I have a question about Gamergate

[Poit]

Is there a list anywhere of the targets of Gamergate?

And, if this becomes the "official" Gamergate thread, I'm good with that. It seems kinda out of place in the general news thread.

[Kalyx triaD]

What do you mean by "targets"? The advertisers and PR firms? There's email lists I can find for ya.

[road doggy dogg]

I'm still confused how a game rating on a video game website is justification for some people to send death and rape threats to females in the industry. Absolutely deplorable behaviour.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Can we make this the official gamegate thread? Don't really want to hear about it.

[Kalyx triaD]

@roaddoggy

That is not a GG issue. We don't condone threats of any type to anybody. There has always been trolls of this sort way before GG started.

[road doggy dogg]

Well unfortunately, they seem to be the most vocal bunch associating themselves with the movement.

What is supposed to be the message of the movement anyway? I've tried reading up on it but Twitter is terrible for that.

[Kalyx triaD]

Mainly journalistic integrity, but it's growing into improving several facets of gaming media and culture. End to harassment/bullying, transparency between companies and news sites, greater diversity, more women speaking up for themselves, etc.

Every time a new smear embargo is lifted; a new goal is added. GG would not have as positive a message it has if the game journos didn't try so hard to smear the group as a whole.

But yeah, the assholes are poisoning the well. Both sides got major harassment.

[Poit]

What do you mean by "targets"? The advertisers and PR firms? There's email lists I can find for ya.

Well, Zoe Quinn was the first, right?

[Kalyx triaD]

No.

[Kalyx triaD]

We don't "target" people like that. I can explain how Zoe Quinn was involved in creating GG, though. If you wish.

[Poit]

Can you please elaborate? I'd never heard of Gamergate before her.

[drave]

What people do you, as in "we", target?

[road doggy dogg]

Mainly journalistic integrity, but it's growing into improving several facets of gaming media and culture. End to harassment/bullying, transparency between companies and news sites, greater diversity, more women speaking up for themselves, etc.

Every time a new smear embargo is lifted; a new goal is added. GG would not have as positive a message it has if the game journos didn't try so hard to smear the group as a whole.

But yeah, the assholes are poisoning the well. Both sides got major harassment.

See, when I hear that, it sounds like something worth sticking up for.

But the large majority of what I have been reading is painting it as a bunch of 4channers threatening and posting private information of a few females within the industry.

Very difficult to ascertain what each side's message is when sifting through tweets.

[Kalyx triaD]

Okay...

Once upon a time (bout two months ago) Zoe Quinn's ex boyfriend posted an epic expose on their relationship, detailing her multiple affairs with several men. What made this interesting was that two of the men; one a writer for Kotaku and the other her boss. Keep in mind Quinn is a developer who's game "Depression Quest" was greenlit to the chagrin of other devs on Steam. The Kotaku writer having written about Quinn 'before' their relationship and her messing around with her boss raised eyebrows.

YouTube user MundaneMatt made a video of the above jilted lover post and Zoe Quinn had it DMCA's (that is, taken down for copyright). Matt had used a single image from her game (legally) but in any case reuploaded the vid without the image. Her attempt to have the vid taken down, of course, did not seem like a copyright issue - as Depression Quest is free to obtain on Steam. At the same time this was happening there was a dead silence about the Quinn Post on gaming sites, who usually have no issue reporting on devs sex scandals.

That coupled with Quinn's thing with a Kotaku writer sprouted a demand for answers about how journalists behave with their subjects. The ensuing investigations revealed a deep well of shit that runs pretty deep. And so we have GamerGate.

Quinn herself was revealed to have smeared a game jam that wanted to get women devs to make games. She had a problem with that and had her fans(?) hack the site and nearly killed the charity. 4chan, of all places, saved the game jam allowing women to make some games. Basically she's kinda dastardly.

But Quinn isn't important to GG as she is not a journalist or anybody of particular power who can enact good or bad change. Any harassment she gets are from troll opportunist and GG wishes her safety like anybody else. This of course doesn't stop her from coming out with random jabs at GG but whatever.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/C5-51PfwI3M?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This vid covers the issue at the start. Many things changed since then of course but the video does paint why she seemed important to casual onlookers til this day.

[Kalyx triaD]

What people do you, as in "we", target?

The advertisers and PR firms? There's email lists I can find for ya.

See, when I hear that, it sounds like something worth sticking up for.

But the large majority of what I have been reading is painting it as a bunch of 4channers threatening and posting private information of a few females within the industry.

Very difficult to ascertain what each side's message is when sifting through tweets.

Yeah Twitter makes it very hard to follow. 4chan is no longer becoming a factor since moot (the owner) was revealed to be on the game journo side and attended an SJW conference. People who used 4chan 'migrated' to 8chan where they can speak freely about the subject.

People are being doxxed on both sides. Literally no game site (and now mainstream news) reports on the harassment GG supporters have received. The difference in what's reported and what's happening would blow your mind.

I'm glad you're doing due diligence, though. Most people see a female dev speaking about 'nerd men' harassing her and that's all they need to hear.

[Kalyx triaD]

To elaborate my answer to drave; we try to send letters to advertisers and PR firms en masse to get them to dissociate with certain sites that marginalize and shame gamers, devs, and even other journalists. You may have heard that Intel pulled their ads from Gamasutra, which was one of the sites that posted a "Gamers Are Dead" article - part of a coordinated effort to get gamers off the issue. Didn't work.

[RoXer]

gaming sites, who usually have no issue reporting on devs sex scandals.

I don't think I have ever once read a gaming website publish an article about a sex scandal involving game developers

[RoXer]

was revealed to be on the game journo side and attended an SJW conference.

What is defined as an "SJW conference" and what is wrong with attending one?

[RoXer]

That coupled with Quinn's thing with a Kotaku writer sprouted a demand for answers about how journalists behave with their subjects. The ensuing investigations revealed a deep well of shit that runs pretty deep. And so we have GamerGate.


Didn't Kotuku address this specially saying that nothing was wrong? (http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346)

Do you think they're lying? If so, why?

[Poit]

That is a long video. I'll finish watching it later. Some questions, though:

What is a SJW conference, and why is it bad?

Why did Quinn have a problem with the game jam?

While I disagree with the Gamasutra article, it doesn't seem so bad that it deserves loss of advertising as a consequence. Why would you have that as a goal?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I think GameJam's issues were signaling out women for the show was showing that they aren't already integrally apart of the video game industry. Making a show about a glass ceiling that might not exist basically the show was creating one by the image it was sending.

[Kalyx triaD]

I don't think I have ever once read a gaming website publish an article about a sex scandal involving game developers

http://kotaku.com/leisure-suit-larry-publisher-in-upheaval-after-strange-1481988709

And also, Brad Wardell was a more prominent event - it's used mainly to show a clear double standard on which 'game related' news is worth posting versus others:

http://kotaku.com/5940401/pc-gaming-studio-said-she-ruined-their-game-but-only-after-she-sued-the-boss-for-sexual-harassment

What made it ridiculous was that Kotaku actually linked to her court pleadings and posted emails devoid of any context. Anyone with experience in lawsuits can tell you that lawyers always make their pleadings paint the other person as a complete monster. The ones about me were no exception, and contained endless false allegations. A lawyer can make a ham sandwich appear to be the greatest threat in human history. That's their job. Kotaku shouldn't have linked to one-sides court pleadings. That was inappropriate and biased. This is the image that the article used.

https://twitter.com/draginol/status/504983018613006336

What is defined as an "SJW conference" and what is wrong with attending one?

Social Justice Warrior ideology has grown within game journalism. Many people find that it obscures the point (or at least the expectations) of why people go to these sites. It's why headlines went from "Tomb Raider is Cool But Controls Are Eh" to "Tomb Raider is Cool But Why is She Wearing Those Shorts". It's feminist agenda specifically, and far-left in general. They claim to fight for minorities/gender equality but recent events shown that this is not the case (at least for the ones in the spot light).

Nearly all the sites who participates in the gamer spearing campaign are all managed by a single PR firm (Silver String Media) which has ties to feminist academia (DIGRA). One article blasting gamers as misogynists is happenstance, two is coincidence, 10+ in two days is a media buff (http://image-cdn.gamnesia.com/17316/1409546711940__large.jpg). Yes, they are all under Silver String. Bear in mind gamers know how to recognize an 'embargo lift' when they see one. It was very coordinated in response to mass interest in journalistic ties.

So what's wrong with attending an SJW conference? Nothing really. The importance of who's connected to who is how 1) It shows GG wasn't just conspiracy baiting when we initially felt there was something amiss, and 2) It shows that the vilification of core gamers was in the wings of extreme liberalism and is quite strong. Threads about GamerGate were actively closed on 4chan - the website known for allowing almost anything. Then the owner was revealed to be in league with SJW's. That is an important and relevant catch.

It also explains why Anita Sarkeesian got purely positive coverage for her video series and next to no counter-arguments were given such coverage. My own blog post (http://kalyxtriad.wordpress.com/2014/08/31/gamer-isnt-dead-your-career-is-goodbye-game-journalists/) on GamerGate was replied with accusations of conspiracy theorist rhetoric - and right on time an article surfaced that revealed that these game journalists did in fact (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite) coordinate the suppression of the Quinn story - among other interesting things.

Didn't Kotuku address this specially saying that nothing was wrong? (http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346)

Do you think they're lying? If so, why?

Stephen Totilo saying "I've looked into it, nothing was wrong" is not something with a truth value. It could be that he truly feels nothing was wrong with his writer having a relationship with his subject. His senior editorial judgment that it's not wrong in itself can't be judged as truth or lie, it's his call. His site. We do think it's wrong, particularly when another writer of his promoted games from her girlfriend and her roommate on Kotaku without disclosing her personal relationships.

Kotaku is known as a gaming news site where journalism is expected. None of these findings would be wrong if Kotaku didn't see themselves as this. They get news site ad revenue and news site access to the industry, but they act as a personal blog. That's cool, but we're actively getting at their advertisers and the game publishers to cut ties. You simply can't call gamers rapists and compare them to ISIS while getting money from ads of games.

[Kalyx triaD]

That is a long video. I'll finish watching it later. Some questions, though:

What is a SJW conference, and why is it bad?

Not bad per se. I explain some in my reply to RoXer above.

Why did Quinn have a problem with the game jam?

She claims they were discriminate to trans-persons, which the runners of the game jam rejected. Some say Quinn just didn't like that they were focused on good games for good games sake rather than her ideals of games that push messages. Either case seems petty. I can link you closer looks to this particular situation if you wish in PMs. I fear I'm getting into DTTS levels of link bombing already. :-\

While I disagree with the Gamasutra article, it doesn't seem so bad that it deserves loss of advertising as a consequence. Why would you have that as a goal?

Intel specifically pulled their ads because of Gamasutra writer Leigh Alexander's hilariously toxic actions on Twitter.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/824/500/05d.png

Seriously she's hilarious. She calls for ending other writer's careers, made arguably racists comments, and desperately hates gamers. There are entire collages collecting her zaniest posts. On top of the article Gamasutra published, her actions were the nail in the coffin.

I think GameJam's issues were signaling out women for the show was showing that they aren't already integrally apart of the video game industry. Making a show about a glass ceiling that might not exist basically the show was creating one by the image it was sending.

I can vibe with that thought. The game jam was ran by quasi-feminist group "Fine Young Capitalists". 4chan and GG helped them complete the project, with the real point being gamers being misogynists just wasn't the case.

[Kalyx triaD]

Anita and Zoe also tried to persuade people not to donate to the game jam, even after it was revealed that some proceeds went to colon cancer research.

[Poit]

We do think it's wrong, particularly when another writer of his promoted games from her girlfriend and her roommate on Kotaku without disclosing her personal relationships.

I'd like to properly respond to this, but that is an incomprehensible series of pronouns. There's a woman who wrote a game, which Totilo promoted, and that woman from'ed her girlfriend and roommate on Kotaku?

[Poit]

Intel specifically pulled their ads because of Gamasutra writer Leigh Alexander's hilariously toxic actions on Twitter.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/824/500/05d.png

Seriously she's hilarious. She calls for ending other writer's careers, made arguably racists comments, and desperately hates gamers. There are entire collages collecting her zaniest posts. On top of the article Gamasutra published, her actions were the nail in the coffin.

And so, you Gamergate people wrote to Intel to ask that they stop advertising on sites where she posted articles?

[Poit]

By the way, I'm not ignoring the rest of your posts. It's just hard to reply to large posts with links while on my phone at work.

[Kalyx triaD]

I'd like to properly respond to this, but that is an incomprehensible series of pronouns. There's a woman who wrote a game, which Totilo promoted, and that woman from'ed her girlfriend and roommate on Kotaku?

lol Sorry, speed typing.

Kotaku writer Patricia Hernandez wrote two pieces on two different games. These games were designed by her girlfriend and roommate. It's possible Totilo had no idea of this. The articles have since added disclosures at their footnotes.

Hell, after Totilo's dismissal laced response, he came back later on with a much more reasoned and respectful response. He also recently went to twitter asking for people on the GG side who has been harassed for an article he's doing. He's shown massive improvement and while many others don't trust him, I dig it.

Personally, I feel he had no clue about his writer's conduct and was caught between downplaying the reveals or admitting he's running a circus. I kinda sympathize with him.

[Kalyx triaD]

And so, you Gamergate people wrote to Intel to ask that they stop advertising on sites where she posted articles?

Pretty much. Most of us have Intel products of some sort in our stuff and the only way we could really hit these guys and where it hurts. It wasn't until we were ignored by gaming media that we really resorted to hitting up companies.

Aside from an EA representative making a neutral-to-GG toned post, all of the big companies have been quiet. There was one anonymous Xbox developer who says the atmosphere in the company is largely GamerGate side, but since he can't speak officially I rather wait to see official responses.

Until then we gotta hit ad revenue.

[Kalyx triaD]

By the way, I'm not ignoring the rest of your posts. It's just hard to reply to large posts with links while on my phone at work.

It's cool. Funny thing is I'm trying really hard to give you the short versions of these events.

[Poit]

Earlier when I asked about "targets", I meant entities (people or companies) who Gamergate took action against in their mission to root out corruption. So, Zoe Quinn, Patricia Hernandez, etc. That's the list I'm interested in.

[Kalyx triaD]

Off the top of my head, these are the sites most closely related to the unethical actions we wanna root out (it hasn't been confirmed that there's corruption per se but people are looking into financial ties - there's some shit about Fez winning an indy games award that was... educational):

Kotaku (Ed: Stephen Totilo)
RockPaperShotgun
Polygon (Ed: Ben Kuchira, who is certainly on the darker side of things)
Gamasutra (where is Leigh Alexander is STILL employed)
Ars Technica.

[Kalyx triaD]

I'll try to get a decent list. There's no definitive 'enemy list' or anything.

[Kalyx triaD]

A very recent interview where GamerGate supporters and one sympathizer finally bring the other side of the argument to mainstream. This is after two wildly slanted interviews by HuffPost, CNN, and MSNBC days ago.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/HeJlodTHgb8?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/wUL8oz76kU0?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I've been on this since day-0. I have my reasons for why I didn't bring the fuss in here after nearly three months but since we got this thread, I will say again I'm open to whatever questions you got. I also urge you to take every word I say with heavy speculation. Challenge it. Force me to get evidence or do research to prove me wrong. I want you to take a deeper look if you want. I have no reason to slant you in any way.

Just please, don't believe the hype on game sites and mainstream media until you see they've given a voice to people on our side more often. It's no coincidence GG supporters are rarely heard outside of their own social spots and GG threads close left and right, while anti-GG get all the platform they need. But again, ask me whatever. Check stuff out. I can hook you up with some sweet vids, bro.

[Ruien]

So confused. Tried to keep up but to many abbreviated words that I did not know the meaning too. Is GamerGate a bunch of gamers, the people threatening to kill other people, or the feminist against gaming? Is all this just because of the "Hatred" game coming out?

What exactly do the feminist want?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

What was you tweet taken out of context?

[Heisenberg]

I'll try to get a decent list. There's no definitive 'enemy list' or anything.

http://i.imgur.com/czVpT.gif

[Destor]

After reading this thread, and this being the first ive ever heard of it, I've concluded that this is very stupid.

[Kalyx triaD]

What was you tweet taken out of context?

Oops, it was TechCrunch.

There was a hashtag weeks ago called 'WriteAKotakuArticle' where people had fun making headlines that parodied Kotaku's click-bait headlines. I did a few and ended with this:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/writeakotakuarticle?src=hash">#writeakotakuarticle</a>

&quot;You've Been Raping Lara Croft For Years And Here's Why&quot;</p>&mdash; Jean Kalyx (@Kalyx_triaD) <a href="https://twitter.com/Kalyx_triaD/status/507906702659035136">September 5, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Which led to a writer from TechCrunch taking offense (https://twitter.com/tiedtiger/status/507907375400222721) at what he alledges was a 'rape joke'. He would go on to mention it in his article (http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/07/the-gamergate-question/):

“gamergaters” are the far right. They’re our Tea Party equivalent, replete with all the same inclinations to see conspiracies where there are none and trying stamp out what’s considered fringe or weird by assaulting the people rather than the product while co-opting their language. #gamergaters portray themselves as “oppressed” by the fact there are some indie games out there that they don’t like. #gamergaters feel “betrayed” by the notion that maybe a journalist and a game developer slept together. #gamergaters give credence to all “evidence” that confirms their this-can’t-go-on mentality and ignore everything else. #gamergaters consider removal of their trolling comments “censorship”.

This stance has allowed them to rationalize almost any harassment and to engage in a wide variety of victim blaming. It’s what gave the #writeakotaku hashtag the spur to produce “funny” headlines to satirize the so-called agenda of the pushy media like this: [embeds my tweet]

Hilariously, a collage went viral amongst the GG community collecting actual alarmist Kotaku headlines with rape in the title. My parody was pitch perfect. I think I tweeted it to the writer, I forget.

http://i.imgur.com/czVpT.gif

Outta nowhere.

[Poit]

Mainly journalistic integrity, but it's growing into improving several facets of gaming media and culture. End to harassment/bullying, transparency between companies and news sites, greater diversity, more women speaking up for themselves, etc.

Every time a new smear embargo is lifted; a new goal is added. GG would not have as positive a message it has if the game journos didn't try so hard to smear the group as a whole.

But yeah, the assholes are poisoning the well. Both sides got major harassment.

Where in the goals of Gamergate are tasks such as flooding research surveys with harassing responses (http://jezebel.com/gamergate-trolls-arent-ethics-crusaders-theyre-a-hate-1644984010)?

What is a smear embargo?

If Gamergate supposedly has such a "positive message", why is it associated with so much harassment, threats, and so forth?

Stephen Totilo saying "I've looked into it, nothing was wrong" is not something with a truth value. It could be that he truly feels nothing was wrong with his writer having a relationship with his subject. His senior editorial judgment that it's not wrong in itself can't be judged as truth or lie, it's his call. His site. We do think it's wrong, particularly when another writer of his promoted games from her girlfriend and her roommate on Kotaku without disclosing her personal relationships.

Why do you not believe Totilo? What did Quinn do that was wrong?

Off the top of my head, these are the sites most closely related to the unethical actions we wanna root out (it hasn't been confirmed that there's corruption per se but people are looking into financial ties - there's some shit about Fez winning an indy games award that was... educational):

Kotaku (Ed: Stephen Totilo)
RockPaperShotgun
Polygon (Ed: Ben Kuchira, who is certainly on the darker side of things)
Gamasutra (where is Leigh Alexander is STILL employed)
Ars Technica.

So, wait, I'm confused. There's no confirmation of corruption, but you're going after these sites anyway?

[The Rogerer]

Haha what a surprise Kalyx is a GGer. It attracts robotic sociopathic idiot babies who think they're amazing.

Rockpapershotgun corrupt fucking lol

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

That Five guys video was sexist bullshit.

[drave]

Cries about GG and giving own thread. Watches vid and posts in GG thread.


GG STD.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Saw the video awhile ago and forgot to talk about it.

[Kalyx triaD]

Where in the goals of Gamergate are tasks such as flooding research surveys with harassing responses (http://jezebel.com/gamergate-trolls-arent-ethics-crusaders-theyre-a-hate-1644984010)?

It's lovely that you'd cite Jezebel of all of Gawker's sites. Part of Gawker's narrative is absolutely to spin anything and everything into 'GamerGate is evils'. But sure, let's look at this article.

My name is Jennifer Allaway. I'm a social researcher whose primary body of work consists of a study I did in 2013 on the prevalence of sexism in the game industry, and how it impacts game content. Since then I've been working on a new study on the importance of diversity in game content to game players, and whether or not the game industry is able to predict this desire

Game developers can be hard to reach for data collection, so a few different organizations have been passing around links to help me collect data for this study. By September 25th, I basically had all the data I needed.

She's going to have to do better than 'a few organizations gave her links'. And as for her email:

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Z0NeNQBC--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/gnhhamnutydr4c7hx5yv.png

Who targeted her project? She's saying it's GG, sure, but I don't recall any calls to target what sounds like a fairly unknown and secretive project of hers. How would any of us know about this, and then organize a disruption - into the "tens of thousands of entries" - and then how did this guy know? Did he catch a call to arms on Twitter? A GG thread? Perhaps a private GG thread that he 'infiltrated'?

You linked to an article from a biased site that itself links to nothing but study that reveals no intimate scale, that was warned from some guy based on whispers in the wind. But let's move on.

I went into 8chan—the movement's current and primary forum for coordinating their efforts...

lol no. Any and call call to arms (that are usually email campaigns to advertisers) are almost exclusively done on twitter; publicly and issued by anybody who thinks they have a good idea to contact companies. 8chan did get a rise in users after 4chan started closing GG threads left and right (see my post on Moot's involvement), but it is hardly a base of operations. But let's move on with her sleuthing:

...And found a discussion on a "secret developer survey," referring to my questions. It was getting passed around, accumulating criticisms and promises to respond. Within it I found the following comment, which confirmed my suspicions about what "vote brigading" meant.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--aoLtNTbV--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/fgflowjjodawpplqk2mf.png

In under four hours, the developer survey jumped from around 700 responses, which had been collected over the course of a month, to over 1100 responses. The responses were not nearly as subtle as the anonymous poster above urged. They ranged in their degree of racism and misogyny, but they all all ridiculed the project with dishonest mockery. It appeared that less than 5 percent of the new responses had actually come from developers.

Sounds pretty bad. This discussion (un-linked, of course) had something against her work and appeared to have struck. But there's no GG connection other than her erroneous belief that 8chan is our base. Her findings end right there. We have nothing but her word that GG organized this from 8chan. The word of a Gawker writer, who writes specifically on Gawker's most liberal social justice blog. Compare her standards of evidence to my big post a page ago when you questioned me about GamerGate.

I realized just how much I'd internalized the presumed process: if you're even asking about equality or diversity in games, being shouted down in a traumatizing manner is now a mandatory step that you have to sit back and endure.

And now comes the thesis of the piece. Most anti-GG articles go like this: "I hate GG wanna know why, look what I found, see what I mean, aren't they evil guys, we must stop GG."

Consider that right now their message is about how they tried to have a conversation and got shut down, but out in the open they do everything in their power not to have a public conversation. I mean, what would GG even have to gain shutting down her study? Perhaps the rest of the 8chan thread could light context- OH WAIT.

#Gamergate, as we know it now, is a hate group.

They know nothing but what they wanna know. Charities, game jams, calling out bullies, and helping to root out who dox'd and harassed Anita and Brianna - Never happened, we're a hate group. The rest of her article spins the history of our side to align with a study of how hate groups form and operate, which is a-whole-nother debate.

She ends on that note because how do we feel about hate groups? The nazis, KKKs, and Westboro's of the country? We dismiss them. We ignore them if possible. Don't look at them, they're evil. The difference is none of those groups waste time presenting themselves as anything other than what they are.

What, strategically speaking, do we have to gain talking about journalistic integrity and ending gamer shaming but the trying to scare writers out of the office? For what? What tactical mojo did we use to get the women and minorities we apparently hate to side with us? I just linked an interview that featured women on our side. How did we do that? Who do we hate, exactly?

Off the article, let's get back to your post.

What is a smear embargo?

It's just me combining article embargos and Silver Media's smear campaign against us. The multiple sites under this PR group released anti-gamer articles inside of two days, much like the lifting of preview embargoes on these same sites.

If Gamergate supposedly has such a "positive message", why is it associated with so much harassment, threats, and so forth?

That article you posted? That sort of thing is all the mainstream public knows about GamerGate. We have had next to no representation in media. A few smaller blogs and an interview here and there, but that's versus near daily anti-GG pieces by much better organized and funded companies. We were completely misrepresented on CNN for fuck sake.

Why do you not believe Totilo? What did Quinn do that was wrong?

1) I never said I didn't believe him. My last post about him mused about how him seeing nothing wrong with his writer's actions is probably his actual feelings on the matter. He seems like a nice guy with questionable workers.

2) Zoe Quinn:
- Had two affairs that very likely assisted her career and standing with games media.
- Shut down a game jam that aimed to get women to create games (http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/814/183/c06.png).
- Fabricated harassment in attempt to vilify a site called Wizardchan (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/814/182/d7a.jpg).
- And generally speaking; cheated on her bf five times. Really now?

So, wait, I'm confused. There's no confirmation of corruption, but you're going after these sites anyway?

There's a difference between being unethical and flat out corruption. If it was the latter, authorities would be involved (the Fez/Indy awards thing came close).

Haha what a surprise Kalyx is a GGer. It attracts robotic sociopathic idiot babies who think they're amazing.

This post highlights one of the points I've been speaking of in this thread. I have done nothing but reply questions and tell my perspective this whole thread. And there are no prior clashes between me and Rogerer on this forum. I'll leave it at that.

If anybody has questions or want me to elaborate on past answers I'll do my best.

[Kalyx triaD]

That Five guys video was sexist bullshit.

How so?

Cries about GG and giving own thread. Watches vid and posts in GG thread.

I don't understand... Are you saying this thread was in response to people crying about GG in VG forums? And is there something all of sudden wrong with posting vids we watched on here?

What are you saying?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

He used the word cunt.

[Kalyx triaD]

Okay?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Just sayin' using that word makes him a sexist. I'm not talking anything he says about a woman seriously.

[Kalyx triaD]

That's unfortunate.

But he's not sexist, and if anything he's used his channel and twitter to give women a great platform to speak up. But if his actions and arguments mean nothing to you because of a word, I can't make that horse drink that water.

I can send you other vids of his where he's not talking about a woman since you're willing to take other subject seriously. There are also other vids explaining the 'Five Guys' thing that doesn't use the word cunt.

Just saying there's ways around your aversion to the word, I can work with you.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Nope, Its not as bad as the N word but it's similar. Not acceptable in any form anywhere ever.

[Kalyx triaD]

Okay fine; but would you like other videos or text on the matter that doesn't involve words that offend you?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

The overt sexism made me shut down about the topic. Go ahead.

[Kalyx triaD]

before I go hunting later; it's the Five Guys thing you wanna know about?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Whatever you think is relevant but that seems to be the major part right?

[Kalyx triaD]

Whatever you think is relevant but that seems to be the major part right?

Not really. The Five Guys thing led to the mysteriously dismissive nature of reddit and game journos. Nobody really cares about Quinn now since the movement solidified on the actions of game journos. She just kinda pops up and makes a baiting tweet these days now.

So moving past that; what would you like to know. We'll start fresh.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Just say what do you think you will accomplish as a Gamergate member. What's the end game? Like no more Corporate sponsors in game journalism? Like when Doritos bought IGN the Halo 4 Package for a review?

[Kalyx triaD]

The endgame would be:

- The end of gender bias in games journalism. If one sex scandal is off the ropes because a developer's sex life isn't industry relevant; none of them are. Same with sextape and nude pic leaks (as far as Gawker media goes).

- Disclaimers of any prior relationships between journalist and subject (Kotaku and others have already started this to their credit).

- On a broader, yes, certain paid articles and corporate shilling needs to end or at least downplay.

- Writers need to differentiate between a game review (which should focus on merits of the game), and their own personal of a game's subtext. This is a tricky line, but a lot of us have been bothered with how game articles are written nowadays. Polygon's Bayonetta 2 review said nothing that would help a potential buyer, but it sure was sexist, eh? They can have blog spaces for that conversation. Gaming needs to be about gaming again.

- The end of toxic discourse in the gaming community. GamerGate and Game Journos can together make a huge stand against this age old behavior, we're too busy blaming each other. Nobody, nobody wants to be harassed, threatened or dox'd. Together we need to vilify this behavior. Understandably you can't stop a troll from being a troll, but since we both hate them, we can certainly make their lives hell.

- Integrity, not even of the job specific kind. Some sites have made changes in response to things we called out - like a month later. A lot of people believe that GG wouldn't be nearly as big as it is if they initially identified the issue, apologized where warranted, and went from there. Closing threads, doubling down on hateful articles, bullying other members of your field for taking a neutral stance, and equating people to ISIS is not going to go well. These are things that would crumble any industry or social group outside of gaming.

[The Rogerer]

If you had a fucking brain in your nut you'd be able to discern what you read for yourself and let the free market continue as it does.

[drave]

How so?



I don't understand... Are you saying this thread was in response to people crying about GG in VG forums? And is there something all of sudden wrong with posting vids we watched on here?

What are you saying?

It was to STD - nothing more.

Disclaimers of any prior relationships between journalist and subject

Feel like personal life details are not the business of the general public.

On a broader, yes, certain paid articles and corporate shilling needs to end or at least downplay

If anyone, GG involved or not, ever believes this will ever happen, then good on them. Truthfully, however, no one will ever know the truth. Even if any companies say they are 100% transparent, this will never go away. It exists in everything in life. That being said, it would be nice to see more people focus this kind of effort on "corruption" in more important venues.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Actually, it would be best if people who had a relationship in the past to excuse themselves from doing articles on their exes. They don't need to announce the details of their love lives. They just have to not write articles on people they have slept with or dated.

to Drave: I just wanted it out of News because at this point it's more opinion of what happened than what actually happened. News is news and opinion is opinion.

[road doggy dogg]

have nothing important to add except to say that I really hope the term "doxxed" does not become a "thing" people start saying

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I agree and add that I hope "Journos" for journalists isn't a thing.

[Kalyx triaD]

Feel like personal life details are not the business of the general public.

>>>

Actually, it would be best if people who had a relationship in the past to excuse themselves from doing articles on their exes. They don't need to announce the details of their love lives. They just have to not write articles on people they have slept with or dated.

:y:

If anyone, GG involved or not, ever believes this will ever happen, then good on them. Truthfully, however, no one will ever know the truth. Even if any companies say they are 100% transparent, this will never go away. It exists in everything in life. That being said, it would be nice to see more people focus this kind of effort on "corruption" in more important venues.

Agreed. This could be seen as an experiment of sorts. This kind of focused energy targeted at big corporations and politics would be very good.

have nothing important to add except to say that I really hope the term "doxxed" does not become a "thing" people start saying

Way too late for that, I'm afraid.

I agree and add that I hope "Journos" for journalists isn't a thing.

I think that's more to do with working around Twitter's character limit (although I used the shorthand a few times in my blog). Just silly things that stick.

[Savio]

what does Doxxed mean? Is that like "M.O.M. and P.O.P."?

[Kalyx triaD]

Having you 'documents' dropped online. Just having your identity and/or address leaked.

[Heisenberg]

Does this woman deserve the death threats? The one that spawned this shit? Who smells the Apple Pie upon entering a house? That's what I want to know. That's what we're here for.

[Kalyx triaD]

Does this woman deserve the death threats?

Of course not.

The one that spawned this shit?

We don't condone threatening Quinn. Actually we really wanna ignore her.

Who smells the Apple Pie upon entering a house?

Who cooked it?

That's what I want to know. That's what we're here for.

Only @ 7.

[The Rogerer]

Is that We gamergate or We the triangle man that lives in your head?

[drave]

Having you 'documents' dropped online. Just having your identity and/or address leaked.

Just having your identity leaked - NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

Of course not.We don't condone threatening Quinn. Actually we really wanna ignore her.


Then do so.

[The Rogerer]

I want to ignore that body I buried behind the biscuit factory

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I want to ignore that body I buried behind the biscuit factory

can i borrow a feeling/can i borrow a jar of love.

[Kalyx triaD]

Just having your identity leaked - NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

You serious with this? Like... you're fine posting your first and last and address right here? Maybe you don't care but a lot of people do.

Then do so.

We do for the most part. She winds up trending when people catch her latest tweet. Eh.

[drave]

You serious with this? Like... you're fine posting your first and last and address right here? Maybe you don't care but a lot of people do.

Don't be so damn ignorant. It was sarcasm to the effect of the nonchalant way you expressed it in your post:

Just having your identity and/or address leaked.

Perhaps I misinterpret the usage, but generally justifying a statement with "just" leading it implies that things could be worse.

Like it or not, GG as a whole has been represented as the responsible parties for disseminating said information.

We do for the most part. She winds up trending when people catch her latest tweet. Eh.

So you want to ignore her, for the most part. Right.

As a gamer, the entire situation disgusts me. There will be, always has been and always will be paid-opinion articles so long as we live in a world driven by profit. The only thing the entire situation has garnered is a series of nasty smear campaigns on BOTH sides, catching those who aren't even involved in the crosshairs as well.

[Kalyx triaD]

Opinion articles are fine.

And yeah, I didn't mean to make doxing seem like a non-issue.

[drave]

Is the GG community going after Youtubers who have been ousted as being paid to do reviews too?

[Kalyx triaD]

We don't have issues with that, specifically.

Personally, I don't mind paid reviews. They're easy to spot and to some degree companies are at fault for making that kind of environment (though the reviewers could refuse).

[drave]

Just feels/appears to be a cause full of inconsistencies.

I guess I feel there are much more major issues to deal with in the gaming world, if that truly is what GG is all about. Instead, lets focus on the personal lives of certain people here and there. Targeting companies that advertise on specific websites rather than targeting the companies themselves seems like a significant misfire.

GG is just as SJW as the other end of the spectrum, simply in their own light.

[Kalyx triaD]

I don't think so but I can say we tried to get at the companies. Their dismissive attitude is what led to this scale. Writers don't address this, get at their editor. He dismisses it, get at parent company. Company seems slow to react, holla at their ad revenue. That tends to be the steps.

[Ultra Mantis]

I still don't understand why any of this is important to anyone anywhere.

[Kalyx triaD]

That's fine. You can check out my last big posts here or peep the GamerGate tag on Twitter or KnowYourMeme. There are people who will explain probably better than I can.

[Kalyx triaD]

Adobe cuts ties with Gawker over their writers' recent bullying on Twitter.

[drave]

I don't think so but I can say we tried to get at the companies. Their dismissive attitude is what led to this scale. Writers don't address this, get at their editor. He dismisses it, get at parent company. Company seems slow to react, holla at their ad revenue. That tends to be the steps.

And in the process, do potential harm to those who aren't involved in any form.

Well done.

[Kalyx triaD]

In what part of this process do innocent people get harmed?

[drave]

Pulling ad revenue from a site/company has a direct effect on the entire company. Was there a single ENTIRE company responsible?

[Kalyx triaD]

A valid point, but you can't use that point without acknowledging the harm that comes from sites calling all gamers misogynist, racists, terrorists. And I don't recall this point coming in response to other actions against game companies (boycott whoever because DLC this and that). Only now are we supposed to consider that people in these companies could be hurt from their employer or co-workers' actions? Is this something you've always felt?

I've never read this kind of reaction to having ads pulled. In any other scenario consumers getting things done is fair game.

[drave]

A valid point, but you can't use that point without acknowledging the harm that comes from sites calling all gamers misogynist, racists, terrorists. And I don't recall this point coming in response to other actions against game companies (boycott whoever because DLC this and that). Only now are we supposed to consider that people in these companies could be hurt from their employer or co-workers' actions? Is this something you've always felt?

I've never read this kind of reaction to having ads pulled. In any other scenario consumers getting things done is fair game.

Name calling, that is what this boils down to from the likes of it. If someone insults you on the street, are you going to obtain their personal info and "doxx" them, or reciprocate in kind and move along? Other than bruising egos, what damage has name calling ever really done? GTFO with that.

I am talking financial damage. People that have zero to do with this could be financially impacted thanks to the stupidity of both sides of this nonsensical issue. Devs having to move ENTIRE FAMILY HOUSEHOLDS because of a group of trolls that want to "doxx" people? It is on the same level of "SWATTING" because you kicked some 12 year olds ass at the latest CoD.

Example of mass boycott related to DLC that has harmed a company/studio? Closest RECENT event I can think of that even comes close was the uproar about the ME3 ending. Video games are another art form and the devs of ME should have said "STFU" and left it at that. They cannot though, because of whiney brats that believe something should be the way they want it without consideration of anyone else. When has a company ever been hurt from such actions?

And no, it should have been considered BEFORE doing something so dumb. A leaderless movement of any sort will net you cannon fodder in any arena. This would be the equivalent, in real life, of country A outright obiterating country B and every single inhabitant because there were a "couple bad guys" that really needed to be destroyed.

[Kalyx triaD]

Name calling, that is what this boils down to from the likes of it. If someone insults you on the street, are you going to obtain their personal info and "doxx" them, or reciprocate in kind and move along? Other than bruising egos, what damage has name calling ever really done? GTFO with that.

Emailing PR firms that use sites where writers smear their own readership is not doxxing. And actual doxxing is not something anybody is fond of on either side (though we have caps of journalists advocating the doxxing of the wider known GG supporters).

I am talking financial damage. People that have zero to do with this could be financially impacted thanks to the stupidity of both sides of this nonsensical issue.

Again; this is reasoning I've rarely heard before. When advertisers pulled away from some of Fox News more toxic programs, I don't recall people being sympathetic about Glenn Beck's camera man who has nothing to do with Glenn's comments. When boycotts were called for Chick Fil A over their anti-gay stance, nobody spoke about how employees who are not anti-gay being affected.

Devs having to move ENTIRE FAMILY HOUSEHOLDS because of a group of trolls that want to "doxx" people? It is on the same level of "SWATTING" because you kicked some 12 year olds ass at the latest CoD.

Yes, these things are horrible. I take it you're still equating GamerGate with these actions. After all my posts in this thread, I don't know what else to tell you on the matter. We don't condone it, we would love to root out anybody doing it in the movement's name. We never, ever celebrate these things. People on our side have been doxxed, including a journalists who looked into it and made a few articles having a syringe sent to his house. No threats (he's got some) or bad language (he gets harassed on Twitter all the time now) - but a syringe sent to his house. They have his address and are willing to make contact of some sort. This is happening to people on both sides and nobody wants that - except for opportunistic trolls who everybody already hates.

I mean; the swatting bullshit - would you equate that to the CoD community? Or would you conclude that there's just assholes out there?

Example of mass boycott related to DLC that has harmed a company/studio? Closest RECENT event I can think of that even comes close was the uproar about the ME3 ending. Video games are another art form and the devs of ME should have said "STFU" and left it at that. They cannot though, because of whiney brats that believe something should be the way they want it without consideration of anyone else. When has a company ever been hurt from such actions?

So us contacting PR firms being effective bothers you? It only matters if it works or not, right?

I guarantee if there were no forward movement on that (as it was initially), it would be laughed off. But since things are happening - legally - contacting companies with concerns is all of sudden a hit below the belt.

And no, it should have been considered BEFORE doing something so dumb. A leaderless movement of any sort will net you cannon fodder in any arena. This would be the equivalent, in real life, of country A outright obiterating country B and every single inhabitant because there were a "couple bad guys" that really needed to be destroyed.

You return to this 'collateral damage' argument and I will repeat that you and anybody else on this would never consider this if it was a company you were displeased with. You don't seem worried that gamer community is dealing with collateral damage from the actions of a trollish few. You have argued this whole time for the journalists' sake.

Do you not believe innocent GG people are being threatened and doxxed?

[Kalyx triaD]

Trolls aside; this is what many of these journalists consider reasonable:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0gGGveIYAE6Cs5.jpg:large

They pulled because of the pro-bully comments from a Gawker writer I mentioned just a few posts ago. She knows this. This is a classic shaming tactic of extreme liberals.

[The Rogerer]

Please explain how it's different from what 'you' ninnies did first, ie harrassing advertisers literally like concerned soccer moms. Oh, it's not as bad as that. Happy to help.

[Kalyx triaD]

There's something about this topic that renders you into talking gibberish. I'll engage you whenever you wanna talk. Until then I don't have the patience for... whatever point you've been trying to make here and in Discussion.

[Kalyx triaD]

Reaction tweets of the Adobe thing (gag reaction in first pic):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0g8lECIAAEOwVi.png:large

http://i.imgur.com/y0RXFdZ.jpg

[The Mask]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/21/gamergate-angry-men-harassing-women

You dirty honky bastards.

[BigDaddyCool]

So to be brought up to speed, a bunch of butthurt "core" gamers found out some chick dated a dude, so now they want to attack the world?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I guess the girl also cheated on her boyfriend who posted alot of personal stuff about her online photos etc.

She was doing a game journalist. People think she got good press for her non-game Depression Quest because of the sex. Her game is barely a game so it probably should have never been reviewed.

[BigDaddyCool]

I guess the girl also cheated on her boyfriend who posted alot of personal stuff about her online photos etc.

She was doing a game journalist. People think she got good press for her non-game Depression Quest because of the sex. Her game is barely a game so it probably should have never been reviewed.

yeah, that seems like a legit reason to grab torches and pitchforks.

[Kalyx triaD]

It wasn't that; it was the reaction to the inquiry that revealed something off about how these sites covered the story (not at all), which in turn revealed gender bias - which in term coincided with their growing politicizing of game coverage. Their toxic behavior after the fact started GamerGate.

I just don't know what else to tell you.

[The Rogerer]

Ah, I see with the Sam Biddle thing. You pride yourself on being humourless, moral majority types who want press objectivity but magically still somehow respect advertisment funded press.

Made with Photoshop legally purchased :rofl:

[drave]

Emailing PR firms that use sites where writers smear their own readership is not doxxing. And actual doxxing is not something anybody is fond of on either side (though we have caps of journalists advocating the doxxing of the wider known GG supporters).

Nothing that anyone is fond of, yet it continues to happen and the GG movement directly correlates with every doxxing that has occurred on the few journalists in the recent months/weeks. There is no concrete way to prove that GG activists are or aren't responsible for said doxxing (which is not what I am saying), other than "we don't condone it". Glad that everyone is honest and we can take them at their word. However, if the GG "movement" never occurred, the doxxing of said individuals never would have either.

Again; this is reasoning I've rarely heard before. When advertisers pulled away from some of Fox News more toxic programs, I don't recall people being sympathetic about Glenn Beck's camera man who has nothing to do with Glenn's comments. When boycotts were called for Chick Fil A over their anti-gay stance, nobody spoke about how employees who are not anti-gay being affected.

Again, because most people are selfish and care only of their interests. Glenn Beck draws the ire of many, but it is because of his show that his camera man has his job. The Chick Fil A boycott involved many consumers flooding stores. That must have hurt their bottom line :|

Yes, these things are horrible. I take it you're still equating GamerGate with these actions. After all my posts in this thread, I don't know what else to tell you on the matter. We don't condone it, we would love to root out anybody doing it in the movement's name. We never, ever celebrate these things.

Does not condone does not mean does not occur. In addition, they are a byproduct of the GG movement, like it or not.

People on our side have been doxxed, including a journalists who looked into it and made a few articles having a syringe sent to his house. No threats (he's got some) or bad language (he gets harassed on Twitter all the time now) - but a syringe sent to his house. They have his address and are willing to make contact of some sort. This is happening to people on both sides and nobody wants that - except for opportunistic trolls who everybody already hates.

Their side, your side, doesn't matter. Unfortunately, this entire movement has reached a level of momentum that cannot be stopped any time soon. I believe someone will actually end up hurt or killed before things simmer down.

I mean; the swatting bullshit - would you equate that to the CoD community? Or would you conclude that there's just assholes out there?

Perhaps I should have said "FPS" - as hardcore as you are in gaming, you feel the need to be pedantic.

So us contacting PR firms being effective bothers you? It only matters if it works or not, right?

No, it doesn't bother me in the least. Doing harm to those who have zero involvement bothers me. Whether by proxy or not, it is a shitty consequence that was not thought about until too late.

I guarantee if there were no forward movement on that (as it was initially), it would be laughed off. But since things are happening - legally - contacting companies with concerns is all of sudden a hit below the belt.

Never said it was below the belt. It is rather sloppy though which will produce unintended results when not properly executed, as in this entire scenario.

You return to this 'collateral damage' argument and I will repeat that you and anybody else on this would never consider this if it was a company you were displeased with.

Thanks for forming my opinion for me.

You don't seem worried that gamer community is dealing with collateral damage from the actions of a trollish few. You have argued this whole time for the journalists' sake.

I couldn't care less what journalist is dating another and frankly it is no one's business but their own. I have yet to see any collateral damage imposed on the gamer community.

Do you not believe innocent GG people are being threatened and doxxed?

Never assumed that. To take your stance however: "the journos do not condone that activity". And to be real about it, neither side can prove anything, but will continue to feed the trolls.

Trolls aside; this is what many of these journalists consider reasonable:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0gGGveIYAE6Cs5.jpg:large

"Trolls aside" - that is a troll right there. Anyone that actually pays attention to this entire situation knows that. Yet here you are, to bring an obvious troll/troll attempt into the fray.

They pulled because of the pro-bully comments from a Gawker writer I mentioned just a few posts ago. She knows this. This is a classic shaming tactic of extreme liberals.

Or an OBVIOUS troll attempt which appears to have baited many, yourself included.


Both sides make fair points. However, just as in more crucial current events, the negative will shine through and everyone just ends up looking more dumb than when it started.

I take the stance that this entire situation, on ALL sides, started over something that was very petty, has been blown out of proportion and effectively done MORE damage to the entire industry than helped anyone at all.

[Ruien]

What the hell does this lady fucking another man have to do with bullying?

[The Rogerer]

Typed on my internet computer that I legally purchased from a shop. There's nee porn on it.

[Raven Reaper]

2 words on this one: ANITA SARKEESIAN.. Someone please shut the cunt up with duct tape. Can't stand her game reviews with her feminist bullshit.

[drave]

2 words on this one: ANITA SARKEESIAN.. Someone please shut the cunt up with duct tape. Can't stand her game reviews with her feminist bullshit.

It is her opinion, just as your opinion on her is yours. Should we tie you up with duct tape too?

It is these type of reactions that have birthed the filth that is GG today. You sir, are part of the crowd that needs to settle it down and remember - it's just video games.

[road doggy dogg]

http://www.clickhole.com/article/summary-gamergate-movement-we-will-immediately-cha-1241?utm_campaign=default&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_source=facebook

I'll just leave this here.

(CH is a 'sister site' of The Onion for those not in the know)

[DAMN iNATOR]

http://www.clickhole.com/article/summary-gamergate-movement-we-will-immediately-cha-1241?utm_campaign=default&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_source=facebook

I'll just leave this here.

(CH is a 'sister site' of The Onion for those not in the know)

The Onion still exists?! :eek: Holy fuck. Legit shocked right now.

[road doggy dogg]

...seriously?

[drave]

http://www.clickhole.com/article/summary-gamergate-movement-we-will-immediately-cha-1241?utm_campaign=default&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_source=facebook

I'll just leave this here.

(CH is a 'sister site' of The Onion for those not in the know)

Still fairly accurate.

[Vastardikai]

I'm going to make one comment and leave it at that (unless I need to discuss more):

Anyone who uses the term "Social Justice Warrior" as an insult is probably an asshole.

[Kalyx triaD]

2 words on this one: ANITA SARKEESIAN.. Someone please shut the cunt up with duct tape. Can't stand her game reviews with her feminist bullshit.

She doesn't review games so much as critique with whatever perspective she wishes. Although her arguments tend to be dishonest (having one developer blast her on Twitter over her constant misrepresentation of games including his own) but aside from that she certainly has a right to say whatever she wants.

When it goes without counter-argument has been an issue with people since any other area of sharing ideals regard conversation and debate as a required test of legitimacy - but she doesn't have to do that either. Kinda sucks her untested conclusions get so much clout though. Her vids are starting to be used in some universities.

[BigDaddyCool]

those damn feminazis ruining my vidia games with their depression quests. Let's just kill them

[Kalyx triaD]

Nothing that anyone is fond of, yet it continues to happen and the GG movement directly correlates with every doxxing that has occurred on the few journalists in the recent months/weeks. There is no concrete way to prove that GG activists are or aren't responsible for said doxxing (which is not what I am saying), other than "we don't condone it". Glad that everyone is honest and we can take them at their word. However, if the GG "movement" never occurred, the doxxing of said individuals never would have either.

That last part I can agree with. All of this as certainly given trolls a vast playing field.

The underlined portions of your post will pertain to later responses in this one.

Again, because most people are selfish and care only of their interests. Glenn Beck draws the ire of many, but it is because of his show that his camera man has his job. The Chick Fil A boycott involved many consumers flooding stores. That must have hurt their bottom line :|

So you generally don't agree with getting advertisers to back off? Okay, that's cool.

Does not condone does not mean does not occur. In addition, they are a byproduct of the GG movement, like it or not.

Nobody says they don't condone it to infer it doesn't occur. Nobody's saying it doesn't happen. I don't get what you're getting at aside from 'It's all your fault' - which is something I can never reply to. What would you have us do? Stop the consumer/readership concerns of the movement so the byproduct harassment can stop? How many other groups and movements would you want to completely stop because of the actions of bad apples within those movements/groups?

Perhaps I should have said "FPS" - as hardcore as you are in gaming, you feel the need to be pedantic.

So I would ask my question again but replace CoD with FPS Community.

No, it doesn't bother me in the least. Doing harm to those who have zero involvement bothers me. Whether by proxy or not, it is a shitty consequence that was not thought about until too late.

We have no control over people taking advantage of the situation. None at all.

Never said it was below the belt. It is rather sloppy though which will produce unintended results when not properly executed, as in this entire scenario.

Sloppy? We contacted PR firms via email and Twitter. What is the 'clean' way of doing that if simple emails are 'sloppy'?

I have yet to see any collateral damage imposed on the gamer community.

That's fine. If you like I can PM you a list of GamerGate supporters who have been dox'd or generally harassed. I don't think this would change your mind about that, but later on I could give you that gamer collateral damage if you don't think it happened.

A female YouTuber was one of the first to get doxxed and she made a video about the matter. We can start with that if you like. And @Nero, a journalist who is sympathetic to GG, had a syringe sent to his house.

Never assumed that. To take your stance however: "the journos do not condone that activity". And to be real about it, neither side can prove anything, but will continue to feed the trolls.

Remember the underlined portion above?

It seems to be that you're willing to carry the idea of journalists and indy game devs being doxxed and harassed, enough for this to be a main point of yours, while gamers getting trolled the same way is met with grains of salt. Only after I speak about gamers getting this treatment did you consider how hard it is to prove anything. Hell, you technically didn't see any journalists and devs get doxed either. Everybody's word against everybody's! Who's lying who's wrong?!

If you're at a place where you just want it to stop, I get that. But as you said it probably won't stop. The unfortunate trolling will continue on both sides until we root out the assholes (which is a more likely unilateral victory than journalists simply apologizing and not calling us ISIS).

"Trolls aside" - that is a troll right there. Anyone that actually pays attention to this entire situation knows that. Yet here you are, to bring an obvious troll/troll attempt into the fray.

That troll is a game developer. And most of her side make tweets just like that. So they're all trolls?

[Raven Reaper]

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WcebgKvAoh0" allowfullscreen="" height="315" width="560" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Sums it up for me..

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/UgHmTmUjFF0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Raven Reaper]

those damn feminazis ruining my vidia games with their depression quests. Let's just kill them

Yep. Anita doesn't even play games. She said it herself long ago. She doesn't like violent ones yet she criticizes them? How is that woman still has a fucking job?

[Kalyx triaD]

She's self employed.

That Anita and Jonathan McIntosh aren't versed in how games work before they criticize them is a major issue of mine. When Jon vilified the very concept of player control he kinda clowns himself. Anita's Bayonetta comments are stuff of legend.

[Raven Reaper]

For those people who negged rep in this thread, waste your money away to support her bullshit agenda and false threats at Gamergate.. Bunch of brainwashed White Knight/SJW idiots. Also, don't play video games that are reviewed by her and labelled as misogynistic shit... There.

P.S. I used to be a feminist myself long ago.. But now, the 3rd wave movement/tumblr/twitter feminists like Anita really made me see the light of day.

[road doggy dogg]

I don't understand all the vitriol being spewed. Clearly, if she's as horrible as you guys say she is, nobody worthwhile will value her "wrong" opinion anyway. What's the harm here? Is it such a critical injustice in this world that a female rightly has a negative opinion on how females are portrayed in the videogame world?

[Kalyx triaD]

Opinion can't be wrong or right; just legit or not. She's not legit. She misrepresents games to push her message. She didn't use her kickstarter money for research/videos. And above all else; a video revealed she doesn't even care about games to begin with. Her boyfriend is more than likely using her to push his bigotry through a pretty face.

She was awarded an ambassador award at this year's GDC. She was invited to an EA studio to consult on Mirror's Edge 2. She had a recent speech where she actually pushed the message that when it comes to women it is our job to "listen and believe". Her busted research is being used in a few schools.

Her (or Jon, I guess) ideology has been shown to be ultimately anti-artistic freedom, with thinly veiled shaming as icing on the cake for anyone who tries to engage her. It's so formulaic that a documentary is being made to focus on how she and other SJW/Feminists conduct themselves when called on their arguments/actions.

Her having opinions isn't the issue. Those opinions being structurally weak yet above reproach is kind of a problem. This isn't even a GamerGate thing. If she had her way the games you guys enjoy wouldn't exist.

[road doggy dogg]

I can't take anything you say seriously when you still use "social justice warrior" as an attack

[BigDaddyCool]

I feel like any horrible thing I say ironically in support of gamergate is actaully part of their core platform.

[Kalyx triaD]

I can't take anything you say seriously when you still use "social justice warrior" as an attack

I haven't used the word as derogatory in itself. A chat with SJWs on a blog site made me rethink my usage lately. When I mention SJWs it's for lack of better label. Go back and read my posts and tell me what I should put there. 'Gamer Libs'?

[Kalyx triaD]

And really; I already said at the top of this thread take everything I say with a grain of salt. You don't wanna take me seriously because I said cunt or you think I'm using SJW as an insult - fine. There's a lot of GG peeps who can't wait to discuss this and answer questions. Go for it.

[BigDaddyCool]

The fact that you use the term SJW at all kind of invalidates any point you hope to make

[Kalyx triaD]

That doesn't make sense but okay. It's cool. There are others who are willing to discuss GamerGate with you if you feel I'm not up to task.

[BigDaddyCool]

Kalyx, replace the gamergate situation with the civil rights movement from the 60's. The way your side is acting is basically the same as the KKK. Right down to death threats and lynching. How do you not see that? You are a KKK member.

[Tom Guycott]

Basically, the TL;DR crux of the entire debate comes down to misinformation.

[Destor]

After reading Kalyx's posts I'm both more confused and more disinterested than I was originally.

[The Rogerer]

Objectivity is a lie, enthusiast press isn't journalism, advertising funded writing is the biggest influence, these people aren't comfortable with women.

[Destor]

Objectivity is a lie, enthusiast press isn't journalism, advertising funded writing is the biggest influence, these people aren't comfortable with women.followed by "Reform or terrorism will occur."

[Kalyx triaD]

After reading Kalyx's posts I'm both more confused and more disinterested than I was originally.

What do you wanna know specifically?

[Destor]

What do you wanna know specifically?Ive seen four pages of you doing just that and im going to have to pass.

[Kalyx triaD]

That's cool. I'll be updating this thread with any significant to this thing. Laters.

[drave]

So you generally don't agree with getting advertisers to back off? Okay, that's cool.

If that is what you deduce, okay I guess? I do not agree with a method that attacks a company as a whole if an issue exists with only a "radical few". But since you stated previously that you have "never heard that stance before" I will expect it to fall flat. Not a big deal, just a different viewpoint.

Nobody says they don't condone it to infer it doesn't occur. Nobody's saying it doesn't happen. I don't get what you're getting at aside from 'It's all your fault' - which is something I can never reply to. What would you have us do? Stop the consumer/readership concerns of the movement so the byproduct harassment can stop? How many other groups and movements would you want to completely stop because of the actions of bad apples within those movements/groups?

I think this entire "movement" has gone so far off track that yes, it needs to stop, ON BOTH SIDES, and be repackaged with a more organized effort with clear objectives. I get the objectives of the movement when it started, but it was derailed in less than 48 hours and has only continued to worsen. Anything positive gained moving forward will only be overshadowed with the harassment/threat news that helped the movement gain so much popularity. Also do not understand why people care so much about viewpoints of people that "don't know what they are talking about".

So I would ask my question again but replace CoD with FPS Community.

Sure. Now quickly give examples of other genre games involved in swatting incidents so you can tell me how wrong I am and feel better :)

We have no control over people taking advantage of the situation. None at all.

Exactly. Yet another, if not the prime reason, to reboot.

Sloppy? We contacted PR firms via email and Twitter. What is the 'clean' way of doing that if simple emails are 'sloppy'?

How about dealing with the few bad apples that GG has issues with? Not working? Involving the entire company is the wrong answer, in my thoughts, because parties not involved are dragged into it. As for an alternative method, I cannot answer it as I do not give it enough thought process. This entire situation is so damn dumb it blows my mind how "srs bsnss" it has become. Then I remember - the internet. No way in hell this would ever happen if things were not from behind an anonymous screen.

That's fine. If you like I can PM you a list of GamerGate supporters who have been dox'd or generally harassed. I don't think this would change your mind about that, but later on I could give you that gamer collateral damage if you don't think it happened.

I was referring to collateral damage from the name calling, as you referenced here:

A valid point, but you can't use that point without acknowledging the harm that comes from sites calling all gamers misogynist, racists, terrorists.

I am a gamer. I read the articles when they started popping up. I shrugged it off as someone who did not know what they were talking about and moved on..... because that is exactly what has happened. However, because of HOW it was done, mainly with Sarkeesian, everyone reacted exactly how she expected. While she may think the ideas of hers are valid concerns, she delivers it in a way where she knows the reactions she will garner before anything is even said. Well done, playing right into her hand.


A female YouTuber was one of the first to get doxxed and she made a video about the matter. We can start with that if you like. And @Nero, a journalist who is sympathetic to GG, had a syringe sent to his house.

I never said anything to the contrary, did I? The journos are as guilty as the GG activists when it comes to this behavior.


It seems to be that you're willing to carry the idea of journalists and indy game devs being doxxed and harassed, enough for this to be a main point of yours, while gamers getting trolled the same way is met with grains of salt. Only after I speak about gamers getting this treatment did you consider how hard it is to prove anything. Hell, you technically didn't see any journalists and devs get doxed either. Everybody's word against everybody's! Who's lying who's wrong?!

I have never denied that it wasn't happening on both ends. The "who is lying" game is similar to that of countries who aren't necessarily enemies, but not buddies either. Think US and Russia relations right now. Not the best of friends yet not really "enemies". Both sides manipulate the other but neither "condone or admit" to anything negative.

I am talking financial damage. People that have zero to do with this could be financially impacted thanks to the stupidity of both sides of this nonsensical issue. Devs having to move ENTIRE FAMILY HOUSEHOLDS because of a group of trolls that want to "doxx" people?

Nothing that anyone is fond of, yet it continues to happen and the GG movement directly correlates with every doxxing that has occurred on the few journalists in the recent months/weeks. There is no concrete way to prove that GG activists are or aren't responsible for said doxxing (which is not what I am saying), other than "we don't condone it". However, if the GG "movement" never occurred, the doxxing of said individuals never would have either.

The bold portion you even agreed to by your own admission.

If you're at a place where you just want it to stop, I get that. But as you said it probably won't stop. The unfortunate trolling will continue on both sides until we root out the assholes (which is a more likely unilateral victory than journalists simply apologizing and not calling us ISIS).

I am at the same place I have been all along. This entire situation is very silly. It has now degenerated into something so distasteful, it makes me ashamed of the gaming community as a whole, on BOTH sides of the spectrum. Continuing this will do nothing positive for anyone, ever.

That troll is a game developer. And most of her side make tweets just like that. So they're all trolls?

I believe you are smarter than the context of that statement. If you could not tell that this tweet:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0gGGveIYAE6Cs5.jpg:large

Is such a trolling statement meant to garner attention then your cause is in worse shape than I thought. Dev or not, that statement achieved what it set out to, and that is attention. The type of attention does not matter, and such statements are meant to make people rage. Again, predictably behaving just as the trolls want. If you wish to make a sweeping generalization that "all devs are trolls" from me pointing out that she clearly was trolling, I am not really sure what to say to that other than "okay".

My main point:

If the root cause of the movement is to hold true, then things need to be restarted under a new label/movement. This entire thing escalated to obscene levels before it even truly took off. Nothing that anyone does, from either side, will net anything positive for the gaming community, gamers in general or the industry as a whole.

[Kalyx triaD]

Let's say we buckle and reboot ourselves. New name, a leadership counsel, all of that. But then the trolling continues. What then?

[drave]

It will be about timing. Gamergate's root causes are nothing out of the ordinary nor is there anything wrong with most of them as you laid them out:

- The end of gender bias in games journalism.

- Disclaimers of any prior relationships between journalist and subject (Kotaku and others have already started this to their credit).

Still think this one is no one's business - on either side.


On a broader, yes, certain paid articles and corporate shilling needs to end or at least downplay.

Writers need to differentiate between a game review (which should focus on merits of the game), and their own personal of a game's subtext. This is a tricky line, but a lot of us have been bothered with how game articles are written nowadays. Polygon's Bayonetta 2 review said nothing that would help a potential buyer, but it sure was sexist, eh? They can have blog spaces for that conversation. Gaming needs to be about gaming again.

Is this the review you refer to? (http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/13/6957677/bayonetta-2-review-wii-u)

If so, they talk about both subjects - graphics, new gameplay featuers, as well as the over-sexualization of the main character. Oddly enough, a pretty decent chunk of the game is it's art direction, which has to do with her clothes coming off as you chain higher combos. As as integral part of the game mechanics, albeit visually, it can still be offensive to some people and they can have their opinion. In addition, you do not know that it did not help a potential buyer, unless you believe everyone is as in-depth a gamer as you say.

The end of toxic discourse in the gaming community. GamerGate and Game Journos can together make a huge stand against this age old behavior, we're too busy blaming each other. Nobody, nobody wants to be harassed, threatened or dox'd. Together we need to vilify this behavior. Understandably you can't stop a troll from being a troll, but since we both hate them, we can certainly make their lives hell.

Both groups will lose (and already have) against the trolls. They have nothing better to do and will ruin the cause (as they have) for both sides. If GG echoes the bolded sentiment, I would advise to rethink that strategy.

Integrity, not even of the job specific kind.

The problem lies that as the GG movement grew, the trolling was way out in front and now any and any associations are tied to the movement. Just as any "hot button" multimedia topic, it will die down given time. It is before that time (such as now) that GG, as a unified movement, to reinvent themselves and their image.

Anything at this point will be lost in the turmoil and both sides will point fingers at one another, trolls will help fuel the propaganda by pointing fingers for both sides as well. No one wins, no one is winning and both sides look like complete asshats.

[Innovator]

So Felicia Day posted this on tumblr

They have not dissipated. And because of the frightening emotions and actions attached to what has happened over the last month, the events are sure to have a long-lasting affect on gaming as a culture. The fact that it has affected me, to the point where I decided to cross the street last weekend away from those gamers, was heartbreaking. Because I realized my silence on the issue was not motivated by some grand strategy, but out of fear that the issue has created about speaking out.

I have been terrified of inviting a deluge of abusive and condescending tweets into my timeline. I did one simple @ reply to one of the main victims several weeks back, and got a flood of things I simply couldn’t stand to read directed at me. I had to log offline for a few days until it went away. I have tried to retweet a few of the articles I’ve seen dissecting the issue in support, but personally I am terrified to be doxxed for even typing the words “Gamer Gate”. I have had stalkers and restraining orders issued in the past, I have had people show up on my doorstep when my personal information was HARD to get. To have my location revealed to the world would give a entry point for a few mentally ill people who have fixated on me, and allow them to show up and make good on the kind of threats I’ve received that make me paranoid to walk around a convention alone. I haven’t been able to stomach the risk of being afraid to get out of my car in my own driveway because I’ve expressed an opinion that someone on the internet didn’t agree with.


Then this happened:


Just minutes after her post was made, a commenter with the username “gaimerg8” posted what they claimed was her address and personal email in the comment section below the post. The comment, and the entire comment section, have since been removed.

[drave]

And that is the biggest problem.

The legitimate "Gamer Gate" movement alleges not to take part in said actions. However, the vile people that decide to make private info public have hijacked the name and will continue to take these types of actions indefinitely.

Sucks for everyone involved :(

[road doggy dogg]

Fucking scumbags.

[drave]

If this whole thing does not stop, I can see the government stepping in and justifying ending internet anonymity citing this entire fiasco.

[Heisenberg]

Felicia Day is a saint, if she is in danger then I'll make whoever harms her pay.

[drave]

Indeed. Just gotta find them first. If someone is savvy enough to gain access to that level of personal info, they will be difficult, if not impossible to find :(

[Hanso Amore]

The biggest question here is at th root, who fucking cares and why does this even matter.

This is a scandal to the self obsessed, entitled, out of touch with reality Internet generation. Who fucking cares. This isnt important at all.

guys, we have EBOLA AND ISIS AND THE WORLD IS ENDING.

[road doggy dogg]

Didn't a few of these clowns threaten to shoot up a university the one woman was set to speak at?

[Vastardikai]

I know that while TotalBiscuit is a big supporter of Gamergate, Angry Joe is not. There were many remarks I saw about how he wasn't in favor of Journalistic Ethics.

#3 on this video, by the way...
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/54s_jyjMUxY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[road doggy dogg]

Laura Croft

[Kalyx triaD]

Still think this one is no one's business - on either side.


Is this the review you refer to? (http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/13/6957677/bayonetta-2-review-wii-u)

No. That review was more than likely a bait article. It was less than three whole paragraphs and it reads like a caricature of what they know we hate about game today's game reviews. I'm referring to how reviews were written in the last console generation. I've had issues with that years before GamerGate.

If so, they talk about both subjects - graphics, new gameplay featuers, as well as the over-sexualization of the main character. Oddly enough, a pretty decent chunk of the game is it's art direction, which has to do with her clothes coming off as you chain higher combos. As as integral part of the game mechanics, albeit visually, it can still be offensive to some people and they can have their opinion. In addition, you do not know that it did not help a potential buyer, unless you believe everyone is as in-depth a gamer as you say.

I would assume the kind of person, not even a hardcore gamer just a casual type, could look at Bayo's marketing and kinda know what they're in for. So while most people may be as in-dept as me and others, they don't need to. Hell, the Bayo2 review you linked - that writer doesn't need to be a versed in action games as I am either. He didn't need to be the kind of guy who Platinum rated all of Bayo1's challenged, or climbed 30 levels in DMC4's Bloody Palace; but there are degrees.

A lot of today's game reviews are shallow and at times totally paid parts of the marketing. It's easy to spot. Does a guy reviewing a fighting game need to know why meter management is important in BlazBlue? No. Hell, I actually like when they reveal they don't know about that deep stuff, but what is the value of a review written from the other end of the spectrum? People who seem to not know the point of the game? What good is that to a potential buyer?

If I started writing car reviews, with my extremely casual knowledge of cars, and said something like, "The new Camaro may excite fans of a certain yellow autobot, but unless it wants to further push women away from the sacred car enthusiast circle - it should really consider women's body proportions in more ways than simple seat adjustment."

Now I certainly have a right to say that, but what do you think will be the common reaction? Here's this guy who doesn't seem to know duck about cars, critiquing cars, and applying politics where nobody saw it before. I mean, this could help potential buyers. Perhaps some women would like to read that message, but I'm guessing other women who knows their cars would still find me ridiculous.

Let's make it interesting; I decide to Tweet to detractors of my marvelous Camaro that their beef with my piece is just them defending their boys club and rejecting female interests. I then make a follow-up piece that challenges Chevy to make a statement this the matter of female accommodation. I ignore female car enthusiast telling me I'm using shame tactics, and make implications that the male critics are just dismissive of women's issues. Remember; I'm a guy who still knows shit about cars next to an enthusiast.

My problem is not that people have opinions. It never was. But I'm learning throughout this debacle that people think opinion are all weighted the same by virtue of being opinions. And that's not how it works. Me saying my review could help potential buyers falls flat when much better reviews from more versed people would do a better job helping the same consumers.

The problem lies that as the GG movement grew, the trolling was way out in front and now any and any associations are tied to the movement. Just as any "hot button" multimedia topic, it will die down given time. It is before that time (such as now) that GG, as a unified movement, to reinvent themselves and their image.

Curious; how would we go about that? Because we'd still hold journalists accountable and contact companies when needed. Changing the name would not put trolls at bay, they'd just act out under this new GG 2.0. And if anything, rebranding the movement would also validate that most of the harassment has been on our side. Like the republican ad that needed to say they're people too. We don't need to rebrand ourselves as people against harassment because we are right now people against harassment. No matter what we call ourselves trolls will take advantage.

[Kalyx triaD]

This man was on NPR recently:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0pJHMKCUAE61fg.jpg

[Tom Guycott]

And that is the biggest problem.

The legitimate "Gamer Gate" movement alleges not to take part in said actions. However, the vile people that decide to make private info public have hijacked the name and will continue to take these types of actions indefinitely.

Sucks for everyone involved :(

Kinda falls back to that Tea Party analogy. What started as a collection of cons and libs coming together about taxation and fiscal responsibility was invaded by droves of right wing nutjobs who are convinced that the anti-Christ, unamerican black president will take guns, unilaterally abolish term limits, and impose martial law. There may be people who believe in the initial cause, but the name has been dragged through the mud- mostly by assholes who gleefully drag it through the mud and feeling like they belong.

So in this, where you have hundreds of people on mission about trying to keep a discernable division between journalism, opinions, and propaganda, you have THOUSANDS under the same banner who just think its fun to harass folks in anonymity and claim they're doing it for "women" or "race" or whatever thin veil they decide to wear... and all the while building a larger and larger pool of ammunition for those they are fighting against to point and say "look at these monsters!"

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Both groups are mislabeled also. Boston Tea Parties dropped tea because they didn't have representation in Parliament. Tea Parties had representation in Congress but didn't like how they did things.

Gamergate is mislabed because there is no controversy other than them existing. There was no elicit affair that benefited the girl except for probably bad gamer nerd sex.

[Destor]

Both groups are mislabeled also. Boston Tea Parties dropped tea because they didn't have representation in Parliament. Tea Parties had representation in Congress but didn't like how they did things.

Gamergate is mislabed because there is no controversy other than them existing. There was no elicit affair that benefited the girl except for probably bad gamer nerd sex.
Probably the most accurate thing said on the topic.

[DaveBrawl]

I am all in favor of Kalyx trolling Chevrolet and possibly forcing them to change the Camaro.

[Kalyx triaD]

ooohhh

[Miotch]

Let's say we buckle and reboot ourselves. New name, a leadership counsel, all of that. But then the trolling continues. What then?

Why reboot? Why not just shut it down completely? The aim of what you're trying to accomplish isn't going to happen, and frankly it's somewhat silly. You can point to trolls being the bad guys all you want, but even if that is the case the movement gives them the cover to do so. Read an article on Uproxx today that sums it up better than I could say it.

What would you say to any GamerGaters who got to the end of this instead of skipping down to the comments?


Simply this: If you look at the facts, people are being hurt. Because of their opinions about games. Games are fun, but they shouldn’t be the most meaningful thing in your life. If you put a consumer product ahead of the health and safety of other people, that shows a profound lack of perspective. In short, it’s not about you. So stop trying to make it that way.

People are getting hurt. Even if it's "not actually your movement" why not just knock it the fuck off for the greater good?

[Miotch]

And before you respond, the greater good is not transparency in video game press.

[Kalyx triaD]

Why reboot? Why not just shut it down completely? The aim of what you're trying to accomplish isn't going to happen.

Then I guess we have nothing to talk about, sorry.

[Miotch]

So you don't have any answers to my questions. OK then.

[Kalyx triaD]

I don't see any question you can't gleam answers from past posts in this thread. If you're not satisfied with them I honestly can't help you. When you ask why not shut it down, and then posit that we'll never accomplish our goals - what am I supposed to say to that? You seem fairly decided and don't seem to be inquiring from an honest, neutral stance. I can't help that, dude. If you think GG is this stupid thing that will not get anything done, there's nothing I can tell you to change that. I'm not gonna go back and forth over that.

And I can't help but think some of you kinda want me to devolve into this frothing raged gamer you have pictured in your head when you mention GG. All I've ever done in this thread was explain the situation best I can, drop some links, explain the goals and actions, and overall be that GG representative. Your thoughts after all that are well and good, and I even suggested you find another GG peep if you feel my posts were unsatisfactory.

But here's what isn't on the table:
- Me agreeing that GG is 'stupid' and should end outright, at best I could agree that some kind of reboot could be order since the name is tainted possibly beyond repair.
- Being pushed into defending the harassment of Zoe Quinn (or anybody), after already posting we weren't about that.
- Agreeing that Quinn having sex started GG, when I already said it was the press reaction that started the movement in regard to games journalism.

I've made myself available for questions about all of this and I simply can't promise you'd be satisfied with the answers. That's all on you. I can only answer to the best of my ability. And questions that double back on stuff I already covered I just don't have the patience to reiterate. Drave is a good example of somebody asking perfectly fair and honest questions. Don't ask me to respond to loaded questions and statements that ignore past posts.

[Raven Reaper]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/d1QE66XioZc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

*applause* on this one...

[Raven Reaper]

Anita just tweeted saying IT'S MOSTLY MEN who are into violent gun shootings.. She just lost credibility for GamerGate overall. Fuck this.

[Wehttam]

explain why

[Raven Reaper]

Why?! That's like saying, Women aren't violent they don't shoot people. Only men do that.. Then again, women who are in prisons don't exist to her at all. Go figure.

Generalizing harassment or threats of gun violence based on one gender doesn't help either. It's a fucking social issue not a gender based issue. Got it?

Example: I'm a man myself and I Don't own guns and she says that kind of shit in my face, well, she can fuck off. I'm not a gun owner violent shithead am I?

Quote of the day to sum this up: "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. [...] those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

[Kalyx triaD]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0wDA8ICcAALm9P.jpghttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0wDBHtCYAAbXnd.jpg

This should destroy her reputation, but she's escaped scrutiny before. I would like to see how her and Jon's move into more mainstream 'critique' will fare for them.

[Raven Reaper]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/vrAa29D6vbs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Any SJWs answer to this?

[Raven Reaper]

Ironically, she forgets that the shooter also killed his MALE friends as well.. Guess she didn't give a shit about that one.

[Kalyx triaD]

I'm sure she's aware.

Overall I'm happy she went this far. Until this she played it safe.

[The Rogerer]

Please triangulate some statistics that disprove what she said. Please activate your deep blue brain and explain what the stated motivation for his shooting spree were. Please tell us what you'd do to her if you got the chance.

[The Rogerer]

What is it about gamergaters running breathlessly into a room, slapping down a printout from twitter on your desk and going "HA!!!!!......." and then staring silently at you for 5 minutes before staring out the window and going "Ho ho ho it's all over now"

[Raven Reaper]

http://www.realsexism.com/ These statistics help out? Look it up and tell me it's bullshit.

[Kalyx triaD]

Please triangulate some statistics that disprove what she said. Please activate your deep blue brain and explain what the stated motivation for his shooting spree were.

Burden of proof would be on her, sir. The default position to shootings usually isn't to put it on male culture.

Please tell us what you'd do to her if you got the chance.

I'll let this one slide. Pro-Tip: You can't actually say 'anything' you want about people on the internet. Do not misrepresent me as somebody who would threaten to hurt people again. It was a very random dig considering the rest of the post. Chill with that.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Ironically, she forgets that the shooter also killed his MALE friends as well.. Guess she didn't give a shit about that one.

Why would that matter?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Sexist would probably only target chicks.

[Raven Reaper]

Why would that matter?

There you see, you don't care if men get shot too. It's only women who are being killed in violence.. So yeah men don't matter. Women ONLY matter... Fucking equality MY ASS SHIT.

[Raven Reaper]

Why would that matter?

So, I guess if you're saying men don't matter, YOU don't matter if you're a man too.. I guess you won't matter if you're a guy who get shot by other guys too. Fucking idiot.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Sexist would probably only target chicks.

She didn't say sexist, she stated that most perpetrators of mass acts of shooting are male and suggests it is as a result of "toxic male culture". So why would it invalidate that argument if they murder other men while they're at it. The fact is she's entirely correct that it is males who commit these mass acts of violence and indeed most acts of violence, whether she's right specifically about a "toxic male culture" is debatable, obviously, but that's why you express ideas. I don't see why she's wrong for airing that opinion, it's a valid one from her perspective. There's a lot of male anger around aimed at women and society, particularly on the internet.

[Raven Reaper]

Google Women Mass Murderers. There's lots of it. Fucker.

[Destor]

Google Women Mass Murderers. There's lots of it. Fucker.

yet only one mass shooting in america was commited by a woman

[Raven Reaper]

My point is this: Regardless whether male or female of who's more violent even in statistics, BOTH sides are at fault here. Not just the guys..

I also blame the mothers of the killers who didn't get enough attention as a child either. Not because they were born male...

What about when a gamer guy gets bullied for coming out gay in the community and commits suicide? I guess feminists like Anita doesn't give 2 shits about it either.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

My point is this: Regardless whether male or female of who's more violent even in statistics BOTH sides are at fault here. Not just the guys..

I also blame the mothers of the killers who didn't get enough attention as a child either. Not because they were born male...

What about when a gamer guy gets bullied for coming out gay in the community and commits suicide? I guess feminists like Anita doesn't give 2 shits about it either.

What?

[Raven Reaper]

I guess you're homophobic as well if a gay guy commits suicide because he gets bullied within any community even GamerGate.

[thecc]

You are dumb.

And stupid

[Raven Reaper]

But this stupid person doesn't subscribe to "allegations of threats" that simply never happened at Gamergate considering it was a BAD PR publicity stunt.

[ron the dial]

i'm still having a hard time believing this is a real thing.

[Vastardikai]

*This is for Reaper and Kalyx*

What I'm gathering from this last page or so is:

1 female mass shooter is the same as whatever number it is (that is GREATER THAN 1) number of male shooters?

[Wehttam]

while i feel kalyx might be a 'good guy' on whatever side of the argument he is on, raven reaper defintely seems like the stereotypical over-reactor who just looks like a woman hater.

[Kris P Lettus]

After reading this thread, and this being the first ive ever heard of it, I've concluded that this is very stupid.

This.

Also I find it funny that STD said he didn't want to hear about this, then posted sixteen more times discussing it.

[Raven Reaper]

while i feel kalyx might be a 'good guy' on whatever side of the argument he is on, raven reaper defintely seems like the stereotypical over-reactor who just looks like a woman hater.

Reason why is because I don't like Anita who represents everything wrong in the gaming community like labelling everything in games as sexist fantasies for men.. She's no different than a 90s Senator who also thinks DOOM game promotes gun violence.

[Kalyx triaD]

Reaper can be excitable but he's 100% about Anita/Thompson/Senator thing.

Hell, years ago I had a thread (http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=46768&highlight=Thompson)in this forum putting Thompson blast for the same shit Anita's pulling now and the reaction to her quotes and arguments are night and day.

Or, ironically, sexist.

[Raven Reaper]

And for the record, I don't hate women, I just hate the bullshit coming from both gender sides' mouths...

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

This.

Also I find it funny that STD said he didn't want to hear about this, then posted sixteen more times discussing it.

I clarified that by saying I didn't really see any newsworthiness and it was getting in the way of Smelly's news posts.

[Kalyx triaD]

Obviously we have no problem with women and female characters in games. I think that narrative will naturally die out when people see it has no legs to stand on. In fact a great many talking points were killed off over the last few months, which is why they're doubling down on the harassment/doxxing. "Well they have women on their side and they're diverse - but trolls transcend race and gender! They're all trolls!"

What makes that tricky is the news media focuses on one side being fucked with, sustaining GG being the only people doing the harm in the public eye. Unlike the other talking points simply not being that kind of person isn't enough to convince people. Just a single dox on an outspoken anti-GG puts all of GG on the radar. We either did it or support it. And barring that; 'well you're in a group that does it/supports it'. All it has to do is happen and we're screwed, whereas the other stereotypes were beaten by taking action and getting reps out there.

Some game journalists and other people against GG have tweeted approval or support of people getting doxxed. Right there in the open. And people still believe GG are aggressors on that front. Because so long as somebody speaking out against GG gets doxxed, pointing the finger seems to be stronger than any form of evidence. We're still a hate group, because we can't prove a negative.

This is why I really jumped on the idea of dealing with the trolls before we can even continue the conversation of what games journalism should be.

[Raven Reaper]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/qtzrUsi6Y1s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The reporter got owned on this shit.. He must be a feminist himself..

[Kalyx triaD]

I believe he did fine. There were no anti-GG there so he had to beg many questions.

Tone down the rage, dude. I'm with you but being this tempered won't get you far. I've been able to talk with as many feminists and SJWs as I had by not being so aggressive.

[Raven Reaper]

Jemma was the loudest most outspoken girl of the 3 ever saying perfectly clear, "THIS IS NOT WOMEN UNDER ATTACK, THIS IS CORRUPTION IN JOURNALISM EHTICS." Nothing more.

Jemma is like my raging spirit animal, you know. lol.

[Kalyx triaD]

It was annoying how many times he went back to the misogyny angle. It was very good to have three women there (and one feminist!) to help squash that.

[Raven Reaper]

Yeah but that feminist doesn't even subscribe to Anita's sexist version of it.. Thank goodness for NAFALT. lol.

[Kalyx triaD]

A feminist on how she decided which side to take.

http://angelwitchpaganheart.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/thoughts-of-a-feminist-gamer-on-gamergate-gawker-and-tgwtg/

[The Rogerer]

She cares about ethics in journalism, so joins up the people who bother toy makers and write reviews about toys.

You didn't really address the previous point about why point out a relationship between violent crimes and being male is meant to destroy her. I guess the burden of proof is on you to explain why it destroys her rather than posting another hotlink.

[Kalyx triaD]

Her making a post like is that is a parody of why feminism has the image issue it has, and it puts her in opposition of people much smarter than her. She's playing big girl games now and her reputation will crumble now that she chose to elevate herself beyond talking down to gamers. In the forum of ideas you can't just say damning things about any group of people without some damn good backup, and her worst trait is her dishonest research.

I'm very happy she said what she said. And your cute thing about burden of proof and hotlinks doesn't change the fact that she went overbaord.

[Kalyx triaD]

Her dude, however, still takes the cake.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0-4_19IAAEBSkx.jpg:large

[drave]

Her troll, however, still takes the cake.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0-4_19IAAEBSkx.jpg:large



Serious or not, so long as people let stupid things like this deter the true meaning of any "integrity" movement, it will continue on as it has and seemingly get worse.

[Kalyx triaD]

Would I represent you correctly that you think a movement can only have a single goal and any deviation or addition is somehow a deterrence? Is this something you always believed about any movement in the past?

Yes the ultimate goal is integrity with games journalism; but I don't think it's bad to also call out toxic beliefs of where the game journalists get their beliefs, identify irrelevant tones that have arisen in the articles, stand against bullying, etc.

[Kalyx triaD]

On the upside, it's interesting where we get support from. Here's feminist Christina Sommers:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5RVlCvBd21w?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[The Rogerer]

Her making a post like is that is a parody of why feminism has the image issue it has, and it puts her in opposition of people much smarter than her. She's playing big girl games now and her reputation will crumble now that she chose to elevate herself beyond talking down to gamers. In the forum of ideas you can't just say damning things about any group of people without some damn good backup, and her worst trait is her dishonest research.

I'm very happy she said what she said. And your cute thing about burden of proof and hotlinks doesn't change the fact that she went overbaord.Where's your reputation? Please punch holes in the relationship between violent crime and males. Go right ahead. You don't even have to cite sources. Just do it. It's an open goal. Let's have it. FINISH HER. All you have to do is post the explanation. It's right there Kalyx. Come on. You can do it.

[Inadequacy]

Her (or Jon, I guess) ideology has been shown to be ultimately anti-artistic freedom, with thinly veiled shaming as icing on the cake for anyone who tries to engage her. It's so formulaic that a documentary is being made to focus on how she and other SJW/Feminists conduct themselves when called on their arguments/actions.



Are you referring to the documentary that Davis Aurini needs 15,000 dollars a month to make?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/nsdIHK8O5yo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Vastardikai]

https://38.media.tumblr.com/2d44b09e43f60d903fc164f9501e93a5/tumblr_ne4b2nt7zv1r1phbfo1_500.jpg
https://33.media.tumblr.com/3b7b52d9b296d991e33b1debeecff8f2/tumblr_ne4b2nt7zv1r1phbfo2_500.png
https://38.media.tumblr.com/664f79f194dbf904578bdbe6fa495b00/tumblr_ne4b2nt7zv1r1phbfo3_500.png

[Kalyx triaD]

Are you referring to the documentary that Davis Aurini needs 15,000 dollars a month to make?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/nsdIHK8O5yo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yeah they have some interesting guests planned.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Her making a post like is that is a parody of why feminism has the image issue it has, and it puts her in opposition of people much smarter than her. She's playing big girl games now and her reputation will crumble now that she chose to elevate herself beyond talking down to gamers. In the forum of ideas you can't just say damning things about any group of people without some damn good backup, and her worst trait is her dishonest research.

I'm very happy she said what she said. And your cute thing about burden of proof and hotlinks doesn't change the fact that she went overbaord.

She only has a reputation because "gamers" couldn't handle her quite legitimate criticism about games and the way they portray females. In mainstream terms, culturally, she's a nobody precisely because gaming is largely still portrayed as a niche pursuit indulged by teenage nerds and over-grown man-children in their dark bedrooms. Even whether you agree her criticism is legitimate or not, the response to it effectively supports the fact that gaming as an art form or form of media, whichever way you see it, is far too immature to be seen as "mainstream" at this point. There won't be the media crackdown you expect against Anita Sarkeesian because the only people who care about what she says are you and the other overly-sensitive misogynists she antagonises. The response from her detractors will be the same whatever she says and her career as a talking head exists only in opposition to the bone-headed morons who react the most. In fact, throwing this embarrassing behaviour into sharp focus is a good thing. Her remark on males and male culture being mainly responsible for gun violence in the US is not even remotely controversial.

I don't consider myself a "gamer" but someone who has played games my whole life, just as I have watched films and listened to music my whole life. I don't take criticism of games personally, in other words, by someone who takes the time to at least analyse them.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

I have ever once seen any GamerGate person satisfactorily explain how a personal hissy fit from a journalist about an independent games developer has really led to a campaign about journalistic ethics. Taking your cue from a total fuckwit like Adam Baldwin isn't a good start.

[Hanso Amore]

I still love that these fags think game journalism is...journalism. It's fags reviewing games. It's opinions at its core.

Loser fag video gamers trying to justify their actions and pretend they have anything worth living for.

[Hanso Amore]

The fact that this five guys burgers and fries name or topic was ever even involved shows this is just a sophomoric farce. People living in a false world.

[road doggy dogg]

I still love that these fags think game journalism is...journalism. It's fags reviewing games. It's opinions at its core.

Loser fag video gamers trying to justify their actions and pretend they have anything worth living for.

This is why I'm having a difficult time seeing the "message" here.

I'm probably in the small minority with this, but the way I view reviews is that they are entirely subjective. A review, be it of a movie, book, album, or game, is by definition subjective. You are giving YOUR OPINION on how good a piece of work is. Sure, you have the context of its contemporaries to compare it to, but really what a review is is one person's voice on why they did or didn't like the game.

The whole argument against the Bayonetta 2 review, for example, is "why are you putting your personal thoughts about sexism into the review?" My counter to that is, why WOULDN'T you? I had this discussion with a friend the other day. I could see the issue if said reviewer was inconsistent in their review process. If, say, someone was very close-to-the-vest with their reviews normally and only commented on objective benchmarks as often as possible, then suddenly went up on their soapbox to decry how the game is sexist and lowered the score because of that, I could see people being annoyed at bad "journalism" (opinion piece, remember) because of the inconsistency in the review process.



Now, I also understand that most people are fucking morons and treat reviews as gospel, and if a site like IGN gives a game a 7/10 as opposed to a 9.5/10 that can have a real, legitimate effect on the number of sales that game makes. That's unavoidable so long as moronic consumers are willing to let someone else tell them what games to play. The problem lies in that people need to take reviews less seriously and focus less on some stupid arbitrary number and read the content of the review to understand why the reviewer came to that conclusion, then decide at that point if they agree and then if they choose to buy the game as a result.


Anyway whatever, tangential post.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

My favourite film reviewer, Mark Kermode, always talks about problematic themes in films like misogyny, poor portrayal of females or foreigners or other non-white North American male characters, exploitative use of animals etc. where these are present in films. I appreciate hearing about it, that's why I listen to him. These are also problems in films and TV and it's commonly pointed out by critics. Games should be no different. Flagging up an ogling, over-sexualised view of a female protagonist in a game is no less a valid criticism than talking about the gameplay. This is an example of "gamers" needing to grow up.

[Emperor Smeat]

Adobe clarified allegations of them supporting Gamergate and stated the removal of their ads from Gawker was because of a different reason instead. Originally they wanted nothing to do with either side but felt being silent was hurting them more in the end.

A quick recap, in case you haven’t followed it: A Gawker reporter posted a series of tweets that appeared to condone bullying of gamers. We were mistakenly listed as an advertiser on the Gawker website (which we are not), so we asked Gawker to remove our logo (which they did). However, as a result of our logo having appeared on the Gawker website, we received tweets that accused us of condoning bullying. One of our employees innocently responded to one of these tweets saying we don’t advertise on Gawker, that we asked them to remove our logo and that we don’t condone bullying. Unfortunately, that tweet was perceived to support Gamergaters and created a firestorm on Twitter.
https://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2014/10/when-anti-bullying-efforts-backfire.html

"Unfortunately, that tweet was perceived to support Gamergaters and created a firestorm on Twitter," Adobe wrote. A few sentences later, Adobe cut to the chase: "We are not and have never been aligned with Gamergate. We reject all forms of bullying, including the harassment of women by individuals associated with Gamergate."
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/10/after-unclear-tweet-adobe-issues-resounding-anti-gamergate-statement/

[Savio]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0wDA8ICcAALm9P.jpghttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0wDBHtCYAAbXnd.jpg
This is sexist.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

No it isn't. Sexism is discrimination or prejudice based on gender. What Anita Sarkeesian is doing is using twitter to offer a cultural explanation for why men commit more mass shootings and probably trolling gamer nerds who trip on her every word while she's at it. She may very well be incorrect in that reasoning, but she's not being sexist.

[Raven Reaper]

No it isn't. Sexism is discrimination or prejudice based on gender. What Anita Sarkeesian is doing is using twitter to offer a cultural explanation for why men commit more mass shootings and probably trolling gamer nerds who trip on her every word while she's at it. She may very well be incorrect in that reasoning, but she's not being sexist.

How about Toxic Femininity? Would that be sexist too?

http://image.basekit.com/bkpam293229_1366209889001.jpeg

Hahaha.

[Heisenberg]

How about Toxic Femininity? Would that be sexist too?



Hahaha.

Hey, check it out. *drops mic*

http://i.imgur.com/d3UOq.gif

[Heisenberg]

http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lojg04IJCQ1qf4hamo1_500.png

[Raven Reaper]

No it isn't. Sexism is discrimination or prejudice based on gender. What Anita Sarkeesian is doing is using twitter to offer a cultural explanation for why men commit more mass shootings and probably trolling gamer nerds who trip on her every word while she's at it. She may very well be incorrect in that reasoning, but she's not being sexist.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-06nLEE4-Ni8/UimFaSt5ZEI/AAAAAAAAAek/wQtU3P09DB8/s400/1240438_3454917068827_1527806950_n.jpg

[Heisenberg]

http://www.wrestlenewz.com/wrestling/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Randy-Orton-World-Title.jpg

I beg to differ Triple Reap, get your ass back in the ring and explain yourself!! Nobody is going to cut a promo on ECG and easily get away with it. Last week on TPWW I RKO'ed your post to the ground. I deserve a shot at the next KOTF. I'm not going to get upstaged again, no way shitstain.

I am Heisenberg, I am Borderline Jesus

[Savio]

This is why I'm having a difficult time seeing the "message" here.

I'm probably in the small minority with this, but the way I view reviews is that they are entirely subjective. A review, be it of a movie, book, album, or game, is by definition subjective. You are giving YOUR OPINION on how good a piece of work is. Sure, you have the context of its contemporaries to compare it to, but really what a review is is one person's voice on why they did or didn't like the game.

The whole argument against the Bayonetta 2 review, for example, is "why are you putting your personal thoughts about sexism into the review?" My counter to that is, why WOULDN'T you? I had this discussion with a friend the other day. I could see the issue if said reviewer was inconsistent in their review process. If, say, someone was very close-to-the-vest with their reviews normally and only commented on objective benchmarks as often as possible, then suddenly went up on their soapbox to decry how the game is sexist and lowered the score because of that, I could see people being annoyed at bad "journalism" (opinion piece, remember) because of the inconsistency in the review process.



Now, I also understand that most people are fucking morons and treat reviews as gospel, and if a site like IGN gives a game a 7/10 as opposed to a 9.5/10 that can have a real, legitimate effect on the number of sales that game makes. That's unavoidable so long as moronic consumers are willing to let someone else tell them what games to play. The problem lies in that people need to take reviews less seriously and focus less on some stupid arbitrary number and read the content of the review to understand why the reviewer came to that conclusion, then decide at that point if they agree and then if they choose to buy the game as a result.


Anyway whatever, tangential post.
I thought Gamer Gate was more about having game reviews not influenced by outside sources (The publishers, Doritos, Fuck Buddy of the reviewer) and not the whole sexism thing, I thought that was 2 different topics all together.

[Savio]

No it isn't. Sexism is discrimination or prejudice based on gender. What Anita Sarkeesian is doing is using twitter to offer a cultural explanation for why men commit more mass shootings and probably trolling gamer nerds who trip on her every word while she's at it. She may very well be incorrect in that reasoning, but she's not being sexist.
If instead of saying this:

Not a coincidence it’s always men and boys committing mass shootings. The pattern is connected to ideas of toxic masculinity in our culture.

She said this:

Not a coincidence it’s always Blacks and Hispanics committing crimes. The pattern is connected to ideas of ghetto mentality in our culture.would that not be considered racist?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

[Raven Reaper]

If instead of saying this:


She said this:
would that not be considered racist?


http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/002/936/757/7299f06ec097283bffe940542ddb2578_crop_north.jpg?w=543&h=361&q=75

[Vastardikai]

I thought Gamer Gate was more about having game reviews not influenced by outside sources (The publishers, Doritos, Fuck Buddy of the reviewer) and not the whole sexism thing, I thought that was 2 different topics all together.

It depends on who is doing the talking. At least with Kalyx, I can feel he believes in the former, to an extent. I have gotten the vibe from certain other people, they've posted a bit in this thread, they use the former as a justification to do the latter.

For instance, why are the main people the Gamergaters going after are the developers, and not the journalists?

[Kalyx triaD]

Who are the 'main people'?

It's been gaming press companies mostly.

[Kalyx triaD]

Like, what would 'going after' even mean in regard to Quinn, Fish, and Wu? For what? They certainly come up often but what they do isn't important in the bigger scheme of things.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

If instead of saying this:


She said this:
would that not be considered racist?

It could be suggested it is because you (not her) used the term "ghetto mentality." Ghetto itself is an antiquated racist term. It was utterly inevitable that you would exchange the original terms for one referring to race to hope to make your point, but you changed the entire emphasis while you were doing it. I'd like to think Anita Sarkeesian would be a bit more nuanced than you when making a statement like that.

[road doggy dogg]

I thought Gamer Gate was more about having game reviews not influenced by outside sources (The publishers, Doritos, Fuck Buddy of the reviewer) and not the whole sexism thing, I thought that was 2 different topics all together.

Hence why I indicated that that post was only tangentially related (seemed a fitting place to put it)

[El Capitano Gatisto]

How about Toxic Femininity? Would that be sexist too?

http://image.basekit.com/bkpam293229_1366209889001.jpeg

Hahaha.

Always read a study yourself before believing the nice pie charts. That is an interesting finding, but one that offers no general insight into the argument you are trying to make. The authors of the study can outline this themselves:

There are several limitations of this work.
The first set centers around the measures of
partner violence. All measures were assessed
using only participant reports about their own
perpetration of violence and that of their partners.
The data are thus subject to all the biases
and limitations inherent to this form of
data collection, such as recall bias, social desirability
bias, and reporting bias. Regarding
reporting biases, there has been much discussion
of whether there are differences in reported
IPV by the gender of the reporter. A
meta-analysis of the reliability of the conflict
tactics scale concluded that there is evidence
of underreporting by both genders, and that
underreporting may be greater for men,34 for
more severe acts of IPV.21 It would have been
ideal to collect violence data from both partners,
but those data were not collected from
the full Add Health sample.
A second measurement issue pertains to the
scope of violence measures. The 3 questionsincluded in the Add Health study do not capture
all forms of violence that occur between
relationship partners, including many of the
more severe forms of partner violence on the
Conflict Tactics Scale (e.g., used a knife or
gun, choked, or burned). Questions about
emotional, verbal, psychological, or sexual aggression
were also not included. Similarly,
only a single item assessed injury to victims
and it focused on injury frequency and excluded
injury severity and whether medical
attention was needed or sought. Thus, it is
unclear whether the data presented here
would be similar had the violence and injury
assessment been more thorough or if different
forms of violence had been measured and
analyzed separately. Perhaps more important
than the limited measures of violence and injury
is the fact that no data were collected
about the causes or function of violence. Such
data are needed to understand why relationships
with reciprocal violence are more violent
and more likely to result in injury. We
speculated that retaliation may lead to escalating
violence and injury, but data are
needed to examine this hypothesis. Future
studies should focus on the causes and context
of reciprocal and nonreciprocal IPV.
Another limitation is that the Add Health
study obtained partner violence data primarily
about relationships considered to be important
as defined by the Add research team.
Thus, it is not clear how this selection bias
may have impacted the findings—that is,
whether the findings would be the same with
a fuller sample of relationships. However, our
findings are consistent with previous research
on other samples that have shown reciprocal
partner violence is fairly common with adolescents11
and with broader populations.8,9
Finally, as noted, the data collected were part
of a nationally representative sample selected
when participants were in middle and high
school. The use of a nationally representative
sample greatly increases the generalizability
of the findings, but this particular sample is of
limited range in age (18–28 years) and likely
does not include the most severely abused
victims who are subjected to extreme control
by their partners and may be unable or unwilling
to participate in research.22

Apologies for the formatting, I have copied that from the study. It is a common tactic for smarmy internet sites to cherry-pick study findings from academia and employ colourful pie charts to try to make some sort of wider point. When you look at the methods of this study, all of those limitations are obvious, which is why the authors have stated them.

[Big Vic]

You are wrong ECG, it doesn't matter if ghetto mentality, or thug mentality or whatever was plugged in there.

Saying "It's always *this group of people* that does *this bad thing*" is prejudicial. It doesn't matter what hypothesis she put there afterwards.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

You are wrong ECG, it doesn't matter if ghetto mentality, or thug mentality or whatever was plugged in there.

Saying "It's always *this group of people* that does *this bad thing*" is prejudicial. It doesn't matter what hypothesis she put there afterwards.

Incorrect. Only if it is not "always" men or boys committing these mass shootings would it be prejudicial. I suppose you could quibble the use of "always" if you wanted to be anal in an effort to try to pin the "sexist" label on her, but it is, essentially, males who commit these acts of violence with some rare exceptions. Her point also, is not that males are inherently more violent but that problematic social ideas of masculinity are responsible. She doesn't say "masculine culture" is responsible, which would be the analogous term to using the racial terms you are using, she says "toxic ideas of masculinity" and of "manhood" which is completely different. This should be obvious, but the desperation to pin hypocritic bigotry on a social commentator who is making uncomfortable arguments is always more appealing than actually examining the argument she is making. Even if she was sexist, she would still have a point about mass shootings.

[Big Vic]

The word "always" makes it sexist though, if she replaced "always" with "emotionally troubled" it would have made it better.

[road doggy dogg]

what

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Also why is she trying to equate sexism to why shootings occur? Isn't it usually just being bullied or some sort of isolation or mental illness? Seems like she's just grasping at straws because she wants to make some grand point that falls way short.

It's a two-way street for parenting. If parenting has anything to do with it. Trying to blame it all on the men is sexist. Just because males commit the violence doesn't mean sexism has anything to do with it. She's nothing more than another person blaming "rock music" or "rap lyrics." A Full of shit, opportunistic, liar.

[Heisenberg]

she is somebody's daughter and until you've walked a mile in her heels I suggest laying off the threats to her life

[road doggy dogg]

This thread is becoming fantastically derailed with all sorts of ridiculousness.

[Big Vic]

Also why is she trying to equate sexism to why shootings occur? Isn't it usually just being bullied or some sort of isolation or mental illness? Seems like she's just grasping at straws because she wants to make some grand point that falls way short.

It's a two-way street for parenting. If parenting has anything to do with it. Trying to blame it all on the men is sexist. Just because males commit the violence doesn't mean sexism has anything to do with it. She's nothing more than another person blaming "rock music" or "rap lyrics." A Full of shit, opportunistic, liar.
I don't think she is blaming sexism. I think what she is saying is that the men and boys play the video games (or watch the action movies) and want to act it out in real life.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

The word "always" makes it sexist though, if she replaced "always" with "emotionally troubled" it would have made it better.

What are you on about?

"Always" only makes it sexist if you're trying to make a boring semantic argument about whether "always" means 100% of the time vs 99% of the time. Either way her argument is true that the vast majority of mass shootings are carried out by males and if you start quibbling it with exceptions, you're only really strengthening her argument by highlighting the massive gender discrepancy.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

I don't think she is blaming sexism. I think what she is saying is that the men and boys play the video games (or watch the action movies) and want to act it out in real life.

She didn't say anything about games in those tweets. Where have you got this from? Were there further tweets where she blamed games for mass shootings?

She clearly states she feels sexist ideas are behind it, makes no mention of games, yet you say here she is not blaming sexism and is blaming games.

[drave]

This thread is becoming fantastically derailed with all sorts of ridiculousness.

Kinda like the whole "movement". Honestly feel as if it has become a parody of itself.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Also why is she trying to equate sexism to why shootings occur? Isn't it usually just being bullied or some sort of isolation or mental illness? Seems like she's just grasping at straws because she wants to make some grand point that falls way short.

It's a two-way street for parenting. If parenting has anything to do with it. Trying to blame it all on the men is sexist. Just because males commit the violence doesn't mean sexism has anything to do with it. She's nothing more than another person blaming "rock music" or "rap lyrics." A Full of shit, opportunistic, liar.

What are you even fucking talk about here?

Do you think it is more or less problematic to stigmatise mental health with acts of mass violence than to blame it on sexism? I personally feel that writing off mass shootings as down to spontaneous acts of insanity is much less helpful, stigmatises people with mental health problems and is a complete abdication of social responsibility. Furthermore, acts of violence against others and oneself, even in the context of mental health problems, are strongly socially influenced anyway.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Also, do any of you realise that the only reason anyone even knows Anita Sarkeesian's name is because of the virulent response from gamers to her youtube videos? Why are gamers so insecure?

Many of the things she points out about games are an embarrassment to normal adult males who play games.

[Big Vic]

I like her videos although I don't agree with everything she says. Wife showed me her before all of this blew up.She didn't say anything about games in those tweets. Where have you got this from? Were there further tweets where she blamed games for mass shootings?

She clearly states she feels sexist ideas are behind it, makes no mention of games, yet you say here she is not blaming sexism and is blaming games.
She talks of this stuff in her videos. Do you watch her videos?

[Vastardikai]

Like, what would 'going after' even mean in regard to Quinn, Fish, and Wu? For what? They certainly come up often but what they do isn't important in the bigger scheme of things.

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

How many journalists have been doxed for reasons other than bitching about Gamergate? Show me the big action you guys have planned against Game Informer, the video game review magazine run by a video game store. Discuss a conflict of interest in video game journalism, besides Dorito-Gate, that has really eaten at you.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

I like her videos although I don't agree with everything she says. Wife showed me her before all of this blew up.
She talks of this stuff in her videos. Do you watch her videos?

I have watched some of her videos, but why are you making a link between those and this tweet? She talks about a lot of things in her youtube videos, not just games.

[Big Vic]

Because ideas of "toxic masculinity" are often portrayed in video games and movies.......

[El Capitano Gatisto]

And?

[Big Vic]

.................and she said "toxic masculinity"........

[El Capitano Gatisto]

What is your point?

[road doggy dogg]

You seem to be really caught on the semantics of most things in this argument.

Identifying something as "toxicly masculine" != "all masculine behaviour is toxic"