Wake me up when december ends [Archive]

Big Vic

09-23-2015, 10:00 AM

The only thing remotely interesting right now in WWE is Brock Lesnar. Seth Rollins is constantly losing and he is the WWE champ He lost 3 out of 4 times to the US champ. The people are behind Cesaro and he is losing to the Big Show who no one cares about. Rusev and Ziggler are trading wins which is putting nobody over. No one in the midcard is ever getting over. Kevin Owens is ok but should be in a higher spot. Shield vs Wyatts is ok. New Day Rocks, but I’ll just watch their antics on youtube.
Think I’ll just watch MNF until the rumble picks up.

Mr. Nerfect

09-23-2015, 10:55 AM

I too find it hard to get enthused about the current product. Very few guys getting hot and put into programs that matter. They've actually managed to turn Dolph Ziggler -- a usual highlight for many fans -- into the low point of the show every week.

Got no fucking clue what they are trying to do with Cesaro. I understand the idea of putting Big Show over en route to a big showing with Brock Lesnar, but that match is drawing on the sole principle of it being Brock Lesnar. If Cesaro had found a way to beat Big Show, it creates this sense in the average fan's mind of Lesnar vs. Cesaro being a match they want to see -- something that was also placed there with Cesaro's alignment with Paul Heyman after WrestleMania XXX. Regardless of whether or not they go with the guy or not, it doesn't hurt to have those fan associations as you build to future Lesnar appearances -- especially with nothing really sticking out for Lesnar as far as WrestleMania programs go.

But right now, I actually think one of the best things they could do with Cesaro is put him against The Miz. Seriously. The personality of The Miz is enough to carry the presentation of that program, and the matches aren't going to be the worst thing ever. People would go nuts for Cesaro uppercutting the crap out of Miz at Madison Square Garden after Miz talks about being from a real city like Los Angeles. Use the Daniel Bryan/Miz program that they used in 2010 as a template -- "Where is your personality? I'm a real Superstar" -- which actually benefited Miz in the short-term too.

I want some proper heels in the tag division too. Right now it's New Day against whichever face team they have the spotlight on at the moment. They're entertaining, but not in a way that you hate them as heels. This isn't going to change wrestling or anything, but how about going somewhere with this Los Matadores heel turn thing and have them break on the characters, talk about how they are former champions, and The Crown Princes of Puerto Rico. Maybe they can fuck over The Dudleys, as I feel those teams would have a good dynamic.

Mr. Nerfect

09-23-2015, 10:56 AM

I'm kind of intrigued by Charlotte vs. Paige, but there are too many extraneous characters floating around that program that they need to address. Becky Lynch is just there, The Bellas aren't going to disappear, Natalya has just shown up and there's the entirety of Team BAD looming over it all.

Mr. Nerfect

09-23-2015, 11:01 AM

Sheamus isn't the guy to be holding the Money in the Bank briefcase either. It just doesn't seem...impending. Bray Wyatt would have been a great choice, because his character lends itself to being a dark shadow over the landscape of WWE, and the idea of Wyatt screwing Reigns out of another title shot was the impetus of their feud anyway. Wouldn't it have worked out to have that title shot still present in the program?

I feel the show lacks someone that is truly over. There seems to be concern over his medical status, but Daniel Bryan seems to be medically cleared. I don't want the guy to be in any sort of dangerous position, but isn't the idea of professional wrestling at all a dangerous position? The WWE's reluctance to bring him back into the fold seems...odd.

Mr. Nerfect

09-23-2015, 11:05 AM

Heel Chris Jericho would make everything in wrestling all right again.

Mr. Nerfect

09-23-2015, 11:07 AM

Heel Chris Jericho vs. Face Dean Ambrose over the IC Title would be a crazy good program.

Innovator

09-23-2015, 11:08 AM

Sheamus is colder than cold. Ice cold.

Innovator

09-23-2015, 11:08 AM

I can honestly see WWE holding Bryan off until the night after the Rumble, just so it won't get hijacked again.

Evil Vito

09-23-2015, 11:11 AM

It's just so hard for me to care. I have Raw on every week but it typically ends up being little more than background noise for me while I screw around on TPWW.

As far as match quality is concerned, it's about as good as it's ever been. Every single Raw has a few good matches, sometimes even great ones. But it never feel like the story moves anywhere or nothing of consequence ever happens. Okay, so the face triumphed over the heel in a great match. Great. Where will it go from there?

Usually in WWE land, they'll just wrestle again on SmackDown or the next week on Raw and the needle won't move on the story one bit. Hell SmackDown in general is just matches with no purpose, with every good match getting repeated on Raw anyway. The matches barely matter at all at this point, which is a shame because a lot of guys are busting their asses for such a boring product.

Innovator

09-23-2015, 11:42 AM

I really don't get why they need to put Cena over Rollins 3/4 times cleanly when Rollins is the one with the World Title.

XL

09-23-2015, 11:56 AM

I'm trying to think of a recent match result that has elevated anyone. Is that even possible now?

Will they go back to Cena vs. Owens now that both have belts? Or will Owens start a similar deal as the U.S. Open where he constantly brings in scrubs to beat until someone steps in? I'm thinking Zayn if he's fit or a way to debut Balor or Joe. Or will we get more from Ryback/Owens? Does anybody even want that?

Simple Fan

09-23-2015, 12:03 PM

Yea it seems WWE is in filler mode right now with their story lines. Everyone knows they are building towards HHH vs Rollins but it taking to long. I don't know if they are saving it for WM or what but the longer it takes the weaker Rollins is going to look. I'm all for a heel champion that cheats to win but the dude loses to much and I feel like the WWE title is lower tier than the US title. Kane? I understand it and all but everyone knows Kane won't win and it takes the fun out of the match. Just wish they would kick start the Rollins /HHH feud already. And I would like to see Sheamus cash in unsuccessfully, in a really stupid way so he can look and be stupid together.

Innovator

09-23-2015, 12:12 PM

Heels are supposed to cheat. Flair always begged off during matches, but only to sucker you in and/or forearm to the balls. They're supposed to be able to win on their own, but they take the easier way and bend/break rules.

Innovator

09-23-2015, 12:13 PM

Cowboy Inno Watts. Fuck the top rope.

XL

09-23-2015, 12:15 PM

I don't think they're taking too long with it, it's good not to rush it. The problem is Kane in a World Title programme. Every champion seems to feud with Kane at some point and it's always boring. I was digging the idea that Corporate Kane and Demon Kane were two separate entities within Kane, now they've made it clear that CK knows what's going down I'm less of a fan.

Really no idea why they're running Show vs. Lesnar. We've seen it before, more than once, and it means they simply have to heat BS up at the expense of other talent just to feed Lesnar, who at this point doesn't need this win. I'm pleased that Taker/Lesnar won't make it to Mania. Or will it?

XL

09-23-2015, 12:17 PM

I think there's more harm being done in the way they deal with Rollins outside of the ring. The way the Authority treat him undermines his status as "The Guy"/World Champion. But, I've had my fill of Cena/Rollins.

Big Vic

09-23-2015, 12:42 PM

Really no idea why they're running Show vs. Lesnar. We've seen it before, more than once, and it means they simply have to heat BS up at the expense of other talent just to feed Lesnar, who at this point doesn't need this win. I'm pleased that Taker/Lesnar won't make it to Mania. Or will it?
They literally took the most interesting guy in the company and paired him with the least interesting guy.

They still have Chris Jericho, why not make that the Main event at the MSG show, they have never squared off before.

Emperor Smeat

09-23-2015, 01:26 PM

I really don't get why they need to put Cena over Rollins 3/4 times cleanly when Rollins is the one with the World Title.

Probably the same reason as with Kevin Owens. The WWE legit fears Cena's merch sales ever dropping and panics if he's seen as weak to the kids.

They would rather keep his status artificially inflated than use him to legit build new stars for the long run or future.

Big Vic

09-23-2015, 01:33 PM

I remember in an old WCW vs WWF DVD they criticized WCW for not letting any stars to move up as a top player except Goldberg. Kinda feel like WWE is doing the same thing now.

Damian Rey

09-23-2015, 02:05 PM

A lot of the bullshit they harp on Wcw for is exactly what they've done throughout their history. The poaching of talent and refusal to legit elevate any young talent being the two most obvious pot calling the kettle black rants.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 02:10 PM

It's sometimes hard to see the bigger picture. This is clearly evident by this thread.

I would say 90% off current booking is spot on to get where they need to go.

Its funny to me to read someone criticize the booking of an angle and then go on to explain the reasoning for the booking in the same post.

I'll start with Rollins. Rollins won the title in the most undeserving way possible. He cashed in MITB and didn't even pin the champ. I would guess the medium range plan is a rematch with Cena fir the WWE title. Rollins is the heel still, so a logical way to build up intetest is to have the babyface win non title (or in this case US title matches) to build up the excitment for the babyface overcoming the dastardly heel champ. Kane is just there as a time filler. It's always been done in WWE. They have tentpole shows that they spend extra time building towards.

Second, and this is my favorite lack of comprehension - Big Show vs Cesaro. The big match they are CURRENTLY promoting is Show vs Lesnar on a NETWORK SPECIAL. In case you guys didn't know, those NETWORK SPECIALS are important because they help drive additional NETWORK SUBSCRIBERS. How many guys on the roster can you put against Brock that would make you think even for a second that Brock may lose? There's not many. Spoiler alert: Brock is most likely going to win. That heats Brock back up for Taker - which is the most important match to sell this month - again on another NETWORK SPECIAL. It's like the most logical booking of all time.

Now here's where most of you guys miss the boat. Cesaro is gaining popularity. Big Show needed someone to heat him up to get ready for Brock. Sure, you could pick another guy to heat up Show, but Cesaro is someone the people care about, and in the long run this will help Cesaro. If you actually watch the fights, you will see Cesaro gets put over in commentary for putting up a fight and trying crazy strength moves against Big Show. But he keeps coming up short. Once Show is done putting over Lesnar strong, I would bet you will see the tide magically change in the ongoing Cesaro-Big Show issue. Instead of Cesaro just going over Show in 5 minutes and quickly heading nowhere back weeks ago when this started, you get multiple weeks of telling a story of Cesaro overcoming the odds. Terrible terrible booking, amirite?

Cesaro-Lesnar? Amazing idea. But not for anytime soon. Cesaro isn't there yet. Working with vets like Show, learning how to be a sympathetic babyface will help him get there. It's all about timing.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 02:19 PM

I'm trying to think of a recent match result that has elevated anyone. Is that even possible now?

Will they go back to Cena vs. Owens now that both have belts? Or will Owens start a similar deal as the U.S. Open where he constantly brings in scrubs to beat until someone steps in? I'm thinking Zayn if he's fit or a way to debut Balor or Joe. Or will we get more from Ryback/Owens? Does anybody even want that?

I'm guessing Owens is tied to Ryback for a bit. I could see Cesaro-Owens as the medium term plan. I see them as being in similar spots to HHH and Rock in mid 97. They can be guys who feud with each other for years and years.

Big Vic

09-23-2015, 03:02 PM

I'll start with Rollins. Rollins won the title in the most undeserving way possible. He cashed in MITB and didn't even pin the champ. I would guess the medium range plan is a rematch with Cena fir the WWE title. Rollins is the heel still, so a logical way to build up intetest is to have the babyface win non title (or in this case US title matches) to build up the excitment for the babyface overcoming the dastardly heel champ. Kane is just there as a time filler. It's always been done in WWE. They have tentpole shows that they spend extra time building towards.
Why even book a clean finish to the match if Cena/Rollins is not leading to a Cena/Rollins match for the WWE title in the near future? You just make your top belt look shitty.
Second, and this is my favorite lack of comprehension - Big Show vs Cesaro. The big match they are CURRENTLY promoting is Show vs Lesnar on a NETWORK SPECIAL. In case you guys didn't know, those NETWORK SPECIALS are important because they help drive additional NETWORK SUBSCRIBERS. How many guys on the roster can you put against Brock that would make you think even for a second that Brock may lose? There's not many. Spoiler alert: Brock is most likely going to win. That heats Brock back up for Taker - which is the most important match to sell this month - again on another NETWORK SPECIAL. It's like the most logical booking of all time.They should not even be making this match no one cares about Big Show. Having Lesnar face any one else on the roster is more intriguing.

Big Vic

09-23-2015, 03:04 PM

Everyone always says "wait and see". When were they ever right this past decade?

loopydate

09-23-2015, 03:47 PM

Everyone always says "wait and see". When were they ever right this past decade?

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 03:49 PM

I think Cena pinning Rollins multiple times is leading to Cena getting a title shot at Survivor Series (a major event). This Kane thing is there is close the book on the angle that put Kane on the shelf, and to create a scenario where it looks like Rollins is a caged rat, but he fights out and wins. Then he's stronger for Cena, and I am guessing he goes over Cena too. Or this is where he finally loses, but it's close and he looks strong in losing.

Gimme a better fight for Lesnar at MSG. You want someone threatening who Lesnar can look impressive dominating. Good luck.

Yeah Daniel Bryan is an example. Internet was all like oh he isn't seen as a top guy, he's being kept at a certain level, the Wyatt feud is a waste, then you watch the road to Mania 30 unfold and what do you know but Bryan beats HHH, Batista, and Orton in one night. Of course the Internet continues to complain about it. But it was a great example of letting WWE play out their long term vision.

Rammsteinmad

09-23-2015, 04:22 PM

Everyone always says "wait and see". When were they ever right this past decade?

http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/001/640/080/sheamusbryan_crop_north.jpg?w=540&h=359&q=75

http://images.mstarz.com/data/images/full/21673/daniel-bryan-wrestlemania-30.jpg

:wave:

Big Vic

09-23-2015, 04:26 PM

Those were 2 different story lines had the first picture have been Orton cashing in I would have responded with

"WWE had to be dragged kicking and screaming to put Daniel back in the title picture."

Big Vic

09-23-2015, 04:31 PM

Gimme a better fight for Lesnar at MSG. You want someone threatening who Lesnar can look impressive dominating. Good luck. Anyone is more interesting..... Fine Rusev.

Yeah Daniel Bryan is an example. Internet was all like oh he isn't seen as a top guy, he's being kept at a certain level, the Wyatt feud is a waste, then you watch the road to Mania 30 unfold and what do you know but Bryan beats HHH, Batista, and Orton in one night. Of course the Internet continues to complain about it. But it was a great example of letting WWE play out their long term vision.
That was not their long term vision, They wanted Daniel to face Sheamus at WM30

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 04:32 PM

It's sometimes hard to see the bigger picture. This is clearly evident by this thread.

I would say 90% off current booking is spot on to get where they need to go.

Its funny to me to read someone criticize the booking of an angle and then go on to explain the reasoning for the booking in the same post.

I'll start with Rollins. Rollins won the title in the most undeserving way possible. He cashed in MITB and didn't even pin the champ. I would guess the medium range plan is a rematch with Cena fir the WWE title. Rollins is the heel still, so a logical way to build up intetest is to have the babyface win non title (or in this case US title matches) to build up the excitment for the babyface overcoming the dastardly heel champ. Kane is just there as a time filler. It's always been done in WWE. They have tentpole shows that they spend extra time building towards.

Second, and this is my favorite lack of comprehension - Big Show vs Cesaro. The big match they are CURRENTLY promoting is Show vs Lesnar on a NETWORK SPECIAL. In case you guys didn't know, those NETWORK SPECIALS are important because they help drive additional NETWORK SUBSCRIBERS. How many guys on the roster can you put against Brock that would make you think even for a second that Brock may lose? There's not many. Spoiler alert: Brock is most likely going to win. That heats Brock back up for Taker - which is the most important match to sell this month - again on another NETWORK SPECIAL. It's like the most logical booking of all time.

Now here's where most of you guys miss the boat. Cesaro is gaining popularity. Big Show needed someone to heat him up to get ready for Brock. Sure, you could pick another guy to heat up Show, but Cesaro is someone the people care about, and in the long run this will help Cesaro. If you actually watch the fights, you will see Cesaro gets put over in commentary for putting up a fight and trying crazy strength moves against Big Show. But he keeps coming up short. Once Show is done putting over Lesnar strong, I would bet you will see the tide magically change in the ongoing Cesaro-Big Show issue. Instead of Cesaro just going over Show in 5 minutes and quickly heading nowhere back weeks ago when this started, you get multiple weeks of telling a story of Cesaro overcoming the odds. Terrible terrible booking, amirite?

Cesaro-Lesnar? Amazing idea. But not for anytime soon. Cesaro isn't there yet. Working with vets like Show, learning how to be a sympathetic babyface will help him get there. It's all about timing.

I think you are WWE's number one apologist. there's a reason their product is so lacklustre and it's not cuz of good booking and good t.v.

Rammsteinmad

09-23-2015, 04:33 PM

Those were 2 different story lines had the first picture have been Orton cashing in I would have responded with

"WWE had to be dragged kicking and screaming to put Daniel back in the title picture."

You never specified that they had to be the same storylines.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 04:36 PM

Vic - Rusev? The guy who has been in a joke program with Lana is going to step up and be a legit threat to Lesnar. I don't see it.

Who told you the plan was Bryan v Sheamus? Vince? Paul? Steph? Maybe you should check your sources.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 04:40 PM

Those were 2 different story lines had the first picture have been Orton cashing in I would have responded with

"WWE had to be dragged kicking and screaming to put Daniel back in the title picture."

Haha. Oh man. I love how you buy into the dirt sheet writer BS.

Yeah WWE accidentally built all their storylines to come together at the biggest show of the year with Bryan overcoming huge odds.

XL

09-23-2015, 04:45 PM

I'm guessing Owens is tied to Ryback for a bit. I could see Cesaro-Owens as the medium term plan. I see them as being in similar spots to HHH and Rock in mid 97. They can be guys who feud with each other for years and years.
I see. Like the never-ending Orton/Sheamus programme that everybody raved about!

I think Cena pinning Rollins multiple times is leading to Cena getting a title shot at Survivor Series (a major event). This Kane thing is there is close the book on the angle that put Kane on the shelf, and to create a scenario where it looks like Rollins is a caged rat, but he fights out and wins. Then he's stronger for Cena, and I am guessing he goes over Cena too. Or this is where he finally loses, but it's close and he looks strong in losing.

Gimme a better fight for Lesnar at MSG. You want someone threatening who Lesnar can look impressive dominating. Good luck.

Yeah Daniel Bryan is an example. Internet was all like oh he isn't seen as a top guy, he's being kept at a certain level, the Wyatt feud is a waste, then you watch the road to Mania 30 unfold and what do you know but Bryan beats HHH, Batista, and Orton in one night. Of course the Internet continues to complain about it. But it was a great example of letting WWE play out their long term vision.

So, we have to tread water for a couple of months with programmes that don't hold any interest for the sake of a match that we've already had 3 times in the last month? Yes that's "long-term booking" but it's boring before we get there, and we've already been to the destination 3 times recently.

Also, I think it's pretty much accepted that they weren't building to Bryan winning the World Title at Mania. Doesn't he say as much himself in a WWE produced interview?

Or is "we had Bryan lined up to face Sheamus until Punk walked and Batista failed to get over as a face and we had to scramble to put something together" part of the story?

XL

09-23-2015, 04:49 PM

Haha. Oh man. I love how you buy into the dirt sheet writer BS.

Yeah WWE accidentally built all their storylines to come together at the biggest show of the year with Bryan overcoming huge odds.

Haha. Oh man. I love how you buy into the company line BS.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 04:51 PM

I see. Like the never-ending Orton/Sheamus programme that everybody raved about!

So, we have to tread water for a couple of months with programmes that don't hold any interest for the sake of a match that we've already had 3 times in the last month? Yes that's "long-term booking" but it's boring before we get there, and we've already been to the destination 3 times recently.

Also, I think it's pretty much accepted that they weren't building to Bryan winning the World Title at Mania. Doesn't he say as much himself in a WWE produced interview?

Or is "we had Bryan lined up to face Sheamus until Punk walked and Batista failed to get over as a face and we had to scramble to put something together" part of the story?

I think a lot of ideas were up in the air, but if you watch the TV in the months leading to Mania, the central storyline was HHH driving it home that Bryan was above average but not good enough to be champion. The logical conclusion to that would be Bryan overcoming the odds.

But i guess some guy in catering told one of the dirt sheet writers it was all leading to Sheamus vs Bryan, and that's what we'll believe to be true. But ya know, plans change, just in case we got the story completely wrong.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 04:52 PM

Haha. Oh man. I love how you buy into the dirt sheet writer BS.

Yeah WWE accidentally built all their storylines to come together at the biggest show of the year with Bryan overcoming huge odds.

Well considering he got jobbed in the opener and wasn't even in the rumble it's not exactly a huge stretch. Pretty sure they've so much as admitted it wasn't i the cards, and I've heard Bautista confirm it I'm quite sure.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 04:53 PM

Haha. Oh man. I love how you buy into the company line BS.

The company didn't tell me anything. I'm going by what ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

you're believing tabloid level "journalists" who thrive on making up BS to sell subscriptions.

XL

09-23-2015, 04:55 PM

I understand what you're saying Cynick, regarding having to present short/mid/long term storylines but do you seriously believe that they plan that far ahead? When everything points to the contrary?

But more importantly, you can't sit there and basically tell people that they should enjoy the short term crap in the hope that the long term stuff will be good. How much "good will" can a company/product/TV build up before they pay it off? There's not many TV shows that ask you to sit through 40-120 bours of TV before you get a decent pay-off/progression.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 04:55 PM

Well considering he got jobbed in the opener and wasn't even in the rumble it's not exactly a huge stretch. Pretty sure they've so much as admitted it wasn't i the cards, and I've heard Bautista confirm it I'm quite sure.

He jobbed when now?

Confirm what exactly? The TV storyline that it was originally Bats vs Orton? That's called kayfabe.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 04:59 PM

Well considering Dave Meltzer is friendly with most wrestlers and they all seem to like and trust him, I generally buy his word.

The dirt sheets aren't always right but they're as good as source as any sports writers dishing the scoop. I think you're reaching and you assume that everyone here is a typical internet fan, when in reality this is a pretty god damned well educated (wrestling wise) group of guys who've come up watching around over 20 years. Your take is largely off base, and your arguments are painting you into a corner. If you want to debate, you need to come with better stuff than "LOL U BELIEVE THE DIRT SHEETS" because from what I see, they're mostly going on the absolute fucking dreck they have to watch every Monday Night and are not taking any behind the scenes bullshit into account.

Big Vic

09-23-2015, 05:01 PM

Its been stated by numerous wrestlers that the plan was Batista vs Orton at Mania.

XL

09-23-2015, 05:01 PM

The company didn't tell me anything. I'm going by what ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

you're believing tabloid level "journalists" who thrive on making up BS to sell subscriptions.

I'm going by what Bryan himself said (but of course, it could be a smokescreen)

http://www.newsday.com/sports/pro-wrestling/daniel-bryan-wwe-superstar-thought-neck-injury-might-end-his-career-1.9811542

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 05:03 PM

He jobbed when now?

Confirm what exactly? The TV storyline that it was originally Bats vs Orton? That's called kayfabe.

You are actually talking complete bullshit. I expect more from you. He jobbed to Bray Wyatt in the opener at the rumble. Bautista won the rumble and expected to face Orton (Bautista face, Orton Heel) at Mania. But the fans took a steaming dump on it because the fed botched Bautista's return, which if you watch the product (not follow the dirt sheets) they quite clearly did. He was getting booed when he was supposed to be a mega face returning after a long absence. Please dispute me on this, and tell me it's all kayfabe, without sounding like a complete blowhard. I dare you.

The product is lacking, there is no true steam behind it, and whenever there is any steam they are very quick to go back to the status quo as fast as possible. In saying that, the in ring product is pretty good, but with no meaning. They are clearly booking week to week, and the business itself is just too big for a guy like Vince to keep up with anymore, but he's the only game in town.

XL

09-23-2015, 05:04 PM

But you're making the discussion about something it's not.

Simply, there are a lot of people that aren't happy with the product (half a million that were watching last year but aren't this week, for example).

Rammsteinmad

09-23-2015, 05:06 PM

Oh look, another thread turned into a CyNick argument.

XL

09-23-2015, 05:10 PM

Yeah, it's a little silly. He's like a black hole (or a car crash).

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 05:16 PM

I'm always a little worried I'm being circular with my arguments but unfortunately he takes the cake. Pretty smart guy, but he's wasting his time trying to make meaningless points.

Emperor Smeat

09-23-2015, 05:27 PM

You are actually talking complete bullshit. I expect more from you. He jobbed to Bray Wyatt in the opener at the rumble. Bautista won the rumble and expected to face Orton (Bautista face, Orton Heel) at Mania. But the fans took a steaming dump on it because the fed botched Bautista's return, which if you watch the product (not follow the dirt sheets) they quite clearly did. He was getting booed when he was supposed to be a mega face returning after a long absence. Please dispute me on this, and tell me it's all kayfabe, without sounding like a complete blowhard. I dare you.

Even Batista was pissed at how badly they botched his return to the point he wants nothing to do with the WWE in the near future. Mostly upset at being made into the scapegoat and having his image ruined a bit because of the WWE's ineptness.

WWE tried to pass it off as the whole thing being planned from the start in a Rolling Stones or Grantland interview but nobody believed it. Got ridiculed by the Observer I think for trying to imply any of what they said was true.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 05:41 PM

His initial bone to pick which I agree with is he didn't get his moment with the fans, instead he had to come down and interrupt some stupid authority promo, just like a "regular" part of the show.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:05 PM

Well considering Dave Meltzer is friendly with most wrestlers and they all seem to like and trust him, I generally buy his word.

The dirt sheets aren't always right but they're as good as source as any sports writers dishing the scoop. I think you're reaching and you assume that everyone here is a typical internet fan, when in reality this is a pretty god damned well educated (wrestling wise) group of guys who've come up watching around over 20 years. Your take is largely off base, and your arguments are painting you into a corner. If you want to debate, you need to come with better stuff than "LOL U BELIEVE THE DIRT SHEETS" because from what I see, they're mostly going on the absolute fucking dreck they have to watch every Monday Night and are not taking any behind the scenes bullshit into account.

His business relies on people like you believing WWE is a garbage fire. That drives more people to his newsletter to read about the "drama backstage". Meanwhile, he never talks to the key players who actually make these changes (Vince, Kevin, Trips, Steph). He picks up bits and pieces from mostly disgruntled workers, who likely have less than 5% of the full picture of what is going on. Then when he's wrong about something, he just goes "plans changed".

The reality is its a successful $1.3B business that continues to grow. But, sure, because you, Meltz, and a few dudes on the internet dont like how Cesaro is being booked, it means the sky is falling. Listen man, I've heard the same song and dance for more than 10 years from that guy. Its all BS. Try watching the product without reading the sheets, and try to tell me its not more enjoyable.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:06 PM

Its been stated by numerous wrestlers that the plan was Batista vs Orton at Mania.

Maybe it was, maybe it wasnt. The inner circle may have had 3 or 4 ideas for potential main events. They ended up getting fully behind Bryan winning the strap.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 06:13 PM

You are inferring a lot from the fact that we read the dirt sheets. First of all I ain't paying for his shitty news letter and I don't listen to his radio show. I pick up bits and pieces of dirt sheet news and the rest I just go with what I see. What I often see is meandering acts and dead crowds, interspersed with some pretty good matches, and a bunch of guys who are trying to remember scripted lines. So I avoid watching very much.

People get upset watching a guy like Cesaro who is incredibly talented have the rug pulled out from under him any time he gains traction. Vince himself claimed he's not too big on Cesaro, yet whenever you give the guy a chance to really work in a good spot, he delivers. That's not Dave Meltzer telling anyone, that's what people see.

ron the dial

09-23-2015, 06:14 PM

those consistently declining ratings sure are a great sign for their product.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 06:15 PM

and those ratings weren't declining when the product was at its best 15 years ago... football season or not.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:16 PM

You are actually talking complete bullshit. I expect more from you. He jobbed to Bray Wyatt in the opener at the rumble. Bautista won the rumble and expected to face Orton (Bautista face, Orton Heel) at Mania. But the fans took a steaming dump on it because the fed botched Bautista's return, which if you watch the product (not follow the dirt sheets) they quite clearly did. He was getting booed when he was supposed to be a mega face returning after a long absence. Please dispute me on this, and tell me it's all kayfabe, without sounding like a complete blowhard. I dare you.

The product is lacking, there is no true steam behind it, and whenever there is any steam they are very quick to go back to the status quo as fast as possible. In saying that, the in ring product is pretty good, but with no meaning. They are clearly booking week to week, and the business itself is just too big for a guy like Vince to keep up with anymore, but he's the only game in town.

WWE didnt both Dave's return, the fans just liked Bryan more, and wrongfully expected Bryan to return in the Rumble match. If WWE was so against Bryan, why keep him in main angles on TV, why not just push him down the card. He was working with HHH and Steph THE ENTIRE road to Mania. Clearly they were going somewhere with him, and clearly he was a central part of the storyline.

So why do you think WWE continues to be so successful if the product is so crap? Ever think maybe you're tastes are not aligned with the product, and you should just stop watching the product? So many people like you complain and complain, and yet you have a pretty vivid memory of every angle and match. Its like you're complaining because you think its the right thing to do. Surely if something annoyed you that much you would quit watching. Or maybe you just prefer being miserable.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:17 PM

But you're making the discussion about something it's not.

Simply, there are a lot of people that aren't happy with the product (half a million that were watching last year but aren't this week, for example).

ratings fluctuate. The business as a whole continues to thrive. Why is that?

ron the dial

09-23-2015, 06:18 PM

the ratings have been on a consisten decline for a decade. that's not a fluctuation. those are just facts.

ron the dial

09-23-2015, 06:19 PM

NO DIRT SHEETS NEEDED

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:21 PM

Even Batista was pissed at how badly they botched his return to the point he wants nothing to do with the WWE in the near future. Mostly upset at being made into the scapegoat and having his image ruined a bit because of the WWE's ineptness.

WWE tried to pass it off as the whole thing being planned from the start in a Rolling Stones or Grantland interview but nobody believed it. Got ridiculed by the Observer I think for trying to imply any of what they said was true.

So you think Grantland and Rolling Stones are less credible than the Observer? Perfect.

You're just picking and choosing who to believe. The reality showed that they had Bryan in the mix for Mania right from the start and followed through with it. Albeit maybe some elements of the overall story changed along the way, but the end game was always put Bryan on top and overcome the doubters and naysayers.

You PREFER to believe some musings of a con man who's whole business is predicated on telling half truths and making crap up to generate interest in his product. Its really hilarious how much you believe in him.

Bad News Gertner

09-23-2015, 06:22 PM

THE SHEETZ!!!!!

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:23 PM

the ratings have been on a consisten decline for a decade. that's not a fluctuation. those are just facts.

So? In your mind, if you dont have ratings at 2005 levels, you cant be financially successful?

How people consume the product today is much different than it was in 1995 and even 2005. Surely you can understand that.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 06:25 PM

WWE didnt both Dave's return, the fans just liked Bryan more, and wrongfully expected Bryan to return in the Rumble match. If WWE was so against Bryan, why keep him in main angles on TV, why not just push him down the card. He was working with HHH and Steph THE ENTIRE road to Mania. Clearly they were going somewhere with him, and clearly he was a central part of the storyline.

So why do you think WWE continues to be so successful if the product is so crap? Ever think maybe you're tastes are not aligned with the product, and you should just stop watching the product? So many people like you complain and complain, and yet you have a pretty vivid memory of every angle and match. Its like you're complaining because you think its the right thing to do. Surely if something annoyed you that much you would quit watching. Or maybe you just prefer being miserable.

I pick and choose what I watch on the internet, and do not contribute to their pay-per-views or raw ratings... largely because I'm a wrestling fan and not a WWE fan. If I see something is good, I make a point to find and watch. If I turn on RAW for 5 minutes, it's usually shit and I turn it off. And I don't prefer being miserable because I watch tons of wrestling still, and enjoy the fuck out of it.... it just happens to be matches from 2 decades ago for the most part which I'm lucky enough with todays technology to be able to watch.

The reason why the WWE is successful is the same reason the Simpsons is successful, resting on their laurels from back when the put forth a superior product, and surviving on being a brand more than a good product. WWE is the only real game in town, and their closest competition is TNA and let's not get into that mess.

Sixx

09-23-2015, 06:25 PM

CyNick - Me Against the World

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 06:27 PM

You PREFER to believe some musings of a con man who's whole business is predicated on telling half truths and making crap up to generate interest in his product. Its really hilarious how much you believe in him.

You just described everyone in the wrestling business. And I think if there's one thing that's clear, it's that people don't necessarily believe Dave Meltzer, he's just a fairly credible source comparitively.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:28 PM

You are inferring a lot from the fact that we read the dirt sheets. First of all I ain't paying for his shitty news letter and I don't listen to his radio show. I pick up bits and pieces of dirt sheet news and the rest I just go with what I see. What I often see is meandering acts and dead crowds, interspersed with some pretty good matches, and a bunch of guys who are trying to remember scripted lines. So I avoid watching very much.

People get upset watching a guy like Cesaro who is incredibly talented have the rug pulled out from under him any time he gains traction. Vince himself claimed he's not too big on Cesaro, yet whenever you give the guy a chance to really work in a good spot, he delivers. That's not Dave Meltzer telling anyone, that's what people see.

So you just parrot what he says. I commend you for saving your money.

Another one of these guys who "rarely watches" but knows every angle that Cesaro has been in. Got it, you rarely watch.

Cesaro is the perfect example of a guy who wasnt ready, and really still isnt to headline. He close, but he's not there yet. He needs to work some programs, learn how to bring a crowd up and down in the course of a match, and then we'll see where we're at with him. He's got a lot of gifts, but Mark Henry is a strong mofo, and was from day, doesn't mean he should be carrying the company.

ron the dial

09-23-2015, 06:34 PM

So? In your mind, if you dont have ratings at 2005 levels, you cant be financially successful?

How people consume the product today is much different than it was in 1995 and even 2005. Surely you can understand that.

i do understand that, but i'm not so sure advertisers or the network care. ratings are ratings.

ron the dial

09-23-2015, 06:35 PM

god you are a patronizing fuck.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:35 PM

You just described everyone in the wrestling business. And I think if there's one thing that's clear, it's that people don't necessarily believe Dave Meltzer, he's just a fairly credible source comparitively.

He's not though.

He's like a rat who gets a crumb, and thinks he knows everything that was on the dinner plate.

If he was really credible, he would have Hunter or Vince on his show, or have quotes from them in his newsletter. But its always "sources say". Its carny shit. And yes, its a carny business, but he's just like everyone in it. Yet people like you think he's talking truth, when in reality he's just pushing an agenda that props up his business model.

Its perfectly logical that WWE would go into a Mania season and have multiple avenues they can go down to get to the same end goal. If Daniel Bryan was so hated by the Vince's of the world, and they really didnt want him to have the ball, why program him with The Authority? You could just put him in an angle with the midget Bull guy, and let the fans chant "YES" for 7 minutes per show and be done with it. OR Hunter could have just beat him clean as a sheet, or at least have Orton or Batista do it. But no, they booked him to go over STRONG on the BIGGEST SHOW OF ALL TIME.

I dont know how you guys can twist that.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:36 PM

i do understand that, but i'm not so sure advertisers or the network care. ratings are ratings.

So did WWE get cancelled or do they keep getting signed to lucrative TV rights fee deals? Maybe I should stop reading the WWE Financial Reports, and just come to you for the health of the business.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:39 PM

His initial bone to pick which I agree with is he didn't get his moment with the fans, instead he had to come down and interrupt some stupid authority promo, just like a "regular" part of the show.

Batista was really screwed over by that run on WWE TV. I remember seeing that movie he was in completely bomb at the box office right after his run. Oh, whats that? It was a financial success, and has launched Batista into the mainstream in Hollywood, and allowed him to get multiple future bookings? Hmmm makes me think he run was actually a success.

XL

09-23-2015, 06:41 PM

You PREFER to believe some musings of a con man who's whole business is predicated on telling half truths and making crap up to generate interest in his product. Its really hilarious how much you believe in him.

Are you talking about Meltzer or McMahon here?

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:41 PM

and those ratings weren't declining when the product was at its best 15 years ago... football season or not.

LOL 15 years ago.

You know how AMAZING it is to be on TV for 15 YEARS?

I love your logic. Its just...words cant even describe.

Sixx

09-23-2015, 06:41 PM

hahaha, you read WWE financial reports?

The fuck is your damage, boy?

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:42 PM

Are you talking about Meltzer or McMahon here?

Vince is a con man too, no doubt, thats the business. Or it was anyway. Now he's a publicly traded, he has to be more up front.

Meltz has no such restraint.

XL

09-23-2015, 06:43 PM

Batista was really screwed over by that run on WWE TV. I remember seeing that movie he was in completely bomb at the box office right after his run. Oh, whats that? It was a financial success, and has launched Batista into the mainstream in Hollywood, and allowed him to get multiple future bookings? Hmmm makes me think he run was actually a success.

His run in WWE had literally nothing to do with the success of Guardia--no, I'm not even gonna bother.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 06:43 PM

hahaha, you read WWE financial reports?

The fuck is your damage, boy?

Yes, I do.

Sixx

09-23-2015, 06:44 PM

Do those include spandex spendings and shit like that?

Evil Vito

09-23-2015, 06:48 PM

I've often wondered if somebody from WWE secretly posts on TPWW. The more I read from The CyNick the more I'm convinced he works there.

Wishbone

09-23-2015, 06:56 PM

I've often wondered if somebody from WWE secretly posts on TPWW. The more I read from The CyNick the more I'm convinced he works there.

One of these days CyNick is gonna reveal himself to have been Vince McMahon all along.

The CyNick

09-23-2015, 07:01 PM

Do those include spandex spendings and shit like that?

Its not a specific line item.

Rammsteinmad

09-23-2015, 07:37 PM

Seriously what the fuck are you all arguing about? Don't know what the fuck happened to this thread. Original poster was right though, fucking product sucks so much right now. You can all bitch about ratings/original plans/Batista's cock all you like. Doesn't change the fact that WWE programming is so boring right now.

Simple Fan

09-23-2015, 08:20 PM

Lol at this thread and Cynick. Dude must be a member of the Vince McMahon kiss my ass club. Anyone that thinks it was the plan for Bryan to main event WM30 from the start is blind. They literally had to pull him out of a feud with Wyatt in which he had just became a member of the Wyatt family.

Damian Rey

09-23-2015, 10:04 PM

I'm still wondering why anyone would pay money to see Cena v Rollins on ppv or the Network when we've gotten it for free pretty much all year. I don't understand the business model behind that.

SlickyTrickyDamon

09-23-2015, 10:27 PM

Without ads and they know they don't show everything they can do on free tv.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-23-2015, 10:57 PM

Cynick is a black hole of brutality, going to have to ignore him from now on.]

Current product is boring. Nuff said

The CyNick

09-24-2015, 08:07 AM

Cynick is a black hole of brutality, going to have to ignore him from now on.]

Current product is boring. Nuff said

Yup. So we'll meet up Monday night to discuss RAW? And every week after that and every PPV? We can make lists about how much this show we watch week in and week out blows. It'll be fun.

Big Vic

09-24-2015, 09:33 AM

I won't be there you guys will have to tell me what happens.He was working with HHH and Steph THE ENTIRE road to Mania. Clearly they were going somewhere with him, and clearly he was a central part of the storyline.
No he was working with Bray Wyatt until WWE had to abort that feud.

Big Vic

09-24-2015, 09:35 AM

Without ads and they know they don't show everything they can do on free tv.
"Television, not TV."

Heisenberg

09-24-2015, 10:49 AM

Whenever America decides to stop the PC, then we will see the return of the Attitude. Sorry not sorry guys, Attitude Era fan in the house

Shisen Kopf

09-24-2015, 11:12 AM

Don't know why the WWE refuses to call it Brocktoberfest. Have him do a gauntlet for 3 hours on raw.

Shisen Kopf

09-24-2015, 11:12 AM

"Television, not TV."

Hmmm is the WWE Network television or not. Let us debate.

Sixx

09-24-2015, 11:22 AM

"Television, not TV."

Also, advertisements, not ads.

Damian Rey

09-24-2015, 11:43 AM

The product could still thrive without the crash tv approach. The problem lies in not investing in anyone not named Cena. Your top champion shouldn't be losing at all unless he's being a scum bag getting disqualified.

Giving away matches for free, like Cena Rollins. Maybe the televised matches aren't as good as the Network special bouts, but it's still the two same guys going at it on free tv. Kills any hype. Lesnar only wrestling on ppv made him a legit prize fighter attraction. Of course Rollins being featured weekly and defending the belt monthly will water that down, but he shouldn't be getting pinned or submitted cleanly on tv.

The other issue is direction. CyNick joked about Rusev being a contender for Brock and he's right in doing so, citing the currently lame direction they have him going. He went from having a great debut run, through a solid program with Cena, to feuding with a now kinda creepy Dolph Ziggler. Lana goes from being a strong, intelligent woman to arm candy scorned by a seemingly unfaithful man. It was needless and only diminished the characters they spent nearly a year building.

And of course Bray Wyatt should be a, if not the top heel in the company, but he's never been pushed to that level despite consistently delivering on the micand in the ring. He's been over guys like Ambrose, Reigns and Bryan, but they haven't given him that one signature win and I don't understand why.

Evil Vito

09-24-2015, 12:02 PM

I've basically lost faith in Wyatt ever being the top heel in the company. Just feels like it would have happened by now rather than him spending the better part of 2 years just sorta treading water and never really gaining any long-term momentum. Maybe they just don't have faith in his ability to go out an put on an interesting 20 minute main event every PPV.

I mean, even his matches with Cena and Taker were boring as fuck IMO. They clearly trust him to deliver the goods on the mic but the end result ends up just falling flat.

Mr. Nerfect

09-24-2015, 12:04 PM

Joking aside, Lesnar vs. Rusev is something I can totally see the WWE doing at WrestleMania next year. They'll just pretend that this extended back-and-forth program with Dolph Ziggler never happened.

Mr. Nerfect

09-24-2015, 12:04 PM

All this losing of faith in guys having huge futures sure is great for business isn't it?

Mr. Nerfect

09-24-2015, 12:07 PM

The legitimate plans for SmackDown circa 2006/2007 was to launch into a Bobby Lashley/Mr. Kennedy/MVP era. All of those guys are still wrestling, but two left the company and one got fired. It's sad to think about where guys can be not ten years after having the world in their hands.

The CyNick

09-24-2015, 12:20 PM

Lol at this thread and Cynick. Dude must be a member of the Vince McMahon kiss my ass club. Anyone that thinks it was the plan for Bryan to main event WM30 from the start is blind. They literally had to pull him out of a feud with Wyatt in which he had just became a member of the Wyatt family.

The angle played itself out. Bryan wanted to get Bray alone.

I don't think Bryan winning was necessarily the plan the day after Mania 29, but I do think it was in the plans months before 30. Hence all the interactions with HHH.

But keep thinking everything was an accident

Big Vic

09-24-2015, 12:29 PM

The thing about Rusev/Lesnar is that it more intriguing than Show/Lesnar.

Henry/Lesnar is more intriguing. Anyone on the roster is more intriguing than Show/Lesnar.

I'd rather see Lesnar eat Fandango than even touch Big Show.

Damian Rey

09-24-2015, 12:36 PM

Cesaro has been challenging guys who'vehad more success than he has in recent history. Him taking out Big Show and claiming his spot to take on Lesnar would've been far more intriguing. You know Cesaro will lose but the matchup is fresh and Cesaro looks good hitting some power moves and getting a near fall on Lesnar.

The Big Show match, which we saw a few years ago at the Royal Rumble when Lesnar destroyed him, is a bore. I have zero interest in a match we've seen a thousand times.

Evil Vito

09-24-2015, 12:46 PM

The legitimate plans for SmackDown circa 2006/2007 was to launch into a Bobby Lashley/Mr. Kennedy/MVP era. All of those guys are still wrestling, but two left the company and one got fired. It's sad to think about where guys can be not ten years after having the world in their hands.

I would love for MVP to come back as a veteran presence on NXT a la Rhyno. His initial gimmick was drawn from these diva athletes who think they're hot shit...have him come in and try to align himself with Apollo Crews, maybe even trying to be his "agent" and over time he tries to turn Crews into an asshole himself and when it backfires they can feud.

Dunno...I love MVP so I would welcome a return in any capacity. His podcast with Jericho though kinda implied that retirement would be more likely than going back to WWE. Understandable given that he's nearly 42 years old.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-24-2015, 01:30 PM

Yup. So we'll meet up Monday night to discuss RAW? And every week after that and every PPV? We can make lists about how much this show we watch week in and week out blows. It'll be fun.

Fact is whenever I give the product a chance I am drastically disappointed. What captured my imagination and made me a fan is for all intents and purposes gone from the wwe. When I was younger my expectations were lower because I was 7. Now I'm 28 and I need something more stimulating. Not a wrestling show being written like a variety tv show. I still love wrestling though. It's unfortunate that the only game in town lacks the vision to make it must watch t.v.

Emperor Smeat

09-24-2015, 01:33 PM

I've basically lost faith in Wyatt ever being the top heel in the company. Just feels like it would have happened by now rather than him spending the better part of 2 years just sorta treading water and never really gaining any long-term momentum. Maybe they just don't have faith in his ability to go out an put on an interesting 20 minute main event every PPV.

I mean, even his matches with Cena and Taker were boring as fuck IMO. They clearly trust him to deliver the goods on the mic but the end result ends up just falling flat.

He should have beaten Cena at Mania since it would have established him as the top bad guy (at least to the kids) and give Cena's character a fresh boost in a new direction.

Going into that match, the whole emphasis was on Cena's legacy and him not wanting to turn to the darkside in order to beat Bray. Could have redone the redemption angle he had with Rock except this time not be half-assed at the last moment.

Cena could lose casting doubt on how strong his legacy is after all or lose and also "turn" that causes his character to become corrupted a bit. Him beating Rusev a year later for the US belt would have been huge in terms of redemption.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-24-2015, 01:34 PM

So? In your mind, if you dont have ratings at 2005 levels, you cant be financially successful?

How people consume the product today is much different than it was in 1995 and even 2005. Surely you can understand that.

Nobody is talking about financial success, we are talking about putting forth a great product. 2 and a half men was still financially successful with Ashton kutcher, while simultaneously eating a dick.

The CyNick

09-24-2015, 06:03 PM

The product could still thrive without the crash tv approach. The problem lies in not investing in anyone not named Cena. Your top champion shouldn't be losing at all unless he's being a scum bag getting disqualified.

Giving away matches for free, like Cena Rollins. Maybe the televised matches aren't as good as the Network special bouts, but it's still the two same guys going at it on free tv. Kills any hype. Lesnar only wrestling on ppv made him a legit prize fighter attraction. Of course Rollins being featured weekly and defending the belt monthly will water that down, but he shouldn't be getting pinned or submitted cleanly on tv.

The other issue is direction. CyNick joked about Rusev being a contender for Brock and he's right in doing so, citing the currently lame direction they have him going. He went from having a great debut run, through a solid program with Cena, to feuding with a now kinda creepy Dolph Ziggler. Lana goes from being a strong, intelligent woman to arm candy scorned by a seemingly unfaithful man. It was needless and only diminished the characters they spent nearly a year building.

And of course Bray Wyatt should be a, if not the top heel in the company, but he's never been pushed to that level despite consistently delivering on the micand in the ring. He's been over guys like Ambrose, Reigns and Bryan, but they haven't given him that one signature win and I don't understand why.

If a heel never loses, he becomes a babyface real quick. Its human nature to root for the team that wins all the time. When they want to turn Rollins, he will start to accumulate wins.

As for Cena, he should be protected, he's far and away the biggest star in the company. However, for a star of his magnitude, he puts over TONS of people.

Im not a huge fan of PPV rematches on TV the night after the Special. However, in some cases they are okay, and serve to move along storylines. There's never going to be a rule that covers all scenarios. TV is important, you need to keep people watching. If no big matches ever happened on RAW, people would likely tune out.

I think they missed the target with the Rusev-Lana thing. I think they thought moving Lana away from Rusev would turn her into a Sable type character after she left Mero. IMO the mistake was making it a love foursome, instead of just having Lana leave Rusev and do her own thing. Now I think they just need to bring them back together.

Wyatt to me is a strange one. I love his gimmick, I love the way he's portrayed, but I just dont think the average fan digs him. I think people like his intro, and all the bells and whistles around the gimmick. I hear a lot of BORING and WHAT chants when Bray is doing longer promos. Thats not conducive to being a #1 type heel.

The CyNick

09-24-2015, 06:07 PM

Nobody is talking about financial success, we are talking about putting forth a great product. 2 and a half men was still financially successful with Ashton kutcher, while simultaneously eating a dick.

Yeah but now you're in a territory where you are saying your opinion is all that matters. Which is why you fit well with the IWC mentality. You have a small percentage of the audience that follows newsletters and newz sites, and you guys think the WWE should cater to you. Meanwhile all you do is bitch about the product, BUT the kicker is you are the most loyal fans WWE has.

So its odd to expect them to cater to you. The financial success of the company is the only thing that matters. Sure, ratings are lower than 1999. But guess what, technology has changed since then. There are more cable channels since then. Of course ratings are going to be lower. Would WWE trade in their 1999 TV contract for their 2015 TV contract? I highly doubt it. Sure, higher ratings would be amazing, but the bottom line is the bottom line. And the bottom line is really healthy for WWE right now. So something must be going right.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-24-2015, 06:21 PM

I'm not going to dignify the argument with an actual argument, and just say you're basing everything on non-sensical biases and assumptions. I am a super loyal wrestling fan because I've watched since the age of four. You're actually just being silly and grasping at straws.

Mr. Nerfect

09-24-2015, 06:42 PM

I would love for MVP to come back as a veteran presence on NXT a la Rhyno. His initial gimmick was drawn from these diva athletes who think they're hot shit...have him come in and try to align himself with Apollo Crews, maybe even trying to be his "agent" and over time he tries to turn Crews into an asshole himself and when it backfires they can feud.

Dunno...I love MVP so I would welcome a return in any capacity. His podcast with Jericho though kinda implied that retirement would be more likely than going back to WWE. Understandable given that he's nearly 42 years old.

MVP would suit NXT. Personally, I've wanted Finlay to return and work a program with Tyler Breeze. I think MVP could be the "big star humbled" in NXT.

Damian Rey

09-24-2015, 07:18 PM

If a heel never loses, he becomes a babyface real quick. Its human nature to root for the team that wins all the time. When they want to turn Rollins, he will start to accumulate wins.

As for Cena, he should be protected, he's far and away the biggest star in the company. However, for a star of his magnitude, he puts over TONS of people.

Im not a huge fan of PPV rematches on TV the night after the Special. However, in some cases they are okay, and serve to move along storylines. There's never going to be a rule that covers all scenarios. TV is important, you need to keep people watching. If no big matches ever happened on RAW, people would likely tune out.

I think they missed the target with the Rusev-Lana thing. I think they thought moving Lana away from Rusev would turn her into a Sable type character after she left Mero. IMO the mistake was making it a love foursome, instead of just having Lana leave Rusev and do her own thing. Now I think they just need to bring them back together.

Wyatt to me is a strange one. I love his gimmick, I love the way he's portrayed, but I just dont think the average fan digs him. I think people like his intro, and all the bells and whistles around the gimmick. I hear a lot of BORING and WHAT chants when Bray is doing longer promos. Thats not conducive to being a #1 type heel.

I don't recall Triple H losing all that much during his bastard heel run in the Attitude era. He won constantly. It wasn't until he got hurt and came back that he was cheered. And even then, that didn't even last a year. He became the top heel in Raw, won a fuck ton, and the crowd never turned, sans his Mania match with Cena.

They don't need to book Rollins cleanly over every opponent. I'm all for cheap wins because his character fits the slime ball type. Giving a guy like Ryback a roll up victory via distraction every now and again is fine. However, your top champion should in no way lose constantly, on television no less, by being pinned or submitted. By hook or crook a heel champion should be trying to gain heat by going through the back door for victories.

Cena has lost, sure. But other than Punk, who has gone on to be billed as an equal star? I guess you could try top argue Bryan, but injuries will likely leave us never knowing what the outcome of a title run would be. Even when Punk was on top, he wasn't the man like Cena has been the man. That's not Cena's fault, however, using him to elevate younger guys into more prominent positions within the company has been a massive failure on the company's end. Owens, Wyatt, Rusev should all be bigger deals. Thankfully, Owens is being given a go as intercontinental champion in a soft reboot. Those other two went nowhere fast.

I typically watch Raw weekly, and I've never hear a boring chant at Wyatt. Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to experience it. Also, his cadence in his promos does not lend itself to getting the what chant. He's one of the few people other than Cena who can actually promo like he's conversing instead of regurgitating lines.

I still believe he can be a big deal. Everything is in place to make him a top star. It's whether or not they pull the trigger and give him the right direction that's the pending issue for him.

Damian Rey

09-24-2015, 07:25 PM

One more point. They've been giving away free matches in tv for years. Ratings are dwindling. We could only guess that people have found other forms of entertainment on Monday nights that better hold their attention.

The big match is seemingly not much of a draw. Maybe if they took thethree hours of television and used it to invest in the talent that's being grossly underutilized, and gave them real direction and character arcs, the ratings would come back.

The fact that Raw's viewership is consistently dwindling, imo, speaks to the lack of care and concern in which the WWE writes and develops its flagship show and the roster they have at their disposal.

Bad News Gertner

09-24-2015, 08:29 PM

Honestly, with the WWE Network and other online avenues, there's so much awesome stuff from years gone by to explore and watch now that I can't be bothered anymore to watch Smackdown or Raw,

Currently watch a WWF MSG show from 1984. Murdoch and Adnois vs the Wild Samoans two out of three falls on right now and I'm highly enjoying it. Murdoch and Adonis were an awesome team,

Damian Rey

09-24-2015, 08:33 PM

There's a Flair Hogan match on one of those msg shows that I thoroughly enjoyed.

Bad News Gertner

09-24-2015, 09:12 PM

The MSG shows from the 80's/early 90's are always a fun watch.

The CyNick

09-24-2015, 09:49 PM

I'm not going to dignify the argument with an actual argument, and just say you're basing everything on non-sensical biases and assumptions. I am a super loyal wrestling fan because I've watched since the age of four. You're actually just being silly and grasping at straws.

Funny, I feel the same about you. Im not the one preaching about how much something I watch every week sucks.

Take some time away from the sheets and see how much more enjoyable the product becomes. Its not perfect all the time, but its still entertaining. Thats why I watch.

#1-norm-fan

09-25-2015, 12:10 AM

No one over the age of 10 who wasn't hooked on wrestling from a prior generation is tuning in now and saying "Gee. This is compelling." It's just an abysmal product. It really is, without exaggeration, probably the most poorly written thing on television. You can only stay complacent with what you've created in the past for so long before you need to actually produce something worth watching in the present again.

SlickyTrickyDamon

09-25-2015, 12:16 AM

I think CyNick has a point though. Extreme knowledge of the behind the scenes of the product from dirt sheets hurts enjoyment. That Dolphinfan guy's predictions ruined many ppvs when people (OwenBrown) would post what he found out on threads. When Jim Cornette was working for TNA he overtly stayed away from finding out what was going to happen for a (slight) chance to enjoy the show.

Big Vic

09-25-2015, 09:24 AM

If a heel never loses, he becomes a babyface real quick. Its human nature to root for the team that wins all the time. When they want to turn Rollins, he will start to accumulate wins.

I don't remember people cheering Rusev last year.

Shisen Kopf

09-25-2015, 09:30 AM

They cheered for him at the royal rumble bc no one wanted Romen Reigns to win. I was torn who to cheer for. I can't go against the anti USA #1 soviet but then again Roman Reigns was so undeserving bc the Internet tells me so.

Big Vic

09-25-2015, 09:57 AM

I cheered for Curtis Axel.

The CyNick

09-25-2015, 12:14 PM

I think CyNick has a point though. Extreme knowledge of the behind the scenes of the product from dirt sheets hurts enjoyment. That Dolphinfan guy's predictions ruined many ppvs when people (OwenBrown) would post what he found out on threads. When Jim Cornette was working for TNA he overtly stayed away from finding out what was going to happen for a (slight) chance to enjoy the show.

Good post

The CyNick

09-25-2015, 12:49 PM

No one over the age of 10 who wasn't hooked on wrestling from a prior generation is tuning in now and saying "Gee. This is compelling." It's just an abysmal product. It really is, without exaggeration, probably the most poorly written thing on television. You can only stay complacent with what you've created in the past for so long before you need to actually produce something worth watching in the present again.

I think you're mixing things up.

Wrestling is and always has been a pretty basic level form of storytelling and character developmental. Even the greatest angles in the history of the business were not exactly Emmy Award winning pieces of writing. Was Vince ending up as the Higher Power more compelling than the stuff today?

I personally think the storytelling is no different today than it was 15 years ago. Triple H and Steph are the new Mr McMahon. You have the same cheesy love triangle storylines (Mero-Sable is Rusev-Lana). You have the cowardly heel champion gifted the belt (Rock was in the same spot Rollins is today). And most of those storylines have been staples in all wrestling territories.

There are several differences that cause people to percieve the current product as being not as good and the IWC faithful like to blame creative because it's the easy thing to do. When they should look closer at external factors.

First, the talent just isn't as good. In the ring, generally speaking each generation gets better in the ring. As athletes evolve they are able to do more things. If Kofi Kingston came along in 1990, he would stand out, today he's just another guy.

But the other aspects of being a sports entertainer are lost on a lot of guys. I think a lot of it has to do with the millennial generation. I think they expect creative to cultivate every aspect of their character and tell them what to say. In reality they should take ownership of the character they are given and contribute to the creative process so their character comes off more genuine. If you listen to the guys who made the serious money in this business they all talk about taking charge of their own characters. More guys should take that advice and run with it. Don't sit back and wait on the bench for your name to be called. Leave no doubt that you should be a star and if you are skilled, you will be one. Daniel Bryan is a great example of this and unfortunately he's rare in todays crop of talent. He proved he belonged at the top, and creative cultivated that.

The other problem is people remember the Attitude era fondly but in reality it was scumbag level TV. I was in my late teens during that era so it seemed cool, but looking back I would never want children exposed to the filth that was being presented on a weekly basis. At the time it was okay for WWE to present such a product because they were a solely owned company that was seen as renegade.

It wasn't a sustainable business model for the worldwide publicly traded entertainment conglomerate that the company has flourished into. Advertisers wanted no part of them, they were getting crucified in the media, nobody wanted to be associated with them. Now they are a much more mature brand, and you see the benefits of some of the cross promotional efforts that exist today. It's a product you are not afraid to watch with your children and grandparents alike. On top of that and more importantly is fiscally healthier.

The last thing is the violence. I think people have this fond memory of the late 90s because every other night you had someone risking life and limb or spilling blood to pop a rating. As a lifelong fan, i'm happier with the current toned down product. Hopefully fewer guys have concussion issues and crippling neck injuries. I can do without the off the ladder spear every month. I'd rather watch Xavier Woods play the trombone.

Once i stopped reading the sheets, I enjoyed wrestling for the same whackiness that got me hooked on it in the first place. If i find myself not enjoying a show i will stop watching. For example, I hated this past season of House of Cards. My reaction isn't to subscribe to Mave Deltzers newsletter to find out which writer had the most power last season, i'm just going to stop watching. Life is too short to waste time. If you enjoy, watch. If not, go check out anything on TLC and let me know how WWE writing stacks up.

Sixx

09-25-2015, 12:50 PM

PLS STOP :(

Big Vic

09-25-2015, 01:30 PM

Or just watch MNF like me.

Rammsteinmad

09-25-2015, 01:40 PM

Jesus, no way am I reading all of that.

EzekielKane

09-25-2015, 01:50 PM

I think you're mixing things up.

Wrestling is and always has been a pretty basic level form of storytelling and character developmental. Even the greatest angles in the history of the business were not exactly Emmy Award winning pieces of writing. Was Vince ending up as the Higher Power more compelling than the stuff today?

I personally think the storytelling is no different today than it was 15 years ago. Triple H and Steph are the new Mr McMahon. You have the same cheesy love triangle storylines (Mero-Sable is Rusev-Lana). You have the cowardly heel champion gifted the belt (Rock was in the same spot Rollins is today). And most of those storylines have been staples in all wrestling territories.

There are several differences that cause people to percieve the current product as being not as good and the IWC faithful like to blame creative because it's the easy thing to do. When they should look closer at external factors.

First, the talent just isn't as good. In the ring, generally speaking each generation gets better in the ring. As athletes evolve they are able to do more things. If Kofi Kingston came along in 1990, he would stand out, today he's just another guy.

But the other aspects of being a sports entertainer are lost on a lot of guys. I think a lot of it has to do with the millennial generation. I think they expect creative to cultivate every aspect of their character and tell them what to say. In reality they should take ownership of the character they are given and contribute to the creative process so their character comes off more genuine. If you listen to the guys who made the serious money in this business they all talk about taking charge of their own characters. More guys should take that advice and run with it. Don't sit back and wait on the bench for your name to be called. Leave no doubt that you should be a star and if you are skilled, you will be one. Daniel Bryan is a great example of this and unfortunately he's rare in todays crop of talent. He proved he belonged at the top, and creative cultivated that.

The other problem is people remember the Attitude era fondly but in reality it was scumbag level TV. I was in my late teens during that era so it seemed cool, but looking back I would never want children exposed to the filth that was being presented on a weekly basis. At the time it was okay for WWE to present such a product because they were a solely owned company that was seen as renegade.

It wasn't a sustainable business model for the worldwide publicly traded entertainment conglomerate that the company has flourished into. Advertisers wanted no part of them, they were getting crucified in the media, nobody wanted to be associated with them. Now they are a much more mature brand, and you see the benefits of some of the cross promotional efforts that exist today. It's a product you are not afraid to watch with your children and grandparents alike. On top of that and more importantly is fiscally healthier.

The last thing is the violence. I think people have this fond memory of the late 90s because every other night you had someone risking life and limb or spilling blood to pop a rating. As a lifelong fan, i'm happier with the current toned down product. Hopefully fewer guys have concussion issues and crippling neck injuries. I can do without the off the ladder spear every month. I'd rather watch Xavier Woods play the trombone.

Once i stopped reading the sheets, I enjoyed wrestling for the same whackiness that got me hooked on it in the first place. If i find myself not enjoying a show i will stop watching. For example, I hated this past season of House of Cards. My reaction isn't to subscribe to Mave Deltzers newsletter to find out which writer had the most power last season, i'm just going to stop watching. Life is too short to waste time. If you enjoy, watch. If not, go check out anything on TLC and let me know how WWE writing stacks up.

I agree with all of this, you make some good point! The wrestling storylines we see are almost always the same in fed to fed, generation to generation. What matters is the stars acting out those storyline and OBJCTIVElY the stars of today are better in the ring...but the storylines are no longer "shocking" because its all been done before and done more hardcore in a better way.
No matter how good the wrestlers are, you will not be as entertained by a stable taking over a fed now that NWO had been done!

Fox

09-25-2015, 02:13 PM

If it's the same guy, I remember reading The Cynick's weekly column here on TPWW every week back in the late 90s. But something has definitely changed because that guy actually seemed to know what he was talking about, whereas this guy hereally really seems to be lost in some kind of confused tunnel. The evidence that Daniel Bryan was not factored into the WrestleMania 30 main event until after the events of the Royal Rumble and CM Punks departure is pretty overwhelming. Punk even says it in the podcast with Colt Cabana, where he pulls no punches and basically let's it all out. Just the fact that Cynick is debating this point from an assumed stance of such confidence is pretty absurd.

Of course, he could just be messing with the lot of you.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-25-2015, 02:47 PM

Of course, he could just be messing with the lot of you.

This is what I'm hoping for, but all in the same would be kind of sad.

Big Vic

09-25-2015, 03:48 PM

The evidence that Daniel Bryan was not factored into the WrestleMania 30 main event until after the events of the Royal Rumble and CM Punks departure is pretty overwhelming. Punk even says it in the podcast with Colt Cabana, where he pulls no punches and basically let's it all out. Just the fact that Cynick is debating this point from an assumed stance of such confidence is pretty absurd.
Oh sure a guy who hates the company says this.[/CyNick]

The CyNick

09-25-2015, 03:51 PM

If it's the same guy, I remember reading The Cynick's weekly column here on TPWW every week back in the late 90s. But something has definitely changed because that guy actually seemed to know what he was talking about, whereas this guy hereally really seems to be lost in some kind of confused tunnel. The evidence that Daniel Bryan was not factored into the WrestleMania 30 main event until after the events of the Royal Rumble and CM Punks departure is pretty overwhelming. Punk even says it in the podcast with Colt Cabana, where he pulls no punches and basically let's it all out. Just the fact that Cynick is debating this point from an assumed stance of such confidence is pretty absurd.

Of course, he could just be messing with the lot of you.

Same person. You learn things as you go.

Do you think Punk knew every booking possibility that Vince had on his desk?

SlickyTrickyDamon

09-25-2015, 03:52 PM

I don't remember people cheering Rusev last year.

When he was faced Cena he got a good pop for passing Cena out.

The CyNick

09-25-2015, 04:27 PM

Explain this to me.

If WWE had no intention of featuring Bryan at Mania, why did he go over Cena at Summerslam? Why take the top star in the company and have him JOB to a guy you don't see much in? Why not let them have a competitive match where Cena goes over? Then have Orton cash in MITB and proceed to the Batista v Orton payoff.

Why have Bryan get completely screwed out of the title by The Authority in the Fall? Isn't that usually a time where Mania programs start to take shape? Odd how that worked.

It possible WWE thought Batista v Orton would be a bigger attraction because Batista had been away from TV and then payoff Bryan winning back the title after Mania. But that's not how WWE usually caps off long running storylines. I think someone mentioned the rumour was Bryan vs Sheamus. And maybe that was true. But maybe the rumoured Punk v HHH match was to get Bryan into the main event. Maybe Sheamus was going to be there to just lay a beating on Bryan "in case" HHH lost to Punk.

Just seems like they blew a lot of TV time on Bryan v The Authority to just have it pay off with absolutely nothing. Interesting how the story that actually played out led into a Bats heel turn, which led to Shield v Evolution, which led to Rollins turning heel and setting up the next 18-24 months of storylines. For on the fly that's pretty good.

Sixx

09-25-2015, 04:36 PM

Someone mercy kill this thread, please.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-25-2015, 04:56 PM

Gonna have to go against everything I believe in, and agree with Sixx.

Maluco

09-25-2015, 05:32 PM

TWO WORDS: PUSH CESARO

Last night, I was asked a simple question during the Q&A part of my show in Philadelphia: "if you were in charge of ‪#‎WWE‬, what one change would you make?" I gave a simple answer. Push Cesaro. I'm not trying to create controversy or be a pain in WWE's neck - but the recent treatment of this guy on TV is downright baffling to me. Besides, as long as I said it, and it will be reported on (which I'm pretty sure it will be) you might as well read it here first. I know Steve Austin has been an enthusiastic Cesaro - WWE supporter. Maybe he needs a little bit of help. Maybe my opinion will mean something. Maybe yours will too. Tell me about your favorite Cesaro - WWE match. Give this post a like and a comment..maybe even share it - and we'll see if a few thousand comments on the Foley Facebook page (which I KNOW the WWE front-office reads) might make a difference.

This was posted by Mick Foley on his Facebook page and mentions how both he and Austin are baffled and are massive supporters of Cesaro.

Now, you are right to say that Big Show should have won on Monday when they are building up to a big show (no pun intended) with him in the main event, but guys like Foley have been around the business, Vince, booking teams, locker rooms etc... For decades. They know the business inside out and wouldn't say something stupid or ignorant that disregarded the way the business works.

Posts like this are not fanboys asking for favourite wrestlers to be pushed. These are knowledgeable professionals who are looking at what's happening on TV and saying...this isn't right.

This is just one example. There is something fundamentally wrong with WWE writing, a slew of issues, and even if they get where they need to be eventually, they are not doing it in a way that is entertaining.

The CyNick

09-25-2015, 05:44 PM

TWO WORDS: PUSH CESARO

Last night, I was asked a simple question during the Q&A part of my show in Philadelphia: "if you were in charge of ‪#‎WWE‬, what one change would you make?" I gave a simple answer. Push Cesaro. I'm not trying to create controversy or be a pain in WWE's neck - but the recent treatment of this guy on TV is downright baffling to me. Besides, as long as I said it, and it will be reported on (which I'm pretty sure it will be) you might as well read it here first. I know Steve Austin has been an enthusiastic Cesaro - WWE supporter. Maybe he needs a little bit of help. Maybe my opinion will mean something. Maybe yours will too. Tell me about your favorite Cesaro - WWE match. Give this post a like and a comment..maybe even share it - and we'll see if a few thousand comments on the Foley Facebook page (which I KNOW the WWE front-office reads) might make a difference.

This was posted by Mick Foley on his Facebook page and mentions how both he and Austin are baffled and are massive supporters of Cesaro.

Now, you are right to say that Big Show should have won on Monday when they are building up to a big show (no pun intended) with him in the main event, but guys like Foley have been around the business, Vince, booking teams, locker rooms etc... For decades. They know the business inside out and wouldn't say something stupid or ignorant that disregarded the way the business works.

Posts like this are not fanboys asking for favourite wrestlers to be pushed. These are knowledgeable professionals who are looking at what's happening on TV and saying...this isn't right.

This is just one example. There is something fundamentally wrong with WWE writing, a slew of issues, and even if they get where they need to be eventually, they are not doing it in a way that is entertaining.

This is a classic case of overreaction.

As I mentioned previously, Cesaro is in the middle of program with Big Show. He's losing right now, because thats the logical thing to do to heat up Show, who will heat up Lesnar for his big fight with Taker. Anyone who thinks thats bad booking is just complaining to be difficult.

Now, you can argue Cesaro shouldnt be in that spot, but I think in the long run it will help him. He will go over Show at some point, mark my words. And when he does, it will be a bigger deal than if Cesaro just beat Show on some random RAW one week.

The other issue that Cesaro faces is he's not in the main event plans right now. I know some fans wish he was there, but its not his time. There are plans already in place, so in the meantime, Cesaro is prominently featured on RAW every week, and will slowly move up the card.

They had him work with Owens, and I believe that program will be picked back up at some point. The goal for Cesaro should be to capitalize on whatever programs he's in to make it crystal clear to the decision makers that he should be in the plans for main eventing Mania 33 and beyond. But he needs to work on things. Ive noticed in the last couple months, he's starting to round out an arsenal in the ring that will help him get his matches over beyond just his entrance and the swing. He needs to continue to work on the mic work. We all know thats critical. He's not at a main event level yet with that.

In time, I believe Cesaro will make it. And when he does people will claim WWE never wanted him to be a main eventer, it just sorta happened.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-25-2015, 05:45 PM

big show shouldn't be wrestling Lesnar

Damian Rey

09-25-2015, 07:03 PM

Batista comes back, gets a face pop, wins the Rumble, gets shit on, cuts face promos afterwards, gets shit on some more, and the main event is magically altered out of un telegraphed, outta nowhere Batista heel turn and the Bryan/Triple H stipulation added 4 weeks before Mania. Completely planned from the get go.

The CyNick

09-25-2015, 07:29 PM

Batista comes back, gets a face pop, wins the Rumble, gets shit on, cuts face promos afterwards, gets shit on some more, and the main event is magically altered out of un telegraphed, outta nowhere Batista heel turn and the Bryan/Triple H stipulation added 4 weeks before Mania. Completely planned from the get go.

So you're ignoring Summerslan-Survivor series. It's cool because it blows your argument out of the water.

It of nowhere heel turn magically turned into the main program for post Mania 30

Damian Rey

09-25-2015, 08:00 PM

No it doesn't. They booked him to lose, then put him in a feud with Wyatt while they attempted to get Batista ready for the main event. He was added in as filler to the elimination chamber match and when it became glaringly obvious Batista wasn't gonna get the face pop and the fans were shitting all over him and his segments, Bryan was suddenly put into a position to main event.

Why are you arguing something the man himself has stated several times it was not the plan to put him in the main event? What reason would he have to lie? What reason would CM Punk have to lie about having a planned mania match with Triple H? What purpose would that serve?

Damian Rey

09-25-2015, 08:05 PM

https://youtu.be/yhW-JvO0joo

Quotes Vince McMahon. The boss. What reason does he have t lie? To pretty much throw Vince under the bus for seemingly and willingly missing the boat on putting him in the main event?

Wishbone

09-25-2015, 10:04 PM

CyNick is either the greatest troll of our generation or the most stubborn asshat. Either way it's pretty amazing to witness this whole thing unfold. History in the making folks.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-25-2015, 11:05 PM

I'll give CyNick his due in that he gets us to react, after reading his posts I'm legit like this: :rant:

It's actually hilarious.

Mr. Nerfect

09-26-2015, 01:46 AM

CyNick is coming off more and more like that millennial personality that thinks any attention is good attention. It's like those goofs that hop the barricade and pose, but in a pseudo-intellectual way. I wouldn't pay to see him get his ass beat in a blow-off yet though -- kind of a Bo Dallas-type heel at the moment.

Mr. Nerfect

09-26-2015, 01:49 AM

The thing is Cesaro went over Big Show at WrestleMania XXX. A one-on-one match between the two would have been perfectly fine for Battleground or even SummerSlam last year, but they really messed up Cesaro's world-beater push by never having him beat anyone past Rob Van Dam at Extreme Rules -- a program that was actually cooled by RVD's random involvement.

What you're saying about Cesaro beating Big Show later actually makes sense, only that it should have already happened. Cesaro should not be the World Heavyweight Champion right now with everything that has happened in the past, but he should be in the upper mid-card that Big Show gate-keeps.

Mr. Nerfect

09-26-2015, 01:56 AM

You need to reward the fans' emotional investment in something by giving them a big win occasionally, and then making that win seem like it means something. They've avoided this with not only Cesaro, but Dean Ambrose and Bray Wyatt too. Nothing they've really done recently has felt like an "event" -- an emotional "moment" you can latch onto as a fan as a frame of reference to their importance in professional wrestling. The last one for Ambrose was probably the Shield clean-sweep against Evolution at Payback.

If I were a betting man, I'd have lost so much money on the above mentioned guys, and I don't know how I'd sit my son down and tell them him that he should still believe in Cesaro or Dean Ambrose. Why would my son want the shirt of a wrestler that loses almost all of their PPV matches until they win a few then go back to losing just as you thought things were turning around?

Outsider

09-26-2015, 08:01 AM

While things are far from perfect, things are still a lot better than they were a few years ago.

At least we've moved on from the attitude of just pushing every talentless giant that used to be the case and instead those who can actually wrestle seem to be getting a shot.

And they've managed to create some new stars. There is a champion at the moment who isn't Cena or Orton. That in itself should be celebrated.

Things far from perfect, and obviously what they do with Cesaro and a few others week after week is still ridiculous. But still, looking back, things could be a lot worse.

Anybody Thrilla

09-26-2015, 12:15 PM

Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

Ol Dirty Dastard

09-26-2015, 01:06 PM

Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

Similar to Bret at mania ten.

Mr. Nerfect

09-26-2015, 04:26 PM

Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

It was a depressing time to be a Daniel Bryan fan when they illogically moved him from the title picture, and didn't include him in the 2014 Royal Rumble. It would have been even tougher to have been a Rey Mysterio fan, I think.

Mr. Nerfect

09-26-2015, 04:30 PM

There is a point to be had when it comes to avoiding spoilers. That's why I don't keep up with the NXT tapings results. I get genuinely surprised when things happen in NXT. That being said, I read the SmackDown spoilers because I am not prepared to invest two hours in a show that might be entirely redundant. I also read PPV recaps before I watch, because I don't trust the WWE to not enrage my sensibilities. It's safer to read the spoilers than invest the time. Sorry, but for my sanity it is.

NXT has me. Actually, any wrestling product that could get me hooked would. But I'm not going to avoid spoilers just so I can try and convince myself to be into something. I'm not that much of a masochist.

Damian Rey

09-26-2015, 04:40 PM

I try to avoid NXT spoilers, and since I can only watch the hulu version of raw, try to avoid the Raw thread. It doesn't change how I feel about Raw. It's the same 3 hours of two or three storylines with meaningless matches.

NXT however, is the fucking shit.

XL

09-26-2015, 04:54 PM

Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

It's a distraction tactic.

I already asked what it had to do with the idea that the product is sub-par currently and he ignored it.

Mr. Nerfect

09-26-2015, 06:41 PM

NXT doesn't just have better booking, but it has a better format too. They're not afraid to give each show an organic presentation, and it takes a lot more sound-minded chances with the stories it gives us.

Damian Rey

09-26-2015, 07:57 PM

I just enjoy that I'm not watching last minute thrown together segments. The Apollo Crews Solomon Crowe match is a prime example. Obvious hints at Crowe resenting the crowd and getting frustrated with his own performance. Add Corey Graves' excellent commentary throughout the match and voila, what could've been a throwaway match actually serves purpose for the two guys involved. Who'd have thunk it?

#1-norm-fan

09-26-2015, 08:57 PM

Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

It's something to argue about in the context of WWE being bizarrely inept when it comes to simple writing vs WWE actually being very well written. Within that discussion there's a big difference between them planning it all along and them being forced to call an audible to save the biggest show of the year from being a disaster.

I thought Daniel Bryan in the main event at WrestleMania was an awful idea and they managed to book things in a way where even I didn't think there was any other option eventually. Certainly not a fucking match with Sheamus. Booking such an underdog story to the point of jamming it down fans throats for 6 months that he's the hopeless underdog who will never win the big one with the plan to NOT eventually have him with the big one is such an awful idea that it's seriously just fucking weird how professional writers can not realize it from the get go.

Damian Rey

09-26-2015, 10:12 PM

Yeah. If the plan was never for him to have main evented, he never should've beaten Cena. It was that completely legitimate victory that confirmed to the fans that Daniel Bryan was main event caliber. Had he won with an inside cradle it have been different. The constant screw jobs didn't help either. If wanting the audience to believe a guy is a B+ player is the goal, youbook him to lose cleanly. You don't make it seem like he has a chance but keeps getting swerved.

BigCrippyZ

09-26-2015, 10:14 PM

Booking such an underdog story to the point of jamming it down fans throats for 6 months that he's the hopeless underdog who will never win the big one with the plan to NOT eventually have him with the big one is such an awful idea that it's seriously just fucking weird how professional writers can not realize it from the get go.

I seriously wonder if Vince is out of touch to the point that he doesn't really remember what writing/booking has occurred in the past 3-6 months and so he thinks fans won't remember or don't care enough to remember about some of the past writing/booking that has occurred in the past 3-6 months. In other words, unless it's something historic like Brock breaking the streak, if it hasn't been setup in the last few weeks, it doesn't really matter because fans won't remember or care enough because Vince doesn't remember or care enough.

Damian Rey

09-26-2015, 11:25 PM

Like Brock Lesnar destroying Big Show at Royal Rumble a few years ago. And by destroy I mean eliminating any doubt Big Show ever had a legitimate shot at winning, rendering his promo recently useless.

#1-norm-fan

09-27-2015, 11:25 PM

I actually don't mind Lesnar vs Show happening again at the MSG show. Obviously Show isn't in Lesnar's league but I feel like it's not really meant to be anything more than a showcase of Brock's dominance. Brock's gonna (or at least should) beat the living shit out of Show again to show the world what he could do to Taker. It's just kinda old school booking. Since Brock is too much of an attraction to wrestle on Raw, it makes his matches on network specials equate to a Raw match for him. People will tune in just to see him dominate. Same reason I didn't mind him facing Kofi in Japan. I didn't take the special as a HUGE deal and the match served its purpose.

Damian Rey

09-28-2015, 12:37 AM

I agree on the stance that Brock just being on the show is an attraction. I just wish they would feed him someone new. Someone I'd actuall look forward to seeing him destroy. Like the Miz. That'd be fun.

Mr. Nerfect

09-28-2015, 05:57 AM

I'm fine with Lesnar vs. Big Show. I find the need to "build" to it non-existent though.

Rammsteinmad

09-28-2015, 07:28 AM

I'm with Damien Ray.

I can't believe we still haven't had fucking Brock Lesnar vs. Randy Orton (other than their 2002 match).

Big Vic

09-28-2015, 07:46 AM

Yeah Brock vs Miz would be cool too.

Shisen Kopf

09-28-2015, 07:54 AM

This thread has just been designated as a

SERIOUS BUSINESS ZONE

I don't wanna see any non SRS BSNS posts. Only post like CYnick from here on.

Rammsteinmad

09-28-2015, 08:21 AM

I ain't got the time for that bollocks. Quick sentences or STFU! :fu:

Big Vic

09-29-2015, 10:05 AM

Didn't watch Raw but CyNick was stating earlier how Cesaro vs Show would continue and end up with Cesaro looking good in the end. I know it wouldn't have have ended last night but did it continue at all?

The CyNick

09-29-2015, 12:26 PM

Didn't watch Raw but CyNick was stating earlier how Cesaro vs Show would continue and end up with Cesaro looking good in the end. I know it wouldn't have have ended last night but did it continue at all?

They didn't do anything. My guess is to not muddy the waters. Need to focus on Show vs Lesnar.

My guess is Cesaro gets back in his face either right after MSG or after HIAC leading into Survivor Series. Then Cesaro goes after the IC or US titles.

Mr. JL

09-29-2015, 02:03 PM

I think most fans already KNOW whoever they pit against Brock Lesnar on a Network special is going to job so why not put someone different in there to help elevate them and to see something new?

We have all seen Brock Lesnar versus the Big Show on more than one occasion. Yes, Lesnar can overhead suplex, german suplex, F-5 and superplex him from the top rope.

Could have been ANOTHER breakout match for Cesaro, even in a losing situation.

Hell, even have the Undertaker make a distraction appearance and Cesaro steals a victory. It won't hurt Lesnar at all and would only add more fuel to the Hell in the Cell match while giving another guy a huge rub.

Damian Rey

09-29-2015, 02:10 PM

I don' like the idea of Lesnar losing do under card guys because WWE has shown zero ability to utilize guys after a big win.

I'd just rather see something other than another Big Show Lesnar match that's been basically admitted to happening countless times.

I know CyNick believes they'll move Cesaro back to Big Show once that match has passed but I'm not sure what indication has ever been given to lead one to believe Cesaro will ever be used more than as a solid hand to give guys a good ten to fifteen minutes.

Mr. JL

09-29-2015, 02:25 PM

I don' like the idea of Lesnar losing do under card guys because WWE has shown zero ability to utilize guys after a big win.

I'd just rather see something other than another Big Show Lesnar match that's been basically admitted to happening countless times.

I know CyNick believes they'll move Cesaro back to Big Show once that match has passed but I'm not sure what indication has ever been given to lead one to believe Cesaro will ever be used more than as a solid hand to give guys a good ten to fifteen minutes.

Yeah, this is true about WWE failing to capitalize on any big win momentum with undercard guys.

I agree there is not much indication on WWE's part. I think the Cesaro bandwagon mostly comes from the hopes of bored fans at this point and the ratings reflect this.

The CyNick

10-02-2015, 09:14 PM

I think most fans already KNOW whoever they pit against Brock Lesnar on a Network special is going to job so why not put someone different in there to help elevate them and to see something new?

We have all seen Brock Lesnar versus the Big Show on more than one occasion. Yes, Lesnar can overhead suplex, german suplex, F-5 and superplex him from the top rope.

Could have been ANOTHER breakout match for Cesaro, even in a losing situation.

Hell, even have the Undertaker make a distraction appearance and Cesaro steals a victory. It won't hurt Lesnar at all and would only add more fuel to the Hell in the Cell match while giving another guy a huge rub.

But again, you're missing the key part in all this. There's absolutely nothing impressive about Lesnar beating Cesaro. Cesaro and Lesnar are not in the same league. If Lesnar beats Cesaro, it would be no different that Lesnar beating Kofi in Japan. That didnt exactly elevate Kofi. Big Show at the very least is a physical monster, and Lesnar doing big power moves to him are impressive. Plus they have a history that is unique. Heyman screwed Lesnar in the Garden and went with Show.

They obviously have a larger plan for Lesnar. He shouldnt be losing to guys at Cesaro's level at this stage. Maybe in 18 months if Cesaro has been slowly built up, he could be in a position to go over a guy like Lesnar on route to becoming a headliner.

The CyNick

10-02-2015, 09:18 PM

I don' like the idea of Lesnar losing do under card guys because WWE has shown zero ability to utilize guys after a big win.

I'd just rather see something other than another Big Show Lesnar match that's been basically admitted to happening countless times.

I know CyNick believes they'll move Cesaro back to Big Show once that match has passed but I'm not sure what indication has ever been given to lead one to believe Cesaro will ever be used more than as a solid hand to give guys a good ten to fifteen minutes.

He might never make it beyond upper mid card, but I do believe there is a larger story between him and Show at play. I'm just going by things the commentators say, and the layout of the matches. In most of the matches, Cesaro tries some power move, he sells it, and it leads to the loss. I think the logic is to help put over when Lesnar does it to Show effectively. But then in the future, it can a deal where Cesaro got even stronger, or learned to focus on winning, and not just crazy power moves. Then he will move up the card. Where he goes from there, is up to him, and how he gets himself over.

Damian Rey

10-02-2015, 09:23 PM

Well there was zero mention of Cesaro during Big Shows segment last week. And he's never made it out of the midcard, let alone upper. It's just wishful thinking at this point. I'd wager a hefty sum that after Lesnar walks through Big Show, that'll be the end of that and Cesaro will not be magically revisited.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 12:17 AM

We'll see

I mean it doesnt really matter either way. I'm laying out what I see happening, but its very possible they are not happy with Cesaro's lack of progression and want to keep him where he is.

It'll give us more to talk about in the coming weeks. Let's see what they come up with.

#1-norm-fan

10-05-2015, 04:06 AM

We'll see

I mean it doesnt really matter either way.

Of course it doesn't matter either way because you'll sing the bookings praises regardless and when someone posts undeniable evidence like Daniel Bryan basically saying "Hey, CyNick... That thing you're saying about me... the guy who is speaking right now on the very subject you're trying to make a point about... You're completely wrong", you'll avoid it like the plague so you can still try to explain how the "monkeys on keyboards" nonsensical booking is top notch.

Big Vic

10-05-2015, 08:59 AM

Really think CyNick is trolling us now.

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-05-2015, 12:04 PM

CyNick is top notch in his commitment to his argument. I don't necessarily think he's trolling, I think he's doing his best to see the good in the programming. To US though, the programming sucks. It is subjective though, he can think it's as great as he wants... but he's not going to change our minds and we aren't going to change his.

I think the main issue, is as we've all gotten older (I think even Matt Hardy made this point) is we get into these awesome HBO shows and AMC shows and we want a little more sophistication in the product... and WWE ain't about that. I think there was a time (and no, not the attitude era) when they were. I think it was many moons ago. But wrestling takes a LONGGGG time to move with the times. Soon, Vince will be done, HHH will take over and we'll see what the product looks like then. I actually think the more sophisticated kind of product can be seen in the days of the territories, when it was treated as more of a sport than a spectacle. I personally think they need to treat the product as more of a sport as opposed to trying to make it a variety (three) hour(s) and an action show. Not to say they need to stop with making it a spectacle, it NEEDS to be a spectacle and grandiose, but dial it down about a billion fucking notches. Make it feel more real. Just because everyone knows it's scripted doesn't mean everything needs to seem incredibly scripted. But this is just the broken tape recording. Good t.v. is good t.v. And that doesn't mean 45 minute matches of work rate, that means exciting and fresh title matches, tournaments, feuds and results of feuds that mean something... DARE I SAY continuity in EVERY SINGLE story line.... and hell even having guys intermingle and feud with other guys while they're still feuding with someone else. Guys used to feud for years on end, continuing their feud while other guys came into the mix, but also only wrestling once or twice in that vicinity. Kevin Owens and John Cena wrestled 3 times in like a month. What the actual fuck. make it 6 months, and have different co-mingling feuds go on where both guys win and talk shit on each other and attack each other. It's not complicated.

/ :rant:

Innovator

10-05-2015, 12:10 PM

Paraphrasing from something I read earlier, HBO isn't spending the majority of Game of Thrones telling us how great the Sopranos was.

Innovator

10-05-2015, 12:11 PM

Something telling HHH said on the NXT panel, when something gets over that he didn't think would, he still runs with it. That is in direct contrast to Vince who kills anything organically gets over without consent.

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-05-2015, 12:34 PM

I mean the thing to keep in mind, probably in Vince's mind is he can do whatever the fuck he wants... and realistically he can, so there's no stopping him lol.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 12:38 PM

Of course it doesn't matter either way because you'll sing the bookings praises regardless and when someone posts undeniable evidence like Daniel Bryan basically saying "Hey, CyNick... That thing you're saying about me... the guy who is speaking right now on the very subject you're trying to make a point about... You're completely wrong", you'll avoid it like the plague so you can still try to explain how the "monkeys on keyboards" nonsensical booking is top notch.

I'm happy to debate the Daniel Bryan thing with anyone. The reality is I to a fault, try to address any comments made to me. However, nobody on the side who thinks Daniel's push was never planned refuses to explain why he went over Cena clean if their were no long term plans for him. I guess Dave Meltzer never addressed that, so that side of the argument cant formulate a response.

Back to Cesaro. If it doesnt happen like I said it would, its likely because "plans change".

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 12:42 PM

CyNick is top notch in his commitment to his argument. I don't necessarily think he's trolling, I think he's doing his best to see the good in the programming. To US though, the programming sucks. It is subjective though, he can think it's as great as he wants... but he's not going to change our minds and we aren't going to change his.

I think the main issue, is as we've all gotten older (I think even Matt Hardy made this point) is we get into these awesome HBO shows and AMC shows and we want a little more sophistication in the product... and WWE ain't about that. I think there was a time (and no, not the attitude era) when they were. I think it was many moons ago. But wrestling takes a LONGGGG time to move with the times. Soon, Vince will be done, HHH will take over and we'll see what the product looks like then. I actually think the more sophisticated kind of product can be seen in the days of the territories, when it was treated as more of a sport than a spectacle. I personally think they need to treat the product as more of a sport as opposed to trying to make it a variety (three) hour(s) and an action show. Not to say they need to stop with making it a spectacle, it NEEDS to be a spectacle and grandiose, but dial it down about a billion fucking notches. Make it feel more real. Just because everyone knows it's scripted doesn't mean everything needs to seem incredibly scripted. But this is just the broken tape recording. Good t.v. is good t.v. And that doesn't mean 45 minute matches of work rate, that means exciting and fresh title matches, tournaments, feuds and results of feuds that mean something... DARE I SAY continuity in EVERY SINGLE story line.... and hell even having guys intermingle and feud with other guys while they're still feuding with someone else. Guys used to feud for years on end, continuing their feud while other guys came into the mix, but also only wrestling once or twice in that vicinity. Kevin Owens and John Cena wrestled 3 times in like a month. What the actual fuck. make it 6 months, and have different co-mingling feuds go on where both guys win and talk shit on each other and attack each other. It's not complicated.

/ :rant:

Not all forms of entertainment should be the same though.

Why would you cater a show to a more adult audience? Modern sports entertainment for the most part (save the late 90s early 00's) was always geared towards the family, and specifically kids. Its a real life cartoon. What you have is a bunch of people in the 30s and 40s complaining that the show doesnt appeal to them. Its really strange.

When you promote to adults, you get one ticket, when you promote to kids, that kid needs to bring someone to the fights. There's benefits to keeping it that way.

XL

10-05-2015, 01:08 PM

Basically we all need to stop watching.

DAMN iNATOR

10-05-2015, 01:28 PM

Basically we all need to stop watching.

Disagree entirely. They need to find new ways to draw in all demographics to the product, not whichever one they think will line their coffers the most.

Heisenberg

10-05-2015, 01:42 PM

Disagree entirely. They need to find new ways to draw in all demographics to the product, not whichever one they think will line their coffers the most.

They are not budging on shit tho, that's the thing. I'd be content if they gave us back: the right to flip the bird, not take away crowd signs that are offensive, random backstage beatdowns, aggressive promos that are convincing, pee and poop jokes overload, skanks and meaningful stories from all feuds.

There's a built in storyline waiting to happen with WWE having the chance to go back to their uncensored roots and gain back a poopload of fans, but my time on waiting to see it LIVE on RAW is waning.

Damian Rey

10-05-2015, 02:18 PM

Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?

Innovator

10-05-2015, 02:29 PM

Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?
http://i.imgur.com/y2wrkWT.gif

Big Vic

10-05-2015, 02:41 PM

Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?
Haha, was just going to say this.

Big Vic

10-05-2015, 02:42 PM

...However, nobody on the side who thinks Daniel's push was never planned refuses to explain why he went over Cena clean if their were no long term plans for him. I guess Dave Meltzer never addressed that, so that side of the argument cant formulate a response.
dirt Sheets said that Vince was unhappy with the SummerSlam buyrate when it came in so he decided to switch gears.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 03:11 PM

dirt Sheets said that Vince was unhappy with the SummerSlam buyrate when it came in so he decided to switch gears.

Which is why you would build in a contingency plan.

Ive seen WWE depush people when they have no plans for them. I don't think that happened to Bryan. I think they wanted to test how the fans would react to him getting screwed, and they left the door open to get him back in the title picture.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 03:13 PM

Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?

Doesn't get it.

Maybe my attempts at irony are too subtle.

XL

10-05-2015, 06:09 PM

Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?

Let's be fair; he rubbished "dirtsheet" reporters who would use "plans changed" to cover when they weren't spot on with a story...then used it to cover when the story he's concocting doesn't come to fruition.

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-05-2015, 06:18 PM

Not all forms of entertainment should be the same though.

Why would you cater a show to a more adult audience? Modern sports entertainment for the most part (save the late 90s early 00's) was always geared towards the family, and specifically kids. Its a real life cartoon. What you have is a bunch of people in the 30s and 40s complaining that the show doesnt appeal to them. Its really strange.

When you promote to adults, you get one ticket, when you promote to kids, that kid needs to bring someone to the fights. There's benefits to keeping it that way.

Kids like good shows too. Don't be obtuse.

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-05-2015, 06:20 PM

For example, the Simpsons was a massive hit for all members of the family to enjoy throughout the 90s and put forth consistent quality. As per usual, your argument holds zero weight and has nothing to do with anything.

Damian Rey

10-05-2015, 06:20 PM

Not to mention, losing out on the title 3 straight matches, getting pushed down the card, not being in the rumble, an losing again in February clearly left the door open for him to get back in the main event.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 06:40 PM

Let's be fair; he rubbished "dirtsheet" reporters who would use "plans changed" to cover when they weren't spot on with a story...then used it to cover when the story he's concocting doesn't come to fruition.

This kid is going places

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 06:42 PM

Kids like good shows too. Don't be obtuse.

Yeah they do. Hence the continued dominance on cable on Mondays for low these years and years and years and years.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 06:44 PM

For example, the Simpsons was a massive hit for all members of the family to enjoy throughout the 90s and put forth consistent quality. As per usual, your argument holds zero weight and has nothing to do with anything.

But their ratings are off their peak, therefore they must be in terrible shape, no?

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 06:46 PM

Not to mention, losing out on the title 3 straight matches, getting pushed down the card, not being in the rumble, an losing again in February clearly left the door open for him to get back in the main event.

You must have missed the storyline which was the WWE Universe kept voicing their feeling that Bryan should headline despite getting screwed by The Authority. It paid off with that deal in the ring with the fans. Don't know if you remember that. It was kinda critical to the whole journey.

Damian Rey

10-05-2015, 07:02 PM

The fans voicing their opinion wasn't a storyline until they did the yes movement segment. Outside of using it to mock Bryan before dumping him down the card, it was largely ignored. Not to mention, nobody is arguing the road it took to get to Wrestlemania that year. The argument, well, fact really, was that it was completely unplanned and only when Vince's hand was forced in fear of having his main event drowned out with chants for a guy not in the match did the story change course.

To which again I challenge you to answer why Daniel Bryan would lie not only in non company interviews but company produced media about not being scheduled in the main event. He has said it a number of times that he was not the guy until the fans forced him to be. What reason is there to lie about that? It sure doesn't make WWE look good in bringing it public.

#1-norm-fan

10-05-2015, 08:05 PM

Damian, wasn't it you that posted the video of Bryan explaining what the plan for WrestleMania was for him? Seriously, you should just post that in response every time. lol The fact that this is still an argument after that video is beyond ridiculous.

Damian Rey

10-05-2015, 08:23 PM

Indeed it was. I can't imagine or take this CyNick guy seriously when he keeps saying he's "looks at the facts" but has avoided addressing that video.

Mr. Nerfect

10-05-2015, 08:38 PM

Didn't Batista's relationship with the WWE legitimately sour over the Daniel Bryan creative direction that was apparently "planned"?

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 09:20 PM

The fans voicing their opinion wasn't a storyline until they did the yes movement segment. Outside of using it to mock Bryan before dumping him down the card, it was largely ignored. Not to mention, nobody is arguing the road it took to get to Wrestlemania that year. The argument, well, fact really, was that it was completely unplanned and only when Vince's hand was forced in fear of having his main event drowned out with chants for a guy not in the match did the story change course.

To which again I challenge you to answer why Daniel Bryan would lie not only in non company interviews but company produced media about not being scheduled in the main event. He has said it a number of times that he was not the guy until the fans forced him to be. What reason is there to lie about that? It sure doesn't make WWE look good in bringing it public.

How was he forced? Bryan was over for months, even before the build to Mania. He was over when he fought Cena. Hell, he was over the Mania where he fought Sheamus.

Its like some of you guys think Vince couldnt book Bryan down the card.

Here's how Vince completely buried Bryan

Summerslam - main event - beats Cena clean then gets screwed the same night out of the title
Night of Champions - main event - Bryan beats Orton clean
Battleground - main event - No contest with Orton
Hell in a Cell - main event - Loses but only because of a massive screwjob
Survivor Series - semi main event - works with Punk against Wyatts to start new program
TLC - semi main event - continues program with Wyatts
Rumble - continues feud with Wyatt (notice he loses a program to a heel. Would be cool if he were to win the title at Mania, they would have a heel with a built in reason for a program)
Chamber - Main event - (lost but only so they could shoot the angle on TV and maximize TV viewers)
Mania - beats HHH clean AND wins WWE title (Vince accidentally pays off 8 months of a top babyface getting screwed by having him go over on the biggest stage in entertainment).

Vince really screwed up here. Since his goal was to bury Daniel Bryan, he should have just put him with Hornswaggle dressed as a billygoat and called them the GOATs and go after the tag straps. I'm sure he regrets it to this day.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 09:22 PM

Damian, wasn't it you that posted the video of Bryan explaining what the plan for WrestleMania was for him? Seriously, you should just post that in response every time. lol The fact that this is still an argument after that video is beyond ridiculous.

You really think Bryan is going to giveaway legit company secrets while he's still one of the top guys? If thats what you think, cool.

The myth of the whole "YES Movement" that WWE helped cultivate was based on the premise that all of you seem to have bought into, that he wasn't part of the larger plans long term. Yet, there he was at or near the top of the card. Why? I dunno, for shits and giggles I guess.

Damian Rey

10-05-2015, 09:23 PM

Can you please explain why Daniel Bryan lied when he said he wasn't supposed to be in the main event? You keep avoiding that point and it's rather hilarious. If it was supposedly part of the plan why is the main cog involved saying otherwise?

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 09:28 PM

Didn't Batista's relationship with the WWE legitimately sour over the Daniel Bryan creative direction that was apparently "planned"?

Listen, I'mnot doubting that Batista v Orton could have been one of the many options that was considered for Mania.

The rumour as I recall it was I believe Bryan was going to face Sheamus, HHH was to face Punk (who was teaming with Bryan prior to Punk leaving), and Orton vs Batista.

I believe Bryan is not the ideal guy that Vince would want to be champion, but neither was Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero and I seem to recall being at MSG seeing those guys each win half a world title. So every now and then, Vince goes all the way with a guy who doesnt fit his mold. I think its likely the whole Punk-HHH match was going to serve the same purpose that Bryan-HHH did at Mania. To get Bryan into the match. The rumoured Sheamus-Bryan match was just for The Authority to further screw Bryan (even if HHH somehow were to lose to Punk, here's this guy who beat you in 10 seconds who will lay a beating on you). Maybe Batista was never told about that plan. Maybe they knew Batista would be less than thrilled. I keep coming back to, why cocktease with Bryan, if you have no intention of paying it off either at Mania or shortly thereafter.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 09:28 PM

Can you please explain why Daniel Bryan lied when he said he wasn't supposed to be in the main event? You keep avoiding that point and it's rather hilarious. If it was supposedly part of the plan why is the main cog involved saying otherwise?

kayfabe. Ive said it probably ten times in various threads.

Damian Rey

10-05-2015, 09:44 PM

Kayfabe? Lol you mean kayfabe that is regularly broken to the point that it's welcome? Lol what a joke. Kayfabe? Yeah. I'm sure that's what it is. Even though telling people "they planned me to go against Sheamus", revealing a behind the scenes convo, breaks kayfabe. Lmao. You're incredible.

#1-norm-fan

10-05-2015, 09:45 PM

I keep coming back to, why cocktease with Bryan, if you have no intention of paying it off either at Mania or shortly thereafter.

Because bad writers write things really badly.

Or there's a big conspiracy by Bryan and others to make the fans think the writers are bad. Because that's the preferable option to "giving away company secrets".

Call me crazy... The former seems more logical. I DUNNO.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 09:46 PM

Kayfabe? Lol you mean kayfabe that is regularly broken to the point that it's welcome? Lol what a joke. Kayfabe? Yeah. I'm sure that's what it is. Even though telling people "they planned me to go against Sheamus", revealing a behind the scenes convo, breaks kayfabe. Lmao. You're incredible.

not kayfabe like "I'm pretending like its not a work". Kayfabe like we have a story we want the masses to believe (the YES Movement was this thing created by the fans to get Bryan something that wasnt panned).

#1-norm-fan

10-05-2015, 09:47 PM

When you call "conspiracy" you've made it so where even the guy you're talking about saying your wrong isn't sufficient evidence. So there's really no reason to even try at this point.

The CyNick

10-05-2015, 09:47 PM

Because bad writers write things really badly.

Or there's a big conspiracy by Bryan and others to make the fans think the writers are bad. Because that's the preferable option to "giving away company secrets".

Call me crazy... The former seems more logical. I DUNNO.

OR

Vince booked a babyface to get screwed, and then close to Mania set something in motion that gets said babyface in a position to buck the odds and come out shining like a rose.

But nahhh

#1-norm-fan

10-06-2015, 01:39 AM

... and then Bryan and others went out of their way to make the fans think the writers are bad as to not "give away company secrets. That falls under that second option I listed. Jesus Christ, dude...

#1-norm-fan

10-06-2015, 03:15 AM

Just looked at the Raw thread. I'm now convinced this is either a gimmick or CyNick is on the WWE payroll.

Mr. Nerfect

10-06-2015, 05:37 AM

This is gimmick, but I genuinely do think that CyNick thinks he is making sense.

The CyNick

10-06-2015, 12:26 PM

Just looked at the Raw thread. I'm now convinced this is either a gimmick or CyNick is on the WWE payroll.

I think I made three comments in there. One was a terrible joke. The others were just random musings.

Gimmick would be "Hey guys, that was the greatest RAW in the history of the show. Use the hashtag BESTRARWEVER to discuss on social media".

Heyman

10-06-2015, 10:58 PM

Wow,

Looks like I'm the only one that thinks The CyNick is destroying everyone in this thread. :nono:

Sorry guys - I love you all, but CyNick's arguments are far and away more sensical than everyone trying to debate him here........and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

The boards are lucky that CyNick is even posting here (after a 10+ year absence).

His opinions are always welcome in my books (atleast the odd time that I graze the forums).

p.s.____________CyNick's no troll by the way. His thoughts, posts, and analysis' are quite deep. If you guys actually paid attention to him instead of admonishing him, you might actually learn something. Ask guys like Loose Cannon and Rob Harvey if they think CyNick doesn't know what he's talking about. Holy fuck.

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-06-2015, 11:00 PM

I welcome the differing opinion, but they're still wrong

Heyman

10-06-2015, 11:04 PM

I welcome the differing opinion, but they're still wrong

I disagree. I can't find one thing wrong that he's said in this thread.

Granted - I think CyNick should atleast admit that the current WWE product can be improved, but aside from that, everything else he's said in this thread is 100% true.

I hate getting involved in something that I was never really a part of, but this thread has legitimately shocked me. I don't think CyNick has come across as arrogant or whatever at all. Really mind boggling stuff to me. Or are people in this thread just upset that CyNick flat out destroyed people's counter-arguments in this thread?

Weird weird stuff.

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-06-2015, 11:32 PM

I don't think he's arrogant at all to be honest, I quite like the guy. I still think he's full of shit though.

The product is lacking and has been for a long time. His excuses are generally centred around a different demographic than us liking it, but I countered with the fact that good t.v. is good t.v., demographics be damned. Most of his arguments against myself are about the fact that I'm some internet fan, and don't really address the actual points I make.

Believe it or not, I don't really rate Dave Meltzer that highly on his opinions, I think him to be a bit of a blow hard, but I know sht when I see it on my t.v.

Damian Rey

10-06-2015, 11:45 PM

Heyman's stance on CyNick makes no sense when you read his current discussion thread and how CyNick thinks Rollin losing because he's a heel is good, the current roster's lack of stars is because of the performers not stepping up, and the wwe in general being booked just fine.

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-06-2015, 11:49 PM

Heyman mostly likes when someone "goes against the grain" and garners some kind of a reaction. I think there's some good to it, but when the conversations generally go no where it kind of gets silly.

XL

10-07-2015, 12:53 AM

Heyman's stance on CyNick makes no sense when you read his current discussion thread and how CyNick thinks Rollin losing because he's a heel is good, the current roster's lack of stars is because of the performers not stepping up, and the wwe in general being booked just fine.

Yup. Read everything Heyman said in this thread in the same tone as "Facetious Noid" posts, as I'd just read his thread blaming WWE for their own ills.

Damian Rey

10-07-2015, 12:55 AM

Noid's current gimmick will no doubt lead him to a world title run.

DAMN iNATOR

10-07-2015, 01:15 AM

I disagree. I can't find one thing wrong that he's said in this thread.

Granted - I think CyNick should atleast admit that the current WWE product can be improved, but aside from that, everything else he's said in this thread is 100% true.

I hate getting involved in something that I was never really a part of, but this thread has legitimately shocked me. I don't think CyNick has come across as arrogant or whatever at all. Really mind boggling stuff to me. Or are people in this thread just upset that CyNick flat out destroyed people's counter-arguments in this thread?

Weird weird stuff.

Holy shit, guys...I think Heyman's finally gone senile.

Heyman

10-07-2015, 01:33 AM

The most perplexing thing to me in this thread, is CyNick's stance on Daniel Bryan (the correct one I might add), vs. Everyone else's opinions.

At Summerslam 2013, Daniel Bryan didn't just beat John Cena.........he went over the guy cleanly. Period. Then, AFTER all that, we saw the Triple H/Randy Orton screw job on Bryan, along with the birth of The Authority.

How do you guys NOT see that event as the start of a long term angle? (with the obvious intention of Daniel Bryan ultimately going over?!?). Like holy fuck.

Don't get me wrong - I have a lot of respect for many of the posters in this thread (Dale Newstead, Noid, Damien Rey, etc., etc.), but lets face it. You guys flat out tasted CyNick's penis in this thread, and especially this argument.

If the WWE really had zero intention of pushing Daniel Bryan in a massive way, they would NOT have had him go over John Cena cleanly.

If we're operating under the assumption that, "Controversy sells," then do you NOT think that Dave Batista winning the Royal Rumble was one of the most ingenious things that the WWE has ever done? (knowing full well that backlash that would occur amongst both marks AND the IWC).

C'mon people. :nono:

Damian Rey

10-07-2015, 01:38 AM

So why would Daniel Bryan say otherwise in interviews both within and outside the company? CyNick's lame excuse was Bryan was protecting kayfabe, even though speaking about behind the scenes conversations breaks kayfabe.

So what reason does Daniel Bryan have to lie about the original pitch he received pertaining to his mania spot?

Heyman

10-07-2015, 01:41 AM

How was he forced? Bryan was over for months, even before the build to Mania. He was over when he fought Cena. Hell, he was over the Mania where he fought Sheamus.

Its like some of you guys think Vince couldnt book Bryan down the card.

Here's how Vince completely buried Bryan

Summerslam - main event - beats Cena clean then gets screwed the same night out of the title
Night of Champions - main event - Bryan beats Orton clean
Battleground - main event - No contest with Orton
Hell in a Cell - main event - Loses but only because of a massive screwjob
Survivor Series - semi main event - works with Punk against Wyatts to start new program
TLC - semi main event - continues program with Wyatts
Rumble - continues feud with Wyatt (notice he loses a program to a heel. Would be cool if he were to win the title at Mania, they would have a heel with a built in reason for a program)
Chamber - Main event - (lost but only so they could shoot the angle on TV and maximize TV viewers)
Mania - beats HHH clean AND wins WWE title (Vince accidentally pays off 8 months of a top babyface getting screwed by having him go over on the biggest stage in entertainment).

Vince really screwed up here. Since his goal was to bury Daniel Bryan, he should have just put him with Hornswaggle dressed as a billygoat and called them the GOATs and go after the tag straps. I'm sure he regrets it to this day.

I completely agree with this 1000% percent.

The only thing I would have done differently, would be in having Daniel Bryan winning cleanly over Wyatt, and then having Bryan get screwed in the actual Royal Rumble (Bryan enters).

The WWE were lucky that Bryan was 'over' to such a large extent, that losing cleanly to Bray didn't hurt him, but I'm a fan of that type of booking. When you've got a hot star like that, you protect him as much as you can. No reason whatsoever to have Daniel jobbing to Bray.

Other than though, I agree with everything you said.

Heyman

10-07-2015, 01:44 AM

So why would Daniel Bryan say otherwise in interviews both within and outside the company? CyNick's lame excuse was Bryan was protecting kayfabe, even though speaking about behind the scenes conversations breaks kayfabe.

So what reason does Daniel Bryan have to lie about the original pitch he received pertaining to his mania spot?

Honestly, I have no idea. I have no idea if he was protecting kayfabe, or if Daniel Bryan did in fact, feel that way.

What I do know is this: If the WWE actually felt that Bryan was a "B+" player and had no business being anywhere near a main-event, they wouldn't have had him go C-L-E-A-N-L-Y over Cena at Summerslam 2013. Period. There's just no way beating around that bush.

If the WWE really felt that Daniel Bryan was a mid-card performer, and had no intentions of pushing him long term, my best guess is that they would've had Bryan go over Cena in a completely flukey way (i.e. Orton interference?), and then have heel Orton cleanly defeat Daniel Bryan to win the title a month later.

Damian Rey

10-07-2015, 01:51 AM

Except straight from the horse's mouth, he said it wasn't the case. I get it'd be nice to think WWE was able to predict the ridiculous fan backlash to Batista winning the Rumble despite being booked as a face for a month, and that the original plan all along was to push Bryan into the main event.

However, when the subject of the conversation itself states bluntly he wasn't going to main event, there's no argument to be had otherwise. You can assume, or speculate that he'd make the company look like idiots by lying that he wasn't planned to main event, but that's all it is.

Bryan himself said it wasn't the plan. What's there to argue after that?

Emperor Smeat

10-07-2015, 02:08 AM

The main reason Bryan beat Cena cleanly was more due to Cena needing time off and WWE needing a top face to quickly take Cena's spot. Only reason Cena never got his chance to get a win back was because by the time the situation would be ripe for it, Bryan was getting derailed with injuries.

Once Cena came back, Bryan was quickly put to the side and relegated to semi-minor status in the Authority feud. Crowd began to rebell once they saw the WWE didn't really cared for Bryan and wanted the focus on Cena vs Orton/Authority only. Got worse with the rebelling once it became obvious the WWE wanted Batista to get the big win over the Authority and not Bryan at Mania.

Mr. Nerfect

10-07-2015, 11:16 AM

Bryan beating Cena could be seen as many things. A trial, a grace, a good booking decision, an attempt at an immediate ratings spike, Cena needing time off. Granted, I've had the same conspiracy theory in my head before. Maybe, just maybe the WWE worked out that bad booking is the good booking. Maybe that's why they had Sheamus beat him in 18 seconds at WrestleMania 28? Brilliant. Maybe that's why they delayed his eventual rise by two years, despite knowing that his health couldn't have been great going into WrestleMania 31 when the best choice was to have him return and win the Rumble, so they didn't, but still put him in the match and had him drop out like an afterthought.

I'm running my sentences together here, but come on, guys. I love Heyman and do have some love for CyNick the human and the old poster, but the idea that it was a masterplan all along is pretty bullshit. Right down to them booking Orton vs. Bryan together until it couldn't probably ever do business again.

The only other time I had that same conspiracy "bad booking is the good booking" idea is when I saw The New Day start to gain traction as a heel group. No wonder Vince debuted them as bland babyfaces that could never win a match! It was the Rocky Maivia/Rock plan all along! Brilliant.

Then The New Day came out and said Vince legit thought that they would be over as faces. And there are countless other documented examples where Vince has been out of touch with reality. It's not moronic to assume that the WWE fucked up. Especially when you can see how the aftermath of it all affected the WWE's relationships with other performers, such as Batista and CM Punk (regardless of what their own egos had to do with things).

They legitimately sidetracked Bryan from the main feud which they were already dragging out. By the same token, if this were a master plan, the same thing would have been achieved by Dean Ambrose last year when he got pulled out of his feud with Seth Rollins to go against Bray Wyatt. He wasn't going to go away. But Bryan was just un-fuckable at that point.

CyNick's arguments revolve almost entirely around "Look at what happened when the WWE was critically successful! It was criticially successful, right? It must have been planned!" He beat Cena? That was huge. And it was an angle to build to something. No one is saying it wasn't. It's just that no one else is naive enough to give the WWE credit for giving someone a credible reverse push when they can't even push guys successfully.

And what good will it builds for the company to allow the credit of their product to be attributed to a conspiracy theory. It's not like NASA did a real moon landing to stage a fake.

Mr. Nerfect

10-07-2015, 11:18 AM

If the plan was such a brilliant one, why didn't it draw bigger business?

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-07-2015, 11:19 AM

Honestly, I have no idea. I have no idea if he was protecting kayfabe, or if Daniel Bryan did in fact, feel that way.

What I do know is this: If the WWE actually felt that Bryan was a "B+" player and had no business being anywhere near a main-event, they wouldn't have had him go C-L-E-A-N-L-Y over Cena at Summerslam 2013. Period. There's just no way beating around that bush.

If the WWE really felt that Daniel Bryan was a mid-card performer, and had no intentions of pushing him long term, my best guess is that they would've had Bryan go over Cena in a completely flukey way (i.e. Orton interference?), and then have heel Orton cleanly defeat Daniel Bryan to win the title a month later.

Kevin Owens went over John Cena clean and now he's in a middling feud with Ryback after jobbing back cleanly to Cena twice. Bryan certain "got the rub" but it wasn't the kind of positioning fans wanted. They wanted him to be "THE GUY" not some other 50/50 booked guy.

Plus this argument means fuck all anyways.... it's CyNick doing his best ONCE MORE to distract from the actual point. Say they got the Bryan thing right, and it was in the cards all along, that would honest to god be one thing I can think of they got right. They also had Bret Hart win wrestlemania 10 after calling an audible on that, and they proceeded to bungle up his title reign by treating him like a mid carder. Yes, WWE has the capability to do 1 out of every thousand things right, even if they do it in an absolutely horrendous way, and SOME HOW eventually get there. But the other 999 are done pretty badly and it leads to cheap, shoddily done t.v.

In saying that, there's a reason they're the only game in town. They've obviously done a lot of things right along the way, and in certain eras were able to ignite something meaningful. But between those eras and ever since, it's all (minus some shining light) pretty meandering crap. And unfortunately as older wrestling fans, all we have is shitty ring of honor to watch, or we have to watch Japanese wrestling (which I'm not all that into).

Heyman, I believe you'd be able to understand this analogy better than anyone. WWE is like the Toronto Maple Leafs. They are able to put forth an absolutely horrendous product, and not adapt to the current landscape of quality, and still turn a profit. So nothing really changes. And even when it SEEMS thing change, it's only slightly around the corner that the same mistakes will be made, because they don't need to be all that great to turn a profit and to keep making money.

Mr. Nerfect

10-07-2015, 11:24 AM

By the way, for clarification: I never thought CyNick was being arrogant until recently when I saw him insulting the intelligence of people for not getting what he is laying out whilst completely misrepresenting their points. This all happened in other threads. I have no ill-will towards him as a person, and have often expressed my love to him. He certainly injected some life here until his posts became repetitive in their strawman tactics and I now miss a lot of them (sincerely try to read everyone's).

I'm guilty of the same thing towards him, but I am Evil Noid and do whatever the fuck I want.

http://i.imgur.com/4ZA3B27.gif

Mr. Nerfect

10-07-2015, 11:25 AM

Damian Rey is sadly Damian Brooke there, but it's no reflection of his talent.

Mr. Nerfect

10-07-2015, 11:27 AM

Gorgeous Dale Newstorm trained me.

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-07-2015, 12:20 PM

Evil Noid is my boy. I will be his Bobby Heenan esque manager if need be.

Big Vic

10-07-2015, 12:58 PM

"Why would they put someone cleanly over John Cena if they didn't have a long term angle for them?"

"Lets ask Kevin Owens"

Ol Dirty Dastard

10-07-2015, 01:11 PM

see: Dale Newstead's post 3 or so posts before yours :p

Big Vic

10-07-2015, 02:41 PM

I got over excited an posted before reading the whole thread.

XL

10-07-2015, 06:45 PM

So why would Daniel Bryan say otherwise in interviews both within and outside the company? CyNick's lame excuse was Bryan was protecting kayfabe, even though speaking about behind the scenes conversations breaks kayfabe.

So what reason does Daniel Bryan have to lie about the original pitch he received pertaining to his mania spot?

It's like Inception; kayfabe within kayfabe.

Heyman

10-09-2015, 07:19 PM

The main reason Bryan beat Cena cleanly was more due to Cena needing time off and WWE needing a top face to quickly take Cena's spot. Only reason Cena never got his chance to get a win back was because by the time the situation would be ripe for it, Bryan was getting derailed with injuries.

Source?!?! How do you know that this was the case?

Surely - if Cena needed some time off, there were other faces ahead of Bryan on the depth chart. Orton was still a face before the screw job, and CM Punk was a face if I recall correctly. So - why have Bryan go over Cena?

Even if alllllll of what you said is true (which likely isn't), you have to take into account what Anybody Thrilla said:

(i.e. If the WWE realized they fucked up, they made up for it by calling an audible and having Bryan go over at Mania......and so even then, they made things right).

Heyman

10-09-2015, 07:24 PM

If the plan was such a brilliant one, why didn't it draw bigger business?

Sorry guys - limits on my time but I'll try and respond to as many posts as possible.

I would argue that the plan was brilliant, and that the time period between Summerslam 2013 and Wrestlemania 30 was probably the hottest that the WWE had been in years. Not sure if the ratings reflected this at all (haven't checked), but the Daniel Bryan 'Yes!' movement was probably the most over thing that the WWE had in about a decade or so. Daniel Bryan became even more popular after fans (both marks and IWC) perceived him being held back.

Who knows where the business would be today if Bryan's career hadn't been derailed after Mania that year.

Heyman

10-09-2015, 07:49 PM

Kevin Owens went over John Cena clean and now he's in a middling feud with Ryback after jobbing back cleanly to Cena twice. Bryan certain "got the rub" but it wasn't the kind of positioning fans wanted. They wanted him to be "THE GUY" not some other 50/50 booked guy.

Plus this argument means fuck all anyways.... it's CyNick doing his best ONCE MORE to distract from the actual point. Say they got the Bryan thing right, and it was in the cards all along, that would honest to god be one thing I can think of they got right. They also had Bret Hart win wrestlemania 10 after calling an audible on that, and they proceeded to bungle up his title reign by treating him like a mid carder. Yes, WWE has the capability to do 1 out of every thousand things right, even if they do it in an absolutely horrendous way, and SOME HOW eventually get there. But the other 999 are done pretty badly and it leads to cheap, shoddily done t.v.

In saying that, there's a reason they're the only game in town. They've obviously done a lot of things right along the way, and in certain eras were able to ignite something meaningful. But between those eras and ever since, it's all (minus some shining light) pretty meandering crap. And unfortunately as older wrestling fans, all we have is shitty ring of honor to watch, or we have to watch Japanese wrestling (which I'm not all that into).

Heyman, I believe you'd be able to understand this analogy better than anyone. WWE is like the Toronto Maple Leafs. They are able to put forth an absolutely horrendous product, and not adapt to the current landscape of quality, and still turn a profit. So nothing really changes. And even when it SEEMS thing change, it's only slightly around the corner that the same mistakes will be made, because they don't need to be all that great to turn a profit and to keep making money.

I agree with what you're saying Dale, but you guys are also making it sound like it's CyNick's stance that the WWE can't be improved in any shape or form, and that everything they are doing right now is perfect.

I think CyNick is just saying that most fans are actually happy with the current product and that our opinion (IWC) is clearly in the minority. You can't use ratings as a 1:1 indicator since the product is consumed a lot differently in 2015 than say 1999-2005.

Having said all that, I do think the WWE needs to find a way to protect their emerging mid-card talents. Guys like Bray Wyatt, Rusev, Dean Ambrose, Roman Reigns, etc., aren't being maximized in my opinion.

Emperor Smeat

10-09-2015, 07:50 PM

Source?!?! How do you know that this was the case?

Surely - if Cena needed some time off, there were other faces ahead of Bryan on the depth chart. Orton was still a face before the screw job, and CM Punk was a face if I recall correctly. So - why have Bryan go over Cena?

Even if alllllll of what you said is true (which likely isn't), you have to take into account what Anybody Thrilla said:

(i.e. If the WWE realized they fucked up, they made up for it by calling an audible and having Bryan go over at Mania......and so even then, they made things right).
His elbow basically had a baseball-like swell going on at the time. Prior to the match, WWE was pulling him from house shows just so that it wouldn't get worse and let the Summerslam match be possible.
http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/john-cena-elbow.jpg
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1735895-report-john-cenas-elbow-injury-worse-that-thought

CM Punk had just recently turned face and was busy with the Lesnar feud at the time while Orton likely was turning regardless of Cena's health status. Bryan winning the belt just made it a lot more convenient for the turn to happen with the cash-in right there.

The only real wildcard was how long Cena would be out since he has freakishly fast recovery and him wanting to be back as soon as possible. Think the WWE or Cena released videos of him training almost right after getting surgery. Once he actually came back, quickly replace Bryan as the focus of Authority and WWE title feuds.

The CyNick

10-09-2015, 10:00 PM

I disagree. I can't find one thing wrong that he's said in this thread.

Granted - I think CyNick should atleast admit that the current WWE product can be improved, but aside from that, everything else he's said in this thread is 100% true.

I hate getting involved in something that I was never really a part of, but this thread has legitimately shocked me. I don't think CyNick has come across as arrogant or whatever at all. Really mind boggling stuff to me. Or are people in this thread just upset that CyNick flat out destroyed people's counter-arguments in this thread?

Weird weird stuff.

Thanks dude. You're a good man.

In all honesty there are plenty of things I see on WWE TV that are not what I would book or want to see. There are times guys are pushed that I dont agree with. However I just look at the show as a whole, and this is just my opinion here, but I found WWE to be much more enjoyable when I stopped reading dirt sheets. And I firmly believe if you dont like something, you should stop watching. That sends a bigger message. But for some reason people prefer to complain than just sit back and enjoy WWE for what it is.

The CyNick

10-09-2015, 10:05 PM

Heyman's stance on CyNick makes no sense when you read his current discussion thread and how CyNick thinks Rollin losing because he's a heel is good, the current roster's lack of stars is because of the performers not stepping up, and the wwe in general being booked just fine.

Booking is never perfect. I do however think WWE is far and away the best at it, so when they make a collective decision on a talent, I trust their judgment. But when I say something like that, it gets twisted into "WWE is perfect".

But I do honestly believe the talent is vastly inferior today than anytime in the history of sports entertainment. I dont know if its a by product of no competition, the whole thing about the millennium generation being uninspired to reach for success, or a combination of a bunch of things.