Wake me up when december ends

[The CyNick]

The most perplexing thing to me in this thread, is CyNick's stance on Daniel Bryan (the correct one I might add), vs. Everyone else's opinions.


At Summerslam 2013, Daniel Bryan didn't just beat John Cena.........he went over the guy cleanly. Period. Then, AFTER all that, we saw the Triple H/Randy Orton screw job on Bryan, along with the birth of The Authority.


How do you guys NOT see that event as the start of a long term angle? (with the obvious intention of Daniel Bryan ultimately going over?!?). Like holy fuck.


Don't get me wrong - I have a lot of respect for many of the posters in this thread (Dale Newstead, Noid, Damien Rey, etc., etc.), but lets face it. You guys flat out tasted CyNick's penis in this thread, and especially this argument.


If the WWE really had zero intention of pushing Daniel Bryan in a massive way, they would NOT have had him go over John Cena cleanly.


If we're operating under the assumption that, "Controversy sells," then do you NOT think that Dave Batista winning the Royal Rumble was one of the most ingenious things that the WWE has ever done? (knowing full well that backlash that would occur amongst both marks AND the IWC).


C'mon people. :nono:

There were times I thought I was the only one who saw things like that.

The problem is Dave Meltzer wrote 15,000 words about how "sources say Daniel was never supposed to go over, it heh heh, just sorta happened. And heh heh, ya know, plans change"

[The CyNick]

I completely agree with this 1000% percent.


The only thing I would have done differently, would be in having Daniel Bryan winning cleanly over Wyatt, and then having Bryan get screwed in the actual Royal Rumble (Bryan enters).


The WWE were lucky that Bryan was 'over' to such a large extent, that losing cleanly to Bray didn't hurt him, but I'm a fan of that type of booking. When you've got a hot star like that, you protect him as much as you can. No reason whatsoever to have Daniel jobbing to Bray.


Other than though, I agree with everything you said.

At the time I remember thinking that I thought they were setting up Wyatt to face Bryan down the line. He could use the whole I beat you before, now I'll do it for the Rumble. Would have been an effective angle for Bryan because he was always positioned as the underdog. Now here's a guy who Bryan actually lost to, and he has to find a way to beat him to hang on to the belt. Of course he would then beat Wyatt.

The thing I would have changed is actually have Bryan win at the Feb PPV to earn the shot, but I think they liked the concept of the fans forcing The Authority's hand. Which played in the idea of the "YES Movement"

[The CyNick]

The main reason Bryan beat Cena cleanly was more due to Cena needing time off and WWE needing a top face to quickly take Cena's spot. Only reason Cena never got his chance to get a win back was because by the time the situation would be ripe for it, Bryan was getting derailed with injuries.

Once Cena came back, Bryan was quickly put to the side and relegated to semi-minor status in the Authority feud. Crowd began to rebell once they saw the WWE didn't really cared for Bryan and wanted the focus on Cena vs Orton/Authority only. Got worse with the rebelling once it became obvious the WWE wanted Batista to get the big win over the Authority and not Bryan at Mania.

They could have easily just had Bryan lose or have a no contest and then have Orton come in to cash in MITB. The fact that they constantly screwed Bryan was part of the larger angle IMO.

[The CyNick]

Bryan beating Cena could be seen as many things. A trial, a grace, a good booking decision, an attempt at an immediate ratings spike, Cena needing time off. Granted, I've had the same conspiracy theory in my head before. Maybe, just maybe the WWE worked out that bad booking is the good booking. Maybe that's why they had Sheamus beat him in 18 seconds at WrestleMania 28? Brilliant. Maybe that's why they delayed his eventual rise by two years, despite knowing that his health couldn't have been great going into WrestleMania 31 when the best choice was to have him return and win the Rumble, so they didn't, but still put him in the match and had him drop out like an afterthought.

I'm running my sentences together here, but come on, guys. I love Heyman and do have some love for CyNick the human and the old poster, but the idea that it was a masterplan all along is pretty bullshit. Right down to them booking Orton vs. Bryan together until it couldn't probably ever do business again.

The only other time I had that same conspiracy "bad booking is the good booking" idea is when I saw The New Day start to gain traction as a heel group. No wonder Vince debuted them as bland babyfaces that could never win a match! It was the Rocky Maivia/Rock plan all along! Brilliant.

Then The New Day came out and said Vince legit thought that they would be over as faces. And there are countless other documented examples where Vince has been out of touch with reality. It's not moronic to assume that the WWE fucked up. Especially when you can see how the aftermath of it all affected the WWE's relationships with other performers, such as Batista and CM Punk (regardless of what their own egos had to do with things).

They legitimately sidetracked Bryan from the main feud which they were already dragging out. By the same token, if this were a master plan, the same thing would have been achieved by Dean Ambrose last year when he got pulled out of his feud with Seth Rollins to go against Bray Wyatt. He wasn't going to go away. But Bryan was just un-fuckable at that point.

CyNick's arguments revolve almost entirely around "Look at what happened when the WWE was critically successful! It was criticially successful, right? It must have been planned!" He beat Cena? That was huge. And it was an angle to build to something. No one is saying it wasn't. It's just that no one else is naive enough to give the WWE credit for giving someone a credible reverse push when they can't even push guys successfully.

And what good will it builds for the company to allow the credit of their product to be attributed to a conspiracy theory. It's not like NASA did a real moon landing to stage a fake.

My reasoning for the Bryan thing being planned is A) he beat Cena clean and B) The Authority screwed him left and right for MONTHS

If you dont want Bryan is the main event picture, you have him look good against Cena, but ultimately lose. Orton then cashes in MITB. Then and this is key, you would use Bryan to heat up Orton and put him over clean until Cena is back and can chase Orton.

[The CyNick]

Sorry guys - limits on my time but I'll try and respond to as many posts as possible.


I would argue that the plan was brilliant, and that the time period between Summerslam 2013 and Wrestlemania 30 was probably the hottest that the WWE had been in years. Not sure if the ratings reflected this at all (haven't checked), but the Daniel Bryan 'Yes!' movement was probably the most over thing that the WWE had in about a decade or so. Daniel Bryan became even more popular after fans (both marks and IWC) perceived him being held back.


Who knows where the business would be today if Bryan's career hadn't been derailed after Mania that year.

Exactly. Bryan was over huge at Mania. Its not like WWE planned for Bryan to get hurt and make the previous 8 months of build a waste of time.

[BigCrippyZ]

I think the issue isn't that Vince & Co. didn't see Bryan as a main event level talent at all, instead they just didn't see Bryan as a potential Wrestlemania main event headliner.

In other words, Vince & Co. realized they needed someone to fill the Cena void while he was out. They decided to have Bryan main event and beat Cena at Summerslam. Then they said, we'll screw Bryan out of the title for Bryan to have a brief main event program with Orton, "Authority", etc. until Cena gets back and then we'll move Bryan into another non-main event program or two (Wyatt and then Sheamus) in time for Mania.

Again, not that they didn't see Bryan as main event material at all, they just didn't view him as Wrestlemania main event, top of the card, headliner material.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

crippy has it right

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think the issue isn't that Vince & Co. didn't see Bryan as a main event level talent at all, instead they just didn't see Bryan as a potential Wrestlemania main event headliner.

In other words, Vince & Co. realized they needed someone to fill the Cena void while he was out. They decided to have Bryan main event and beat Cena at Summerslam. Then they said, we'll screw Bryan out of the title for Bryan to have a brief main event program with Orton, "Authority", etc. until Cena gets back and then we'll move Bryan into another non-main event program or two (Wyatt and then Sheamus) in time for Mania.

Again, not that they didn't see Bryan as main event material at all, they just didn't view him as Wrestlemania main event, top of the card, headliner material.

This.

If you go and watch the Daniel Bryan "Monster" video, they don't even include the Cena vs. Bryan match in there. It cuts from Bryan "challenging" for the WWE Title (with no previous mention of his World Heavyweight Title win or subsequent WWE Title wins either), to getting screwed to his issues with The Authority. It's not one big glorious story.

[Big Vic]

My reasoning for the Bryan thing being planned is A) he beat Cena clean and B) The Authority screwed him left and right for MONTHS

If you dont want Bryan is the main event picture, you have him look good against Cena, but ultimately lose. Orton then cashes in MITB. Then and this is key, you would use Bryan to heat up Orton and put him over clean until Cena is back and can chase Orton.
After Bryan lost to Orton in HIAC he lost cleanly to Orton once more on Raw (or maybe smackdown) before getting deep into his feud with Wyatt

[The CyNick]

"Why would they put someone cleanly over John Cena if they didn't have a long term angle for them?"

"Lets ask Kevin Owens"

Owens beating to Cena was to establish Owens as a top guy right off the bat. Again, would you prefer he was booked like Neville?

[The CyNick]

After Bryan lost to Orton in HIAC he lost cleanly to Orton once more on Raw (or maybe smackdown) before getting deep into his feud with Wyatt

I dont recall the result of every single match, I just know more often than not, Bryan was the one winning matches, and when he did lose, he was MASSIVELY protected. Thats not how WWE books when they want to push someone out of the main event.

But whatever, yo're not going to change your mind despite a mountain of evidence. Its cool.

[The CyNick]

This.

If you go and watch the Daniel Bryan "Monster" video, they don't even include the Cena vs. Bryan match in there. It cuts from Bryan "challenging" for the WWE Title (with no previous mention of his World Heavyweight Title win or subsequent WWE Title wins either), to getting screwed to his issues with The Authority. It's not one big glorious story.

That was just to make the Mania win seem like it was the first time he won the title. Regardless, you're still pointing to him getting screwed by The Authority constantly, which is clearly part of a large storyline.

[Big Vic]

I dont recall the result of every single match, I just know more often than not, Bryan was the one winning matches, and when he did lose, he was MASSIVELY protected. Thats not how WWE books when they want to push someone out of the main event.

But whatever, yo're not going to change your mind despite a mountain of evidence. Its cool.I only see a big mountain of theory

[The CyNick]

I only see a big mountain of theory

Not theory when it actually happened.

[Big Vic]

Thermite paint

[Big Vic]

We aren't discussing if WrestleMania 30 happened.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

how is this thread still going on?

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't know. You, or whoever said it, was right. CyNick has a way, whether he's serious or not, of getting you to keep trying to reason with him long after it's clear that that isn't possible. Before you know it you're on page 7.

[The CyNick]

I dont need people to reason with me. When I read guys like you bitch about the product non stop, it makes me glad that I dont agree with you, because I still look forward to watching RAW every week, hence why I continue to watch.

The ironic thing is guys like you actually cant take that I dont agree with the IWC sheep mentality that you buy into. Thats not meant as an insult to you individually, rather the group you.

[#1-norm-fan]

*Meltzer sheep

[#1-norm-fan]

In all honesty, it's fine that you enjoy the product. No one has a problem with that. But when you start to argue actual points about the merits of product and then do stuff like you're doing in that Rollins thread below (see: CyNick thread #217), people are going to point out how troll-ish you come off.

[The CyNick]

I come off trollish for defending why I enjoy the product? Or why I dont buy into the theory that WWE is terrible at booking even though they continue to be wildly successful?

Interesting.

[#1-norm-fan]

WWE sheep.

[The CyNick]

WWE sheep.

So you keep paying to read the Observer, I'll continue to watch WWE

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah, I'm big on reading the Observer.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I dont need people to reason with me. When I read guys like you bitch about the product non stop, it makes me glad that I dont agree with you, because I still look forward to watching RAW every week, hence why I continue to watch.

The ironic thing is guys like you actually cant take that I dont agree with the IWC sheep mentality that you buy into. Thats not meant as an insult to you individually, rather the group you.

I guess it's great to have painfully low expectations.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Also it's perfectly fine that you enjoy the product, it's the fact that you feel the need to attack our stance and opinion and completely generalize that makes you a cast off.

For instance, I'd say Anybody Thrilla as a whole LOVES the product, sure he throws in random jibes at it, but he generally is quite positive. Yet, we don't have these absolutely ridiculous arguments with him. You come off as some kind of robot. You don't really pay attention to what we're actually saying, you just say we read Dave Meltzer. I assure you, 90 per cent of the posters here don't read f4w, nor do they like Dave Meltzer. He's actually a bit irritating.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Noid as well is actually pretty positive. I rarely see him be overly critical... but he also doesn't make ludicrous generalizations against those who disagree with him, and doesn't have so weird ego centric agenda against the IWC.

[Savio]

I don't listen to any wrestling podcast at the moment and have given up because I don't see these stories going anywhere nothing is really attractive to me about the product. I do enjoy watching lesnar wrestle but no interested in seeing him fight Big Show for the 30th time or Taker again. He should be destroying Taker, nothing short of that.

I didn't watch tonight did Cesaro continue his program with Big Show?

[Simple Fan]

No him and Neville jobbed to Barrett and Sheamus. Cesaro did most the work and Neville took the pin.

[Heisenberg]

I don't listen to any wrestling podcast at the moment and have given up because I don't see these stories going anywhere nothing is really attractive to me about the product. I do enjoy watching lesnar wrestle but no interested in seeing him fight Big Show for the 30th time or Taker again. He should be destroying Taker, nothing short of that.

I didn't watch tonight did Cesaro continue his program with Big Show?



Don't know, didn't make it far into RAW before I looked at myself and got up from the couch to go do something meaningful with my life. Starting to dread how much WrestleMania is going to suck if they don't turn the ship around

[The CyNick]

Yeah, I'm big on reading the Observer.

Parroting it at least

[The CyNick]

I guess it's great to have painfully low expectations.

Maybe. I enjoy talking to you guys .

[The CyNick]

Also it's perfectly fine that you enjoy the product, it's the fact that you feel the need to attack our stance and opinion and completely generalize that makes you a cast off.

For instance, I'd say Anybody Thrilla as a whole LOVES the product, sure he throws in random jibes at it, but he generally is quite positive. Yet, we don't have these absolutely ridiculous arguments with him. You come off as some kind of robot. You don't really pay attention to what we're actually saying, you just say we read Dave Meltzer. I assure you, 90 per cent of the posters here don't read f4w, nor do they like Dave Meltzer. He's actually a bit irritating.

You got it twisted.

I defend, I don't attack.

I just point out the absurdity of claiming to dislike something yet spend valuable resources on it week after week.

If you go back since I made my triumphant return, I got blasted for saying I feel the product is good. And that most of the problems today lie not with the writing and booking but instead with the talent who are inferior to that of yesteryear.

Also was also vehimantly attacked for my stance of the Daniel Bryan Yes Movement that WWE cultivated.

It doesn't bother me because i enjoy a good debate. But don't pretend like I'm the aggressor.

[Sixx]

http://img.cache.vevo.com/Content/VevoImages/video/E8F0D44D7F0B2C96E7CEFE4ED9B7F5AE.jpg

[Sixx]

http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/612/MI0000612506.jpg?partner=allrovi.com

[Big Vic]

You got it twisted.

I defend, I don't attack.

I just point out the absurdity of claiming to dislike something yet spend valuable resources on it week after week.
I have stopped watching.

If you go back since I made my triumphant return, I got blasted for saying I feel the product is good. And that most of the problems today lie not with the writing and booking but instead with the talent who are inferior to that of yesteryear.
I agree, not many people are good on the Mic at all. I think this comes from many wrestlers just letting the writers write for them.

[Sixx]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bv5vMJKBAbo/hqdefault.jpg

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cynick you are a passive aggressor. Which is worse. Lol how were you attacked? Just because you spew nonsense and cast aspersions and people call you on it does not make you the victim.

[BigCrippyZ]

I have stopped watching.
I agree, not many people are good on the Mic at all. I think this come from many wrestlers just letting the writers write for them.

Same here. I mentioned this in another thread but I rarely watch anymore, like once every 2-3 months and even then I don't watch the whole episode of RAW. I haven't seen anything that has gotten me remotely interested to tune in the following week or even the next PPV/event and I've been a fan for 25+ years, half of that as an adult.

[The CyNick]

Cynick you are a passive aggressor. Which is worse. Lol how were you attacked? Just because you spew nonsense and cast aspersions and people call you on it does not make you the victim.

You said I attack. Which is incorrect.

I'm a victim of having the truth on my side.

[Sixx]

You said I attack. Which is incorrect.

I'm a victim of having the truth on my side.

http://www.papermag.com/uploaded_images/michael-bolton-mullet.xlarge.jpg

[The CyNick]

I have stopped watching.
I agree, not many people are good on the Mic at all. I think this come from many wrestlers just letting the writers write for them.

I agree. Which is why I blame the talent today. A lot fewer guys today seem willing to bring their own ideas to the table.

[XL]

What do you base that assertion on?

[The CyNick]

Well I've heard some guys like Vince and Triple H do interviews where they say guys will receive scripts and say "this sucks" but not have any alternative suggestions.

Then you hear talent talk about how everything is so scripted (usually only when they leave), but then I remember watching an interview with Bray where he basically says only he can write for himself. And since Bray's promos are unique, it makes me think most guys just take what is handed to them.

Whereas all the top stars from the late 90s talk about how they would be given something, and massage it to best fit their character.

Put it this way. I feel like Steve Austin had a better handle on who Stone Cold was than a guy like Cesaro does his own character.

[Sixx]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/bb/ea/13/bbea137e36319f7e34f66421e819d0f3.jpg

[BigCrippyZ]

Well I've heard some guys like Vince and Triple H do interviews where they say guys will receive scripts and say "this sucks" but not have any alternative suggestions.

Then you hear talent talk about how everything is so scripted (usually only when they leave), but then I remember watching an interview with Bray where he basically says only he can write for himself. And since Bray's promos are unique, it makes me think most guys just take what is handed to them.

Whereas all the top stars from the late 90s talk about how they would be given something, and massage it to best fit their character.

Put it this way. I feel like Steve Austin had a better handle on who Stone Cold was than a guy like Cesaro does his own character.

I don't doubt that's true for a lot of the superstars who just want to show up and get a paycheck essentially.

That being said, I think there's also probably quite a few guys who do bring their own ideas to the table but everything has to get approval from Vince. Then, either Vince doesn't like their ideas and shoots them down or changes them so much that they become the shitty product that we see.

On the other hand you could also have a CM Punk scenario where you bring may be bringing him golden ideas but if you're not in the main event, he doesn't care about your story line or character development so he just shoots down your ideas. The result being, whether intentional or not, talent doesn't get to explore or have any freedom creatively to stand out or become bigger stars.

How in the blue hell, exactly, is a guy supposed to grow, develop or step up and "grab the brass ring" in that type of environment?

[The CyNick]

I don't doubt that's true for a lot of the superstars who just want to show up and get a paycheck essentially.

That being said, I think there's also probably quite a few guys who do bring their own ideas to the table but everything has to get approval from Vince. Then, either Vince doesn't like their ideas and shoots them down or changes them so much that they become the shitty product that we see.

On the other hand you could also have a CM Punk scenario where you bring may be bringing him golden ideas but if you're not in the main event, he doesn't care about your story line or character development so he just shoots down your ideas. The result being, whether intentional or not, talent doesn't get to explore or have any freedom creatively to stand out or become bigger stars.

How in the blue hell, exactly, is a guy supposed to grow, develop or step up and "grab the brass ring" in that type of environment?

Yeah but see you're falling into that tap of basically saying Vince doesn't know what is good. He managed to identify the right formula to make tons of stars over his career. The problem is not everyone is good enough to reach the top. He pushed Eddie to the top when nobody thought he would. I don't know how much that character was Vince and how much was Eddie, but he certainly became a larger than life character under Vince's watch.

Punk got to do tons. He was given lots of freedom. He was just a bitch when it was time to step aside for other guys. I think he saw Bryan was gaining steam and didn't like it. So he took his ball and went home so he could pretend to be a real fighter.

I think you're cherry picking stories from guys who are bitter. Why would Vince turn down a million dollar idea? There is this belief among the IWC that Vince hates success, like as though guys are feeding him money angles every night, and he goes "nahhhh let's just do something that is boring and will cost me money". Yet Vince stands to gain or lose more than anyone else in the entire world, so why would he intentionally turn down great ideas?

I'm sure guys have made suggestions that Vince had turned down, but the devil is in the detail. Usually when you hear ex WWE guys talk about angles they suggested, it usually involves them at the top of the card. Maybe Vince no longer sees that guy as a top guy, or maybe he never did. Vince has to make a judgment call on how far he sees a guy going before investing resources in that angle and that star. Heath Slater could come up with a riveting storyline to get him to a Mania main event against Brock Lesnar, but if Vince only sees Heath as a comedy act, why waste time on it?

Is Vince always right? Hell no. Does he have a better track record than anyone else in the world? Yup. So maybe he should get the benefit of the doubt.

[Sixx]

http://cdn.mos.musicradar.com/images/features/pop-guitar-solos/michael-bolton-corbis-630-80.jpg

[Big Vic]

I've heard people have the opportunity to work with the writers on what they want to say. I have thought that some people might be very green so they are given what to say and might not ever grow out of that.

That is speculation though.

It could also be a battle between the wrestler and the writer/vince of what they want to say and they might just get tired of it.

[The CyNick]

I've heard people have the opportunity to work with the writers on what they want to say. I have thought that some people might be very green so they are given what to say and might not ever grow out of that.

That is speculation though.

It could also be a battle between the wrestler and the writer/vince of what they want to say and they might just get tired of it.

I think just the mindset of today's generation is let me just show up and success will be handed to me. More of Austin's generation had the mindset of i need to look out for myself if I want to get ahead.

If you don't think your career is worth fighting for then you will never grab the brass ring.

[The CyNick]

http://cdn.mos.musicradar.com/images/features/pop-guitar-solos/michael-bolton-corbis-630-80.jpg

I laugh every time. Nice job.

[#1-norm-fan]

Well I've heard some guys like Vince and Triple H do interviews where they say guys will receive scripts and say "this sucks" but not have any alternative suggestions.


So when Triple H or Vince do an interview supporting what you want to believe, it's gospel.

When Daniel Bryan does one that goes against what you want to believe, it's time to go into damage control and find a way you can still argue a bullshit point.


SHEEEEEEP

[Sixx]

http://img.cache.vevo.com/Content/VevoImages/video/52C9804011BC170AA4DF01FB412EAE24.jpg

[BigCrippyZ]

Yeah but see you're falling into that tap of basically saying Vince doesn't know what is good. He managed to identify the right formula to make tons of stars over his career. The problem is not everyone is good enough to reach the top. He pushed Eddie to the top when nobody thought he would. I don't know how much that character was Vince and how much was Eddie, but he certainly became a larger than life character under Vince's watch.

Punk got to do tons. He was given lots of freedom. He was just a bitch when it was time to step aside for other guys. I think he saw Bryan was gaining steam and didn't like it. So he took his ball and went home so he could pretend to be a real fighter.

I think you're cherry picking stories from guys who are bitter. Why would Vince turn down a million dollar idea? There is this belief among the IWC that Vince hates success, like as though guys are feeding him money angles every night, and he goes "nahhhh let's just do something that is boring and will cost me money". Yet Vince stands to gain or lose more than anyone else in the entire world, so why would he intentionally turn down great ideas?

I'm sure guys have made suggestions that Vince had turned down, but the devil is in the detail. Usually when you hear ex WWE guys talk about angles they suggested, it usually involves them at the top of the card. Maybe Vince no longer sees that guy as a top guy, or maybe he never did. Vince has to make a judgment call on how far he sees a guy going before investing resources in that angle and that star. Heath Slater could come up with a riveting storyline to get him to a Mania main event against Brock Lesnar, but if Vince only sees Heath as a comedy act, why waste time on it?

Is Vince always right? Hell no. Does he have a better track record than anyone else in the world? Yup. So maybe he should get the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not saying that everyone can be a huge star or success. I'm not saying that Vince wasn't responsible for making huge stars throughout his career or isn't the most successful promoter. I'm also not saying that Vince would intentionally turn down a great million dollar idea in favor of an idea that may or may not cost him money instead. I don't think anyone here is claiming any of those things.

What I am saying is that he's CURRENTLY either out of touch, complacent, afraid to take risks creatively, or some combination of the above. His past success was great. No one's denying that.

What we are complaining about is his CURRENT ability to make FUTURE stars. Absolutely, some of that is very much out of Vince's control and instead is in the talent's hands (drive, work ethic, talent levels, etc.) With that said, all of the talent or drive in the world are useless if you have someone running the show who is out of touch, complacent or afraid to take chances on talent or ideas.

I've been waiting for 5+ years (closer to 10 years) for things to change, and no, I don't mean going back to strictly Attitude era type material. Where do you draw the line? How long do you give Vince & co. to find and develop that next crop of stars or come up with a consistent set of compelling midcard and main event storylines? I've already given up in terms of watching regularly. No more watching RAWs or PPV events regularly for me until I hear of an awesome and consistent turn around.

[Mr. Nerfect]

So when Triple H or Vince do an interview supporting what you want to believe, it's gospel.

When Daniel Bryan does one that goes against what you want to believe, it's time to go into damage control and find a way you can still argue a bullshit point.


SHEEEEEEP

This was my first thought too.

[Mr. Nerfect]

http://img.cache.vevo.com/Content/VevoImages/video/52C9804011BC170AA4DF01FB412EAE24.jpg

Best Bolton of the thread.

[Mr. Nerfect]

As far as talent goes, Vince has gotten real lucky in the past too. A lot of the stuff he gets credit for "creating," he only really fostered.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

You said I attack. Which is incorrect.

I'm a victim of having the truth on my side.

you're a victim of being filled with feces.

[#1-norm-fan]

http://www.mellzah.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/tEwD9Ix.png

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Best Bolton of the thread.

<img style="-webkit-user-select: none;" src="http://splay.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/bolton.jpg" width="1025" height="536">

That's a Flay-a-ling.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Seems to me like new day are yanking quite hard at the brass ring. You could have yourselves a freebirds level group, main event styles pretty much having a group of guys making something out of nothing. That doesn't mean they need to be world champions, it just means you can make them a real feature, a constant threat and a focal point (as they slowly are becoming) if the rug gets pulled out from under them, it could not possibly be their fault

[Damian Rey]

And what's funny is they were initially meant to be pushed as a face team, as confirmed by Kolfi in the table for 3 segment they had.

[The CyNick]

So when Triple H or Vince do an interview supporting what you want to believe, it's gospel.

When Daniel Bryan does one that goes against what you want to believe, it's time to go into damage control and find a way you can still argue a bullshit point.


SHEEEEEEP

HHH and Vince are in charge, they don't need permission to address certain topics.

I don't see how the two comments relate. My statement on Bryan saying that the plans for him changed was that he was towing the company line. The WWE story was that the plans changed through the YES Movement by the fans. Bryan parrots that in interviews.

You gotta check your reading comprehension bud.

[The CyNick]

As far as talent goes, Vince has gotten real lucky in the past too. A lot of the stuff he gets credit for "creating," he only really fostered.

That's his job.

I heard Big Show do an interview where he said Vince is great at noticing little things that make a huge difference. Look at almost every star in the history of the business, and the vast majority became bigger stars with Vince.

[The CyNick]

you're a victim of being filled with feces.

Classy and typical response.

This is what people do when they are outmatched.

[The CyNick]

Seems to me like new day are yanking quite hard at the brass ring. You could have yourselves a freebirds level group, main event styles pretty much having a group of guys making something out of nothing. That doesn't mean they need to be world champions, it just means you can make them a real feature, a constant threat and a focal point (as they slowly are becoming) if the rug gets pulled out from under them, it could not possibly be their fault

We'll see what they do with the push.

It's one thing to be opening card comedy, it's another to be at or near the top. I think now more than ever the ball is in their court. WWE is clearly behind them, clearly wants them to succeed. Now they have to show they can do it. Let's see what happens

[The CyNick]

And what's funny is they were initially meant to be pushed as a face team, as confirmed by Kolfi in the table for 3 segment they had.

They were introduced as faces. Kofi would have no idea if Vince thought they would turn heel. And ultimately, he was right, they are heading down the babyface path.

[Big Vic]

Kofi in an interview from a couple months ago mentioned that he wanted the team to be faces.That's his job.

I heard Big Show do an interview where he said Vince is great at noticing little things that make a huge difference. Look at almost every star in the history of the business, and the vast majority became bigger stars with Vince.
If you disallow peoples interviews who left the company to be factual, you cant allow peoples interviews who are still in the company.

[The CyNick]

If you disallow peoples interviews who left the company to be factual, you cant allow peoples interviews who are still in the company.

Well Chris Jericho was doing the interview and he agreed.

Its my nature to take everything i read or hear with a grain of salt. I think Show and Jericho are both at stages in their career where they are comfortable criticizing if it's warranted. Whereas a guy like Punk is just really bitter when he did his big "shoot".

But you're right, all interviews should be scanned for BS levels.

[The CyNick]

Oh the Kofi thing.

Two totally different issues.

Kofi is commenting on what was in Vince's brain. Show and Jericho were complimenting Vince on a talent that they both witnessed with their own eyes.

[Sixx]

http://i3.cdnds.net/12/33/618x600/rexfeatures_372078p.jpg

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Classy and typical response.

This is what people do when they are outmatched.

lol outmatched? And you're not arrogant? hahahaha. You're good people.

[Sixx]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/2e/7b/f7/2e7bf7218f29ad3ac0f73db05131430d.jpg

[The CyNick]

lol outmatched? And you're not arrogant? hahahaha. You're good people.

Thank you

Isn't it easier to be nice

[Sixx]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/26/f4/a0/26f4a0c48c924ec45b5eb279c32fca5a.jpg

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Thank you

Isn't it easier to be nice

I hardly think telling you that you are full of shit is THAT mean. My dad tells me I'm full of shit all the time.

[Sixx]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/da/fe/11/dafe11fac4c3729e5d2b00b732aff6d3.jpg

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

<img style="-webkit-user-select: none;" src="http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140605115841/gameofthrones/images/4/41/Ramsay-Bolton-Profile.png" width="200" height="252">

That's a Flay-a-ling.

[el bobbo]

Don't tell my heart, my achey breaky heart.

[Sixx]

http://static.idolator.com/uploads/2014/01/06/billy-ray-cyrus.jpg

[#1-norm-fan]

You gotta check your reading comprehension bud.

This is basically the point we're at now...

CyNick: "Seth Rollins losing to John Cena isn't a bad thing."

"No one said it was."

CyNick: "LOL explain to me how losing to the face of the company is a bad thing."

"Damien Sandow was over and has tons of charisma and should be featured somewhere in the show."

"Do you REALLY think he can headline!? Come on!"

"..."

[#1-norm-fan]

Classy and typical response.

This is what people do when they are outmatched.

No, you know what people do when they're outmatched?

This is basically the point we're at now...

CyNick: "Seth Rollins losing to John Cena isn't a bad thing."

"No one said it was."

CyNick: "LOL explain to me how losing to the face of the company is a bad thing."

"Damien Sandow was over and has tons of charisma and should be featured somewhere in the show."

"Do you REALLY think he can headline!? Come on!"

"..."

[The CyNick]

Lots of people on here complain that Seth lost too many times to Cena.

But i guess we should pretend nobody complained about that.

[Sixx]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1347270812_BILLY-RAY-CYRUS.jpg

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

http://mlb.mlb.com/assets/images/3/1/6/142938316/cuts/GettyImages_459763101_1kclbxc5_2iebt51n.jpg

[DAMN iNATOR]

Lots of people on here complain that Seth lost too many times to Cena.

But i guess we should pretend nobody complained about that.

Actually, YOU shouldn't pretend it's not a huge issue for the WWE Champion to get jobbed out to someone else just because that someone else is the cash cow of the company. No matter how you try to spin that, it reflects poorly on the champ.

[#1-norm-fan]

Alright, so DAMN iNATOR says that.

When I say "Losing to Cena isn't the problem" and you come back with an argument explaining that losing to Cena isn't a problem, you're blatantly avoiding the issue and being an annoying dipshit. The fact that I actually mentioned that you've got a habit of doing it and your reply included you doing it again kinda makes you sound like an annoying dipshit with a serious comprehension problem.

[#1-norm-fan]

I mean, it is kinda lame/hilarious that the WWE champion is so far below the US champion that we've gotta say "OF COURSE the WWE champion should lose when facing the US champion. DUH!" But one issue at a time...

A good mullet seems appropriate in this thread right about now.

[Sixx]

http://tasteofcountry.com/files/2012/07/Billy-Ray-Cyrus.jpg

[#1-norm-fan]

The lyrics to "Achy Breaky Heart" make more sense than a CyNick post.

[The CyNick]

The lyrics to "Achy Breaky Heart" make more sense than a CyNick post.

Laptop tough guy over here

[Savio]

Laptop tough guy over hereTPWW Fights Vol 2.

[The CyNick]

Actually, YOU shouldn't pretend it's not a huge issue for the WWE Champion to get jobbed out to someone else just because that someone else is the cash cow of the company. No matter how you try to spin that, it reflects poorly on the champ.

Cena and Rollins are working all over the country. I haven't looked if those matches were for the WWE title or the US title. If its for the WWE Title, it makes perfect sense to put Cena over on TV to make people think he will win the title in their town.

If its for the US title, it makes less sense. But it could be leading to a future WWE Title match either on TV or PPV. With heel "authority figures" on TV, Cena would need some iron clad evidence why he should be #1 contender. Either that match you have Rollins go over, and then all the JOBs to Cena get forgotten, OR Cena wins and remains strong. Either way it makes sense.

Random loses to other guys make less sense I'll give you that. But it just depends on the context of the match. Thats why I brought up some of those dumb loses HHH had. If Rollins gets pinned by Bubba Ray Dudley, but its a result of Kane running in with a Chokeslam or its a 2 on 1 match, then it does no harm to Rollins. If he loses clean as a sheet to these guys over and over, yeah thats not the best thing in the world. But its all about understanding the larger storyline. The broad strokes remain to be Rollins continues to keep the WWE Title, he wins the BIG match.

[The CyNick]

I mean, it is kinda lame/hilarious that the WWE champion is so far below the US champion that we've gotta say "OF COURSE the WWE champion should lose when facing the US champion. DUH!" But one issue at a time...

A good mullet seems appropriate in this thread right about now.

Nobody ever said the WWE champ should lose to the US champ.

But when the US champ happens to be the top babyface in the territory, its fine. If you dont get that, you dont understand the importance of the top babyface in the territory.

Its funny to me because people should be happy that WWE has put a TON of effort in making that US title mean something. That used to a big criticism of the IWC "WWE is shit, the secondary titles dont mean as much as they did 'back in the day'". So now its a really big deal, people still complain.

Ya'll just like to complain.

[The CyNick]

TPWW Fights Vol 2.

I dont know what that is, but I've the kid enough of a rub as it is.

In fact, I've breathed life into this whole place since I've been back. There should be a thread where people can come in and pay their respects. Probably wont happen though.

[Rammsteinmad]

Fuck me this thread will still be going on by the end of December.

[#1-norm-fan]

TPWW Fights Vol 2.

Everyone wants to take down "Mr. 1-0". I should have expected this.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

<img style="-webkit-user-select: none;" src="http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100525063060/prowrestling/images/thumb/d/da/Don_Callis.jpg/200px-Don_Callis.jpg" width="200" height="232">

There is only one Cyrus allowed in this Forum!!!!!!

[DAMN iNATOR]

That's a wise choice, STD. :y:

[Sixx]

http://cdn7.whiskeyriff.com/wp-content/uploads/Billy-Ray-Cyrus-12-Alan-Mayor-x365.jpg

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

GORE! GORE! GORE!

[Damian Rey]

http://www.sugarslam.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Shawn_display_image.jpg

Just gonna leave this here.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

https://images.rapgenius.com/91be0ce47789e26f7a43549da2e12091.590x383x1.jpg

[Big Vic]

Nobody ever said the WWE champ should lose to the US champ.

But when the US champ happens to be the top babyface in the territory, its fine. If you dont get that, you dont understand the importance of the top babyface in the territory.

Its funny to me because people should be happy that WWE has put a TON of effort in making that US title mean something. That used to a big criticism of the IWC "WWE is shit, the secondary titles dont mean as much as they did 'back in the day'". So now its a really big deal, people still complain.

Ya'll just like to complain.I think people are happy the US title has value again. But there have been a lot of unncessary matches between Cena and Rollins for no reason. They shouldn't have went up against each other at MSG.

[Heisenberg]

how bout you wake up now.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRqedLiWoAAr3Hn.jpg

THE GREAT KHALI HAS SIGNED A MULTIYEAR CONTRACT WITH TNA IMPACT WRESTLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sixx]

Make him the X Division Champion.

I mean

http://www.omca.biz/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/achybreaky.jpg

[DAMN iNATOR]

how bout you wake up now.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRqedLiWoAAr3Hn.jpg

THE GREAT KHALI HAS SIGNED A MULTIYEAR CONTRACT WITH TNA IMPACT WRESTLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aww who are we even fucking kidding anymore? It's multi-month at best.

[Sixx]

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/ip_194247-e1369937424564.jpg

[Big Vic]

how bout you wake up now.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRqedLiWoAAr3Hn.jpg

THE GREAT KHALI HAS SIGNED A MULTIYEAR CONTRACT WITH TNA IMPACT WRESTLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:eek: TNA is back, BABY!

[Heisenberg]

never thoughtKhaliwould be so clutch right now

[The CyNick]

I think people are happy the US title has value again. But there have been a lot of unncessary matches between Cena and Rollins for no reason. They shouldn't have went up against each other at MSG.

Meh. I thought that was a great match. Didn't hurt Seth to lose that one. Plus it's not like it was on RAW. Viewership on the Network is going to be much lower than RAW.

[SNLfunnyguy]

Remember that one December when they just put all their top guys in the Cell? Even if thy tried that today, it would mean nothing.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Remember that one December when they just put all their top guys in the Cell? Even if thy tried that today, it would mean nothing.

Yep, Armageddon 2000.

[The CyNick]

Remember that one December when they just put all their top guys in the Cell? Even if thy tried that today, it would mean nothing.

How did that show draw compared to other shows in the months prior and following?

[DAMN iNATOR]

How did that show draw compared to other shows in the months prior and following?

Fucking hell, talk about a trap question. It was sandwiched right between Survivor Series and the 2001 Royal Rumble event. Of COURSE it's not going to draw as well.

[The CyNick]

Fucking hell, talk about a trap question. It was sandwiched right between Survivor Series and the 2001 Royal Rumble event. Of COURSE it's not going to draw as well.

Lol. Because WWE never had successful back to back shows back then?

Don't be sad that you're point was disproven

[DAMN iNATOR]

No, because you're comparing a minor PPV which is/was held in a timeframe between 2 of the "Big 4" WWE PPVs.

You knew that's what I was saying, but nope, you had to try and slip the wool over everybody's eyes plsying the "GOTCHA!" card because you know you're comparing apples to oranges.

[The CyNick]

No, because you're comparing a minor PPV which is/was held in a timeframe between 2 of the "Big 4" WWE PPVs.

You knew that's what I was saying, but nope, you had to try and slip the wool over everybody's eyes plsying the "GOTCHA!" card because you know you're comparing apples to oranges.

Fair enough.

Then how did it do compared to nearby B shows. Say Sept, Oct, Feb 2001. That would give a better indication of how successful that match was.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Here's an idea: DON'T BOOK YOUR TOP BABYFACE TO BE THE SECONDARY CHAMPION OR AGAINST THE HEEL CHAMPION YOU ARE TRYING TO BUILD!!!!

By Alexa Bliss' divine light, this is stupid.

[The CyNick]

Here's an idea: DON'T BOOK YOUR TOP BABYFACE TO BE THE SECONDARY CHAMPION OR AGAINST THE HEEL CHAMPION YOU ARE TRYING TO BUILD!!!!

By Alexa Bliss' divine light, this is stupid.

They did both though.

At the end of the day Rollins as a heel can proclaim he beat John Cena and was the first US/Heavyweight champ. A good heel would ignore that he lost a bunch of times to Cena right after.

A good top babyface rarely loses and when he does its because he got screwed. Cena did that with Rollins. And on top of that by being US champ, he has made that championship mean more.

Seems like a win win.

[Mr. Nerfect]

But it's not a win-win, CyNick. It's not a win-win at all.

[Sixx]

http://www.grammy.com/files/styles/news_photos/public/news/cyrus_3.jpg?itok=cYtAF9QJ

[The CyNick]

But it's not a win-win, CyNick. It's not a win-win at all.

Seems like it is. Rollins had a nice list of guys he beat, he's kept the title for 7 months plus, and continues to look stronger by the day.

Cena has single handedly moved the US title up to a main event calibre title, which had never happened in WWE.

When you take off the negative glasses you wear, it's win win.

[Big Vic]

Says the man with rose colored glasses.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Rollins also has a nice list of guys who have beaten him. Does your champion need to look stronger by the day? I ask, because I think champions should look strong from the start.

[Big Vic]

About a year ago Rollins was the same weasel type heel but he was winning his matches.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Savior, just post mullets. It's easier.

[The CyNick]

Rollins also has a nice list of guys who have beaten him. Does your champion need to look stronger by the day? I ask, because I think champions should look strong from the start.

We've already hashed this out. Rollins shouldn't look too strong from jump otherwise he goes baby too quickly. Notice how his presentation changed from being a chicken to welcoming the next challenger. Likely the start of a babyface turn.

Classic, smart, long term booking.

But go ahead focus on the Viscera/mideon casket match.

[The CyNick]

About a year ago Rollins was the same weasel type heel but he was winning his matches.

Beat Cena, Sting, and Kane

[Big Vic]

Lost to Cena, Sting, Kane, Ambrose, Ryback.

We've already hashed this out. Rollins shouldn't look too strong from jump otherwise he goes baby too quickly. So when Does Braun Strowman start getting baby face reactions?

[The CyNick]

Lost to Cena, Sting, Kane, Ambrose, Ryback.

So when Does Braun Strowman start getting baby face reactions?

Soon if he dominates guys.

Difference with him is he doesn't really have main event matches against to guys. He's just being protected primarily in tags.

[Damian Rey]

Don't you guys remember all the face pops Triple H got during his runs at the early turn of the century?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

http://mlb.mlb.com/assets/images/7/6/0/74817760/AP97010106649_oakvm2eu.jpg

[Mr. Nerfect]

We've already hashed this out. Rollins shouldn't look too strong from jump otherwise he goes baby too quickly. Notice how his presentation changed from being a chicken to welcoming the next challenger. Likely the start of a babyface turn.

Classic, smart, long term booming.

But go ahead focus on the Viscera/mideon casket match.

Hahahaha, what?

[Big Vic]

Rusev was getting huge babyface pops last year guys.

[Sixx]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/451781068983513088/mnmz0O7D.jpeg

[The CyNick]

Rusev was getting huge babyface pops last year guys.

Foreign heel is different

[Big Vic]

Shield were undefeated for quite a long time and still got boos.

[The CyNick]

Shield were undefeated for quite a long time and still got boos.

I recall them getting cheers as well. Fans turned then babyface basically.

[The CyNick]

Don't you guys remember all the face pops Triple H got during his runs at the early turn of the century?

He did actually. You must not have been to many shows back then.

[Big Vic]

I recall them getting cheers as well. Fans turned then babyface basically.
Really I don't remember much people cheering when they were triple power bombing Daniel Bryan, or threatening Dusty Rhodes.

In fact the crowd was quite pro 'Rhodes bros' in their tag team match.

[The CyNick]

Really I don't remember much people cheering when they were triple power bombing Daniel Bryan, or threatening Dusty Rhodes.

In fact the crowd was quite pro 'Rhodes bros' in their tag team match.

That's pretty selective

[Big Vic]

I'm not going to go through their whole 2.5 year run

[The CyNick]

I'm not going to go through their whole 2.5 year run

Nor am I. I rely on memory.

[NormanSmiley]

What I am saying is that he's CURRENTLY either out of touch, complacent, afraid to take risks creatively, or some combination of the above. His past success was great. No one's denying that.




why wouldn't he be complacent? there is no competition. and it's not dirtsheet nonsense or rumor or anything to say we have all known vince wants to be entertainment over wrestling and right now his big dreams are coming true. Vince has made wrestling a secondary focus of his entertainment company. we are all dreaming if we think the big focus of the company is to push for a product old school fans, or internet fans really want

[NormanSmiley]

I think you're mixing things up.

Wrestling is and always has been a pretty basic level form of storytelling and character developmental. Even the greatest angles in the history of the business were not exactly Emmy Award winning pieces of writing. Was Vince ending up as the Higher Power more compelling than the stuff today?

I personally think the storytelling is no different today than it was 15 years ago. Triple H and Steph are the new Mr McMahon. You have the same cheesy love triangle storylines (Mero-Sable is Rusev-Lana). You have the cowardly heel champion gifted the belt (Rock was in the same spot Rollins is today). And most of those storylines have been staples in all wrestling territories.

There are several differences that cause people to percieve the current product as being not as good and the IWC faithful like to blame creative because it's the easy thing to do. When they should look closer at external factors.

First, the talent just isn't as good. In the ring, generally speaking each generation gets better in the ring. As athletes evolve they are able to do more things. If Kofi Kingston came along in 1990, he would stand out, today he's just another guy.

But the other aspects of being a sports entertainer are lost on a lot of guys. I think a lot of it has to do with the millennial generation. I think they expect creative to cultivate every aspect of their character and tell them what to say. In reality they should take ownership of the character they are given and contribute to the creative process so their character comes off more genuine. If you listen to the guys who made the serious money in this business they all talk about taking charge of their own characters. More guys should take that advice and run with it. Don't sit back and wait on the bench for your name to be called. Leave no doubt that you should be a star and if you are skilled, you will be one. Daniel Bryan is a great example of this and unfortunately he's rare in todays crop of talent. He proved he belonged at the top, and creative cultivated that.

The other problem is people remember the Attitude era fondly but in reality it was scumbag level TV. I was in my late teens during that era so it seemed cool, but looking back I would never want children exposed to the filth that was being presented on a weekly basis. At the time it was okay for WWE to present such a product because they were a solely owned company that was seen as renegade.

It wasn't a sustainable business model for the worldwide publicly traded entertainment conglomerate that the company has flourished into. Advertisers wanted no part of them, they were getting crucified in the media, nobody wanted to be associated with them. Now they are a much more mature brand, and you see the benefits of some of the cross promotional efforts that exist today. It's a product you are not afraid to watch with your children and grandparents alike. On top of that and more importantly is fiscally healthier.

The last thing is the violence. I think people have this fond memory of the late 90s because every other night you had someone risking life and limb or spilling blood to pop a rating. As a lifelong fan, i'm happier with the current toned down product. Hopefully fewer guys have concussion issues and crippling neck injuries. I can do without the off the ladder spear every month. I'd rather watch Xavier Woods play the trombone.

Once i stopped reading the sheets, I enjoyed wrestling for the same whackiness that got me hooked on it in the first place. If i find myself not enjoying a show i will stop watching. For example, I hated this past season of House of Cards. My reaction isn't to subscribe to Mave Deltzers newsletter to find out which writer had the most power last season, i'm just going to stop watching. Life is too short to waste time. If you enjoy, watch. If not, go check out anything on TLC and let me know how WWE writing stacks up.


everything about this is accurate and you guys can't see it because you still believe you should be the demographic focus because you have been fans for so long. we aren't the demographic and the extreme days and all the crash tv stuff is dead, it isn't coming back, nor should it.

You guys clamoring for someone that you have a crush on to get elevated are the same guys who shit on a superstar once he's in the spotlight. IWC are hands down the most fickle group to ever exist and that is why you can't have nice things.

there are stars and they will always shine through. I would love for the company to push the guys i like most, I'd love less Cena, i want managers brought back, i want cole put out to pasture, i want superstars back on saturday mornings to watch squash matches, etc, but if you don't like the product it's because they aren't catering to you anymore and you feel like youare more important than the masses. or you don't understand corporations, or you are so stupid you actually believe wretlemania 32 is booked the night after wrestlemania 31 and there are never more than one option in place.

[BigCrippyZ]

why wouldn't he be complacent? there is no competition. and it's not dirtsheet nonsense or rumor or anything to say we have all known vince wants to be entertainment over wrestling and right now his big dreams are coming true. Vince has made wrestling a secondary focus of his entertainment company. we are all dreaming if we think the big focus of the company is to push for a product old school fans, or internet fans really want

No doubt that he's always wanted it to be entertainment over wrestling. I don't think you can say though, that the Attitude Era was still a "wrestling" show. I think the Attitude era was no doubt an entertainment program with a secondary or maybe even tertiary wrestling element, no differently than today.

My point was that, even if he has no competition, complacency or fear of taking even calculated risks are never good things from a leadership perspective, especially for a company.

And for the record, I have stopped watching. The only thing I've heard about recently that has remotely gotten me intrigued in the current product to check out is the Lesnar/Taker Cell match from this past weekend. Curious to see how violent it really got. Maybe I'll check it out this weekend on the Network. Could care less about any of the other matches or characters though because WWE's given me nothing to be invested in nor a reason to.

[NormanSmiley]

i can totally understand someone switching off and not watching. it's suffered from what i think was the one good part of the attitude era, mid card writing. giving guys who aren't in the main event picture a program to work. That there is the major fault i find with today's product. guys are floundering because of that.

i love the network more than watching raw which is dvr'd and after the first segment i can place what will happen then fast forward

[Big Vic]

Nor am I. I rely on memory.
Well, your memory is off.

[BigCrippyZ]

i can totally understand someone switching off and not watching. it's suffered from what i think was the one good part of the attitude era, mid card writing. giving guys who aren't in the main event picture a program to work. That there is the major fault i find with today's product. guys are floundering because of that.

i love the network more than watching raw

Agree completely. I've stopped watching live or even DVRing RAW anymore.

[NormanSmiley]

i fell off once in my fan life, after wrestlemania 9 i had enough and didnt watch again til the lead up til mania 12

[Big Vic]

I stopped watching in 06 and didn't regularly tune back in until I heard of Brocks return. Although before that I did tune in for the Nexus angle until a bit after Mania.

[The CyNick]

Well, your memory is off.

Agree to disagree

[The CyNick]

i fell off once in my fan life, after wrestlemania 9 i had enough and didnt watch again til the lead up til mania 12

I watched less as I got into UFC, but now I find RAW to be far more entertaining.

[Big Vic]

Agree to disagree
No, you're wrong.

[Innovator]

THE PTA IS DISBANDING

[Emperor Smeat]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-24-2015/DanbTX.gif