. It has never been just about saying "this is good, 8/10". Which is to say that games should be ready for that kind of criticism if the medium is to develop.

This is also how the free market/capitalism works. An amateur with no talent trying to make an issue piece is less helpful than informed criticism suggest artists consider the consequences of their work for people who may identify or be identified with the characters there-in. No one is forcing them to even listen, indeed, most don't unless the market they're marginalising is large enough to dent profits.

Care to rephrase this?

It's the same point said 3 different ways now. If people consume your work then you are influencing them, be it positively or negatively, so it still matters what you say with that work.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 11:04 PM

You keep going back to me having a problem with people critiquing rather than the strength of their critique. For the last time: I have no problem with people analyzing art through any lens they like, but with industry context they have to be aware that not all opinions are valued equally.

Please read my Camero review scenario again where I explain more about the idea of legit, informed opinions vs people who miss the point.

That is a redundant statement. If your opinion is not valued then no one listens or responds to it. This is simple. That's why none of us read or watch everything written or recorded about the stuff we like. This is absolutely redundant.

However, Anita Sarkeesian to name one, is only a public persona now because of the response to her criticisms. So therefore what she says has been made valid by the debate that has ensued.

None but the most strident would out and say they want something banned. Few people wanna be 'that guy'. So I'll just ask you directly:

Were you king of the earth, able to pass or deny anything; does GTA5 as it is right now exist? Does Dead or Alive 5 exist? Does Mortal Kombat exist?

Considering that I've played GTA and Mortal Kombat since both original games were released, it would be a bit ludicrous for me to have them banned. I've loved both games over the years in their various iterations. But this is not to say that when a game like GTA V throws away the sharply-observed satire of previous incarnations, and almost becomes a version of what it used to parody, that I cannot point this out, nor that it should not be pointed out by critics. GTA IV just bored me, GTA V just turned me off single player with that segment (though I may pick it up again since my internet connection is so bad here to make online play basically impossible bar some Worms 2).

Trying to paint me as a prude is wide of the mark, rather than just someone who is dismayed by artistic laziness and crassness.

In regards to the other thread, that's a side issue. Since I've had to do a bit of work on child protection and recognising/preventing abuse, I'm coming to it from that angle. What I will say is that The Rogerer made the best point in that thread, in that the prosecutors and police involved have to look at all child porn and categorise it that they bring to court for any case, so it is not a case of prudes not understanding something. They have to sit through all that shit and go home to their families afterwards. If they brought that case and achieved a conviction, I would tend to believe they had a reason to do so because what they had seen demonstrated a possible threat to the public.

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 11:10 PM

An artist is not responsible for how people will take his work. That's not what he signed up for, and it's his freedom to opt in and consider what he wants to be absorbed by his potential audience.

Just now the JL8 thread got updated with something I think kids would be served well seeing. Yale knows his artwork and narrative tone could attract younger fans. He opts to plant a very important message concerning missing children, even under great fan service for us oldies. That was his decision and I support it. And then there's works that kids eat up that don't even bother with subtle PSAs. That's fine, too. These people are not your parents, counselors, teachers, or whatever else you think artists suddenly become because they're work is out there.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 11:15 PM

Actually they are responsible, they design it to influence people. But otherwise I'm not sure where I argued that anyone has any obligation to be influenced in turn by the response to their work?

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 11:22 PM

Here's another mental health example for you: it has been noted from studies that high profile reporting of suicide in the media causes a spike in suicides in the area in which it has been reported. Suicides are contagious in the media. Furthermore, media describing or depicting suicide techniques influences attempts in reality. This is why some newspapers have entered an agreement not to report suicide details. People are more psychologically malleable than any of us like to believe.

I'm not arguing the media is killing people. What I am arguing is that it is worth talking about the influence of art and media on society. Whether artists wish to let this influence their work or not depends on how much they value criticism, how much they value financial gain or how much they value their own artistic vision.

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 11:44 PM

However, Anita Sarkeesian to name one, is only a public persona now because of the response to her criticisms. So therefore what she says has been made valid by the debate that has ensued.

lol right

I wonder if you're consistent about this in other areas. "Backlash dignifies uninformed opinions."

Considering that I've played GTA and Mortal Kombat since both original games were released, it would be a bit ludicrous for me to have them banned. I've loved both games over the years in their various iterations. But this is not to say that when a game like GTA V throws away the sharply-observed satire of previous incarnations, and almost becomes a version of what it used to parody, that I cannot point this out, nor that it should not be pointed out by critics. GTA IV just bored me, GTA V just turned me off single player with that segment (though I may pick it up again since my internet connection is so bad here to make online play basically impossible bar some Worms 2).

So you are fine with GTA5 being out there? We're agreeing on that?

Trying to paint me as a prude is wide of the mark, rather than just someone who is dismayed by artistic laziness and crassness.

You call it whatever you like, I'm just worried that you feel it should change on your terms when you're not the creator.

In regards to the other thread, that's a side issue. Since I've had to do a bit of work on child protection and recognising/preventing abuse, I'm coming to it from that angle. What I will say is that The Rogerer made the best point in that thread, in that the prosecutors and police involved have to look at all child porn and categorise it that they bring to court for any case, so it is not a case of prudes not understanding something. They have to sit through all that shit and go home to their families afterwards. If they brought that case and achieved a conviction, I would tend to believe they had a reason to do so because what they had seen demonstrated a possible threat to the public.

I wish I was still that optimistic about our justice system.

Kalyx triaD

11-05-2014, 11:47 PM

Actually they are responsible, they design it to influence people.

Really now?

Here's another mental health example for you: it has been noted from studies that high profile reporting of suicide in the media causes a spike in suicides in the area in which it has been reported. Suicides are contagious in the media. Furthermore, media describing or depicting suicide techniques influences attempts in reality. This is why some newspapers have entered an agreement not to report suicide details. People are more psychologically malleable than any of us like to believe.

Depressing but not the responsibility of artists.

I'm not arguing the media is killing people. What I am arguing is that it is worth talking about the influence of art and media on society. Whether artists wish to let this influence their work or not depends on how much they value criticism, how much they value financial gain or how much they value their own artistic vision.

They can actually do all three at once. You're constructing false choices.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 11:51 PM

lol right

I wonder if you're consistent about this in other areas. "Backlash dignifies uninformed opinions."

She would be a nobody if not for the reaction of gamers. This much is true.

So you are fine with GTA5 being out there? We're agreeing on that?

In what way could I be clearer? I'd prefer it if it was a more enjoyable game since I spent money on it.[/QUOTE]

You call it whatever you like, I'm just worried that you feel it should change on your terms when you're not the creator.

I hope you don't lose any sleep over it. I wonder, though, why you feel the criticism we've debating here is any less valid than debating criticism of other artistic decisions, such as plotting, dialogue etc.? It's almost as if you are arguing criticism should not exist.

I wish I was still that optimistic about our justice system.

The case discussed in that thread took place in England so it's not your justice system.

El Capitano Gatisto

11-05-2014, 11:54 PM

Really now?

Yes. Of course. That is the point. To make people laugh/cry/think.

Depressing but not the responsibility of artists.

Some may feel it is and change their decisions based on it. That is their prerogative. Stanley Kubrick banned A Clockwork Orange himself because some youths in England kicked a tramp to death while singing Singin' in the Rain. Others may not be aware of the influence of art/media on behaviour. How they choose to work with that knowledge is up to them. Art is not so sacred that people cannot value things above an artist's conscience.

They can actually do all three at once. You're constructing false choices.

Where did I say or even imply they were mutually exclusive?

Kalyx triaD

11-06-2014, 12:33 AM

She would be a nobody if not for the reaction of gamers. This much is true.

It is, but that says nothing of her rhetoric's validity.

I'd prefer it if it was a more enjoyable game since I spent money on it.

You mean you're gonna make sure it's enjoyable before you spend money.

I wonder, though, why you feel the criticism we've debating here is any less valid than debating criticism of other artistic decisions, such as plotting, dialogue etc.? It's almost as if you are arguing criticism should not exist.

I'm starting to think you're trolling me with this, after me saying multiple times criticism is fine.

Thoughts on plot and dialogue is perfectly fine, as they are elements the writer is giving unto you. What's I've been arguing is how certain art should be judged on the merits it sets out for, not what the reviewer posits onto it.

Consider that you've been arguing for a freedom of critique beyond freedom the art they're reviewing.

The case discussed in that thread took place in England so it's not your justice system.

I concede.

Kalyx triaD

11-06-2014, 12:35 AM

Yes. Of course. That is the point. To make people laugh/cry/think.

I have a feeling you just backed off on another point but I'll go with this.

Where did I say or even imply they were mutually exclusive?

The use of 'or'.

The Rogerer

11-06-2014, 04:24 AM

Let's not forget that a lot of the context of this is being used springboard to lash out at 'SJW's, criticise harrassment and other things that piss people off. If you want to act that way, knock yourself out, but it's annoying when the manifesto has fatal problems.

Everyone is invited to criticise the medium. The notion that developers and publishers shouldn't be subject to things they don't intend is a show of bias, which is only a problem when you're calling against bias. When I myself know how childish, materialistic and mercanary the games industry is, it isn't hard to connect the dots and see where these ideas are coming from. Gamers are having a hard time coming out of the treehouse, but it's better out there. You cannot hide behind your intent in this world. Imagine saying that about any other medium. Politics would be a wonderfully rosy place.

If I produce a game, and someone makes a judgement on what I presented, I would be a coward or an idiot to go "Actually, that's not fair, I didn't mean to do that, I'm special". Stories don't come from heaven, they bounce out of the collective culture. Especially when you're producing something where your express intent is mass appeal. You can't claim the precious artist defence when they are stacking them high and selling them low. They're stepping into the slings and arrows.

Come to think of it, I did produce a game at university where I was asked to change the subject matter because it was insensitive. It seems funny at the time because we were young and stupid, but it was clear that it wasn't the best idea. So we changed it. Oh, my artistic sprit died that day! Surely the angels will weep as the oppresive world kills things that are too beautiful to exist. Where was our freedom of speech? No, me, the artist, AN artist, was just being a stupid prick.

Swiss Ultimate

11-07-2014, 11:08 AM

Games are games. It's not the artist's/creator's fault that you see something that isn't there. It might not even be your fault.

I remember in high-school we used to do those annoying essays about the meaning of works of literature. As long as we could make a persuasive case about what we thought the author MEANT, then we passed. It's bull-shit, basically and more so than a critique where you explain why you don't like it, it's purposely deluding yourself into thinking that you can change the meaning of something through analytic interpretation.

Maybe, the character went fishing because he liked to fish. Maybe it isn't a comment on how all men are abusive monsters attempting to lure in innocent women to gut and devour.

SJWs see meaning where there is none and ignore the obvious when it doesn't fit their preconceived notions of how the world works.

The Rogerer

11-07-2014, 11:22 AM

This conversation is really a shoot off from a discussion about Bayonetta's sexuality, remember, if you're talking about seeing things that aren't there. If you can find an egrious example of complete freeballing reinterpretation, go on. That's not what the gamergaters I've spoken to talk about. They complain about games with intentional overt sexuality, having that aspect commented on. Namely Bayonetta 2 and Dragon's Crown. The sexuality is there because these mass produced commercial games products are aimed and marketed at a particular demographic.

You love persuasive cases though. You were complementing Kalyx on his quoque.

Swiss Ultimate

11-07-2014, 11:54 AM

Kal wasn't making a "persuasive" or "emotional" case, you're incorrect.

I tend to actually agree with the sentiment expressed by sane feminists and culture critics that almost everything is overly sexualized, more specifically almost everything that has young children as a target demo (ie. Bratz, Monster High, Thomas the Train)

However, most of the critiques from these PC Police tend to be misplaced. "Why aren't more games helmed by female protagonists? Is it because gamers are all rapists?" Isn't too far off from how SJWs think about everything.

Here is an example (http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/01/post-binary-gender-in-sf-introduction) from a industry where I actually know something about:

I want an end to the default of binary gender in science fiction stories.

What do I mean by “post-binary gender”? It’s a term that has already been used to mean multiple things, so I will set out my definition:

Post-binary gender in SF is the acknowledgement that gender is more complex than the Western cultural norm of two genders (female and male): that there are more genders than two, that gender can be fluid, that gender exists in many forms.

People who do not fit comfortably into the gender binary exist in our present, have existed in our past, and will exist in our futures. So too do people who are binary-gendered but are often ignored, such as trans* people who identify as binary-gendered. I am not interested in discussions about the existence of these gender identities: we might as well discuss the existence of women or men. Gender complexity exists. SF that presents a rigid, unquestioned gender binary is false and absurd.

I intend to use this column to examine post-binary SF texts, both positively and critically, as well as for discussions of points surrounding this subject.

And I intend to use this column to go beyond Ursula K Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Darkness.

Kameron Hurley wrote several years ago about the frustration of The Left Hand of Darkness being the go-to book for mind-blowing gender in SF, despite being written in 1968. Nothing written in the decades since has got the same traction in mainstream SF discourse—and texts have been written. For a bit of context, 1968 is almost twenty years before I was born, and I’m hardly a child.

One of the reasons Hurley considers for this situation (raised by someone on a mailing list she belonged to) is that:

“...perhaps Le Guin’s book was so popular because it wasn’t actually as radical as we might think. It was very safe. The hetero male protagonist doesn’t have sex with any of the planet’s inhabitants, no matter their current gender. We go off on a boys’ own adventure story, on a planet entirely populated by people referred to as ‘he,’ no matter their gender. Le Guin is a natural storyteller, and she concentrates on the story. It’s not overly didactic. It’s engaging and entertaining.”

The Left Hand of Darkness certainly has been radical, as Hurley says, in its time, in the subsequent years and in the present. I have spoken to several people who found The Left Hand of Darkness immensely important: it provided their first glimpse of the possibility of non-binary gender. The impact that it has had on people’s realisations about their own gender is not something I want to diminish, nor anyone else’s growth in understanding.

However, I do think it can be very palatable for people who haven’t done a lot of thinking about gender. It is, as Hurley says earlier in her post, the kind of story that eases the reader in gently before dropping the gender bombs, and those bombs are not discomfiting for all readers. Of course they’re not. How can one text be expected to radicalise every reader?

I don’t want to cast The Left Hand of Darkness aside. It’s an important part of this conversation. What I do want to do is demonstrate how big that conversation truly is. Other texts have been published besides The Left Hand of Darkness, many of them oft-overlooked—many of them out of print. Some of them are profoundly problematic, but still provide interesting questions. Some of them are incredible and deserve to be considered classics of the genre. Some of them are being published right now, in 2014.

Amal El-Mohtar wrote a piece about the process of finding—having to find—a pioneering woman writer, Naomi Mitchison, and followed it up with a post where she said:

“It breaks my heart that we are always rediscovering great women, excavating them from the relentless soil of homogenizing histories, seeing them forever as exceptions to a rule of sediment and placing them in museums, remarkable more for their gender than for their work.”

It seems to me that there’s a similar process for post-binary texts: they exist, but each reader must discover them anew amid a narrative that says they are unusual, they are rare, they sit outside the standard set of stories. This, at least, has been my experience. I want to dismantle the sediment—to not only talk about post-binary texts and bring them to attention of more readers, but to do away with the default narrative.

That process of (re)discovery is probably inescapable. A bookshop, a library or a friend’s/family member’s bookshelves can’t contain every book ever published, so new readers will always have to actively seek out stories beyond the first ones they encounter. What if, El-Mohtar wonders, the first books often included Naomi Mitchison? What if the first books often included multiple post-binary texts as well?

Conversations about gender in SF have been taking place for a long time. I want to join in. I want more readers to be aware of texts old and new, and seek them out, and talk about them. I want more writers to stop defaulting to binary gender in their SF—I want to never again read entire anthologies of SF stories or large-cast novels where every character is binary-gendered. I want this conversation to be louder.

To that end, I’ll be running this column: posting every two weeks, with discussions of books and short stories, as well as interviews and roundtables with other writers and readers of post-binary SF, because I strongly believe it’s important to hear multiple voices. I’m particularly interested in science fiction at the moment, but I expect I’ll cross genres as I run the column.

I hope you’ll join me in making the default increasingly unstable.

If you take a moment to read this you'll see that the "critique" has nothing to do with actually making good science fiction. It is reveling in the idea of being politically correct and progressive and it is full of a singular intent to push people into group think.

The Rogerer

11-07-2014, 12:16 PM

Some things put sexy women in them and on them in an attempt to grab attention and money from my stupid male brain. It is a mercenary act. I am of course immune to this thanks to wXe but I'm allowed to criticise the practice. Games do this a lot.

And science fiction is at it's best when it's a playground for breaking down and reconstructing human concepts. You've lost it. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face there.

Kalyx triaD

11-07-2014, 07:07 PM

The point is rather than make a better product; these people are consumed by what they themselves decided to interpret it by. And even that would be fine on its own - except they go one step further in vilifying (directly or subtly) people who call them out or ignore them. It goes from 'personal opinion' to drawing a line, and then they fuss at people who choose the other side of the line.

Sci-Fi historically plays with conventions. That's cool. No problem with that. Some of the most progressive works ever stem from Sci-Fi. But here she comes conjuring up an issue where none existed, and then drew a line (creating a term 'post-binary sci-fi') that ironically forces a binary choice. I mean, she could have just simply wrote stories pertaining to her viewpoints. Instead it's about seeing who's down with the program and who's the 'old guard'.

They do this all the fucking time.

It's been observed that SJWs (and to a degree feminists) have a habit of making moves on certain industries after they've initially assimilated (or seem to have done so). They're there. Everything's gully. It would be some thing that unites people on common interests. And then BOOM; all of sudden somebody highlights an 'issue' nobody noticed. They create terms (ablist, etc) and then draw a line. It screwed with biology. It screwed with Atheism. It screwed with politics. It continues to fuck over universities. It made a mockery out of Occupy. It completely destroyed Tumblr (or made it hilarious depending on who you ask). It's slowly made moves on comics. And it's been pouring over the game industry this last generation.

And the biggest consistency is how in many of these groups/industries - they are almost NEVER the content makers or gears of that industry. If they were, they could simply subvert things on a legit scale. This is why GaymerX is great, but 'safe zones' at other conventions are insulting.

Swiss Ultimate

11-07-2014, 07:57 PM

Some big sci fi writers already have plenty of LGBT style aliens and main characters. It's pretty common. Only an idiot from the outside would think the genre somehow is missing out.

Sci fi, like all other genres, is at its best when it's entertaining. If it does not entertain, then you're doing it wrong. Very simple concept.

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 05:56 AM

The point is rather than make a better product;Surely there's a page in the logical fallacy scrapbook devoted to this old chestnut? Zoe Quinn would come to mind as someone who was trying to make a better product. Otherwise, that sentiment is a meaningless platitude of "you do it". Me? I've developed small games, I can code. I've also criticised games. I don't have any special privilege to criticise games over anyone else. If I released one of my games, I'm not going to line up the people who talk about my game, pat them down for their credentials and disregard their views.

It's interesting that you paint this as a unified movement of people, and also that you refer to GamerGate in the first person plural. This really seems to be a front of two groups to you, rather than scattered individuals. I'll even grant that gamergate isn't a bunch of this or that. It's a snowball movement that people are desperate to get into. It operates via boards, where it's easy to get angry, but mostly via twitter, which is the most infuriating by design thing to enter the world since the automobile. I want it to stop because while it runs, it will activate people who need an excuse to attack. On top of all this, I don't think the movement is worth anything because, as I've said, it's demands are fatally flawed. The frontier of games has withstood criticism for a long time. Your notion of people infiltrating it doesn't work for me. There's nothing to infiltrate, unless you view gaming as a refuge, a closed society, a tree house. The shop front is open.

It was interesting to see DTTS say, 'PC Police' as a libertarian gent. Using a word that represents the authority of the state to describe the free speech of individual citizens. I am puzzled as to why none of this falls under free speech because it is absolutely that. The best thing is that the creator has openly invited people to evaluate and post their thoughts on the game. They'll even send people free copies in advance to do this! It is bizarre that here reviewers and commenters are being squashed from one side that they're not allowed to show corruption, bias or favouritism, and then are simultaneously being pushed back to erase all feelings and be objective.

DTTS, the guy has a passion and you've already got the baton out. What the fuck has he done to deserve you laying into him? He's written about a change he'd like to see, a socially progressive change, in the medum of sci-fi, which is not at it's best when it's describing the operational range of a phaser, but exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and new civilisations. Sci-Fi has also been mostly a masculine treehouse for a long time too. Except Star Trek, in my experience. Space travel is taken for granted in a lot of sci-fi. Someone writes an article about transhumanism and you're offended. Read again how offended you got about an article that just existed to suggest a change. I'm emotional, what's your excuse?

I was trying to think about where this love of objectivity would come from. It's a bizarre thing to fetishise and I was a bit stuck. Then I remember that Ayn Rand was absolutely furious with most philosophers because they questioned the nature of everything and she had to put her foot down and say, "No, if I say I'm right then I'm right, A is A and I'm going to lay out the society for very smart people who are practicioners of alwaysrightism." I think she was wrong, objectivity is a bit silly, and in critical opinion it's ludicrous.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 10:16 AM

lol

Are you on drugs? Free speech means I support the right of people I disagree with to say disagreeable things. It does not mean I have to like it.

You must be absolutely out of your mind on drugs if you can't understand that the PC culture is one that attacks speech at every possible chance. They are anti-speech and anti-expression. This isn't quantum physics, this is basic basic fact. I oppose the agenda, not the utterance of said agenda.

I do not seek a government solution to put an end to speech I do not like. I do not make threats of violence toward these people. I just disagree with them.

Rewrite that entire poorly thought-out post if you want to engage me in a discussion.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 10:30 AM

TheRogerer made a game about rape simulation and someone complained it was too rapey. Now he makes games about consensual sex. What a sheep.

:D

TheRogerer made a game about a 7 year old girl with super-powers fighting a multi-national corporation and someone complained that the girl was white and was not a Lesbian. He explained that she was 7 and far too young to really know what she preferred, but he agreed to change her race to appease the critics. He made her black, but did not change the dialogue or gender influence. The critics complained that her skin color did not reflect the expected cultural norms (ie. stereotypes) and told you how insulting it is to make black people too white. The proponents of child sexuality continued to complain that she wasn't able to express her desire or experiment with her body. TheRogerer then rewrote the dialogue with a black writer, but was adamant about how the 7 year old child should not have a "sexual identity". Now with a proper PC approved protagonist the critics complain that she uses violence to overcome her attackers who are predominately male, why not just teach men not to attack young women they ask? TheRogerer, being the good progressive that he is, redesigns the game from the ground up as a way to teach violent thugs not to rape, discriminate or judge anyone at anytime for any reason. Then he includes a masturbation mini-game. GamerMagazineonline gives the game 5 stars, but nobody aside from the niche enjoys it.

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 11:03 AM

The spin that we are the ones against free speech is innovative, I admit.

Your notion of people infiltrating it doesn't work for me. There's nothing to infiltrate, unless you view gaming as a refuge, a closed society, a tree house. The shop front is open.

Not just gaming, many other groups and industries. And yes, when outsiders who don't seem to share the common interests/goals of the collective make moves against the collective under guise of improving the collective - the collective has been 'infiltrated'. Sorry if it sounds malicious but that's what it is.

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 11:27 AM

Who is the collective? The developers or the audience? Because the audience is the world. How can you be an outsider to a mass produced product stacked at the door of Walmart? It is pop culture. It is multi million dollar advertising budgets. Is Arthur Gies somehow an outsider? Why is Anita Sarkeesian an outsider? She's an 18-35 tech savvy American. Am I an infiltrator?

Don't think I've seen DTTS break as much as this. He's acting like me. Polemic is everything. All the chess pieces go back in the same box.

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 12:16 PM

Don't simplify what I'm saying. There are markets, demographics, niche interests. This is fact.

And when people who have little interest in the core expectations and culture of any given group, while trying to subvert it, they are outsiders. Call it a boys club. Call it a women's club. Doesn't matter.

Sarkeesian is an outsider because she doesn't know how games work, while taking what she thinks and running with it. It's not because she's a woman (we have those). It's not even because she's feminist (we have those too). It's because she doesn't know the industry. And the running theme with people like her is they take their uninformed viewership and make proclamations about what they think are problems and solutions. I can talk about why Anita is pedestrian all day; beginning with her hilariously erroneous definition of fail states and endgame goals. She wondered why you couldn't call EMTs after a person is killed in Watch_Dogs. This is not something a core gamer would say. It's not a progressive or enlightened thought. It's something somebody who doesn't understand goal progression in games would think. She showed her lack of understanding while 'critiquing' Assassins Creed as well, wondering why a mission constantly saw a villain kidnapping and killing women in one mission.

It's a soft fail state, Anita, it loops until you find a stealthy way to stop the badguy. She and her supporters may think she found a crushing example of why a game is sexist, but AssCreed players who watched her video just saw her (or whoever) play the game incorrectly.

And no; don't even think about saying she was only playing it a certain way to highlight a problem. Her argument was not the restructure of fail states - she did not understand why the game looped the challenge. I watched her videos. All of them. I would not say she doesn't know what she's talking about to slight her or belittle her argument. I'm not saying saying she's an outsider as some kneejerk reaction to a woman reviewing game mechanics. It's my conclusion. My critique of her work.

If she wants to highlight issues with games, it would behoove her to educate herself about how and why certain genres work the way they do. I hope that answer your questions.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 12:18 PM

Who is the collective? The developers or the audience? Because the audience is the world. How can you be an outsider to a mass produced product stacked at the door of Walmart? It is pop culture. It is multi million dollar advertising budgets. Is Arthur Gies somehow an outsider? Why is Anita Sarkeesian an outsider? She's an 18-35 tech savvy American. Am I an infiltrator?

Don't think I've seen DTTS break as much as this. He's acting like me. Polemic is everything. All the chess pieces go back in the same box.

"Acting like me" as an insult. I think you're done here, my child.

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 12:41 PM

She wondered why you couldn't call EMTs after a person is killed in Watch_Dogs. This is not something a core gamer would say. You're right. It's something a child, or an adult, or someone with something new or vital to say. I'm sure a woman watching you game has asked such a question, and I'm sure you snorted with derision. Haven't you heard there are no stupid questions? You wouldn't hear it from someone who just trudges through game after game, accepting the status quo and the contrivances again and again and again. I welcome it. Fuck this 'core gamer', he can stick his Doritos up his arse. Games are costing more and getting more and more homogenised. The Spectrum and Commodore had an unbelievable rainbow of crazy, imaginative games. I've watched it get dumber over the years.

What you think of as this 'collective' is just tribal stagnation. You know why genres become niche? Because they're no longer appealing on their own - they rely on nostalgia, habit and people who stopped expecting new things.

The defence of this sort of idea, of 'core' gamers, is something that everyone should try and break out of. I become more and more conscious of how dumb games are. Destiny feels like a peak. There are so many things in destiny that don't make any intuitive sense whatsoever. Why is this here? Because another game did it, that is an answer you'll hear again and again looking at Destiny. We're sleepwalking. Be fucking grateful that someone has the interest to question it.

I've been gaming longer than you, I typed my first code to make a game as soon as I could learn to read. If you want to play this tribe shit, then it's you that's on my turf. And I want the petty minded manchildren out of MY gaming. Except I don't really. You can play in the treehouse all you want. There will be more than enough of the same stories, over and over again, coming. Kill and kill again.

Ruien

11-08-2014, 12:46 PM

This thread use to be awesome. Now it is this :'(

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 12:52 PM

"Acting like me" as an insult. I think you're done here, my child.I'm glad you see absolutely nothing negative about acting like TheRogerer. It really warms my heart.

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 12:55 PM

You wouldn't hear it from someone who just trudges through game after game, accepting the status quo and the contrivances again and again and again. I welcome it.

Oh yes what we've been doing is trudge through game after game. We've never challenged the status quo and "contrivances" concerning game mechanics. You are correct. And by correct I mean off your rocker.

What you think of as this 'collective' is just tribal stagnation. You know why genres become niche? Because they're no longer appealing on their own - they rely on nostalgia, habit and people who stopped expecting new things.

So what?

You really think games are some sort of social service, do you?

The defence of this sort of idea, of 'core' gamers, is something that everyone should try and break out of. I become more and more conscious of how dumb games are. Destiny feels like a peak. There are so many things in destiny that don't make any intuitive sense whatsoever. Why is this here? Because another game did it, that is an answer you'll hear again and again looking at Destiny. We're sleepwalking. Be fucking grateful that someone has the interest to question it.

She's not questioning anything concerning game design (and certainly not intuitive options/UI... HA!). I'm starting to think you don't actually watch her videos. Hell, what you;ve said about Destiny is more informed and valid than any of her vids so far.

On the core gaming thing; how identifying groups work is you see the trends and label them after the fact. Nobody just out and said these are core gamers and these are casuals. Nor is it a hard rule - but you have to recognize trends. There are people who drop 20+hrs a week on gaming, and most of them play certain types of genres. Conversely, there are people who spend a few hours a week on games, and there's also correlation between the genres they play. If you're a game company you would be risking a great deal pretending these groups are the same because of outliers and exceptional cases, all because some people don't like that there are core gamers and casual gamers overall.

I've been gaming longer than you, I typed my first code to make a game as soon as I could learn to read. If you want to play this tribe shit, then it's you that's on my turf. And I want the petty minded manchildren out of MY gaming.

Then code yourself something that moves the industry away from us manchildren until the most profitable action is to service non-manchildren. Take it back.

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 12:59 PM

And I'm not posting that last little challenge to shift the goal post, like anybody could just up and make a game. I said that, as I did with EGC about the mental illness/film thing, because that is the language of change in these industries. I feel a great many things are sub-par in certain genres. I've written some blogs and posts here about them, but these are also things that sell. At some point I know if I firmly believe something should work a certain way and it would light a fire in that genre I gotta put the damn thing together or support people who are speaking my language. Actions speak louder than words and barring that - money talks. That's why I asked if you think gaming is some kind of social service.

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 01:02 PM

I'll code a JS script that hides all your posts. Outside of that, 'Do better' is empty bootstrappy rhetoric. You wrote a big article to Bungie telling them why they should put the sword in Destiny, why didn't you just make your own MMO shooter with a sword? Huh?

I don't know what you mean as a social service? I think games are entertaining but they're also generally really stupid. They put stories in these games with the purpose of making them appealing experiences and ultimately, they want my money. If they want my money then I'm allowed to make a decision on whether their story is good or bad or smart or dumb or whatever. I can write about that. I can talk about trends. I can guess as to why they wrote things this way or that. A lot of decisions are stupid, and they only appeal to an audience who don't know any better, so the whole thing becomes an echo chamber. I feel like I grew up and they didn't necessarily grow up with me. These games are sold around their story - at this point it's the only thing that differentiates many of them - so it's almost the most important thing. Is every story about a sociopath with a gun?

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 01:15 PM

Dear TheRogerer,

I don't hate you. I don't think you're a bad person. I'm pretty sure you're a very generous and caring lover too.

Please, stop acting this way.

Sincerely,
DTTS

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 01:15 PM

I'll code a JS script that hides all your posts. Outside of that, 'Do better' is empty bootstrappy rhetoric. You wrote a big article to Bungie telling them why they should put the sword in Destiny, why didn't you just make your own MMO shooter with a sword? Huh?

Funny you say that. :)

But I'm glad you mentioned my post (which can be found right here on my blog >>> HERE (http://kalyxtriad.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/destiny-swords-for-heavy-weapon-class/)!!), because it highlights the difference between criticism and solution orientation from an informed person versus an uninformed person (why can't I ride the ambulance with hurt people in this shooting game).

These games are sold around their story - at this point it's the only thing that differentiates many of them - so it's almost the most important thing. Is every story about a sociopath with a gun?

I disagree with this. *sips tea*

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 01:16 PM

And I'm not posting that last little challenge to shift the goal post, like anybody could just up and make a game. I said that, as I did with EGC about the mental illness/film thing, because that is the language of change in these industries. I feel a great many things are sub-par in certain genres. I've written some blogs and posts here about them, but these are also things that sell. At some point I know if I firmly believe something should work a certain way and it would light a fire in that genre I gotta put the damn thing together or support people who are speaking my language. Actions speak louder than words and barring that - money talks. That's why I asked if you think gaming is some kind of social service.

Making games is serious business, Kal.

We must make sure that all games made are in line with the accepted social views...just like in science fiction.

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 01:17 PM

Oh I know it's serious business.

I'm all about... Serious Business.

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 01:17 PM

Making games is serious business, Kal.

We must make sure that all games made are in line with the accepted social views...just like in science fiction.You're not allowed to say that! As a qualified insider and certified game maker I disqualify your opinion and give it the RED CARD. You're outta here!

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 01:19 PM

I did not know you were a coder, though. I wonder; would you approach a game project story first or gameplay?

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 01:20 PM

Both. Sometimes you have a notion that you want to communicate via the medium of gameplay. Sometimes you think 'Nobody's made anything like Cannon Fodder since Cannon Fodder'

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 01:20 PM

Making games is serious business, Kal.

We must make sure that all games made are in line with the accepted social views...just like in science fiction.http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/190/e/9/conservative_brony_by_tegthethird-d56l1hb.jpg

I feel you brother

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 01:21 PM

Both. Sometimes you have a notion that you want to communicate via the medium of gameplay. Sometimes you think 'Nobody's made anything like Cannon Fodder since Cannon Fodder'

Interesting.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 01:57 PM

When making a story do you pull out your Social justice warrior checklist or do you let it happen organically?

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 02:00 PM

Stand down, private (or are you captain or whatever by now?); I was legitimately interested in what he thinks is important in game production. Doing my Prime Factors thing. We can find the source of rifts this way.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 02:05 PM

I'm the highest rank of all. Civilian.

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 02:05 PM

That's gay. Tell me your damn rank, soldier.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 02:06 PM

Seriously though, I will reword my question.

Do you write a story with the intent of conveying a social message or do you write what entertains you?

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 02:57 PM

Also, can you describe your reasoning for being anti-GamerGate? What is it about them that is bothering you so much?

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 02:59 PM

You're going to let him talk to you like that?

I wrote a text adventure about how disappointing a life focused around 3d printers would be. I think of mechanics and story quite separately. I would say that I usually try and stick with traditional mechanics in the stuff I make for a variety of reasons, bearing in mind a lot of the reason I'm making a game is more to test and sharpen my skills, or get to grips with a certain technology. Making things happen on a screen presents a number of problems that are educational to solve. You can bung any old story in there if you want to.

If I think of a story first, then I want to tell something quite distinct that I don't think I've seen before. Papers Please is probably the best example of this I've played within the last year. That is something I wish I had made.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 03:04 PM

I like text adventures in general btw.

May I continue asking questions in the hopes that I can better understand your over-all thinking on this?

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 03:07 PM

I will add to that in that a game like Papers, Please is practically perfect because the mechanics ARE the story. They are intwined in a way that places you inside that scenario and the rules of the game force decisions that match up to the scenario that the player character is in. It's not just a game about shooting that has cutscenes and audio clips giving exposition between shooting sessions.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 03:09 PM

I still have to play it. I was obsessed with text games throughout my childhood. I, Damiano is probably my favorite. Ended up finding the book it was based on when I was in high-school at a used book store.

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 03:13 PM

I will deign to answer your questions, although you are an outsider. Please complete a NDA form and wear your black lanyard at all times.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 03:15 PM

Two steps ahead of you. I already filed the i983 forms and received my Press Badge.

Do you have a problem with Kalyx and the gamer gate movement? If so, why?

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 03:34 PM

My short prelude answer is yes. Like all good hatred, it is a projection of personal guilt

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 03:41 PM

What about Kal's position do you dislike? What would you advise the Gamer Gate people to do?

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 04:09 PM

Stop shooting themselves in the foot and everyone wins. Sarkeesian's Tropes vs Videogames received a massive dose of it's funding after it was DDOSed by 4chan. She would be almost nobody if it were not for the boatloads of sympathy people end up having for her. Also any GG I meet will state that it's not about harassment or women, but when I came into this thread Kalyx was directly tweeting Anita telling her that she was wrong to feel harassed. My number 2 GGer keeps denying that it's about women but he first posted about it fuming about Zoe Quinn 'acting like a whore' and complaining, literally, about 'females in gaming'.

As I have also said, I think the supposed manifesto of gamergate is fundamentally misguided, and frankly just too silly. Also many members seem happy for a moral race to the bottom, justifying behavour by acting in the way that they disparage their enemies for. At that point, what separates you from what you hate?

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 04:27 PM

Can you point me to the post where Kal told someone she was wrong to feel harassed? Who is your #2 GGer? Do you think Kal is somehow sexist?

Do you think a majority of Gamer Gate members act in a way that is unethical? How would we go about figuring out the difference between a few fringe lunatics and a significant trend here?

What do you find silly about the "manifesto"?

I am still very ignorant of "gamer gate" on account of a shoddy memory. All I have defended is Kalyx's posts here which have been extremely clear and concise. I believe in giving credit where it's due. No one, from what I have seen, has really made the case against the group, and more often than not some people in this thread have willfully ignored Kal's points and explanations just to continue feeling the way they do.

The Rogerer

11-08-2014, 05:11 PM

I can't make a judgement on all the members of gamergate. My experience with Adam Baldwin is that he enjoys playing the cigar chomping Reaganite and he's addicted to arguing, and serious gamergaters should probably regret his involvement because he's a big shitehawke.

I don't think Anita's videos are very good. I thought her original youtube series was interesting enough and I was curious to see what money could to do them. I was pretty disappointed with the results there.

Anyway, the real problem with GG is that a)with the best will in the world, it will never be able to separate itself from the Zoe Quinn stuff, b)it's a breeding ground for shitehawkes on both sides and c)as I say, I think talking about objectivity and journalistic ethics just has no place in something that is enthusiast press, and I really cannot shake the feeling that the core arguments about this really are a disproportionate response to radical feminism. Tumblrites and these 'SJW' people, if I must, do often have a shocking lack of perspective and are probably contributing a fair amount of shit.

If all things are equal, and nobody commited any wrongdoing, I would still be against the aims of gamergate. Trying to place this at the feet of the press, now, doesn't make any sense. Gaming press had a power over the industry and a position to abuse it in the 90s. This was in reponse to their relevance at the time. Gaming press is now less and less relevant and any consumer is in a position to completely bypass them, not only from the wide range of opinions out there, but also the opportunity to instantly watch masses of streamed footage of a game, which probably gives the best impression on it's quality without any editorial interference.

To then complain to care about a lower review score because of a personal quabble that a reviewer has:

a)tries to deny the inherent personal subjective experience of engaging these things, which you'll never be able to successfully do and so it's better to meet it head on than try to repress it
b)implies that there's some sort of dishonesty from the perspective of the reviewer
c)tries to paint the notion of the 'core' gamer being the true voice, when that's a self defeating perspective as it is
d)plays into the hands of, as I said, people putting boobs in games because it takes money out of your pocket

I say let everyone have their say. I love reading reviews of things that hate what I love. I love reading reviews that love what I hate. Let my opinion change. I go back to things I played or watched or read years ago and I look at it in a whole new light, with my experience and age. I would crumple up those old reviews I wrote. We're young and dumb.

Aside from the logical fallacy fencing and freedom of speech and what not, GamerGate is just too embroiled in the origins of attacks against women, regarding an industry that has historically been a young boys club, and that's something I've always been conscious of. Once it got onto twitter and forums, it's too hard to pin it down to anything after that. The root of it is still that it too often gets away from what it pretends to be about, and I think what it claims to be about isn't good either. It doesn't make sense. Games journalism is already defanged. It's future is to be as subjective as possible. My favourite reviewer is Tim Rogers. His reviews are about 50,000 words long and usually end up mostly talking about what he was doing in the mid 90s or how the game reminds him of playing Mario 3. He is also absurdly game intelligent and is able to dissect the experience in a way that cuts right to the core. Objectivity means nothing to a Tim Rogers review.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 05:39 PM

That seems pretty fair and concise (size withstanding). I'd like to see what Kal feels about it, but I will say a few words that I think are appropriate.

Diversity of thought is incredibly important in any organization. My favorite quote and one I used on all my email signatures at work is by Patton, "If every one is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking."

The industry SHOULD be challenged. People should be expressing their opinions and questioning the status quo. I also believe people should be pushing back, having that public debate in the economy of ideas so that the best ones succeed and the lesser ones fade. I think a group of consumers coming together and forming a lobby (as in political lobby) is a good idea. I wish every consumer group had a lobby fighting for them right now, because as of right now it is incredibly difficult to break into gaming. Viral game hits are wonderful and all, but how many indie gamers really make anything comparable to main stream production companies (real question, I don't know).

One thing that really stands out to me is that I was asking myself the same question about the power that the game media has these days. As you pointed out, people can watch game footage on youtube and get a much better idea, much of the time, than a 3 page review as to whether or not they'll enjoy it. It'd be like if every movie that came out let people watch the first 30 minutes for free and then decide whether or not they want to pay. It'd be such a short investment of time and provide a better choice than believing that opinions of a movie critic.

Anyway, thank you TheRogerer for that explanation.

Vastardikai

11-08-2014, 05:52 PM

As an outsider, all I really see are the stated goals of GG vs. what they do to achieve said stated goals.

Are there serious issues with VG Journalism? Yes. Kalyx and I have both mentioned quite a few. But what how would going after game developers or critics help fix the flaws with VG Journalism? And the only Journalists again that they seem to go after are the folks who bitch about GG. How about go after the ones who kid-glove the new CoD that is at best marginally different from the old CoD? How about bitch about the companies who advertise a game showing cut-scenes or stills not used involving the game engine.

I quit really being serious about games in a very piecemeal fashion. I stand by my belief that the Skate series killed skateboarding games even more than the annualization of the Tony Hawk series did. Personally, I don't want realism. If I wanted to skateboard for real, I'd jump on a skateboard, fall off of it immediately and wear a cast on my arm for a couple of months. I really liked the music games, but that trend died off kind of quickly. I won't play another Madden game until they do a serious revamp of the engine that makes the play new and exciting. I hate FPS, and action RPGs feel really boring at the moment. Before I knew it, I wasn't really interested in playing video games anymore. (well, apart from Animal Crossing right now, but that's more boredom than anything else.) Getting old sucks. :(

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 05:55 PM

I have read Kal's criticisms about that sort of thing. I want to assume that's what GG is about, but I'm happy to wait for more info.

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 06:53 PM

My personal issues with games journalism, as anti-GGers I've met on Twitter have noted, seem to be much more agreeable than what GG is about. I've come across this support for my own issues with the industry so much it's made me rethink how much I participate in this mess. Not one anti-GG I had extended talks with had issue with issues I highlighted, I have noted this. The ones where me and GG meet most is journalism ethics, but honestly my personal issues are way beyond that. I consider myself a supporter still because I believe in the message.

I find myself in a weird position that some feminist may have been. Feminism says they're about equality, but their actions reek of double standards and female superiority. But what of the self identified feminist who's attachment to the name begins and ends with equality? She has nothing to do with the bint who tweeted #killallmen, or feminist groups who deny accused men rights while protecting accused women. People would say to that girl, "Equality isn't a feminist thing anyway, just believe in that and leave the baggage behind." I have said that.

So I'm in a real funny place where my own advice rears its head. I have noble intentions for the industry that people who hate GG completely agree with. I can champion the ethics in journalism, along with my more serious qualms, without considering myself GamerGate. As I said to the feminist a few weeks ago, the goal is much more important than the tag anyway.

That's where I am right now.

In a little bit I am going to respond to Rog's last big post. It's worth a reply.

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 07:17 PM

I can't make a judgement on all the members of gamergate. My experience with Adam Baldwin is that he enjoys playing the cigar chomping Reaganite and he's addicted to arguing, and serious gamergaters should probably regret his involvement because he's a big shitehawke.

I'm fine with him only as a fellow supporter of GG. I have a dislike for ever tweet he does outside of that. Love him on screen, but he's somebody I otherwise would not follow. actually, there's several people I'm only in league with by a strange bedfellows set-up. GG naturally gained the assist of conservatives because the politics being pushed back are hyper left. I'm a left guy myself, so in this bizarre thing I'm sided with people I otherwise wouldn't communicate with on a social. But I think this is a strength of a movement, if it's able to build bridges between ideologies.

And honestly; whenever something comes along and actually gets rivals to join forces, it's a huge hint that the joined forces may have some legit issues there. Righteous causes have a habit of featuring bitter rivals joined together as opposition. That's just my personal observation on history anyway.

Anyway, the real problem with GG is that a)with the best will in the world, it will never be able to separate itself from the Zoe Quinn stuff

Sad but true.

b)it's a breeding ground for shitehawkes on both sides

How is this a specific problem with GG? This can be an issue with any movement ever. And can GG be blamed for creating assholes on the other side?

c)as I say, I think talking about objectivity and journalistic ethics just has no place in something that is enthusiast press, and I really cannot shake the feeling that the core arguments about this really are a disproportionate response to radical feminism. Tumblrites and these 'SJW' people, if I must, do often have a shocking lack of perspective and are probably contributing a fair amount of shit.

I don't think GG wants objectivity in the sense you're thinking here. We know robots aren't writing these articles. Nobody's silly enough to mean that kind of objectivity. I don't even think GGers posit this a great deal anyway. It comes down to ethics. It was a lack of this that led to GG at the beginning, and there very simple things the journalists could have done to kill this before it started.

To then complain to care about a lower review score because of a personal quabble that a reviewer has...

I don't think GG is concerned about some guy giving a low score. You are talking about the Bayo2 thing, yes? I have explained what the problem was with that piece and it had nothing to do with the score.

The root of it is still that it too often gets away from what it pretends to be about, and I think what it claims to be about isn't good either.

I wanna ask; what would the line be in your mind where something goes from pretending to being?

GG funded a feminist game jam. GG raised money for anti-bullying awareness. GG put women forward when anti-GG kept telling them to stand down and be quiet (fancy that). GG showcased the true diversity of the gaming community when anti-GG kept pushing their 'gamers are all white sexist' narrative. Every journalist who has had equal communication with both sides almost always notes how GG treated them great while anti-GG were shockingly harsh (the latest case being YTer David Packman).

At what point, to you, does this illusion of being a good cause become a good cause? Is there any action GG can take, for you, that would finally separate it from it's complicated origins (it was not about harassing a women, as somebody who seen this unfold live, but I'm done arguing this info)? Why can't you measure the good over the bad? Is it that you don't care about the lives that were improved because of us? Cancer research, female developers, people of color speaking out; are these not things you find impressive?

Kalyx triaD

11-08-2014, 07:19 PM

I have read Kal's criticisms about that sort of thing. I want to assume that's what GG is about, but I'm happy to wait for more info.

Vast is on the money about the hegemony of gaming mechanics and aesthetics. I'd go farther and say is kinda ruined the HD era of gaming. We'll see what this generation goes, so far so good.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 07:37 PM

I feel like I understand a lot more now. Have a good one you two.

And thank you again TheRogerer.

Swiss Ultimate

11-08-2014, 11:34 PM

Um...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WarOnWhites?src=hash">#WarOnWhites</a> is all around you! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/uniteblue?src=hash">#uniteblue</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/gamergate?src=hash">#gamergate</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/lorettalynch?src=hash">#lorettalynch</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/webacked?src=hash">#webacked</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/labour?src=hash">#labour</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/tcot?src=hash">#tcot</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/pjnet?src=hash">#pjnet</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/election2014?src=hash">#election2014</a> <a href="http://t.co/D8sfyjoE1D">pic.twitter.com/D8sfyjoE1D</a></p>— End Cultural Marxism (@genophilia) <a href="https://twitter.com/genophilia/status/531288244747767808">November 9, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/SQ71AVFVFdU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>What is Cultural Marxism?

See: <a href="http://t.co/2DvR8DH7IC">http://t.co/2DvR8DH7IC</a>

<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CulturalMarxism?src=hash">#CulturalMarxism</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Marxism?src=hash">#Marxism</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/tcot?src=hash">#tcot</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ukip?src=hash">#ukip</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/edl?src=hash">#edl</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/waronwhites?src=hash">#waronwhites</a> <a href="http://t.co/pOnbYobPWQ">pic.twitter.com/pOnbYobPWQ</a></p>— End Cultural Marxism (@genophilia) <a href="https://twitter.com/genophilia/status/530512665840717824">November 7, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Kalyx triaD

11-09-2014, 01:49 AM

wtf

Vastardikai

11-09-2014, 01:52 AM

"Cultural Marxism" sounds like something made up by a Neo-Nazi

Kalyx triaD

11-09-2014, 01:53 AM

Funny you say that.

The Rogerer

11-09-2014, 04:59 AM

I wanna ask; what would the line be in your mind where something goes from pretending to being?

GG funded a feminist game jam. GG raised money for anti-bullying awareness. GG put women forward when anti-GG kept telling them to stand down and be quiet (fancy that). GG showcased the true diversity of the gaming community when anti-GG kept pushing their 'gamers are all white sexist' narrative. Every journalist who has had equal communication with both sides almost always notes how GG treated them great while anti-GG were shockingly harsh (the latest case being YTer David Packman).

At what point, to you, does this illusion of being a good cause become a good cause? Is there any action GG can take, for you, that would finally separate it from it's complicated origins (it was not about harassing a women, as somebody who seen this unfold live, but I'm done arguing this info)? Why can't you measure the good over the bad? Is it that you don't care about the lives that were improved because of us? Cancer research, female developers, people of color speaking out; are these not things you find impressive?I acknowledge those actions coming out of GG, and I'm not trying to discredit them, but they came at a time when GG had expanded so much that practically everyone was involved one way or another. I've taken flak for my views before but I've said that charity is often used as a modern day version of buying indulgences from the church. I won't discredit it though, just say as I did before that by this point it's really hard to define what GG even is any more.

My original GG quarrel on rajah started because I was drawn into it with the first post. It started with him posting the 'Five Guys' video, ranting about how sick he was that this whore was getting away with it and that somebody should do something. I don't particularly want to brand him with the big misogynist iron, but throughout the following weeks, when he wasn't just reposting labyrinthian composite images of twitter, he would let some really weird things about women slip out. Nobody's simple.

So I already came into this thread with my dukes up. What really posted me over the top was the link to your twitter, seeing you directly message femfreq with a pompous challenge of telling her that her suffering was relativistic and you should see how [my ebonies] have it. Whatever you think of Anita, you know how many message a second she already gets, and I felt as bad for her as I did for you getting swept up in that sort of thing. I don't think everyone sits around plotting evil, I think we get swept up in things. I don't post on twitter any more because I think it's inherently a horrible medium, and it touched me somewhat. Bloody hell, I felt uncomfortable when DTTS posted a weird article about me in the music forum, so I can only imagine what it feels like for Anita. This is the way of the world, it's fine and it's not that bad, but you did this and you labelled it #gamergate, you refer to them as 'we' and I think you should unplug from that collective. I've always felt that way, it gives people false confidence. I've apologised for throwing a few closed fists your way - at the end of the day I figure that TPWW is a closed environment so to a degree roughhousing is within context. We don't have the whole world piling on

About actual gamergate now...

I think it's too big and doesn't make sense any more. The actions of bombarding advertisers to get them to pull from gamasutra/gawker is fine in isolation, but ultimately silly too. In a way it's a sort of endorsement of advertising funded coverage by trying to police that field into something that suits your goals. However advertising funded press is the number 1 thing that's holding coverage back from being what it could be.

It reminds me of the '"'lefts'"' No To Page 3 campaign in a way. They think they're dealing a blow to feminism by taking the topless women out of newspapers, instead I think it's just a tokenistic strike agains the working class, and ultimately it says "We'll accept this paper when that's taken out!" It's a fucking Murdoch rag! The topless women are the only honest thing in the paper, they're very strict about their implant rules. Everything else in it is dodgy mass media spin, and by asking them to remove Page 3 they're endorsing them as an otherwise legitimate medium.

What was the point of that? It's hard to have a movement (especially after that pizza) that knows what it wants. Like I said, taking all negative aspects out of gamergate, if I was going to be an activist about the industry you'd more likely see me writing to publishers, not crying for coverage. We don't need to change the press at all, we don't even need to destroy them because we can ignore them.

That's without talking about how absolutely boring the constant stream of porny women in games are.

Kalyx triaD

11-09-2014, 01:07 PM

My tweets toward Anita are my tweets toward her. She's a grown woman. When you're twitter you're speaking to the world, and sometimes the world talks back. I'm sorry but she knows what she's doing and doesn't need your protection. She can block me whenever she wants.

The Rogerer

11-09-2014, 01:27 PM

Sorry I'll get off my steed. As Marcus Aurelius would say the victim loses nothing, it's the perp that compromises themself. Throwing shade at me doesn't change how you were acting. It wasn't good for you either.

Kalyx triaD

11-09-2014, 01:32 PM

I don't feel I've said anything out of turn. I don't need to delete anything and you're welcome to post tweets that you feel are out of line. I will defend each of them or concede if I see it's kinda wild.

Kalyx triaD

11-09-2014, 01:33 PM

We're getting into a realm of implicating me with the harassment, and if you wanna take it there I hope you're ready to discuss that.

The Rogerer

11-09-2014, 03:02 PM

It doesn't matter if it's harassment or not. It's not a good thing to be a part of. You wouldn't have done it if everyone else wasn't doing it.

Swiss Ultimate

11-09-2014, 03:02 PM

Neither is making feminist critiques of video-games.

The Rogerer

11-09-2014, 03:04 PM

Neither is making feminist critiques of video-games.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/LS37SNYjg8w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Swiss Ultimate

11-09-2014, 03:06 PM

Every time someone tells someone else that they shouldn't exercise free speech because it isn't good for them, I am reminded how self-serving people can be.

The Rogerer

11-09-2014, 03:10 PM

Every time someone tells someone else that they shouldn't exercise free speech because it isn't good for them, I am reminded how self-serving people can be.This is an automated response to a DTTS post. Stop talking, you're being emotional. Just shut up and come back when you're speaking sense.

Swiss Ultimate

11-09-2014, 03:11 PM

ok.

The Rogerer

11-09-2014, 03:15 PM

Kalyx, I'm not labelling you, I'm just trying to work out what was going through your head when you wrote your "ebonies and latinas" thing. Because it was as pompous as it gets. Forget her for a moment, everyone has to answer for their own actions lest they just be devolving into a game of tit for tat. Do you not think you were getting a little bit swept up in the crowd there? It's public behaviour. I regret everything in my entire life, I'm more worried if you don't think those tweets seem silly on reflection.

Swiss Ultimate

11-09-2014, 03:21 PM

Tweets are silly by design. It is hard to put meaningful rational arguments into 140 characters.

Kalyx triaD

11-09-2014, 04:25 PM

It doesn't matter if it's harassment or not. It's not a good thing to be a part of. You wouldn't have done it if everyone else wasn't doing it.

Nah buddy you took it to this point and I'd like you to follow through. And it damn sure matters if it's harassment or not because if you're trying to tell me I was 'being mean'; fuck that get over it.

And I've tweeted to Anita way before GamerGate. You wanna take a look at my tweets to build a case - take a look at my tweets. Let's do this.

Do you not think you were getting a little bit swept up in the crowd there? It's public behaviour. I regret everything in my entire life, I'm more worried if you don't think those tweets seem silly on reflection.

Nope, I stand by it.

These Bay area hipster kids are talking about how dangerous their lives are, all over non-credible threats. It is incomparable to what minority women deal with on a day to day. Not one credible threat. Nobody hurt. Ever. I was reacting to that NYC "street harassment" vid going around. I was vexed at the time, I'll admit that much.

Swiss Ultimate

11-09-2014, 04:29 PM

O/T What was your take on the NYC Street Harassment video and the ensuing backlash?