Survivor Series 11/20/16: Fantasy Warfare, Bragging Rights, and a Lucha Thing

[#1-norm-fan]

And why are people still trying to discuss things with TheCyNick in a serious manner? As if Goldberg literally pulling his balls out and teabagging Brock Lesnar for 20 minutes to end the PPV wouldn't be met with a CyNick post about how same sex relationships are "in" and Vince McMahon is once again proving what a genius he is by having homosexuality main event a PPV.

I will warn you again, guys... dun do it.

[BigCrippyZ]

Have you ever seen a real fight? Sometimes one guy is dominant.

No shit.

It's called suckering someone in though. In a scripted scenario it provides more to the story than just "1 guy is dominant." Which doesn't really make sense given his talk of "this is my last match" bullshit. I don't want to pay (and thankfully I didn't) to watch 1 guy who hasn't been in a ring in 12 years dominate another in 30 seconds. It's not entertaining and is pigeonholing to everyone involved. The better option is "Sure, I haven't been in the ring in 12 years, but I just fooled your ass and now I own you Lesnar."

Instead of making Lesnar look like he simply just wasn't a match for Goldberg physically, (which is what happened) in my scenario Goldberg looks like he's just on equal footing (both physically and maybe even beyond mentally) with Lesnar. Way more places to go and definitely more interesting in the moment, especially if the announcers can sell it. You can easily have Goldberg taunt Lesnar about how he suckered him in and then beat him physically. It brings a whole new dimension to both their characters and the feud.

[BigCrippyZ]

And why are people still trying to discuss things with TheCyNick in a serious manner? As if Goldberg literally pulling his balls out and teabagging Brock Lesnar for 20 minutes to end the PPV wouldn't be met with a CyNick post about how same sex relationships are "in" and Vince McMahon is once again proving what a genius he is by having homosexuality main event a PPV.

I will warn you again, guys... dun do it.

For my own entertainment damnit! :rant: :lol:

[slik]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="tl" dir="ltr">Brock Lesnar....... hahahahahaaaaaaahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahhahahahahahah ahahahahahahahha</p>&mdash; Rusev MACHKA (@RusevBUL) <a href="https://twitter.com/RusevBUL/status/800683563716907008">November 21, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Volare]

Ru Ru knows what's up.

[Big Vic]

I mean but Rusev.... you never win matches.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Guys. Honestly, what in the hell are you complaining about? Have you seen a Goldberg match?

This is that point where internet smarks become too whiney. Honestly, who gives a shit. They actually did something surprising and the fans ate it up.

We could lament that someone else didn't get the Lesnar rub, but I for one would not give a fuck if say Seth Rollins or Sami Zayn beat Lesnar. They wouldn't know how to book it anyways.

Yeah there's problems with the direction, but just enjoy something for what it is. You got something different lastnight and in itself was a big moment.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

If Goldberg had a 10 minute match with Lesnar where Lesnar busted him up everyone would be wondering why the hell they bothered bring Goldberg in. Honestly, the reaction here is dumbfounding.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Would you have rather he came in and steamrolled Seth Rollins? Or jobbed to Seth Rollins? Or AJ?

Now THAT would be fucking stupid. Brock is essentially untouchable, this doesn't hurt him in the least. It's essentially two guys cancelling one another out and people get their big nostalgia moment.

There's a reason SD vs RAW was like an hour.

[Evil Vito]

The only thing people know how to do on the internet is bitch.

[Ruien]

Much rather have Brock vs Goldberg 3 than Brock vs Shane.

[Ruien]

Would you have rather he came in and steamrolled Seth Rollins? Or jobbed to Seth Rollins? Or AJ?

Now THAT would be fucking stupid. Brock is essentially untouchable, this doesn't hurt him in the least. It's essentially two guys cancelling one another out and people get their big nostalgia moment.

There's a reason SD vs RAW was like an hour.

Seth Rollins is going to be the next megastar dammit.

Lol at the people really thinking/wanting AJ or Owens to be the one going over Brock.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

The only thing people know how to do on the internet is bitch.

Yeah and then bitch about other people who are bitching.

[Triple A]

I'm With Dale Newstead

[slik]

I liked the main event(s)

[#1-norm-fan]

Lol at the people really thinking/wanting AJ or Owens to be the one going over Brock.

The fact that that is such a laughable thought is the point I was making earlier. The full time roster is INSANELY far away from these guys. Doesn't exactly bode well for the future because they sure as hell aren't gonna be getting any rubs from them. Lesnar has made the current roster his bitch. Goldberg looks even a league above HIM now. Meanwhile you've got these amateurs below both of them like "But we have titles tho! We're good, rite?"

[Ruien]

This is like a tune up before we get to the rumble. Vince wants to ensure we didn't forget how to whine before Reigns wins the RR.

[Ruien]

The fact that that is such a laughable thought is the point I was making earlier. The full time roster is INSANELY far away from these guys. Doesn't exactly bode well for the future because they sure as hell aren't gonna be getting any rubs from them. Lesnar has made the current roster his bitch. Goldberg looks even a league above HIM now. Meanwhile you've got these amateurs below both of them like "But we have titles tho! We're good, rite?"

To be fair, WWE had Reigns in their position but the crowd refused to accept it. Rollins is the only other long shot to possibly get on their level.

No one else has the physical structure to make it believable. Maybe Wyatt. Hell no to Balor, Owens, and AJ though.

[#1-norm-fan]

Well Reigns is just awful. And Rollins has no shot. He doesn't have the personality to be that "larger than life". He's always gonna be just some dude.

[#1-norm-fan]

As far as the physical structure, there was this guy who had just the right look a couple years ago who was murdering jobbers and then moved on to the main event and was getting massive reactions and they fucked up in epic fashion.

[Destor]

What perplexes me is you guys think Lesnar "gave his rub to Goldberg" as if Lesnar now has no value. Rediculous.

[Ruien]

As far as the physical structure, there was this guy who had just the right look a couple years ago who was murdering jobbers and then moved on to the main event and was getting massive reactions and they fucked up in epic fashion.

Ryback baby! Maaan that as terrible.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Don't feed me Ryback Member Berries.

[#1-norm-fan]

I agree that anyone who thinks Lesnar has no value now is crazy.

However, anyone who thinks getting fucking destroyed like he did doesn't bring down his mystique at all is fucking nuts.

[Big Vic]

We could lament that someone else didn't get the Lesnar rub...They wouldn't know how to book it anyways.
Agreed, but let's at least try.

[Destor]

I agree that anyone who thinks Lesnar has no value now is crazy.

However, anyone who thinks getting fucking destroyed like he did doesn't bring down his mystique at all is fucking nuts.
Completely depends on where they go from here. 1 chapter in a story is meaningless when you dont know the ending.

[#1-norm-fan]

They ended Taker's streak to build up Lesnar as unstoppable so that he could put over Taker. Forgive me if I don't have much hope for WWE's foresight and ability to build for the future.

[Destor]

They ended Taker's streak to build up Lesnar as unstoppable so that he could put over Taker. Forgive me if I don't have much hope for WWE's foresight and ability to build for the future.Dunno about that. They built lesnar up so they'd have one guy with credibility on their roster. And thats worked out very well for them.

[Destor]

As long and they dont feed Goldberg to anyone else there's no issue here

[#1-norm-fan]

They should feed Goldberg to Hogan. Then Hogan to Rock. Then Rock to Austin. Then Austin to Brock. While AJ Styles and Dean Ambrose fight for the world title in a match no one cares about in comparison.

[Big Vic]

Goldberg will probably job to Taker at Mania then both will retire.

Brock jobs to Shane so Shane can get the W back he was supposed to get at last mania.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Except that Goldberg is considerably older than Brock. Beating Brock clean by pin should have been saved for guy with a future.

[Destor]

They should feed Goldberg to Hogan. Then Hogan to Rock. Then Rock to Austin. Then Austin to Brock. While AJ Styles and Dean Ambrose fight for the world title in a match no one cares about in comparison.Yeah AJ and ambrose should be fighting it out for the IC title. no doubts there. Weird they have the belts on midcarders but thats the world we live in now.

[#1-norm-fan]

Seriously, Goldberg should probably just get another title run. Makes no sense not to do it if he's gonna be around a while. It didn't make sense for Lesnar not to be champion all this time.

[Destor]

Except that Goldberg is considerably older than Brock. Beating Brock clean by pin should have been saved for guy with a future.
Brock is totally capable of having meaningful clean losses in the future. He isnt buried at all. It'll be ok, I promise.

[Big Vic]

Yeah AJ and ambrose should be fighting it out for the IC title. no doubts there. Weird they have the belts on midcarders but thats the world we live in now.

AJ deserves the WWE title now, he pinned Cena twice.

[Destor]

AJ deserves the WWE title now, he pinned Cena twice.
lol, except its a work and who he beats doesnt mean shit next to who is the most over. The only reason he is at the top is because the draws work part time

[#1-norm-fan]

Except that Goldberg is considerably older than Brock. Beating Brock clean by pin should have been saved for guy with a future.

I agree but like Ruien said earlier, there are no guys at that level. They would have to build up one of the younger guys for a bit first and once he's there, have that be the win that pushes him over the top. I don't think WWE is capable of building a young guy up to that level though. It would take consistently good, careful booking without the 50/50 bullshit. Not exactly their strong point.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

AJ is over. Most loudest chants of the PPV except for 10. Tye Dillinger is the most over guy now. :0

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I agree but like Ruien said earlier, there are no guys at that level. They would have to build up one of the younger guys for a bit first and once he's there, have that be the win that pushes him over the top. I don't think WWE is capable of building a young guy up to that level though. It would take consistently good, careful booking without the 50/50 bullshit. Not exactly their strong point.

Nakamura.

[#1-norm-fan]

Nakamura would have to actually go to the main roster for a while though and get some credibility going there. And that's where the problem lies.

[Rammsteinmad]

It'll be interesting to see what the PPV buys/views were for this event (or however it's measured now, with the Network and all).

If Goldberg did in fact turn out to be as big a draw as they're making him out to be, I'd be down with Goldberg vs. Lesnar III at Wrestlemania, under two conditions...

1. That these are the only "part time megastar" attractions. No Undertaker matches. No Triple H. Let these two bring in the casual fans/big feel to the event, and then dedicate the rest of the roster (the workhorses) who can put on the best performances to showcase what WWE is all about.

2. It's the Goldberg/Lesnar match we want to see (but still haven't). Not 20 minutes of test of strengths, and not a 80 second squash. A ten minute brawl of the two of them just tearing into each other with utter savage fury.

That could play to both of their strengths. It'll give the "big" feel to Wrestlemania, and will give the rest of the roster a chance to shine.

Sadly, what we'll probably get, is that match, an Undertaker match with 20 minute entrances, a Triple H match with 20 minute gimmick entrances, and then guys like Ambrose, Cesaro, Owens, Zayn and all the others thrown into the Andre the Giant Battle Royal.

[Destor]

AJ is over. Most loudest chants of the PPV except for 10. Tye Dillinger is the most over guy now. :0
Canadian crowds dont count and you know it. Neither do Chicago or Philly crowds.

[#1-norm-fan]

Canadian crowds dont count and you know it. Neither do Chicago or Philly crowds.

If they did then ROH would probably be putting WWE out of business right now.

[Rammsteinmad]

Other than the main event, the PPV itself was pretty solid. The main Survivor Series match was great, although my only nitpicking is that I always hate how people never really try to break up pins in these matches until it's down to the final four people.

And the red and blue t-shirts.

[Big Vic]

lol, except its a work and who he beats doesnt mean shit next to who is the most over. The only reason he is at the top is because the draws work part time
AJ Styles is the most over person on SDL, John Cena hasn't been there for about 2 months.

[broverboard]

No issue with the way Goldberg won from me. I fully expect a Heyman promo about nothing being more dangerous than a wounded beast leading to a rematch that Brock wins. I see the booking of the main event as a win win for WWE. Loads of buzz around Goldberg heading into the Rumble and when Brock does get his win back he looks even more dominant. I don't get the whole argument about Goldberg being a 50 year old man because that's a 50 year old man that could beat anyone I know.

Only disappointment for me was American Alpha's showing. Overall, I personally really enjoyed the show. Looking forward to where things go next, especially with Bray and Orton. Strowman looked dominant as well and didn't seem out of place IMO.

[Ruien]

It'll be interesting to see what the PPV buys/views were for this event (or however it's measured now, with the Network and all).

If Goldberg did in fact turn out to be as big a draw as they're making him out to be, I'd be down with Goldberg vs. Lesnar III at Wrestlemania, under two conditions...

1. That these are the only "part time megastar" attractions. No Undertaker matches. No Triple H. Let these two bring in the casual fans/big feel to the event, and then dedicate the rest of the roster (the workhorses) who can put on the best performances to showcase what WWE is all about.

2. It's the Goldberg/Lesnar match we want to see (but still haven't). Not 20 minutes of test of strengths, and not a 80 second squash. A ten minute brawl of the two of them just tearing into each other with utter savage fury.

That could play to both of their strengths. It'll give the "big" feel to Wrestlemania, and will give the rest of the roster a chance to shine.

Sadly, what we'll probably get, is that match, an Undertaker match with 20 minute entrances, a Triple H match with 20 minute gimmick entrances, and then guys like Ambrose, Cesaro, Owens, Zayn and all the others thrown into the Andre the Giant Battle Royal.


HHH needs/should put Rollins over at Mania.

[Big Vic]

Great broverboard, now we can have 50/50 Booking.

[broverboard]

I generally agree with you on 50/50 booking Big Vic, however I don't see it as a big issue in this instance as I know Goldberg isn't around in the long run so this only drives the short term story with Lesnar forward.

I'm not suggesting I'd like to see this for guys like Rollins, Styles, Owens etc.

[Destor]

AJ Styles is the most over person on SDL, John Cena hasn't been there for about 2 months.
Exactly, he's the most over on a show that has no main eventers.

[Mercenary]

I'm With Dale Newstead

[KIRA]

As long and they dont feed Goldberg to anyone else there's no issue here

.......He's gonna get destroyed by Roman Reigns.

[Wishbone]

I'll admit that after it all sunk in I felt a bit weird about Goldberg squashing Brock, but when it happened live I legit marked out in a way I haven't in a very long time. I have no doubt that this'll end badly because it's WWE after all, but the moment itself was pretty damn exciting.

[Destor]

.......He's gonna get destroyed by Roman Reigns.
We'll see
I'll admit that after it all sunk in I felt a bit weird about Goldberg squashing Brock, but when it happened live I legit marked out in a way I haven't in a very long time. I have no doubt that this'll end badly because it's WWE after all, but the moment itself was pretty damn exciting.:y:

[The CyNick]

And why are people still trying to discuss things with TheCyNick in a serious manner? As if Goldberg literally pulling his balls out and teabagging Brock Lesnar for 20 minutes to end the PPV wouldn't be met with a CyNick post about how same sex relationships are "in" and Vince McMahon is once again proving what a genius he is by having homosexuality main event a PPV.

I will warn you again, guys... dun do it.

You clearly don't know my politics.

I criticize when is warranted. If I found the shows to provide me with little to no joy I would find other things to do with my time. I certainly wouldn't act like trolls on message boards pretending everything sucks. I'm just too busy and my time is too valuable for that.

[Big Vic]

Exactly, he's the most over on a show that has no main eventers.So he should have the title since he is the most over.

[Big Vic]

AJ is a main eventer though, so is Randy Orton.

(No one else is though)

[The CyNick]

No. I'm saying everyone on the full time roster is so far from the part time guys on the credibility/overness scale that it's hilarious that they're even presented on the same show as "equals". Brock Lesnar made the entire roster his bitch for years and passed all that credibility on to Bill Goldberg while some guys about a million miles down the roster are fighting for "company/brand superiority". lol

Ahhh I see your point.

I think it's a fair criticism. My counter is that I think it's important to have some guys who are unique and can make the tentpole shows seem even more special. When you see guys every month, 12 months of the year, it's harder to make a couple of those matches seem more special than the others. It's nice to have the part timers to intermingle with the regular talent or just create mega matches like the one at Survivor Series.

I can see how guys on the everyday roster may be upset by that. But in this business you need to keep some guys strong to maintain their aura.

[The CyNick]

No shit.

It's called suckering someone in though. In a scripted scenario it provides more to the story than just "1 guy is dominant." Which doesn't really make sense given his talk of "this is my last match" bullshit. I don't want to pay (and thankfully I didn't) to watch 1 guy who hasn't been in a ring in 12 years dominate another in 30 seconds. It's not entertaining and is pigeonholing to everyone involved. The better option is "Sure, I haven't been in the ring in 12 years, but I just fooled your ass and now I own you Lesnar."

Instead of making Lesnar look like he simply just wasn't a match for Goldberg physically, (which is what happened) in my scenario Goldberg looks like he's just on equal footing (both physically and maybe even beyond mentally) with Lesnar. Way more places to go and definitely more interesting in the moment, especially if the announcers can sell it. You can easily have Goldberg taunt Lesnar about how he suckered him in and then beat him physically. It brings a whole new dimension to both their characters and the feud.

There's multiple ways to skin a cat.

For me, coming out of the show, I feel like they did the best match for everyone involved. Brock hasn't liked vulnerable in years, Goldberg looked better than he ever has. Makes me wonder what is next for both guys. I'm far more interested in RAW this week vs if they had done an 18 minute brawl.

As for the early finish, I guess I'm just used to it because Ive watched so much boxing and MMA. If you did, you would know someone can be KO'd quickly and come back and still be great. Put another way, imagine you could work a Mike Tyson return to boxing. Would you book him to KO someone fast like the good ol days or would you want him to have a plodding back and forth 12 round battle with the current champ? I would book the fast KO and then tell the story of redemption for the ex champ and ride the wave of nostalgia for Tyson.

[Destor]

So he should have the title since he is the most over.
No they should book a main eventer on their show instead

[The CyNick]

If Goldberg had a 10 minute match with Lesnar where Lesnar busted him up everyone would be wondering why the hell they bothered bring Goldberg in. Honestly, the reaction here is dumbfounding.

Dale knows what's up

[Big Vic]

No they should book a main eventer on their show instead

He is a main eventer.

[The CyNick]

The fact that that is such a laughable thought is the point I was making earlier. The full time roster is INSANELY far away from these guys. Doesn't exactly bode well for the future because they sure as hell aren't gonna be getting any rubs from them. Lesnar has made the current roster his bitch. Goldberg looks even a league above HIM now. Meanwhile you've got these amateurs below both of them like "But we have titles tho! We're good, rite?"

The whole rub theory is overrated.

Did Hogan get a rub from Bob Backlund? Did Austin get a rub from Hogan? Did Cena get a rub from Austin?

This is that millennial mindset where there's always an excuse for your own shortcomings. All of the guys I mentioned just went out and dominated their peers, and they got over. The problem with the current roster is you have too many guys who just do what is expected of them and hope magically they will get over.

Even earlier this year, Austin put his chin out to Ambrose hoping he would put him in his place, and instead Ambrose "respectfully disagreed" with him and went away with his tail tucked between his legs.

With social media, these guys have plenty of chance to get themselves over, but instead they wait for the script and hope it has something good on it for them. If not, just fire up shake it off on the way to the next town.

[The CyNick]

I agree that anyone who thinks Lesnar has no value now is crazy.

However, anyone who thinks getting fucking destroyed like he did doesn't bring down his mystique at all is fucking nuts.

You should study UFC buys

[Ruien]

Cena received a huge rub from Angle and JBL. JBL was the best Smackdown had to offer when Cena stepped in the main event too before anyone says JBL is not a big name.

[The CyNick]

They ended Taker's streak to build up Lesnar as unstoppable so that he could put over Taker. Forgive me if I don't have much hope for WWE's foresight and ability to build for the future.

They had Lesnar beat Taker to create a moment and to establish Lesnar as a monster. He ran the show for the next year. So yeah, they did build to the future.

[The CyNick]

I agree but like Ruien said earlier, there are no guys at that level. They would have to build up one of the younger guys for a bit first and once he's there, have that be the win that pushes him over the top. I don't think WWE is capable of building a young guy up to that level though. It would take consistently good, careful booking without the 50/50 bullshit. Not exactly their strong point.

50-50 booking is bullshit?

Again, study UFC buys.

Is NXT dead because Joe and Nak traded wins?

[#BROKEN Hasney]

That was probably top to bottom the most dull PPV in recent memory. Main event was kinda cool for the shock factor, but not caring about Goldberg coming in, I don't really care where it goes from here.

Just hoping Smackdown is good for a month now it's free from cross branded booking again.

[Ruien]

But they need to build someone up to be at Lesnar/Goldberg level. You can't do that losing to Owens every other month.

[The CyNick]

It'll be interesting to see what the PPV buys/views were for this event (or however it's measured now, with the Network and all).

If Goldberg did in fact turn out to be as big a draw as they're making him out to be, I'd be down with Goldberg vs. Lesnar III at Wrestlemania, under two conditions...

1. That these are the only "part time megastar" attractions. No Undertaker matches. No Triple H. Let these two bring in the casual fans/big feel to the event, and then dedicate the rest of the roster (the workhorses) who can put on the best performances to showcase what WWE is all about.

2. It's the Goldberg/Lesnar match we want to see (but still haven't). Not 20 minutes of test of strengths, and not a 80 second squash. A ten minute brawl of the two of them just tearing into each other with utter savage fury.

That could play to both of their strengths. It'll give the "big" feel to Wrestlemania, and will give the rest of the roster a chance to shine.

Sadly, what we'll probably get, is that match, an Undertaker match with 20 minute entrances, a Triple H match with 20 minute gimmick entrances, and then guys like Ambrose, Cesaro, Owens, Zayn and all the others thrown into the Andre the Giant Battle Royal.

If I were booking a rematch where Lesnar was to win, I would book the exact same match, only Brock counters the Jack Hammer into an F5 and wins.

[The CyNick]

HHH needs/should put Rollins over at Mania.

Personally, I would have Hunter go over. He put over Reigns strong, he needs a win. Unless they did something where The Shield got together and took him out.

[Ruien]

No. This should be HHH's last match for like 3 years. Rollins has lost to Balor and Owens constantly for the past 6 months it seems. Rollins officially kills HHH (credibility wise) and then starts his climb to the main event again.

[Innovator]

Member when Conor McGregor's drawing ability vanished after losing to Nate Diaz?

[Destor]

He is a main eventer.Well once he starts maining shows that have main eventers on it I'll believe you

[Big Vic]

Personally, I would have Hunter go over. He put over Reigns strong, he needs a win. Unless they did something where The Shield got together and took him out.

You need to walk the line better, when you say things like this you are obviously trolling.

[The CyNick]

No. This should be HHH's last match for like 3 years. Rollins has lost to Balor and Owens constantly for the past 6 months it seems. Rollins officially kills HHH (credibility wise) and then starts his climb to the main event again.

Fair point about Rollins losing a lot. I dunno, he's not a believable top babyface to me. I wouldn't waste a HHH loss to him.

I think HHH as a viable piece still has legs, and you know he's not going anywhere. I don't think Rollins is the future of the company. Give Rollins a visual pin, but have someone cost him the match and let Rollins program with that guy.

[Big Vic]

Well once he starts maining shows that have main eventers on it I'll believe you

He main evented Backlash and pretty much every SDL episode.

[The CyNick]

Member when Conor McGregor's drawing ability vanished after losing to Nate Diaz?

Oooo oooo I member. And member when Couture Liddell 3 did 85k buys?

[The CyNick]

You need to walk the line better, when you say things like this you are obviously trolling.

I'm serious though. I just don't think Rollins has the IT factor. I don't even think I would bother booking HHH vs Rollins at Mania.

[Big Vic]

HHH can lose to Rollins then get his heat back by destroying Ziggler.

[Big Vic]

All top names should get their heat back by destroying ziggler.

[KIRA]

Personally, I would have Hunter go over. He put over Reigns strong, he needs a win. Unless they did something where The Shield got together and took him out.

HHH needs to win? for what? At this point he gains nothing by winning

[The CyNick]

Rollins reminds me of Ziggler. Better from a character development, but similar.

[#1-norm-fan]

Damien Sandow is pretty great all around, too. Tons of charisma. Got pretty fucking over.

... So naturally, instead of keeping him featured at some point during the 5 hours of "A show" TV they produce weekly, they quickly blew off his feud on Raw and now he's jobbing to NXT guys in dark matches.

Brilliant.

You've been watching sports entertainment for a long time right? Do you REALLY think Sandow had the tools to headline?

This is the guy some of you are trying to have a serious, non-trolly conversation with right now. Guys... Seriously... Dun do it.

[The CyNick]

HHH needs to win? for what? At this point he gains nothing by winning

While true he doesn't really gain, I don't think you can have him lose year after year and still expect people to care about his rare appearances.

Imagine you didn't hate HHH. Imagine Rock came back for two straight Manias and lost them both. It would hurt his appeal for future matches.

As I said, I just wouldn't use HHH in a match this year. I think they'll have enough with Goldberg abs Taker in the mega match spots.

[Emperor Smeat]

That was probably top to bottom the most dull PPV in recent memory. Main event was kinda cool for the shock factor, but not caring about Goldberg coming in, I don't really care where it goes from here.

Just hoping Smackdown is good for a month now it's free from cross branded booking again.

Biggest mistake was not taking the extra 30 minutes and using most of it for the Tag and Women's Survivor Series matches. The Men's one was great because it got a lot of time to set up a pace before starting the eliminations and story telling.

The other two SS matches felt rushed which shouldn't have been the case with the extra hour the WWE had to work with.

[#1-norm-fan]

Was looking for the exchange where he literally responded to someone saying "No one is saying Seth Rollins shouldn't be losing to Cena, he just shouldn't be CONSTANTLY losing to Cena." And he literally replied with "What's wrong with losing to Cena?" I had to give up looking for it though. My time is too valuable.

[Destor]

He main evented Backlash and pretty much every SDL episode.
LOL exactly

[The CyNick]

This is the guy some of you are trying to have a serious, non-trolly conversation with right now. Guys... Seriously... Dun do it.

Out of all the things I've posted here for the past year plus, this is the best you could come up with to prove I'm trolling.

By the way, is Sandow injured? I didn't see him on Survivor Series. Guy with his tool set must be headlining by now, right? Oh he's out in the cold on the indy scene? Hmmm looks like I was right about him.

Santino was over as a comedy character, doesn't mean he should be a headliner.

[Big Vic]

Imagine you didn't hate HHH. Imagine Rock came back for two straight Manias and lost them both. It would hurt his appeal for future matches. Rock could get his heat back by beating Dolph Ziggler.

[The CyNick]

Biggest mistake was not taking the extra 30 minutes and using most of it for the Tag and Women's Survivor Series matches. The Men's one was great because it got a lot of time to set up a pace before starting the eliminations and story telling.

The other two SS matches felt rushed which shouldn't have been the case with the extra hour the WWE had to work with.

I agree on the tag. The women are not deep enough talent wise to tell a story for that long. I think part of the deal was they wanted to make it look like the match was going a certain length based on the time it started.

[Big Vic]

LOL exactly

AJ is also better than every full time guy on Raw.

[#1-norm-fan]

Santino was over as a comedy character, doesn't mean he should be a headliner.

Santino was over as a comedy character, doesn't mean he should be a headliner.

Santino was over as a comedy character, doesn't mean he should be a headliner.

Guys... guys... seriously, guys...

[The CyNick]

Was looking for the exchange where he literally responded to someone saying "No one is saying Seth Rollins shouldn't be losing to Cena, he just shouldn't be CONSTANTLY losing to Cena." And he literally replied with "What's wrong with losing to Cena?" I had to give up looking for it though. My time is too valuable.

What is wrong with CONSTANTLY losing to Cena.

The goal is to get in the ring with Cena. When you get that chance you have to prove you're superior to him. I've never seen Rollins outshine Cena at anything.

[#1-norm-fan]

Damien Sandow is pretty great all around, too. Tons of charisma. Got pretty fucking over.

... So naturally, instead of keeping him featured at some point during the 5 hours of "A show" TV they produce weekly, they quickly blew off his feud on Raw and now he's jobbing to NXT guys in dark matches.

Brilliant.

You've been watching sports entertainment for a long time right? Do you REALLY think Sandow had the tools to headline?

This is the guy some of you are trying to have a serious, non-trolly conversation with right now. Guys... Seriously... Dun do it.

Out of all the things I've posted here for the past year plus, this is the best you could come up with to prove I'm trolling.

By the way, is Sandow injured? I didn't see him on Survivor Series. Guy with his tool set must be headlining by now, right? Oh he's out in the cold on the indy scene? Hmmm looks like I was right about him.

Santino was over as a comedy character, doesn't mean he should be a headliner.

Santino was over as a comedy character, doesn't mean he should be a headliner.

Santino was over as a comedy character, doesn't mean he should be a headliner.

Guys... guys... seriously, guys...

[The CyNick]

Guys... guys... seriously, guys...

Do you not think guys run their course? I would say Sandow was good at being an opening card comedy act, it got old, he couldn't take his game to the next level, so at some point you move on.

[KIRA]

While true he doesn't really gain, I don't think you can have him lose year after year and still expect people to care about his rare appearances.

Imagine you didn't hate HHH. Imagine Rock came back for two straight Manias and lost them both. It would hurt his appeal for future matches.

As I said, I just wouldn't use HHH in a match this year. I think they'll have enough with Goldberg abs Taker in the mega match spots.

I don't hate HHH.

I agree the deck is plenty stacked and they don't need him.

There are certain wrestlers for whom losing does not hurt I'd argue that's where HHH is now

[Destor]

AJ is also better than every full time guy on Raw.Well im sure he'll drag them out of this slump any day now them

[#1-norm-fan]

AJ is also better than every full time guy on Raw.

Better how?

[The CyNick]

I don't hate HHH.

I agree the deck is plenty stacked and they don't need him.

There are certain wrestlers for whom losing does not hurt I'd argue that's where HHH is now

Maybe. I just think at some point they become irrelevant. To me part of what makes Hunter unique is that even as a heel, he's a credible out. If he loses year after year without beating someone relevant, that aura lessens. You always want a win over HHH to be special. That's why I was big on Hunter besting Sting.

[Big Vic]

SDL is improving in the ratings each week.

--------------

Sandow was never going to be a headliner with the gimmicks he had.

[Big Vic]

Better how?

I can't think of one way he is not better than the guys on the raw brand.... Raw is so weak right now.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

SDL is improving in the ratings each week.

--------------

Sandow was never going to be a headliner with the gimmicks he had.

He's not a Top Guy.

[The CyNick]

I can't think of one way he is not better than the guys on the raw brand.... Raw is so weak right now.

I personally think Reigns is better, but Styles has impressed me since coming in.

[Big Vic]

Reign is probably booked better but he's probably the worst on the mic out of the top guys.

[The CyNick]

Reign is probably booked better but he's probably the worst on the mic out of the top guys.

He's no Rock on the mic, but when kept short he's okay. I just feel like he understands how to carry himself like a main event guy. Guys like Rollins and Owens don't. They get caught up in trying to be the best in the ring and it hurts their presentation.

But everyone has flaws.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Reigns has a lot of natural charisma. When he talks freely outside of the ring, he's pretty great. The scripted bullshit they give him holds him wayyyy back.

I don't understand why they didn't take the learning's from The Rocks initial face push, turn him and then have the face push when the crowd turns. But when you look at the lack of top faces, I guess they had to.

[Rammsteinmad]

A win over Triple H doesn't really do anything for anyone these days. Triple H is a legend in the realm of WWE, but nobody outside of WWE gives a fuck about who Triple H is (certainly not on the level of guys like The Rock and Brock Lesnar). Hell, Roman Reigns beat him, and I feel like 95% of my work colleagues would still have no idea who Roman Reigns is... and that hasn't stopped Reigns from being a "credible" main eventer.

Triple H being at Wrestlemania only benefits Triple H's ego.

Seth Rollins' is already a bonafide main eventer. A win over Triple H isn't gonna launch him into a whole new level, coz wrestling just isn't as popular as it was in 1999. The best use of guys like Rollins' now (in my opinion anyway), is to book him in a match with someone whom he can really put on a stellar match with, because with the mainstream appeal Wrestlemania will get (and a match like Lesnar/Goldberg 3 will draw in), it'll showcase the product in a better light.

[Big Vic]

Scripted bullshit really holds everyone back, More so Reigns. Although if Reigns was heel now I'd say his booking would be perfect, he comes off as arrogant on the mic which would really fit his character if the would go full heel on him.

[Rammsteinmad]

He's no Rock on the mic, but when kept short he's okay. I just feel like he understands how to carry himself like a main event guy. Guys like Rollins and Owens don't. They get caught up in trying to be the best in the ring and it hurts their presentation.

But everyone has flaws.

Like all the times Rollins and Owens failed the wellness policy.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

To be fair to Goldberg, 13 years off and his spear is still better than Reigns. Although Reigns was trying to match it by giving Shane a concussion as hard as Goldberg did to Bret.

[KIRA]

Maybe. I just think at some point they become irrelevant. To me part of what makes Hunter unique is that even as a heel, he's a credible out. If he loses year after year without beating someone relevant, that aura lessens. You always want a win over HHH to be special. That's why I was big on Hunter besting Sting.

He has beaten more than enough people (and Sting) to this point where I doubt even three straight losses would hurt him at all. Besides HHH's thing isn't that he is supposed to be unbeatable its that he is ruthless.The interest in Hunter isn't really in winning IMO its how obsessed and dangerous he is when he loses that is when he is interesting.

[Sixx]

i just watched it. not even half a cigarette.

[KIRA]

Reigns has a lot of natural charisma. When he talks freely outside of the ring, he's pretty great. The scripted bullshit they give him holds him wayyyy back.

I don't understand why they didn't take the learning's from The Rocks initial face push, turn him and then have the face push when the crowd turns. But when you look at the lack of top faces, I guess they had to.

Right. I hate to say it but he was on Conan and my reaction was "where has this Roman Reins been?

Just as an example though Dean Ambrose is so far above insults like "bonehead" Its embarrassing to watch him have to parrot that garbage.

[Wishbone]

Why y'all acknowledging CyNick? It's not a real person. I thought we all realized that it was just a glob of Vince McMahon's toe-jam that somehow gained sentience and the ability to use a computer.

[Stickman]

Goldberg is the only credible threat to Lesnar. They stand eye to eye, both big muscular juicy men who look like they can destroy anybody. Seriously, have either of them stand toe to toe with any champion on the roster and they will make the champs look like little boys. These two are throwbacks to juiced to the gills beasts, the thpe of guys who people want to watch destroy each other. I now fully understand Vince's obsession with big men, the look alone sets them above the rest.

[#1-norm-fan]

Super juicy men.

[Savio]

Hard juicy men.

[Wishbone]

Goldberg is the only credible threat to Lesnar. They stand eye to eye, both big muscular juicy men who look like they can destroy anybody. Seriously, have either of them stand toe to toe with any champion on the roster and they will make the champs look like little boys. These two are throwbacks to juiced to the gills beasts, the thpe of guys who people want to watch destroy each other. I now fully understand Vince's obsession with big men, the look alone sets them above the rest.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eTykY2B0kEY?list=FLD29_Tak-ALU8Aq7OTCiWVA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[The CyNick]

Why y'all acknowledging CyNick? It's not a real person. I thought we all realized that it was just a glob of Vince McMahon's toe-jam that somehow gained sentience and the ability to use a computer.

Wait is that how people see me in here? Really puts things into perspective. Maybe I should just leave.

[The CyNick]

He has beaten more than enough people (and Sting) to this point where I doubt even three straight losses would hurt him at all. Besides HHH's thing isn't that he is supposed to be unbeatable its that he is ruthless.The interest in Hunter isn't really in winning IMO its how obsessed and dangerous he is when he loses that is when he is interesting.

I like seeing him win more often than not so his moniker of King of Kings has more bite to it.

[Destor]

Goldberg is the only credible threat to Lesnar. They stand eye to eye, both big muscular juicy men who look like they can destroy anybody. Seriously, have either of them stand toe to toe with any champion on the roster and they will make the champs look like little boys. These two are throwbacks to juiced to the gills beasts, the thpe of guys who people want to watch destroy each other. I now fully understand Vince's obsession with big men, the look alone sets them above the rest.

QFT

[Stickman]

Vince has a juicy big man fetish. Now I understand why. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[#1-norm-fan]

So juicy, those men.

[Cool King]

• I can see it being revealed that Natalya was the one who attacked Nikki as a way to get on the team and we'll see a Nikki/Natalya feud begin.

Also, I will say that I'm a sucker for anything that's black and blue. I think it's the best colour combination so seeing Alexa Bliss in a black and blue attire was just....

https://s22.postimg.org/tw3ltfl8h/ezgif_com_323fd13390.gif

As for the match itself, I was really hoping to see a SmackDown win as in my opinion, it has the superior Women's Division. I don't get why Naomi was the one to be counted out but Nia Jax tapped out? I thought that Nia Jax would be the one to be counted out, which in the process would keep her strong.

I think it sucked that Bliss was eliminated the way she was and now we can all look forward to a Charlotte/Bayley feud over the title now. Yay.

• I really thought Zayn would win but I'm so happy he didn't. The way Miz won was classic Miz & Maryse but I'm at the point now where someone getting screwed in Canada (or any reference to that well-known night) gets no reaction from me and I just think "This again".

• Raw Tag Teams vs SmackDown Tag Teams now and I'm just at the point now where I never have a single clue what the hell Enzo talks about when he's on the mic. What he talks about sounds like complete nonsense to me and I find it hard to follow what he's saying. I get the feeling he makes a lot of "pop culture references" and that's why I have no idea what he's talking about.

He kept talking about a "Starboy" and it took me a while to realise that he was talking about the name of the album (and a song) from the guy who sings the theme song for Survivor Series this year. (at least I think that's it)

Rhyno looks crazy clean shaven but also slightly younger. He also reminded me of my Primary 6 & 7 teacher.

Seeing the teams all together really showed that SmackDown has the better division. The match itself got off to a horrible start with Breezango only lasting 45 seconds, but The New Day only lasting around a minute was actually really surprising. The match got off to a bad start but it did get better as time went on.

I was happy to see the The Shining Stars last as long as they did. After what happened with Breezango, I was expecting the same thing to happen to The Shining Stars. Also, American Alpha were really good in the match and they should really stick to the attire design they had. It's so much better that their "Space Design" or whatever it is. The latter just makes them look like jobbers, whereas what they wore last night made them look "legit". (as the kids would say)

Although the match was good, I wasn't really pleased with the result. I felt that Cesaro & Sheamus winning was just a massive shit on the Tag Team Division of both brands. With Cesaro & Sheamus winning and being the sole surviving team, it felt like the message being sent out was "These two guys who hate each other and were randomly thrown together eight weeks ago, are better than nine legitimate tag teams, including two Tag Team Champions".

Now, it wouldn't be that much of a problem if they were champions, as being so would make them legitimate too. That's why it works for Rhyno & Slater. However, I feel they may become champions tonight on Raw.

• Cruiserweight time and I like both guys but this match just seemed to drag. I get the feeling that the majority of fans don't give a shit about the Cruiserweight Division anymore and the division itself has been pretty much a failure.

Also, fuck Baron Corbin. Seriously. He sucks. He's boring as all shit.

More things that don't make sense with his appearance though, as he hurt himself and is off the SmackDown team because of it, so Shane takes his place but Corbin shows up fit and healthy on the night? OK.

• I can see why Owens wears black, as it's said that black is "slimming". Owens wearing red just showed how fat he truly is. The whole slimming thing does work, but with Owens, not all that well.

I was surprise to see Ambrose be the first eliminated but it's cool that it took around fifteen minutes to happen. These guys are main eventers and shouldn't be getting eliminated around five minutes in, one after the other like what usually happens. I felt that the vast majority of the match was Shane getting his ass handed to him and his elimination was insane. It looked like he was concussed or KO'd or something, and I was glad to see him walk out and not be stretchered out.

The Shield reunion to powerbomb AJ was cool, but before it, for some reason, Reigns proclaimed he hated the Spanish Announce Team, or maybe he just meant all Latinos in general. I had a feeling SmackDown would win when Harper showed up. If I'm not mistaken, Orton has never lost a Traditional Survivor Series match and has always been one of the last men (or last man) standing at the end.

The match overall was actually really entertaining and it felt like it went on forever, which was actually good.

• Lesnar/Goldberg was just one big advertisement for a shitty game. Hats off to both men though. They must be laughing their way to the bank after making so much money for only one minute and twenty-five seconds of work.

But really, I can see this leading to Lesnar/Goldberg III at either Royal Rumble or (most probably) WrestleMania.

Also, what's with Goldberg's kid? Every time we've seen him, he looks like he really doesn't want to be there or that he's just really bored.

Overall, Raw won the night 3-2. Terrible.

[The CyNick]

Reigns has a lot of natural charisma. When he talks freely outside of the ring, he's pretty great. The scripted bullshit they give him holds him wayyyy back.

I don't understand why they didn't take the learning's from The Rocks initial face push, turn him and then have the face push when the crowd turns. But when you look at the lack of top faces, I guess they had to.

A lot of people said Cena was really lame when he ditched the Wigger gimmick and started reppin Hustle Loyalty Respect. As much as Cena gets booed, he also garners the biggest babyface reaction from the kids. I think the hope with Reigns was he would fill that spot. Problem is I don't think he connects with the kids as well as Cena does.

WWE is good at listening to their audience and reacting. If they don't see Reigns is moving merch, they will turn him heel. I still think he's got a bright future as a babyface. They just have to stay the course and the fans will follow. And if they don't, then you pivot.

[Ruien]

The thing is, Cenas base is now hitting their teenage years. They are no longer 6 years old. They are rebellious now so Reigns can't rely on them to cheer him.

[Innovator]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0Hly2Hj0xyBvN1hm/giphy.gif

[Mr. Nerfect]

No. I'm saying everyone on the full time roster is so far from the part time guys on the credibility/overness scale that it's hilarious that they're even presented on the same show as "equals". Brock Lesnar made the entire roster his bitch for years and passed all that credibility on to Bill Goldberg while some guys about a million miles down the roster are fighting for "company/brand superiority". lol

This is why you are the best. :love:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Well Reigns is just awful. And Rollins has no shot. He doesn't have the personality to be that "larger than life". He's always gonna be just some dude.

Reigns is a heel. If they had him turn and he started talking about all the pussy he gets being the Top Guy, he'd be amazing. Bring in The Revival as his bag-carrying henchmen. If Kurt Angle can past a physical, bring him back with American Alpha and have them feud for a few PPVs. Whatever. There's hope there.

I worry you are right about Rollins. The opportunity to turn him was when he returned, but the guy doesn't have the ego to be a true top star. Rock, Austin, etc. would tell Vince "I wouldn't do it that way, I'd do it this way." Rollins is like the most determinedly pushed utility guy they've ever had. He's brilliant in the ring, and there is a quiet charisma about the guy -- he can structure a promo even if he's not exactly the most bombastic personality they've got. In a perfect world, they'd have Jeff Hardy to feud with him, building to a Ladder Match over a mid-card title.

He's never going to be a Rock, Cena or Austin mold babyface. They need to look to those workhorse babyfaces/the high-flyers and work out a way to get him over like that. I'm still predicting Owens vs. Rollins vs. Balor for the RAW "World" Title at WrestleMania (like sixth match from the top), and I can see them getting there by giving the Rumble in San Antonio to Rollins. He's going to be in that main event mix in the same way that Edge and Randy Orton were for years, despite them being a bit "soft." You will buy it, dammit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Am I the only one that's not excited for Triple H vs. Seth Rollins at all? The match doesn't have any...oomph behind it.

For one, we've seen Triple H vs. Seth Rollins interact as parts of The Shield and Evolution respectively. Secondly, Rollins has been booked terribly. He wants Triple H's approval more than anything, and the incident that spawned the face turn wasn't followed up on. It's cold and a dead issue. Thirdly, I don't think Rollins gets much from a win, to be honest. Roman Reigns beat Triple H at Mania this year. Triple H has the wrong context to help Rollins, because Rollins is supposed to already be in the title picture. Triple H will be wrestling, and his opponent should be someone that's character gets to new heights because they managed to beat The Game. It should be someone that's never been a champion before. You'd be booking Rollins down to move him up to somewhere behind where he currently is.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

HHH vs anybody doesn't do it for me.

The last time he was interesting was against Daniel Bryan.

[Ruien]

I am excited because Rollins will bring the laugh back when HHH comes back.

[Stickman]

I am usually not a fan of the flipity small wrestlers and was completely expecting him to fail, but AJ Styles is a main eventer. He can make everyone he wrestles look like a million bucks. Aside from his mom hair, he just has "it."

Roman Reigns has a great physique, looks good and is athletic, in he ring he is very average. Not once has he made his opponent look good. On the mic he is very cringe worthy, his delivery of promos is ungenuine. He doesn't have "it."

[The CyNick]

This is why you are the best. :love:

Better get hitched while you can. The Supreme Court will be changing soon.

[hb2k]

Just to drop this in here, the latest Squared Circle Gazette Radio is now up, as we talk about a huge weekend of shows for WWE! Discussing the ins and outs of NXT TakeOver: Toronto and the 2016 Survivor Series, we break down every match and talk all the big issues currently going on, including the shocking finish to Lesnar Vs. Goldberg, issues with champions on the show, struggling divisions, some great wrestling, and debating a litany of possible directions between now and WrestleMania. And as always, we get some of your thoughts about the happenings of one of WWE's bigger weekends of the year. Check it out and let us know what you think!

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/eca3rh/SCG_Radio_105_-_NXT_TakeOver_Survivor_Series_and_Beyond.mp3

[Mr. Nerfect]

I am usually not a fan of the flipity small wrestlers and was completely expecting him to fail, but AJ Styles is a main eventer. He can make everyone he wrestles look like a million bucks. Aside from his mom hair, he just has "it."

Roman Reigns has a great physique, looks good and is athletic, in he ring he is very average. Not once has he made his opponent look good. On the mic he is very cringe worthy, his delivery of promos is ungenuine. He doesn't have "it."

Reigns has got an engine on him. He's just a natural heel and is playing against his charisma.