this years wrestlemania is MAKE IT OR BREAK IT for the WWE

[Shadow]

Here's what I don't understand moron. How can you like shit? Seriouslly. that's what the WWE product is right now. Utter and compleat shit. And I'm going to use my fav example.

Matt Hardy/Edge. That was a storyline that was written for them. Edge and Matt have real life heat of the magnitude that it defies logic. I'm pretty sure they don't like each other nowadays but they do tolorate each other at Supershows. There was a storyline where nothing had to be done to make it better. What did the WWE do? Fuck it up royally. And I mean fucked it up royally by making the blow-off match not matter and screwing Matt hard. After that Summerslam match, which I watch, I didn't give a shit because the two of 'em just got so watered down that I just didn't care. The WWE didn't care. I started watching more and more TNA. Nowadays, I just don't care about the WWE. I don't even click the Smackdown spoilers. I don't even care if I miss RAW. and why? Because I don't want to have to eat shit. But you do.

You do boy. And for you to go around telling us that the TRUTH is we're not REAL wrestling fans.....you hurt your own argument with that fact son. Grow up and realize we're not going to stomache crap if crap is all that's being put out there.

[Goulet]

Don't you ever in your life undermind me, I don't give a shit who your parents made you believe you are. I'll take your negative rep with a grain of salt equal to that of a 6 year old calling me a dork and let it slide. But under no circumstance have you garnered enough respect from me to even consider saying what you said and expect it to be taken remotely serious. Do you understand me?

Are you threatening me over a fucking internet message board? What may I ask would you do if I decided to "undermind" you? Fuck off loser!

[Vermaat]

All of WCW's stars weren't old... WCW just only pushed the older already established stars


All of WCW's EMPLOYEES weren't old. But the majority of the old guys were stars.

They weren't listening to their fans too much... THEY WEREN'T LISTENING AT ALL!!! Were the fans crying out for David Arquette to win the World Title?! Or for Vince Russo to win it?! FUCK YOU ARE IGNORANT!!!



People like celeberties that's why WCW did that. People also like Boss Vs Wrestlers that's why WCW did that. They were listening to the fans, it is just that when the fans see what they want, they began to see how bad it is and then they say they never wanted it. If u guys ran the WWE you would be out of business quickly.

The Fans didn't want the nWo back... WCW went back to the nWo because it had worked in the past... which was a common practice in WCW and still is in WWE, just because something worked before doesn't mean it will again. Hence WWE attempting to bring back the nWo in 2002.


The fans liked the nWo so WCW made the mistake of thinking that they would like them AGAIN and they didn't. But wCw was stupid and that's why WWE crushed them. Lets face it, if WWE was not there, WcW would still be around.

Again I will state, people who stopped watching after the Attitude era didn't grow out of it! They weren't FAKE fans! The quality of programming WWE was putting out after the Attitude Era ended has dramatically decreased and the ratings and buyrates reflect that. I'll simplify it for you


You're right they didn't grow out of it because they were never real fans of it. The quality did not decrease, it changed. WWE saw that the people were leaving and then changed the programming. WWE saw that all these guys who liked hardcore matches and "cool" stuff left, so they started showing more technical matches and have Benoit and Eddie as champ. That's lower quality? The quality of matches today is way better then in Attitude.

Don't encourage this Moron... how can you be a fucking Heel on a message board? He's a fucking Troll

I'm not a moron, heel, troll or a face. Putting a label on me to make your argument seem more right won't work because I don't fit labels. I know you guys try real hard to fit whatever label you came up with and that's why you conform to whatever new trend, but I don't.

So you being a John Cena fan doesn't make your arguments biased TOWARDS Cena?


It can, but I am not allowing that bias to affect my arguments.

I must commend him, he actually made up enough lies so that we could write a fairy tale about rotten apples, breaking things, and someone who one little boy thought was the greatest and believed in him even though no one else did.


I did not make up any lies. Everything I said was derived through factual information, logic or relevant OBSERVATION (

You know, rather than respond to every single stupid thing you've said again, I'm just going to use this one statement by you as an example as to how full of shit you truly are. First off, you admit that you didn't watch the DVD's. BUT in order to justify your bullshit in a previous argument after someone has thrown a hard UNDISPUTABLE fact in your face...you're now going to disagree with what the WWE ACTUALLY SAID and make up your own theory ONCE AGAIN to try and set your feeble mind at ease. In case you're wondering, the key words in your argument are "I did not watch them" and " I guess". This AUTOMATICALLY eliminates your argument from being a fact! This is what you have been doing the entire thread. Now you've stooped to the level of being "psychic" and knowing what WWE "really" meant in their statement. Now not only are you twisting reality, you're twisting facts provided by your precious WWE...all in an effort to cover your own bullshit. You're caught red handed Vermaat, try to justify that.

I used what is called logic to arrive at that conclusion. Why would the WWE rub in the face of their employee that they beat him in business?

I did not say that this was a fact, it was just something I derived from logics and it works out that WWE wouldn't want to upset a current employee.

Here's what I don't understand moron. How can you like shit? Seriouslly. that's what the WWE product is right now. Utter and compleat shit. And I'm going to use my fav example.

Matt Hardy/Edge. That was a storyline that was written for them. Edge and Matt have real life heat of the magnitude that it defies logic. I'm pretty sure they don't like each other nowadays but they do tolorate each other at Supershows. There was a storyline where nothing had to be done to make it better. What did the WWE do? Fuck it up royally. And I mean fucked it up royally by making the blow-off match not matter and screwing Matt hard. After that Summerslam match, which I watch, I didn't give a shit because the two of 'em just got so watered down that I just didn't care. The WWE didn't care. I started watching more and more TNA. Nowadays, I just don't care about the WWE. I don't even click the Smackdown spoilers. I don't even care if I miss RAW. and why? Because I don't want to have to eat shit. But you do.

You do boy. And for you to go around telling us that the TRUTH is we're not REAL wrestling fans.....you hurt your own argument with that fact son. Grow up and realize we're not going to stomache crap if crap is all that's being put out there.

It's your miss here. You are missing out on the build up to Wrestlemania, the biggest PPV. How you can enjoy TNA is beyond me. I mean, their champion doesn't even appear on every show, they have an overexposed Jeff Jarrett and they lack main event star power.

The hardy edge storyline makes sense. Edge has a bigger potential to be a big star then matt that's why he won the feud. Simple.

[Shadow]

No...I'm not missing out on anything. The biggest build-up they've had is Mickee and Trish...and that's a sub fued.

Oh, and if you can't tell by the avatar, I don't watch TNA for Jeff Jarrett. Get that through your pointy skull and keep eating the shit the WWE feeds you.

[Vermaat]

Another reason the ratings have dropped is simple, the internet.

More people now have internet then in the attitude era and it lowers the ratings because, shows get spoiled before airing and storylines are often revealed online before they happen so people get bored and see it as predictable and stop watching. I think the internet played a role in low ratings

[Shadow]

So the internet is ruining the WWE? I guess that can be a bit beliveable. But the other reason that ratings are down is because the WWE is shit.

And I don't know about you but I don't like shit. But hey, if you do, more power to you.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Your original statement:
WCW could not handle the competion because all of their top stars were OLD...

Your rebutal to someone proving your statement was false:
All of WCW's EMPLOYEES weren't old.

You are full of shit and run yourself in circles like a dog chasing his tail.




People like celeberties that's why WCW did that. They were listening to the fans, it is just that when the fans see what they want, they began to see how bad it is and then they say they never wanted it.

Are you kidding me? You admit that you didn't watch WCW, but yet you have this crystal ball that "magically" told you what it's fans wanted? You are a joke.



The fans liked the nWo so WCW made the mistake of thinking that they would like them AGAIN and they didn't.

So you say that WCW was pitiful and got crushed by WWE....but yet, how pitiful is WWE to retry that gimmick A THIRD TIME? Is that what you call "genius"? There's nothing more lazy and unoriginal! Once again, you contradict your argument with your own mouth. Do you see a trend developing here?



You're right they didn't grow out of it because they were never real fans of it.

Uhhh, another contradiction...and all in one goddamn sentance no less!


The quality did not decrease, it changed.

Do you even know what that means? It makes no sense. That's like saying someone who has suffored brain damage hasn't had a decrease in the quality of their life, it's just "changed."


It can, but I am not allowing that bias to affect my arguments.

No need...delusions, ignorance and stupidity have that covered.



I did not make up any lies. Everything I said was derived through factual information, logic or relevant OBSERVATION

Just so you know the difference, that's a lie.



I used what is called logic to arrive at that conclusion. Why would the WWE rub in the face of their employee that they beat him in business?

WWE: "Paul Heyman was responsible for the demise of ECW."

Vermaat: "I know that's what they said, but logically...in order to cover my own ignorant ass...they must have meant something else. BECAUSE I CAN'T ADMIT THAT I WAS WRONG!"

That isn't called "logic" you moron, that's called you being "full of shit."

And by the way, WWE/Vince rubbed it into the face of Eric Bischoff on the air every chance they got. That's half the reason they hired him. So there's a MAJOR hole in your "logic". Bad example.

I did not say that this was a fact, it was just something I derived from logics and it works out that WWE wouldn't want to upset a current employee.

Yes, you moron. WWE is SO CONCERNED about not wanting to upset a current employee. One word for you...Eddie.

No, the "fact" is that WWE actually ADMITS...ON FILM...that Paul Heyman was the one who destroyed ECW. PAUL HEYMAN. That is the fact. Your whole problem is that you take actual documented "facts" and "derive" alternate explanations from your own fucked up sense of "logic"....respit this shit out, and then claim your version to be fact. The only one that believes your own bullshit is you...and as I have proved, you even contradict and confuse yourself. Just stop.

[Kalyx triaD]

Are you threatening me over a fucking internet message board? What may I ask would you do if I decided to "undermind" you? Fuck off loser!

You're obviously a child pretending to be a boy. You couldn't handled my words for a little while before you reacted like a chimp on acid. Stay out of this, I find this battle most interesting.

And yes; I was threatening you over a fucking internet message board. Whatcha gonna do about it?

[The Optimist]

Stay out of this, I find this battle most interesting.

:rofl: its a battle

[Skippord]

Kalyx triaD is a huge nerd

[Kane Knight]

Don't encourage this Moron... how can you be a fucking Heel on a message board? He's a fucking Troll

It's Kalyx Triad we're talking about. One of the most incoherrent pieces of shit to grace the internet.

[Kane Knight]

And yes; I was threatening you over a fucking internet message board. Whatcha gonna do about it?

Demand your personal info and charge you with assault?

[Kalyx triaD]

Demand your personal info and charge you with assault?

Yikes.

And fuck you, BTW.

[Kane Knight]

Sorry, I'd address fuckwit up there, but really, he's trying to pass off lies as fact. I don't think there's anything I could do to destroy his argument that he hasn't done already...

...But one thing does come to mind...If WWE's so successful, why is WM make it or break it?

[Kane Knight]

Yikes.

And fuck you, BTW.

You had me at Hello.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Sorry, I'd address fuckwit up there, but really, he's trying to pass off lies as fact. I don't think there's anything I could do to destroy his argument that he hasn't done already...

...But one thing does come to mind...If WWE's so successful, why is WM make it or break it?

That's the million dollar question. Basically, all the longwinded fiction that Vermaat has spewed out of his ass totally contradicts his original point in the thread. Ironic? Maybe. Jackassic? Definitely.

Here's Vermaat in mid debate:

http://www.az.com/~katrinat/whacko/images/whale.jpg

[Vermaat]

You are full of shit and run yourself in circles like a dog chasing his tail.


The two statements are different and don't contradict each other. One statement was that top WCW wrestlers were OLD. True. The second statement is that no all of their EMPLOYEES were OLD. True. There is a difference between top stars and employees. All of the top card was OLD, but not all of the bottom card. The problem you guys have is that you don't read carefully here.


Are you kidding me? You admit that you didn't watch WCW, but yet you have this crystal ball that "magically" told you what it's fans wanted? You are a joke.


I didn't watch WCW, but I've talked to fans of WCW at school back then and I knew the general feeling of people. Besides, fans of WCW weren't that different from fans of WWE. It is pretty easy to deduce what they wanted without being one.

So you say that WCW was pitiful and got crushed by WWE....but yet, how pitiful is WWE to retry that gimmick A THIRD TIME? Is that what you call "genius"? There's nothing more lazy and unoriginal! Once again, you contradict your argument with your own mouth. Do you see a trend developing here?


I never said that WWE never makes mistakes. WWE made a mistake by bringing back the nWo. They should have brought back DX.

Uhhh, another contradiction...and all in one goddamn sentance no less!


Where is that contradiction? They did not grow out of it, they simply moved on to something cooler. Growing out of something means it was kiddy and didn't fit your demographic. A true fan can grow out of something if it changed it's demographic enough. But they were not true fans and thus did not grow out of it, they just ABANDONDED IT

Do you even know what that means? It makes no sense. That's like saying someone who has suffored brain damage hasn't had a decrease in the quality of their life, it's just "changed."


That is an extreme case. The type of programming changed. That doesn't mean it got worse.

No need...delusions, ignorance and stupidity have that covered.


Ah, I see you have found your flaws.

Just so you know the difference, that's a lie.


A lie is something that is not a truth. What I have said is a truth.

WWE: "Paul Heyman was responsible for the demise of ECW."

Vermaat: "I know that's what they said, but logically...in order to cover my own ignorant ass...they must have meant something else. BECAUSE I CAN'T ADMIT THAT I WAS WRONG!"

That isn't called "logic" you moron, that's called you being "full of shit."

And by the way, WWE/Vince rubbed it into the face of Eric Bischoff on the air every chance they got. That's half the reason they hired him. So there's a MAJOR hole in your "logic". Bad example.


He was responsible. It is not a lie to say that. But he was just one of the factors responsible, the other was WWE. Without WWE, ECW might still be here if there was no competitor like the WWE. There are no excuses, it was the WWE that ultimately put them out, even if it was due to mistakes of their owners. If the owners made the same mistakes but there were no WWE, they might still be around !!!

As far as Eric Biscoff is concerned, WWE didn't really rub in that they put him out of business. They mentioned it, but mostly it was not a fact that they would remind everyone of all the time. It was mostly, Biscoff being treated as a regular heel.

Yes, you moron. WWE is SO CONCERNED about not wanting to upset a current employee. One word for you...Eddie.

No, the "fact" is that WWE actually ADMITS...ON FILM...that Paul Heyman was the one who destroyed ECW. PAUL HEYMAN. That is the fact. Your whole problem is that you take actual documented "facts" and "derive" alternate explanations from your own fucked up sense of "logic"....respit this shit out, and then claim your version to be fact. The only one that believes your own bullshit is you...and as I have proved, you even contradict and confuse yourself. Just stop.


Not upset too much. I am sure they cleared the eddie storyline with his family and rey. I don't see why you people need to make a monster out of the WWE. It is not a monster. Just because it is succesfull doesn't make it so. Of course Heyman had a hand in why ECW went out of business, he was running it, but like I said, without WWE, it wouldn't happen. The competion of the WWE pressured down on top of Heyman leading him to destroy his business.

It is not an alternative explanation. It is logic. Something you seem to lack !!!

...But one thing does come to mind...If WWE's so successful, why is WM make it or break it?

Because WWE is on the right road now. If they make the wrong choices at Wrestlemania they will STRAY off the right road. It won't lead to their downfall most likely, but it will BREAK them off the right road and put them on the road that can lead to DESTRUCTION.

[KillerWolf]

Sorry, I'd address fuckwit up there, but really, he's trying to pass off lies as fact. I don't think there's anything I could do to destroy his argument that he hasn't done already...

...But one thing does come to mind...If WWE's so successful, why is WM make it or break it?

yeah, what about it, varmint?

[Vermaat]

yeah, what about it, varmint?

I just answered that.

Pro Tip : The refresh key updates information in the current explorer window.

[diothoir]

Because WWE is on the right road now. If they make the wrong choices at Wrestlemania they will STRAY off the right road. It won't lead to their downfall most likely, but it will BREAK them off the right road and put them on the road that can lead to DESTRUCTION.

Does this road also lead to DESTRUCITY?

[Vermaat]

Does this road also lead to DESTRUCITY?

It would if they do something stupid like hiring the ultimate warrior.

[Skippord]

I just answered that.

Pro Tip : The refresh key updates information in the current explorer window.
Negative Rep Message:I disapprove of your post

[Xero]

Because WWE is on the right road now. If they make the wrong choices at Wrestlemania they will STRAY off the right road. It won't lead to their downfall most likely, but it will BREAK them off the right road and put them on the road that can lead to DESTRUCTION.
So when, exactly, did they come back from being broken? Because if they're on the right road now, that implies that they were on the wrong road before. And if they were on the wrong road before, that would also mean that the WWE SUCKED at some point (otherwise they would have never had to be on any road as they have been perfect ever since they were created).

So, this would imply, at the end of the (other) road, that you thought the WWE sucked at one point. And so, you aren't a REAL WWE fan because you thought they sucked at some point, and true wrestling fans don't think the WWE sucks, according to you.

[Kane Knight]

Because WWE is on the right road now. If they make the wrong choices at Wrestlemania they will STRAY off the right road. It won't lead to their downfall most likely, but it will BREAK them off the right road and put them on the road that can lead to DESTRUCTION.

LOL.

This PPV cannot make or break them if they are as successful as you claim.

[Funky Fly]

:lol: Also I wonder how the hell this topic made it to 7 pages without being closed
McDoogle and friends think I am too harsh, so have your fun.

[Vermaat]

So when, exactly, did they come back from being broken? Because if they're on the right road now, that implies that they were on the wrong road before. And if they were on the wrong road before, that would also mean that the WWE SUCKED at some point (otherwise they would have never had to be on any road as they have been perfect ever since they were created).

So, this would imply, at the end of the (other) road, that you thought the WWE sucked at one point. And so, you aren't a REAL WWE fan because you thought they sucked at some point, and true wrestling fans don't think the WWE sucks, according to you.

WWE was on the wrong road when they had JBL as champ and did not have a clear superstar to identify with the generation and a superstar to build the company around for the future years to come. When JBL was champ, this was it, the WWE was on the wrong road.

Does this mean WWE sucked? Not really. It meant they were on the wrong road, and okay, it did mean they sucked a little in some areas. But, WWE gave the title to Cena and went back on the right road. That doesn't mean they were sucking and you seem to misunderstand what I meant. I never said WWE never makes mistakes. They do. When JBL was champ, WWE was on the wrong road. There were other things going on that were right and entertaining, so they weren't sucking on the whole, but of any of those things were changing, they could have gotten to a point where they sucked. They did not.

Also, I never said a true wrestling fan would still watch the WWE becaus even though the main event was faltering and they were ON the wrong road, they were not sucking per se. This is why TRUE wrestling fans would continue to watch for the things that didn't suck and support the company.

LOL.

This PPV cannot make or break them if they are as successful as you claim.

I already explained how it can lead them onto a wrong road.

[Kalyx triaD]

Know what I miss? Flipping between WWF and WCW during their commercial breaks on Monday. Watching ECW late Saturday night. Rinse/Repeat, week after week. Maybe some WCW Saturday Night action, take in some of that new Sunday Night Heat. WCW Wednesday Night Thunder's cool (or was it Thursday). Man, all those options. It was good to be a wrestling fan...

[Vermaat]

Know what I miss? Flipping between WWF and WCW during their commercial breaks on Monday. Watching ECW late Saturday night. Rinse/Repeat, week after week. Maybe some WCW Saturday Night action, take in some of that new Sunday Night Heat. WCW Wednesday Night Thunder's cool (or was it Thursday). Man, all those options. It was good to be a wrestling fan...

Yeah but the bad thing was that you didn't have enough time to watch all of that :( But I do miss having all of that and the arguments I had in school of WWF vs WCW. Those were always fun, makes me think I should've watched more WCW but I was too much of a WWF fan then.

[Kalyx triaD]

Yeah but the bad thing was that you didn't have enough time to watch all of that :( But I do miss having all of that and the arguments I had in school of WWF vs WCW. Those were always fun, makes me think I should've watched more WCW but I was too much of a WWF fan then.

Don't know if you understood what I was conveying. Still, I think a true wrestling fan would find entertainment in both shows instead of being too much of a WWF fan. As is your words.

What say you?

[Kane Knight]

I already explained how it can lead them onto a wrong road.

No, you really didn't. You may think your argument explains how both can be true, but it's nonsense made to cover up an obvious contradiction.

[flairwooo]

wooooo Wow, Either this kid has a crush on cena and just can't back down from defending him.. or he's the most retarded person to ever grace a wrestling forum..7 pages of getting owned wooooooooooo

[Big Vic]

Vermaat over time you will question the WWE

[Xero]

Vermaat over time you will question the WWE
Or he'll get a writing job.

[Skippord]

Stupid road metaphors

[KillerWolf]

I just answered that.

Pro Tip : The refresh key updates information in the current explorer window.

first of all, you will address me as "sir".

second of all, i did not recognize your back-peddalin' pussy-footin' as an answer.

[KillerWolf]

:mad:

" Ooooh, I hates varmints!!! "

[Kane Knight]

first of all, you will address me as "sir".

second of all, i did not recognize your back-peddalin' pussy-footin' as an answer.

It's pretty funny watching him all "I answered you! I answered you!" When he fails to make any legitimate attempt to address the statement. He tries to circumvent, and then acts all "Well I answered your question."

:|

[¡Coñaso!]

KK, I've persoanlly given up.
There's no point in going on. He wins...

[Kalyx triaD]

:mad:

" Ooooh, I hates varmints!!! "

Silence. Don't be forum-asshole #638. It isn't funny or point producing.

Vermaat. New question:

In all your honesty, how will you react if WM 'breaks it' for the WWE?

[Kane Knight]

KK, I've persoanlly given up.
There's no point in going on. He wins...

It's so fun to mock him. His base premise is so off it's hilarious.

[Kane Knight]

Silence. Don't be forum-asshole #638. I hate the competition.

[Kalyx triaD]

Don't you have a discussion to impress yourself with?

[Kane Knight]

A crisis is coming...Do I spit or swallow?

[Kalyx triaD]

Oh yeah, you rule. Thanks for the shout out.

[Kane Knight]

Das not cool

[Kalyx triaD]

Wow.

[Evolution]

I gave up reading his drivel at page 6, so sorry if I go over any previously covered points.

WCW did not go out of business because it listened to it's fans. It went out of business because it didn't listen to it's fans. Bischoff and whoever else was running the show was listening to Hogan, Nash and a load of other prima donnas who thought that because they used to be big, they should be the focus of the show.

They kept the nWo around not because the fans were loving it. The fans stopped loving it but office thought "they liked it the first few times, why wouldn't they like it again?"

I think everyone who as replied in this thread has given decent enough reasons to the whole John Cena situation. UNBIASED opinions. But you are such a fanboy you are just determined to disagree with anybody who doesn't think Cena is the be-all-and-end-all of WWE.

Cena got MORE cheers after he lost the WWE title to Edge, not less. This is because the fans thought they were going to get a nice title chase, lot's of obstacles for him to overcome and prove his worth as WWE champion, much like Rock/Austin during their respective eras. (Rock wanting Triple H's title and having to go through DX; Austin wanting Rock's title and having to go through the Corporation.)

As far as I know (I may be wrong) as WWE's rating's have been steadily declining, TNA's have been steadily increasing. Granted, they are nowhere near the level of WWE yet, but all these "Fake fans" are real fans after all. Just because they are not watching WWE anymore doesn't mean they stopped watching wrestling.

Basically, fans are having the same crud stuffed down their throats week after week. What RVD told JBL at ECW ONS could very easily be said to John Cena.

Oh, and with regards to what the fans thought of the 619 at One Night Stand (I don't think anyone covered this) basically as soon as Psichosis was hung up on the middle rope and Rey started running, EVERYBODY booed. Not a few, EVERYBODY! Why? Because it is a boring, unrealistic, crappy move that everyone hates. (Compared to what it used to be.)

That is all.
































BIATCH!

[Kane Knight]

WWE's ratings are stable for now.

[Arnold HamNegger]

I didn't watch WCW, but I've talked to fans of WCW at school back then and I knew the general feeling of people. Besides, fans of WCW weren't that different from fans of WWE. It is pretty easy to deduce what they wanted without being one.

Are you kidding me? Rather than admit you were wrong, you're gonna serve up this bullshit souffle? In a relavent argument, you're going to use the logic of "Well, I talked to a few people..therefore, it's pretty easy to deduce what millions of fans wanted...even though I didn't watch WCW myself...or know anything about them." You have the logic of a garden gnome. Actually, you should get into politics...you could be President someday.



I never said that WWE never makes mistakes.
No, you just won't admit when you're blatently wrong...even when you're caught with your pants down sodomizing a lie.


A lie is something that is not a truth. What I have said is a truth.

VERMAAT FOR PRESIDENT 2020!!!



He was responsible. It is not a lie to say that. But he was just one of the factors responsible, the other was WWE. Without WWE, ECW might still be here if there was no competitor like the WWE. There are no excuses, it was the WWE that ultimately put them out, even if it was due to mistakes of their owners. If the owners made the same mistakes but there were no WWE, they might still be around !!!

Again, you state your bullshit logic as fact and keep skating around the issue that this is NOT EVEN A TOPIC ABOUT OPINIONS!! It's a FACT that ECW was ruined by Paul Heyman. You keep ignoring the fact that WWE even admits this. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with your head? Vince made jokes all the time about running Bischoff and WCW out of business because they were direct competitors. AT NO TIME DID VINCE EVER DO THAT TO PAUL HEYMAN! The joke is that Paul screwed ECW. PAUL. WWE knows this and admits it, yet you continue to insist that your "fantasy" version is the fact. Again, just admit you're wrong. You might save a shred of respect. (although I'm sure it's too late.)

As far as Eric Biscoff is concerned, WWE didn't really rub in that they put him out of business. They mentioned it, but mostly it was not a fact that they would remind everyone of all the time. It was mostly, Biscoff being treated as a regular heel.

What fucking program have you been watching? Again, this isn't even a topic of opinion you retard! This is something that actually happened..ALOT. Arguing otherwise just further proves you are SEVERELY out of touch with reality.

[Kane Knight]

Don't waste your time arguing with the troll. Just point and laugh like everyone (But Kalyx, too busy worshipping his "heel" ness) else.

[Goulet]

no Vermaat today so far? I'm dissapointed

[Lord-Of-Darkness]

http://myspace-004.vo.llnwd.net/00574/40/00/574910004_l.jpg

[Arnold HamNegger]

no Vermaat today so far? I'm dissapointed

He's still hooked up to his "bullshit" I.V. getting prepared for today's discussions.

[Xero]

http://myspace-004.vo.llnwd.net/00574/40/00/574910004_l.jpg
I ain't buying that shit, too fucking expensive.

[Lord-Of-Darkness]

I think the shop zone prices MAKE OR BREAK THE BANK.

Touche Xero

[Arnold HamNegger]

Don't waste your time arguing with the troll. Just point and laugh like everyone (But Kalyx, too busy worshipping his "heel" ness) else.

You're right KK. Getting this guy to admit he is wrong is like trying to get a quadrepligic kid to run a marathon.

[Xero]

You're right KK. Getting this guy to admit he is wrong is like trying to get a quadrepligic kid to run a marathon.
Or, in a more appropriate comparison, trying to get a retarded kid to pass the SATs.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Or, in a more appropriate comparison, trying to get a retarded kid to pass the SATs.

:lol:

Better chance at getting Helen Keller to win an Easter Egg hunt.

[Skippord]

Or KK to stop sucking dick and being emo

[Kane Knight]

Or, in a more appropriate comparison, trying to get a retarded kid to pass the SATs.

Or trying to teach a dog to practice safe sex.

[Kalyx triaD]

Or KK to stop sucking dick and being emo

Or...






































...I'll be back. :(

[Kane Knight]

Or me to stop taking Raven up the arse and being emo

[Kane Knight]

Or...

...Me to stop making useless posts :(

[Kalyx triaD]

Kane Knight said I make useless post. The irony gives me a happy face.

-------> :)

[Schoenauer]

Wow... it's amazing that I actually sat through 8 pages of this, and I still fail to see the original poster's points.

[Xero]

Wow... it's amazing that I actually sat through 8 pages of this, and I still fail to see the original poster's points.
You mean after his third reply you didn't figure out that he has no points?

[Arnold HamNegger]

For those of you who are just joinining us, let me give you a few "highlights" of the debating skills from this threads creator...Vermaat. This should give you an idea of the mentality we're dealing with here and why noone can find the original point he was trying to make. Enjoy!


Does this mean WWE sucked? Not really. It meant they were on the wrong road, and okay, it did mean they sucked a little in some areas. That doesn't mean they were sucking and you seem to misunderstand what I meant.

and......

I never said WWE never makes mistakes. They do. There were other things going on that were right and entertaining, so they weren't sucking on the whole, but of any of those things were changing, they could have gotten to a point where they sucked. They did not.

and finally.....

Also, I never said a true wrestling fan would still watch the WWE becaus even though the main event was faltering and they were ON the wrong road, they were not sucking per se. This is why TRUE wrestling fans would continue to watch for the things that didn't suck and support the company.


Clearly we are dealing with this generations version of Hemmingway.

[Xero]

Clearly we are dealing with this generations version of Hemmingway.
The sad thing is that that's a very true statement in this day and age. Relative to this generation's idea of "entertainment", anyway. Thankfully I never liked this generation's, well, anything.

[Corkscrewed]

Wow, I go on vacation for five days and this is STILL going?

Well, Varmaat, I've browsed through this thread, and I still see you making the same hypocritical mistakes. Where the argument is against you, you accuse the poster of accepting rumor as fact, or of being biased, or of assuming things. However, where it helps your case, you do the exact same thing!

Your argument about the Cruisers, for example, bleeds of inconsistencies. You say that they are lazy. What PROOF do you have of this? By your own admission, you are using "logic" to deduce this. You reason that they work hard to get to the WWE, then get lazy because they've "made it." You act like this is the ONLY explanation for WWE Cruisers using less "innovative" moves.

What most people have brought up is that they have been limited. Rey's been limited too. Innovative? If he was truly being allowed to be innovative, he'd have cranked out a lot more than a 619. You're using ONE move to "prove" that a wrestler is innovative, when that move has been repeated for four yeasr on the WWE. What about Akio and his corkscrew moonsault? What about Paul London's dropsault into a moonsault splash on a second opponent? What about Jamie Noble doing that nifty sunset flip, catching on the opponents arms behind him, then spinning them into a standing flipping powerbomb? What about Nunzio's jumping armbar slam off the second rope? What about Kendrick's Sliced Bread #2?

I can call each and every one of those moves just as innovative as Rey Mysterio's 619, by your own terms. How come they don't count?

Why does your theory that they are being lazy (where you have no proof) is a "fact" and yet consistently reported news about wrestlers being limited must be false? Then you say Vince keeps them because he thinks they have potential.... WHAT?! That sounds like a child saying the sky is green, then when someone says "look, it's blue" he goes "God put a blue film over it." To the child, this may be logical, but to everyone else, it sounds assinine.

You say that the WWE only fires bad wrestlers, which of course explains why they've let people like Akio, Charlie Haas, and Sean O'Haire go--all wrestlers who have tremendous wrestling ability and a penchant for doing unique moves.

You say that Cena is a good rapper... and maybe in freestyling, he is, but his CD was regarded by most rap critics as in the lower echelon of all rap CD's released last year. In other words, rap fans who know what they're talking about agree that Cena's album pretty much sucked.

You claim that a small crowd can influence hundreds more to chant what they chant, using a psychological "sheep mentality" argument as proof. Again, you assume that people will chant just because others are doing so. YOu assume that if they don't, they feel awkward. Again, this has no basis. Your friends may do that (or not). You may do that (or not). But that does not mean everyone does that. If you conducted a formal exit poll of wrestling fans exiting an arena and got their opinions, THEN that would be proof (if they said what you said).

You argue that Mark Henry was the product of bad storylines. Nevermind he's been a sloopy worker and has injured other wrestlers (the latest being a botched splash on Batista a few months ago).

You're being quite technical, so I don't see why you think Rey shares no blame in the Eddie incident. Earlier, you build him up like he's the best guy in the biz (or one of the best). So if he was really fervently behind Eddie, why didn't he just refuse? Lose a job? If he's that big, wouldn't Vince be afraid to fire him? After all, by your words, he keeps other Cruisers because of potential. If he's willing to do that, why would he fire his best Cruiser (again in your words)? And even if he were to lose his job... he's a huge name. He could go to another fed and get paid just about as much. So the fact that he did this indicates a level of personal blame. I'm not saying Rey's evil, but you cannot say he shares zero blame in this.


In short, since I haven't the time to actually label every post, you have only made your own assertions based on your own opinions, but you've treated them as fact. They are only fact by YOUR logic, but everyone else here has disagreed with you. You may say that it's because only you know what you're talking about, but then you would only sound delusional.

You dismiss other people's (more valid) arguments when they don't help you, calling them ungrounded, yet you make the exact same types of statements (things that can be switched around with the same minimal effort) and say that you're right.

I don't know if you even realize your entire argument has no basis. Clearly, you are too stubborn to accept that you are, for most of your arguments, wrong. So you continue to post. Either that, or you're a troll with a lot of free time.

[Pinnacle Charisma]

Varmaat is probally the worst debater this place has ever seen

[Vermaat]

Whaa whaa whaa. Oh no why is vermaat not posting? Guess what I have something called a life, look into it :roll:

In all your honesty, how will you react if WM 'breaks it' for the WWE?

I will be pretty damn upset, but I will give WWE a chance and see where they go with it. Maybe they have some aces up their sleeve.

No, you really didn't. You may think your argument explains how both can be true, but it's nonsense made to cover up an obvious contradiction.

It's all valid. WWE can go on a wrong road that can lead to their downfall. Immediately? NO. Eventually? It's possible!!!

WCW did not go out of business because it listened to it's fans. It went out of business because it didn't listen to it's fans. Bischoff and whoever else was running the show was listening to Hogan, Nash and a load of other prima donnas who thought that because they used to be big, they should be the focus of the show.


It partially went out of business because it listened to the fans. Hogan, Nash and the other OLD guys were a part of the problem too, but listening to the fans was another. This is why I am concerned that guys that are getting old in WWE are sticking around (Undertaker, Angle). But WcW only went with the NWO because it was getting a good reaction from the fans, everyone HATED it and HATED it even more the second time around and becausE WCW listened to the fans they decided that NWO worked well as a heel stable and kept them on.

I think everyone who as replied in this thread has given decent enough reasons to the whole John Cena situation. UNBIASED opinions. But you are such a fanboy you are just determined to disagree with anybody who doesn't think Cena is the be-all-and-end-all of WWE.

Cena got MORE cheers after he lost the WWE title to Edge, not less. This is because the fans thought they were going to get a nice title chase, lot's of obstacles for him to overcome and prove his worth as WWE champion, much like Rock/Austin during their respective eras. (Rock wanting Triple H's title and having to go through DX; Austin wanting Rock's title and having to go through the Corporation.)


I am giving unbiased facts on John Cena. I am not thinking that he is the best ever, but face it, who else in the WWE has as much potential as he does? No one. There is no one that has as much charisma in the WWE to drive a new generation. Cena got more cheers after he lost the title to EDge because Edge sucks so much and was not ready for the title that even the guys who wanted to look "cool" didn't want to see him with the title further so they cheered Cena. Also, these fans suceeded in having Cena loose the title so they got bored with trying to screw him.

As far as I know (I may be wrong) as WWE's rating's have been steadily declining, TNA's have been steadily increasing. Granted, they are nowhere near the level of WWE yet, but all these "Fake fans" are real fans after all. Just because they are not watching WWE anymore doesn't mean they stopped watching wrestling.


TNA has no stars. TNA ratings is like 0.7. They only have gotten in the 1.0 range like once. AM RAW beats TNA in ratings. TNA is no match and if all those fake fans tha were watching WWE left and watched TNA, then TNA would get big ratings. Face it, TNA is a NICHE market.

Oh, and with regards to what the fans thought of the 619 at One Night Stand (I don't think anyone covered this) basically as soon as Psichosis was hung up on the middle rope and Rey started running, EVERYBODY booed. Not a few, EVERYBODY! Why? Because it is a boring, unrealistic, crappy move that everyone hates. (Compared to what it used to be.)


If this is what happened, then why are the fans not booing the 6-1-9 now? I think I can figure out why. A lot of the fans who came to watch One Night Stand are former ECW fans and are disgruntled at the WWE and they booed mysterio to screw with the program. Same mentality, boo the good guy (Cena, Mysterio) screw with the program. A lot were not TRUE WWE fans, they just came for ECW reunion.

BIATCH!

Don't you have homework in the 8th grade?

Are you kidding me? Rather than admit you were wrong, you're gonna serve up this bullshit souffle? In a relavent argument, you're going to use the logic of "Well, I talked to a few people..therefore, it's pretty easy to deduce what millions of fans wanted...even though I didn't watch WCW myself...or know anything about them." You have the logic of a garden gnome. Actually, you should get into politics...you could be President someday.


Yes that is called FIRST PERSON ACCOUNTS. I talked to a few people and knew the mentality of the fans because I was with a good representation of fans, the same fans that were watching WCW then, so I think they are a good source of information. And is that suppose to insult me? I'd love to be the president, it's one of the top jobs in da world.

No, you just won't admit when you're blatently wrong...even when you're caught with your pants down sodomizing a lie.



I do not lie.

Again, you state your bullshit logic as fact and keep skating around the issue that this is NOT EVEN A TOPIC ABOUT OPINIONS!! It's a FACT that ECW was ruined by Paul Heyman. You keep ignoring the fact that WWE even admits this. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with your head? Vince made jokes all the time about running Bischoff and WCW out of business because they were direct competitors. AT NO TIME DID VINCE EVER DO THAT TO PAUL HEYMAN! The joke is that Paul screwed ECW. PAUL. WWE knows this and admits it, yet you continue to insist that your "fantasy" version is the fact. Again, just admit you're wrong. You might save a shred of respect. (although I'm sure it's too late.)


I am not denying that ECW was ruined by Paul Heyman. But he was not the only factor n ruining it. He was not the sole factor. The WWE played a role in it too. Face it, if there was no WWE, then ECW would have a better chance of still being around because fans would only have two feds to watch.

What fucking program have you been watching? Again, this isn't even a topic of opinion you retard! This is something that actually happened..ALOT. Arguing otherwise just further proves you are SEVERELY out of touch with reality.


I think you are confusing "heel bischoff" getting beaten down for being a heel and Bischoff being mocked for WcW.

Don't waste your time arguing with the troll. Just point and laugh like everyone (But Kalyx, too busy worshipping his "heel" ness) else.

Your logic : Anyone who disagrees with me : TROLL.

Wow... it's amazing that I actually sat through 8 pages of this, and I still fail to see the original poster's points.

My points were that if the WWE makes a few mistakes at Wrestlemania (have Cena lose, have rey lose, have MArk Henry lose) that they will enter on a road that might lead to their destruction sometime in the far future. If they make these mistakes, WWE quality will go down.

For those of you who are just joinining us, let me give you a few "highlights" of the debate skills from this threads creator...Vermaat. This should give you an idea of the mentality we're dealing with here and why noone can find the original point he was trying to make. Enjoy!


You misunderstand my points. There is a difference between a company sucking on the whole and a company sucking in some fields. For example, you can have a computer that sucks at playing games, but does it suck on the whole? No, it is good for making spreadsheets.

Your argument about the Cruisers, for example, bleeds of inconsistencies. You say that they are lazy. What PROOF do you have of this? By your own admission, you are using "logic" to deduce this. You reason that they work hard to get to the WWE, then get lazy because they've "made it." You act like this is the ONLY explanation for WWE Cruisers using less "innovative" moves.

What most people have brought up is that they have been limited. Rey's been limited too. Innovative? If he was truly being allowed to be innovative, he'd have cranked out a lot more than a 619. You're using ONE move to "prove" that a wrestler is innovative, when that move has been repeated for four yeasr on the WWE. What about Akio and his corkscrew moonsault? What about Paul London's dropsault into a moonsault splash on a second opponent? What about Jamie Noble doing that nifty sunset flip, catching on the opponents arms behind him, then spinning them into a standing flipping powerbomb? What about Nunzio's jumping armbar slam off the second rope? What about Kendrick's Sliced Bread #2?

I can call each and every one of those moves just as innovative as Rey Mysterio's 619, by your own terms. How come they don't count?


This is the only explanation I can think of for cruisers to suddenly droip the quality of their matches, well, certain cruisers. Rey also has the West Coast Pop, another innovative moves and many others. If you watch a Rey match you will see, like when he twists around the wrestler and goes under him and pins him. There are too many moves for me to mention. Rey is one, no one else on the roster does the things he does. 6 1 9 is unique because of the way it utilizes the ropes, I don't see other wrestlers utilizing the ropes like this.

All the moves except Sliced Bread are innovative, I agree. However, these are the only innovative moves I see these guys pop out and they are nowhere near as fun to watch as Rey. They just aren't as fast paced and they only pull off these moves rarely. Rey pulls out the 6 1 9 in every match. Sliced Bread is pretty much a dudley dog.

Why does your theory that they are being lazy (where you have no proof) is a "fact" and yet consistently reported news about wrestlers being limited must be false? Then you say Vince keeps them because he thinks they have potential.... WHAT?! That sounds like a child saying the sky is green, then when someone says "look, it's blue" he goes "God put a blue film over it." To the child, this may be logical, but to everyone else, it sounds assinine.

You say that the WWE only fires bad wrestlers, which of course explains why they've let people like Akio, Charlie Haas, and Sean O'Haire go--all wrestlers who have tremendous wrestling ability and a penchant for doing unique moves.

You say that Cena is a good rapper... and maybe in freestyling, he is, but his CD was regarded by most rap critics as in the lower echelon of all rap CD's released last year. In other words, rap fans who know what they're talking about agree that Cena's album pretty much sucked.


Vince knows they are lazy, but keeps them because they have potential. Nothing wrong with that. He knows that eventually there is a chance they can break out, so he keeps them, no reason to rush, they are still good even when lazy. It's just that Rey is getting the world title and they are not. The news that were reported are nothing but rumor because they were not reported on the official site.

Akio was a good wrestler, but there is more to being in the WWE then just amazing wrestling. Akio had no mic skills and no character and he did not develop his mic skill or character. When he debuted he was silent japanese guy and he never changed.

Charlie Haas was taken back. Hopefully he has improved. Like Akio he suffered from character lack.

I did not see what's so special about O'Haire. Generic Hoss and he was bad on the mic. Good in pre recorded promos but bad live.

Like I said about Cena's disc, it is not the issue for me that it was bad or good. Someone said Cena was not a rapper and I said he was because he made a rap CD. Now, I tend to think that it was good and Music is something that is subjective, not objective. It sounded good to my ears, you might have a different taste and I don't trust "critics" when it comes to music.

You claim that a small crowd can influence hundreds more to chant what they chant, using a psychological "sheep mentality" argument as proof. Again, you assume that people will chant just because others are doing so. YOu assume that if they don't, they feel awkward. Again, this has no basis. Your friends may do that (or not). You may do that (or not). But that does not mean everyone does that. If you conducted a formal exit poll of wrestling fans exiting an arena and got their opinions, THEN that would be proof (if they said what you said).

You argue that Mark Henry was the product of bad storylines. Nevermind he's been a sloopy worker and has injured other wrestlers (the latest being a botched splash on Batista a few months ago).

You're being quite technical, so I don't see why you think Rey shares no blame in the Eddie incident. Earlier, you build him up like he's the best guy in the biz (or one of the best). So if he was really fervently behind Eddie, why didn't he just refuse? Lose a job? If he's that big, wouldn't Vince be afraid to fire him? After all, by your words, he keeps other Cruisers because of potential. If he's willing to do that, why would he fire his best Cruiser (again in your words)? And even if he were to lose his job... he's a huge name. He could go to another fed and get paid just about as much. So the fact that he did this indicates a level of personal blame. I'm not saying Rey's evil, but you cannot say he shares zero blame in this.


No one is going to admit that they went with the crowd. It is a proved fact that people fall under peer pressure. Do all of them? No, that's why a lot of people cheer for Cena. But do a lot of them? Yes. Read any psychology text book, it will tell you that pressure from those around you has a lot to do with you wanting to imitate them.

Batista was already wrestling injured. There is no 100% conformed report that Mark Henry caused the injury. WWE did say it, but only in storyline purposes. They did not say that it was the fault of Mark Henry on the website. Just because it was in a match with him, doesn't mean it's his fault.

Rey is one of the best guys backstage. There is nowhere to turn besides the WWE because Rey has to look out for his pay. No one pays as much as the WWE and rey knows this and there is no one that is a competitor in North America that will pay as much. I don't think that there was that much going on. Obviously WWE got permission from Eddie's family, so who is Rey to judge? Rey never did anything bad so he is in the clear, and whenever or not he should step in and fight Orton for doing it is up to debate because Orton was doing it for a storyline. Fight the WWE? they got permission from Eddie's family so there's not that much to do here.

[Lord-Of-Darkness]

Duuuuuuuude......your so gonna get flamed again. Why do you bother.

Also, I went to the effort of making a shirt for you on PSP to mock the shopzone thread and this one..... and don't even get mentioned by you. What.......the fuck

[Vermaat]

Duuuuuuuude......your so gonna get flamed again. Why do you bother.

Also, I went to the effort of making a shirt for you on PSP to mock the shopzone thread and this one..... and don't even get mentioned by you. What.......the fuck

Ok lol that was pretty cool except I said "Make it or break it" now make or break but okay lol it was pretty funny !!!

[Kane Knight]

Kane Knight said I make useless post. The irony gives me a happy face.

-------> :)

Everybody but me is wrong lololol

[Kane Knight]

Your logic : Anyone who disagrees with me : TROLL.

My logic: People who deliberately deny facts, lie and create their own versions of the truth? Either seriously mentally handicapped or trolls.

With you, it's a 50-50 shot. I'm guessing troll.

If anything were true, it would be that my logic is anyone who disagress with me is a retard. Even that's a stretch, but hey, the least you could do is come close to reality. :)

[Kane Knight]

Ok lol that was pretty cool except I said "Make it or break it" now make or break but okay lol it was pretty funny !!!

"make or break" and "make it or break it" mean the same thing. What difference does it make?

[Lord-Of-Darkness]

Nine pages later, and this guy is still debating things I'm not even sure he understands himself. He claims to have a life, but if he is half the rambling retard he is on here in real life, I'm very suprised that his friends haven't beaten him with a big stick by now...

[Lord-Of-Darkness]

"make or break" and "make it or break it" mean the same thing. What difference does it make?

He won't pay for the merchandise, but he will critisize it. You just can't help the guy now...

[Xero]

This is the only explanation I can think of for cruisers to suddenly droip the quality of their matches, well, certain cruisers. Rey also has the West Coast Pop, another innovative moves and many others. If you watch a Rey match you will see, like when he twists around the wrestler and goes under him and pins him. There are too many moves for me to mention. Rey is one, no one else on the roster does the things he does. 6 1 9 is unique because of the way it utilizes the ropes, I don't see other wrestlers utilizing the ropes like this.

All the moves except Sliced Bread are innovative, I agree. However, these are the only innovative moves I see these guys pop out and they are nowhere near as fun to watch as Rey. They just aren't as fast paced and they only pull off these moves rarely. Rey pulls out the 6 1 9 in every match. Sliced Bread is pretty much a dudley dog.
First of all, the West Coast Pop is a seated senton into a Hurricarana. Learn some move's names.

Second of all, why do you think they aren't doing them? Matches in the WWE are almost always booked to the minute. There is not a lot of adlib in the lower card's matches. Simply put in your words, they don't do these moves often because, as you've stated, they are too dangerous. In the real world, they're just not scripted to do those moves and the road agents (there's a new phrase for you) tell them what to and not to do.

That's another thing. You said that the cruisers are basically liabilities. Why would Vince keep them around if they're so dangerous?

And there have been many reports stating that Henry did indeed injure Batista. They just "worked" it into something they call a "storyline".

(This is the last time I post in this thread with anything to do with his arguments.)

[Kane Knight]

He won't pay for the merchandise, but he will critisize it. You just can't help the guy now...

FINLAY could help him.

The only problem is, the dumb fuck would call him a fighting irish bastard to his face.

[Lord-Of-Darkness]

FINLAY could help him.

The only problem is, the dumb fuck would call him a fighting irish bastard to his face.

After the beating....

[Arnold HamNegger]

It's all valid. WWE can go on a wrong road that can lead to their downfall. Immediately? NO. Eventually? It's possible!!!

So basically, your argument is this: Whenever anyone else gives their opinion about their displeasure for WWE...according to you...they are wrong. Your logic: "WWE is the best! The quality has always been good! You're an idiot to say other wise! If you don't like WWE, then you aren't a real wrestling fan!"

But now, suddenly after ALL THESE YEARS, WWE will decline in your opinion...if Cena loses. You dismiss all of OUR oppinions, relavent points and facts about WWE's decline as false...but suddenly just because your hero CENA might lose the belt, "WWE WILL GO DOWN A WRONG ROAD THAT CAN LEAD TO THEIR DOWNFALL."

This is the basis of your argument, point blank. You are not a "wrestling fan", BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION. Frankly, you are nothing more than a HYPOCRITE CENA MARK!.



It partially went out of business because it listened to the fans. Hogan, Nash and the other OLD guys were a part of the problem too, but listening to the fans was another. But WcW only went with the NWO because it was getting a good reaction from the fans, everyone HATED it and HATED it even more the second time around and becausE WCW listened to the fans they decided that NWO worked well as a heel stable and kept them on.

Ok, here all in one sentance you contradict yourself. I will put the contradiction in bold so you can see it with your own eyes. "But WcW only went with the NWO because it was getting a good reaction from the fans, everyone HATED it and HATED it even more the second time around and becausE WCW listened to the fans they decided that NWO worked well as a heel stable and kept them on."

In one breath you say it was getting a "good reaction from the fans" then after a "," you proceed to then say that "everyone HATED it and HATED it even more the second time around."

Fans = good reaction.....everyone = HATED IT.

Everyone are the fans, the fans are everyone....thus the contradiction you ignorant piss monkey! The fact in all of our 3 dementional worlds is that WCW DID NOT listen to the fans. You stated yourself, that "everyone HATED IT." Yet, WCW continued to be run by Bischoff, Hogan, Nash, etc. who listened to nobody but themselves. By IGNORING THE FANS (that means NOT listening to them), the fans eventually grew sour of WCW's product and jumped ship to WWE. THUS, the gain in WWE ratings and the demise of WCW. That's the fact.

Your theory/logic: "WCW gave in and listened to the fans and when the fans got what they wanted they realized it was crap and didn't want it anymore." (or something to that effect.) Yeah, that's the ticket. Just a bit of advice, if you know NOTHING about a company and didn't watch them...then whatever "logic" you come up with that strays from the factual truth is NOT A FACT to anyone but you. Thus, your whole argument is bullshit. Simple enough?



Cena got more cheers after he lost the title to EDge because Edge sucks so much and was not ready for the title that even the guys who wanted to look "cool" didn't want to see him with the title further so they cheered Cena. Also, these fans suceeded in having Cena loose the title so they got bored with trying to screw him.

This is the scenerio that your brain developed in order to cope with the fact that ***GASP*** people were booing Cena? This makes absolutely NO GODDAMN SENSE to anyone sane of mind. It's sad, you can't cope with the fact that people actually don't like your hero, so you're brain protects you by developing a blanket of lies to delusionally hide under. Explain the fact that ratings went UP when Edge won the title and he got a HUGE face pop when he won the belt. Just so you know, viewers at home can't "pressure" other viewers to tune back into a product they lost interest in. It's a simple formula: Ratings went down because people got sick of Cena. Ratings went up when Cena dropped the belt. Thus, proving that people weren't "fake" wrestling fans, they just weren't fans of Cena. The fact is, that Edge drew higher ratings as Champ than Cena ever has....so try to "logic" your way around that.


Yes that is called FIRST PERSON ACCOUNTS. I talked to a few people and knew the mentality of the fans because I was with a good representation of fans, the same fans that were watching WCW then, so I think they are a good source of information.

Yes, you based your PERSONAL OPINION off talking to a few people. The key word there asshole is OPINION. Your opinion does not = fact to anyone other than you. Let me put it to you this way, according to your "logic" here, let's say I go and interview a few people your age and race...then turn around and make assumptions and project life changes on 1 million people your age/race, including you. Suddenly you are forced to follow the same religion, follow the same beliefs, wear the same cloths, watch the same TV shows, eat the same foods, etc. based off the data I collected from the FEW PEOPLE I got information from. Well, according to your "logic"...I talked to A FEW PEOPLE who were good "representatives" to your age/race...thus I'm now an expert on the subject and the people involved. Therefore, the opinions I develop based on my "logic" are facts. Then I make the entire million other people...including you...conform into the mold that my "logic" created...without ever having heard your opinion. That's the "logic" you're using to fuel your argument.

Sound insane? YES! If I tried to do that I would be thrown in an assylum, be jailed or killed. Your "logic" sounds alot like dictatorship or communism...only they were a little more open minded then you. (of course you will say that my example is extreme and doesn't apply to you...because anything relavent doesn't apply to you when it proves you wrong...in your mind. That's called delusional buddy.


And is that suppose to insult me? I'd love to be the president, it's one of the top jobs in da world.

Well, the world the rest of us live in Vermaat...politicians are considered crooks and liars...especially our current President...so yeah, I could see how you'd be flattered. They never admit they're wrong either and always tell the truth.



I do not lie.

President Vermaat: "I did not have sexual relations with that girl!"



I am not denying that ECW was ruined by Paul Heyman. But he was not the only factor n ruining it. He was not the sole factor. The WWE played a role in it too.

Based on YOUR OPINION and YOUR GODDAMN OPINION ONLY! Seriously, WWE hasn't come out and taken any credit for sinking ECW. They just laugh at Paul Heyman. Have you had private personal conversations with Vince McMahon and he secretely admits this to you and ONLY YOU? Once again, it's your "logic" creating this...and it doesn't make it a fact. The only fact is that you continue to push an argument for WWE that doesn't exist, because WWE has already stated their opinion on the demise of ECW. Accept it and move on. You are wrong. Paul Heyman destroyed ECW, just ask WWE. Better yet, don't argue with me...why don't you email WWE and tell them that their opinion is wrong. After all, you're the expert.



I think you are confusing "heel bischoff" getting beaten down for being a heel and Bischoff being mocked for WcW.

I think you are confusing "reality" with "happy time." The rest of the world watched Vince depants Bischoff every chance he got. What the hell were you watching? Once again, this isn't opinion vs. opinion you douchebag...these events ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE...in the REAL REAL time.



My points were that if the WWE makes a few mistakes at Wrestlemania (have Cena lose, have rey lose, have MArk Henry lose) that they will enter on a road that might lead to their destruction sometime in the far future. If they make these mistakes, WWE quality will go down.

Again, quality has never EVER been down in the WWE before...but it will if your precious Cena loses. Spoken like a true Cena fanbitch. Your hypocrisy knows no end.



You misunderstand my points. There is a difference between a company sucking on the whole and a company sucking in some fields. For example, you can have a computer that sucks at playing games, but does it suck on the whole? No, it is good for making spreadsheets.

The only point you get across when you speak like this is that your grammer and debate skills suck. That's the only "sucking" going on.



This is the only explanation I can think of for cruisers to suddenly droip the quality of their matches, well, certain cruisers.

Key words, "The only explanation I can think of...." This means you don't have the facts, because you DON'T KNOW. You aren't in the WWE, you don't talk to anyone in the WWE, you don't talk to any of the cruiserweights...therefore, YOU DON'T KNOW! Therefore, whatever stupid theory you've come up with, ISN'T A FACT...so stop using it in a debate as such. How can you possibly believe your theory to be fact and then discount what other ACTUAL WRESTLERS have said on the subject? There's a professional term for that and it's CRAZY.


Vince knows they are lazy, but keeps them because they have potential.

Unless you have documented proof that you've ever...oh I don't know.... SPOKEN TO VINCE PERSONALLY and gotten HIS OPINION, quit speaking for him as if it's a fact! SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[Kane Knight]

So basically, your argument is this: Whenever anyone else gives their opinion about their displeasure for WWE...according to you...they are wrong. Your logic: "WWE is the best! The quality has always been good! You're an idiot to say other wise! If you don't like WWE, then you aren't a real wrestling fan!"

But now, suddenly after ALL THESE YEARS, WWE will decline in your opinion...if Cena loses. You dismiss all of OUR oppinions, relavent points and facts about WWE's decline as false...but suddenly just because your hero CENA might lose the belt, "WWE WILL GO DOWN A WRONG ROAD THAT CAN LEAD TO THEIR DOWNFALL."

LOL Yeah. It's pretty funny seeing him talk about how dominating they are through thick and thin, but THIS will be the difference maker.

[Kane Knight]

After the beating....

I think after the 8th or 9th he might suspect something was up.

[Xero]

Didn't read it, but I am going to put this all on the line.

If John Cena retains the title barring a Triple H injury, AND if Mark Henry beats the Undertaker CLEANLY, I will forever leave TPWW....... Forever.

I mean that.

However, if I'm correct, YOU must leave.

Edit: This was a joke, by the way. :shifty:

(I know it'll happen, just saying...)

[Corkscrewed]

Some others may have covered this, but anyway...

This is the only explanation I can think of for cruisers to suddenly droip the quality of their matches, well, certain cruisers. Rey also has the West Coast Pop, another innovative moves and many others. If you watch a Rey match you will see, like when he twists around the wrestler and goes under him and pins him. There are too many moves for me to mention. Rey is one, no one else on the roster does the things he does. 6 1 9 is unique because of the way it utilizes the ropes, I don't see other wrestlers utilizing the ropes like this.
The West Coast Pop is a springboard hurricanrana. It's done by plenty of wrestlers in Japan, and in Indy Feds. I hope you do not argue that because Rey is the only one who does it in the WWE, that means he's innovative, because then you'd be missing the whole "don't use other people's finishers" code.

Twisting around a wrestler and pinning is another standard move called a spinning sunset flip rollup. It's a neat move, but it's been done by other Cruisers as a counter. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a wrestler about to be powerbombed flip over and roll into a sunset flip.

Watch the MNM vs Batista/Rey match from a couple of months again. Nitro and Mercury did some pretty nifty moves as well. I made a topic about it if you care to search.

London and Super Crazy do lots of rope interaction moves too. How about Super Crazy's rope switch into a falling moonsault? Or when he arm wrenches an opponent, holds onto the arm, leaps up onto the top rope then leaps into a head scissors?

I mean, no one does what Undertaker does with the ropes (Old School)... are you saying that he's a super innovative man as well? Because as much as I love Taker, he's got a pretty darn standard moveset.

All the moves except Sliced Bread are innovative, I agree. However, these are the only innovative moves I see these guys pop out and they are nowhere near as fun to watch as Rey. They just aren't as fast paced and they only pull off these moves rarely. Rey pulls out the 6 1 9 in every match. Sliced Bread is pretty much a dudley dog.
I'm sorry, but Rey, especially in the WWE, is nowhere as exciting to watch as he was in WCW or in ECW. He's much slower and relies on the same string of staple moves. His debut match against Chavo on Smackdown years ago was really cool, but since then, has he really added any real moves to his arsenal? He's still doing the 619, West Coast Pop, that body scissors into a bulldog, and some top rope moves like a moonsault. He's added a Bronco Buster he uses occassionally, but didn't X-Pac used to do it?

The point is that Rey isn't as glowingly brilliant as you paint him to be either. His matches follow the formulamatic path that his fellow Cruiserweights pursue, with occassional flashes of brilliance. The same can be said of all the wrestlers. If Rey hasn't added new moves to his moveset since he debuted, wouldn't he be lazy as well?

Rey's matches are NOT fast paced these days (due in part to age and to the "WWE Style"). His matches are on par with those of Super Crazy, Paul London, and Kid Kash. Nunzio has a slower style, Jamie Noble is more methodical (although he can go fast as well). Have you watched his earlier matches? THAT'S fast.

Vince knows they are lazy, but keeps them because they have potential. Nothing wrong with that. He knows that eventually there is a chance they can break out, so he keeps them, no reason to rush, they are still good even when lazy. It's just that Rey is getting the world title and they are not. The news that were reported are nothing but rumor because they were not reported on the official site.
What?! That's why he fired Juventud Guerrera, right? Juventud is one of the best cruisers in the world, but he's an idiot, and his backstage antics cost him his job. However, by your logic, Juventud would still be in the WWE because he has "potential."

There's this thing called politics. I don't know how old you are, but perhaps you are too young to know what this is. The WWE (as well as many companies) is dominated by politics. This has been documented by numerous wrestlers who've been with the company and wrestlers who are still in the company. Of course the company isn't going to admit to that. If you were doing something shady, would you report it to the world?

The fact that you cling to this idea that only news from the official site is valid is prepostrous. PWInsider and 1Wrestling are reputed news agencies who have consistently proven to provide reliable and accurate news. Jamie Noble was fired because he failed a drug test, but this was never reported on WWE.com. Does that mean it's not true? Because Noble will tell you himself that that's what happened. How can "your only way of explaining" Cruiserweight "drop" in quality be a valid argument, but wrestling news web site reports be false? What makes your word better than their's?

Akio was a good wrestler, but there is more to being in the WWE then just amazing wrestling. Akio had no mic skills and no character and he did not develop his mic skill or character. When he debuted he was silent japanese guy and he never changed.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. But he had POTENTIAL! Why didn't Vince keep him if he obviously was a great wrestler? You just negated your own point here.

Furthermore, you can't have mic skills if you're not given time to talk, or a character to portray. If Rey Mysterio was portrayed as a silent Mexican field worker, he'd have gone down the same path. He was on a "Japanese Yakuza" storyline with Tajiri, but that lasted all of two weeks. How can you even blame him?

Charlie Haas was taken back. Hopefully he has improved. Like Akio he suffered from character lack.
No, he was simply not used. You can have the best talent in the world, but if you're not being put in consistent storylines, what can you do? He had a thing going with Shelton, then Shelton went to RAW. Then Haas was shuffled around different tag partners. And even if he had character lack... this still defeats your first argument: that Vince keeps wrestlers around because they have potential. If this was the case, Haas would never have been let go in the first place. Therefore, there must be another reason.

I did not see what's so special about O'Haire. Generic Hoss and he was bad on the mic. Good in pre recorded promos but bad live.
You do realize he could do a senton bomb, right? You do realize he had that unique Widow Maker finisher, right? You do realize he was very quick and athletic, right?

Probably not, because he never go to display those skills in the WWE. In WCW, he was a tremendous athlete. In the WWE, he played second fiddle behind Rod Piper.

Like I said about Cena's disc, it is not the issue for me that it was bad or good. Someone said Cena was not a rapper and I said he was because he made a rap CD. Now, I tend to think that it was good and Music is something that is subjective, not objective. It sounded good to my ears, you might have a different taste and I don't trust "critics" when it comes to music.
Okay, he was good to you. But that's the thing... you're dealing with people who probably know more than you. So you can't just say that your opinion is fact.

Here's an example:
You called O'Haire a "generic hoss." This suggests you don't think a "generic hoss" is anything special. Yet if you ask very casual wrestling fans, they'll be impressed by a hoss because the guy's big. That's it. The guy's big, and that's "cool." You will probably look at that fan and shake your head, wondering how he can form that opinion, because he's just a generic hoss! You might even argue that the hoss in question can't wrestle well, only does a few moves, and has little character. But he'll say that he likes him because he's big, and it's his opinion. So who's right there, you or the fan? Does that mean that hoss is good, because the fan liked him?

Critics have experience in the subject matter. They've dealt with it and have developed a taste for what's good and bad. They're not always right, but they're probably better at judging things than you or I, on average at least. You can't just dismiss something like that just because you don't agree with it. That's simply ignorant.

No one is going to admit that they went with the crowd. It is a proved fact that people fall under peer pressure. Do all of them? No, that's why a lot of people cheer for Cena. But do a lot of them? Yes. Read any psychology text book, it will tell you that pressure from those around you has a lot to do with you wanting to imitate them.
Another stereotype. No one is going to admit they went with a crowd? Hell, I am PROUD to say that I've stood by my own ideals and went against the crowd. I and many people I know have faced peer pressure on petty things like drugs and alcohol and cigarettes, and we've emerged doing our own thing.

But lets ignore that for a bit. You're misinterpreting these textbooks. The peer pressure you're talkiing about is direct peer pressure. People are directly inviting you to join them in an activity. In a crowd atmosphere like that, the "pressure" is at best indirect. If you chant with a crowd, it's not because you're being coerced or prodded to do it. It's because you feel like it as well. At best, you chant along because you think it's a hoot. Say the crowd chants "Cena sucks!" and you go along. Obviously, you can't like Cena, or else you wouldn't join it at all. The fact that you participate indicates that you share some sort of apathy or dislike towards him. After all, if you're a fan of your local sports team, but you're at the venue of their opponent, and everyone else chants against your team, would you go along? Of course not, because you support your team.

However, if you disliked that team or didn't care, then of course you'd go along with it.

You make it sound like these fans are being forced to chant against their will. That's what your language suggests. The fact is that the Cena sucks chants are significant. I don't deny that many fans enjoy Cena, but probably an equal amount dislike him or don't care about him. In terms of popularity, apathy is equivalent to animosity, because neither is on your side.

If your peer pressure thing was right, then rioters would be able to use that excuse all the time. "I broke into the store because everyone else was doing it too... I really support my neighborhood though!" That's not valid. And neither is your point.

Batista was already wrestling injured. There is no 100% conformed report that Mark Henry caused the injury. WWE did say it, but only in storyline purposes. They did not say that it was the fault of Mark Henry on the website. Just because it was in a match with him, doesn't mean it's his fault.
You're right. However, using my "logic" and "reasoning," given the nature of the injury (on the tricep area) and his prior history of injurying other wrestlers (accidentally, but injuring them nonetheless) and the fact that it occurred when Mark gave him a big splash (this was reported on several reputable sites, which makes it confirmed to everyone but you, who apparently won't believe it unless it's published on WWE.com), I have determined that it was Henry's fault.

What, you don't accept my argument? I did the EXACT same thing you did when you said the other Cruisers are lazy. So something's gotta give.

Rey is one of the best guys backstage. There is nowhere to turn besides the WWE because Rey has to look out for his pay. No one pays as much as the WWE and rey knows this and there is no one that is a competitor in North America that will pay as much. I don't think that there was that much going on.
He's a huge name. TNA would pay him a comparable salary for his namesake. Furthermore, the WWE might even be quite reluctant to let him go even if he did cause a bit of trouble, given his name. That's why they kept RVD signed.

Obviously WWE got permission from Eddie's family, so who is Rey to judge? Rey never did anything bad so he is in the clear, and whenever or not he should step in and fight Orton for doing it is up to debate because Orton was doing it for a storyline. Fight the WWE? they got permission from Eddie's family so there's not that much to do here.
The reports indicate that the family was never clued in on exactly what would happen until it happened. Basically, the WWE told the family half-truths.

Of course, you'll say this was never confirmed because it wasn't on WWE.com. But if you were the WWE, would you publish it? Of course not. But people like Metzer have reported this, and he's well known for getting things right. If you don't accept that, then you're simply being stubborn, which would then negate most of your points.



Of course, you ARE being stubborn and one-sided, which is why most of your points are wrong. And yet you continue to argue, so I've got to guess that you're not a troll. In a one on one live argument, most of the people here (not the ones who resort to only name calling, but basically everyone else) would destroy you in a debate.

[Corkscrewed]

In short: Vermaat continues to take his own assumptions and opinions and use them as fact, but he refuses to accept reputable sources and arguments that go against his point of view, dismissing any such things as invalid. He tries to use academic tactics to support his case, but every instance contains an occassion where he asserts his opinion as fact.

This assertion of one's own opinion as fact while ignoring or dismissing any conflicting points is the basis of Vermaat looking like an illogical and ignorant fool who continues to stubbornly argue a lost cause.

[Kalyx triaD]

Randy Orton's the greatest wrestler alive today.

[Kane Knight]

Kalyx, I thought you were Christian? Don't they frown on blatant homosexuality?

[Kalyx triaD]

Kalyx, I thought you were Christian? Don't they frown on blatant homosexuality?

Ascension, my friend. The dogmatic views of any religion no longer limit me. But if it's all the same to you; I'm still very against man-man love.

[Kane Knight]

It's all the same to me. You are all equally inferior in my eyes. :)

[Kane Knight]

But if you're against homosexuality, why the support for Orton (A gay act in and of itself)?

[Kalyx triaD]

It's no more gay than a guy chanting John Cena's name. Or a guy chanting anybody's name for that matter. For the record, I never chanted anybody's name in my life.

Okay maybe Jay-Z, but everyone else was doing it...

[Kane Knight]

No, chanting Cena's name is pretty fucking gay.

[Kalyx triaD]

No, chanting Cena's name is pretty fucking gay.

I think I'll agree with you today.

[Vermaat]

-nt- entered too early.

[Vermaat]

You guys keep saying how I am stubborn and use my opinion as fact but you do THE SAME THING. Do you work in the WWE? NO! Your knowledge of what REALLY goes on backstage is as good as mine so unless one of you works backstage and is IMPARTIAL, then that can be taken to be worth more. Otherwise we are on a LEVEL playing field, realize THIS.

But now, suddenly after ALL THESE YEARS, WWE will decline in your opinion...if Cena loses. You dismiss all of OUR oppinions, relavent points and facts about WWE's decline as false...but suddenly just because your hero CENA might lose the belt, "WWE WILL GO DOWN A WRONG ROAD THAT CAN LEAD TO THEIR DOWNFALL."


Wrong. You misunderstand. I admitted that WWE has declined once before when JBL was the champ. I only declined that WWE is not leading good business and that they are making "mistakes" in judgement as most of you feel. This is why I explained that the reasons the ratings dropped (I never declined that the ratings dropped) was because of all the fake fans leaving. This is why I mentioned it, I never said WWE never declined. And yes, if WWE does those mistakes at Wrestlemania they will decline for the time being.

Ok, here all in one sentance you contradict yourself. I will put the contradiction in bold so you can see it with your own eyes.

Fans = good reaction.....everyone = HATED IT.


lol !!! nWo were HEELS. HEELS are meant to be hated. When I said that everyone hated them, I meant hated them as heels. This makes them pretty effective heels, so a hated reaction is a GOOD reaction for a heel and the nWo were heels.

This makes absolutely NO GODDAMN SENSE to anyone sane of mind. It's sad, you can't cope with the fact that people actually don't like your hero, so you're brain protects you by developing a blanket of lies to delusionally hide under.


Edge won the title and the ratings went up. TRUE. Because of Edge? In a way, TRUE. Because Edge won the title? FALSE. The ratings went up because Edge promised LIVE SEX. And you know what, sex sells! Mideon could have won the title and promised Live Sex and ratings would go up.

Yes, you based your PERSONAL OPINION off talking to a few people. The key word there asshole is OPINION. Your opinion does not = fact to anyone other than you. Let me put it to you this way, according to your "logic" here, let's say I go and interview a few people your age and race...then turn around and make assumptions and project life changes on 1 million people your age/race, including you.


It's not based on my opinions, it's based on my experience. And guess what, your side of the argument has to be abandonded too then, because you don't have any better source then I do. You too are making judgements why people did this and that. At least my theory plays out logically. I talked to a good pool of people and granted, wCw people were not all like them, but they were a cut away representation of wCw fans. Now, what you said about the issue does not even have THIS backing.

Well, the world the rest of us live in Vermaat...politicians are considered crooks and liars...especially our current President...so yeah, I could see how you'd be flattered.


This is a different argument, but there is nothing seriously wrong with the president. the president is not a "crook" :roll:

Paul Heyman destroyed ECW, just ask WWE. Better yet, don't argue with me...why don't you email WWE and tell them that their opinion is wrong. After all, you're the expert.


It's not my opinion, it's a fact. Okay let's have another example. Let's say you are really a dumb person and you walk around naked in the middle of winter soaked in water. You get sick. Who'se fault is it? Ok, it is your fault for going around naked in water in the middle of winter. However, if it was summer, you would not get sick. Thus, it is also partially the fault of the WEATHER that you got sick. In this case, Paul Heyman is the guy walking around naked and the Weather is the WWE. Sure, ECW went out of business partially because of Heyman, but if there were no WWE around, then they would be in business, thus WWE is part of the reason as well. Simple.

WWE did not mention their role because it's rather obvious.

I think you are confusing "reality" with "happy time." The rest of the world watched Vince depants Bischoff every chance he got.

Vince was depanting him as one character to another. I watched it and I did not observe Vince depant him as being wCw. This is what I SAW.

Like I said, Quality has been down in the WWE when JBL was champ, so you can't say that I never said that. You misunderstand.

The only point you get across when you speak like this is that your grammer and debate skills suck.


Sorry that you could not answer my valid point so you had to focus on my grammar and spelling. Better luck next time.

Key words, "The only explanation I can think of...." This means you don't have the facts, because you DON'T KNOW. You aren't in the WWE, you don't talk to anyone in the WWE, you don't talk to any of the cruiserweights...therefore, YOU DON'T KNOW! Therefore, whatever stupid theory you've come up with, ISN'T A FACT...so stop using it in a debate as such.


You don't have the facts either because you did not observe what happened. We are all speculating it. As far as actual wrestlers, what wrestler will admit to being lazy? What wrestler will admit to it being their fault? No one, so their comments are BIASED.

Unless you have documented proof that you've ever...oh I don't know.... SPOKEN TO VINCE PERSONALLY and gotten HIS OPINION, quit speaking for him as if it's a fact! SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Neither do you. But pure logic dictates that this argument makes sense.

First of all, the West Coast Pop is a seated senton into a Hurricarana. Learn some move's names.

Second of all, why do you think they aren't doing them? Matches in the WWE are almost always booked to the minute. [QUOTE]

The West Coast Pop is the move's name. They don't do them because they're too dangerous and that is true. That is why they need to develop moves that arenm't dangerous, like what Rey did, but still exciting. This is why I respect Rey. I've never heard of Road Agents scripting matches move by move. I know that they script some spots, but not every single match via move by move? Do you have proof of this? However, I do not see why they would screw some wrestlers and not others. I mean, if they scrippted it like you say they do, then wouldn't wrestlers not be valued for their ability to "write" their match in the ring.

Cruiserweights are liabilities if they are allowed to do crazy moves that are only acceptable on indies that don't care for what their wrestlers do. Vince McMahon cares about his wrestlers, that's why he stopped them from making these moves and is hoping that they can come up with safer moves like rey DOES.

There were also reports that Henry did not injure Batista.

[QUOTE]The West Coast Pop is a springboard hurricanrana. It's done by plenty of wrestlers in Japan, and in Indy Feds. I hope you do not argue that because Rey is the only one who does it in the WWE, that means he's innovative, because then you'd be missing the whole "don't use other people's finishers" code.

London and Super Crazy do lots of rope interaction moves too. How about Super Crazy's rope switch into a falling moonsault? Or when he arm wrenches an opponent, holds onto the arm, leaps up onto the top rope then leaps into a head scissors?


Rey brough the move to the WWE. If everyone is using it, why didn't anyone bring it in? Because they didn't care but Rey did and he brought this innovative move to the WWE. Now he is going to be world champion and is well rewarded. Could it be something other that innovation, and just Rey picking up the move and using it in the WWE first? Yes and that would be SMART. Maybe the others wrestlers should start bringing moves into the WWE and maybe they will be like Rey.

I will admit, MNM are very innovative wrestlers and the best tag team in the WWE right now.

Super Crazy is quite impressive as well. He seems to not be held back by "big bad vince" and neither do MNM eh. This makes your theory of big bad vince limiting wrestlers seem a little off because there are so many that he doesn't limit. Taker's move is cool, a classic, an ARTIFACT from another generation.

What?! That's why he fired Juventud Guerrera, right? Juventud is one of the best cruisers in the world, but he's an idiot, and his backstage antics cost him his job. However, by your logic, Juventud would still be in the WWE because he has "potential."

There's this thing called politics. I don't know how old you are, but perhaps you are too young to know what this is. The WWE (as well as many companies) is dominated by politics. This has been documented by numerous wrestlers who've been with the company and wrestlers who are still in the company. Of course the company isn't going to admit to that. If you were doing something shady, would you report it to the world?

The fact that you cling to this idea that only news from the official site is valid is prepostrous. PWInsider and 1Wrestling are reputed news agencies who have consistently proven to provide reliable and accurate news. Jamie Noble was fired because he failed a drug test, but this was never reported on WWE.com. Does that mean it's not true? Because Noble will tell you himself that that's what happened. How can "your only way of explaining" Cruiserweight "drop" in quality be a valid argument, but wrestling news web site reports be false? What makes your word better than their's?


WWE won't keep someone JUST because they have potential. But that can be one of the big reasons. Juventud was fired because he was making trouble backstage and I tend to believe that. It is not official and we don't know so we might as well make guesses, but based on what I heard about him, he sounds pretty crazy. WWE will not keep crazy workers around.

I know about politics, that's the trouble with listening to wrestlers, they get political like in wCw. WWE is affected a bit by politics but not as much as everybody says. If it was, we would have the higher politicians holding titles all the time, like in TNA with jarret. HHH hasn't held the title in a while, The Undertaker hasn't held a title in a long time. It's there, but the wrestlers tend to overstate it's impact because I don't see the top politicians holding all the success.

What I see in the cruiserweight drop of quality is observation. Something I actually see. I do not see any prove of Vince holding them down because not all are being held down. Look at Rey and Super Crazy and MNM. This is why I think there is another explanation and going by human character, I will say they get a little lazy. Is this 100% true guranteed? No, but neither does your argument of big bad vince.

I don't believe the "big" news sites because they show bias against Vince and althought they are often right, they are also often wrong and untrue.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. But he had POTENTIAL! Why didn't Vince keep him if he obviously was a great wrestler? You just negated your own point here.

Furthermore, you can't have mic skills if you're not given time to talk, or a character to portray. If Rey Mysterio was portrayed as a silent Mexican field worker, he'd have gone down the same path. He was on a "Japanese Yakuza" storyline with Tajiri, but that lasted all of two weeks. How can you even blame him?


He did have potential. And vince did keep him, he kept him for a while. Akio never improved and Vince isn't going to keep you forever even with potential.

I firmly believe that if he could talk, WWE would have let him. What is the point in WWE not letting him talk if he can? If he couldn't, then of course they would not let him talk because it would be bad. He can practice talking on house shows and such or just in his own free time. WWE can't put him on T.V when he can't talk.

No, he was simply not used. You can have the best talent in the world, but if you're not being put in consistent storylines, what can you do? He had a thing going with Shelton, then Shelton went to RAW. Then Haas was shuffled around different tag partners. And even if he had character lack... this still defeats your first argument: that Vince keeps wrestlers around because they have potential. If this was the case, Haas would never have been let go in the first place. Therefore, there must be another reason.


He was used. You contradict yourself here. First you say he was not used, but then you say how he was used with Shelton and then he had all these various partners. I remember him being used so to say that he wasn't doesn't really work. Vince kept Haas for a while with his potential, but Vince can't keep paying these guys just for their potential so after a while you are released.

You do realize he could do a senton bomb, right? You do realize he had that unique Widow Maker finisher, right? You do realize he was very quick and athletic, right?

Probably not, because he never go to display those skills in the WWE. In WCW, he was a tremendous athlete. In the WWE, he played second fiddle behind Rod Piper.


I did not watch wCw so if what you say is true, then I was wrong to say that he has no wrestling skill. However, as far as his WWE career was concerned, he was a generic hoss and never showed those skills as you admit. But I don't see where you get that he was not allowed to. Why was he not allowed to while others were?

[Vermaat]

(had to put in 2 posts)

Okay, he was good to you. But that's the thing... you're dealing with people who probably know more than you. So you can't just say that your opinion is fact.


Music is music. Music is subjective, the only thing that can be said is if it's music or not. Same for art. The rest is left up to the opinion. In the opinion of the critic, Cena's CD was bad. In my opinion it is good. Neither of us is right, that is how it works. Music is entirely subjective but that's an entire argument on it's own.

As far as your example, I would say that neither of us would be right. If the fans think O'Haire is cool because he is a hoss then that's fine with me. It's his opinion that he is cool because he is big and I cannot argue with it. However if he was to make a statement that O'Haire is a good wrestler because he is big, then there might be an argument. And the hoss can be a good entertainer on the whole even if he can't wrestle worth a damn, for example if he is like Roccky on the mic.


But lets ignore that for a bit. You're misinterpreting these textbooks. The peer pressure you're talkiing about is direct peer pressure. People are directly inviting you to join them in an activity. In a crowd atmosphere like that, the "pressure" is at best indirect. If you chant with a crowd, it's not because you're being coerced or prodded to do it. It's because you feel like it as well. At best, you chant along because you think it's a hoot. Say the crowd chants "Cena sucks!" and you go along. Obviously, you can't like Cena, or else you wouldn't join it at all. The fact that you participate indicates that you share some sort of apathy or dislike towards him. After all, if you're a fan of your local sports team, but you're at the venue of their opponent, and everyone else chants against your team, would you go along? Of course not, because you support your team.

However, if you disliked that team or didn't care, then of course you'd go along with it.

If your peer pressure thing was right, then rioters would be able to use that excuse all the time. "I broke into the store because everyone else was doing it too... I really support my neighborhood though!" That's not valid. And neither is your point.


You would admit for going against a crowd because that's admirable, but you won't admit going with it because it is not seen as good. As far as fans participating, I will give to you that you make a good point that you need to have a degree of apathy to go with those "cool" guys in the crowd. That's true, a true fan of WRESTLING would not go along with them. But not a lot of people are like that, a lot of people go to watch and they don't think about it so they're easy to sway. They don't even think when they boo cena because they don't think deeply about wrestling, they go with the rest of the people.

As far as breaking into a store, that's law. Psychologically, is saying "other people were doing it so I broke in with them because they pressured me to do it but I really support the neighboorhood" valid? Yes it is psychologically valid to say that and it can happen to anyone. Is it legally valid? No.

You're right. However, using my "logic" and "reasoning," given the nature of the injury (on the tricep area) and his prior history of injurying other wrestlers (accidentally, but injuring them nonetheless) and the fact that it occurred when Mark gave him a big splash (this was reported on several reputable sites, which makes it confirmed to everyone but you, who apparently won't believe it unless it's published on WWE.com), I have determined that it was Henry's fault.


Since Mark Henry was involved in the match with Batista and the injury took place in that match, then you can logically assume that Mark Henry caused it. That's right. However, this assumption is negated by the fact that Batista was already prone to injury and that in order to make it you went by websites, some of which did report that Henry did not cause it.

He's a huge name. TNA would pay him a comparable salary for his namesake. Furthermore, the WWE might even be quite reluctant to let him go even if he did cause a bit of trouble, given his name. That's why they kept RVD signed.


See the trouble with this is that TNA does not have this kind of budget. WWE pays a lot and TNA simply can't pay as much. Why do you think Shannon Moore signed back with the WWE? Because TNA was not paying him as much as the WWE. I never heard on RVD being in trouble so please elaborate on that. Unless you mean that time when he worked stiff and dangerous and busted open a bunch of guys, but he corrected that.

The reports indicate that the family was never clued in on exactly what would happen until it happened. Basically, the WWE told the family half-truths.


This is interesting. I do not believe the things I read on the internet unless it comes from an official source. If WWE did give the family half truths and did not warn them of what would happen, then WWE was in the WRONG. Of course the WWE would not report them, so we are forced to go by rumors. However, if this is what has happened, why didn't Chavo Guerrero, a member of the family, do anything to protest?

This kind of weakens the idea that WWE never let them know what was to happen. But if it did, the WWE is WRONG. I will not argue for them here.

Of course, you ARE being stubborn and one-sided, which is why most of your points are wrong.

I am not any more stubborn then you are. As far as a live debate, I do not believe I have anything to fear from anyone here as my points are valid ones.

In short: Vermaat continues to take his own assumptions and opinions and use them as fact, but he refuses to accept reputable sources and arguments that go against his point of view, dismissing any such things as invalid.


In short, Corkscrewed, is unable to argue valid points with Vermaat so he resorts to attacking Vermaat's character. This only shows his weakness, as he was unable to validly defeat any points that Vermaat was making and makes incorrect assumptions such as "Vermaat asserts his opinion as fact" which is not true as Vermaat backed his opinion with logic and fact.

[Kane Knight]

Yeah, using documented information is the same thing as passing off opinion and wishful thinking as fact. :rofl:

I'd love to see you and Warrior feud. It'd be hilarious. Incoherent as fuck, but HI-Lar-ious.

[Indifferent Clox]

the king is coming

[Skippord]

Alright I am going to E-Cock Slap the next person to make a long quotey post

[Skippord]

Or E-Cradle Shock them

[Corkscrewed]

I'm not going to waste much more time arguing with you, because honestly, I have better things to do. But c'mon... you can't honestly say that Rey's consistently safer. Everything in wrestling has a risk. Rey could injure himself if he slips on a 619. His springboard hurricanrana can give a severe neck injury if taken wrong or botched. He does a moonsault, which itself can harm people if taken or done wrong.

I think it all comes down to this: you feel that Rey is performing better than all the other Cruisers, but I don't really see it... at least not as drastically as you imply. Again, you constantly preach innovation, but Rey's been doing the same moves he's done for the past four years.

Why didn't anyone else bring the moves he did to the WWE? Because he was among the first Cruisers! He had the benefit of establishing his moveset first! Out of the original WWE stock of Cruisers, you've only got Rey, Chavo, Helms, and Funaki left.

And here's your game back at you:
See the trouble with this is that TNA does not have this kind of budget.
How do you know this? Have you seen it? Do you work for TNA? How do you know they don't have money stockpiled somewhere, or reserve funds to use on big stars? This information isn't found on the TNA site, so how can you argue this?

Finally, your continued assertion of the crowd mentality reduces wrestling fans to little kids. It's like bullying, where a few kids pick on one guy, then the rest of the class joins in because they don't know better. So if wrestling fans don't know better, how can they actually like Cena, as you originally argued? You can't say that the booers are only a bunch of sour apples, and most everyone else really likes Cena, then turn around and say they don't know any better. If they don't know any better, how can you say they like him in the first place?

[Skippord]

Alright thats it Corky E-Cradle Shock

[Blitz]

Cruiserweights are liabilities if they are allowed to do crazy moves that are only acceptable on indies that don't care for what their wrestlers do. Vince McMahon cares about his wrestlers, that's why he stopped them from making these moves and is hoping that they can come up with safer moves like rey DOES.

Did you watch Saturday Night's Main Event? I guess Vince doesn't care about his son then, letting him take a superplex off a laddder to the outside through 2 tables.

Have you ever seen the Canadian Destroyer? Looks like it could kill you, but I've yet to hear about anyone getting seriously hurt from it. Because Petey Williams, and the guys he does the move to, know what they are doing. What makes move dangerous are the guys executing them, not the actual moves themselves. Sure, a powerbomb off the top rope is riskier than a vertical suplex, but it's about conditioning and training.

For God's sake, Triple H tore his quad walking across the ring. Should WWE ban walking?

[Skippord]

No they should just ban Vince McMahon,Kevin Nash,and HHH from walking

[ddpBANG]

Kevin Nash can't walk... hear he's injured again.

[Kane Knight]

Did you watch Saturday Night's Main Event? I guess Vince doesn't care about his son then, letting him take a superplex off a laddder to the outside through 2 tables.

Have you ever seen the Canadian Destroyer? Looks like it could kill you, but I've yet to hear about anyone getting seriously hurt from it. Because Petey Williams, and the guys he does the move to, know what they are doing. What makes move dangerous are the guys executing them, not the actual moves themselves. Sure, a powerbomb off the top rope is riskier than a vertical suplex, but it's about conditioning and training.

For God's sake, Triple H tore his quad walking across the ring. Should WWE ban walking?

The best part is, making wrestling safer hasn't reduced the number of injuries in wrestling. Not significantly, anyway. in short, making wrestling safer has not made wrestling safer.

Go figure.

But the thing is, professional, trained atheletes in good shape are a bad thing.

[Vermaat]

I'm not going to waste much more time arguing with you, because honestly, I have better things to do. But c'mon... you can't honestly say that Rey's consistently safer. Everything in wrestling has a risk. Rey could injure himself if he slips on a 619. His springboard hurricanrana can give a severe neck injury if taken wrong or botched. He does a moonsault, which itself can harm people if taken or done wrong.



Every single move can hurt someone. That is true. Even a punch can get someone injured in the WWE. However some moves are more dangerous then others and some moves have a much higher injury rate then others. People have been hurt often by the piledriver, that is why it is restricted. I haven't seen anyone get hurt by the 6-1-9 yet, so that move has a LOW injury rate and is thus safe.

Yes, Rey has been doing the same moves, but he brought them into the WWE when no one else was doing them and I often see him find creative new ways to use them against opponents. He is especially cool against big guys cause he finds innovative ways to take it at em!

And Rey was not the first cruiser. Before Rey there were many more like Funaki, Taka, Christian, Essa Rios, Jerry Lynn and others and they didn't pull out moves like Rey Mysterio did. They had all the chances to do all these moves if they could, but they did not. Choice? Ability? We do not know.

How do you know this? Have you seen it? Do you work for TNA? How do you know they don't have money stockpiled somewhere, or reserve funds to use on big stars? This information isn't found on the TNA site, so how can you argue this?


I don't know for sure, but I can make an assumption based on the fact that TNA does not seem to be able to sign big stars and as we know Big Stars cost big money, so I make an assumption, that since they are not signing big stars, they probably do not have the money for them. Also, TNA is a small company and cannot get a good timeslot. If they had good money reserves, I am sure they would be given a better timeslot.

Finally, your continued assertion of the crowd mentality reduces wrestling fans to little kids. It's like bullying, where a few kids pick on one guy, then the rest of the class joins in because they don't know better. So if wrestling fans don't know better, how can they actually like Cena, as you originally argued? You can't say that the booers are only a bunch of sour apples, and most everyone else really likes Cena, then turn around and say they don't know any better. If they don't know any better, how can you say they like him in the first place?

This still works if you understand what I am saying here. I am saying that these people do like Cena. They like him as a face but there are those in the crowd who legitimately do not like Cena, a small group of angry fans that in general, don't like many stars. Thus, when they exert their influence on the Cena fans, a lot of the Cena fans buckle not because they don't know better, but because their psychology is weak and they give in to what others around them are doing. They like Cena, but they also like to go with the crowd. They don't take the business seriously because serious fans will cheer cena.

Did you watch Saturday Night's Main Event? I guess Vince doesn't care about his son then, letting him take a superplex off a laddder to the outside through 2 tables.

Have you ever seen the Canadian Destroyer? Looks like it could kill you, but I've yet to hear about anyone getting seriously hurt from it. Because Petey Williams, and the guys he does the move to, know what they are doing. What makes move dangerous are the guys executing them, not the actual moves themselves. Sure, a powerbomb off the top rope is riskier than a vertical suplex, but it's about conditioning and training.


HBK was the one doing the move to Shane. Is the spot dangerous? Yes, but I am sure Shane trained for it before and HBK is one of the safest workers in the business. Vince cares for his workers, but there is an amount of risk in wrestling in everything you do. But Vince knows HBK is very safe so the risk was minimized.
I agree about the guy making the move being a factor, but some moves are just unsafe no matter who does them.

Walking across the ring did get HHH injured, but overall, in wrestling, walking across the ring has a lot injury rate.

The best part is, making wrestling safer hasn't reduced the number of injuries in wrestling. Not significantly, anyway. in short, making wrestling safer has not made wrestling safer.

Go figure.

But the thing is, professional, trained atheletes in good shape are a bad thing.

But who knows? If Piledrivers were still around, who knows how many more Wrestlers could have gone out with serious neck injuries? That decision has reduced neck injuries I believe, because I have not seen as many wrestlers out with neck injuries as from the era when piledrivers were common.

And I think profoesional trained athletes in good shape are a good thing.

[Shadow]

I think I can give a valid and concise opinion of everyone of Vermaat's posts.

Mr. Vermaat, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Kane Knight]

But who knows? If Piledrivers were still around, who knows how many more Wrestlers could have gone out with serious neck injuries? That decision has reduced neck injuries I believe, because I have not seen as many wrestlers out with neck injuries as from the era when piledrivers were common.

And I think profoesional trained athletes in good shape are a good thing.

Yeah, neck injuries could be worse. And piledrivers could have summoned forth the devil, who would banish all wrestlers to the ninth circle of Hell...

Meanwhile, "safer" wrestling has lead to injuries, especially from unprofessional wrestlers like Mark Henry (The guy was an unprofessional Olympic competitor, he's unprofessional as a wrestler) who were often the cause in the first place.

So why is wrestling so much more dangerous now? I mean, if the same serious injuries seem to be sustained when removing high risk moves from the pool, that means the remaining pool is somehow magically more dangerous.

And LOL at you saying trained professional atheletes is a good thing.

Also, when there neck injuries go down, they shouldn't simply transfer to other body parts. Back injuries are up, and can be just as serious.

[Corkscrewed]

Vermaat, you gotta stick to your guns one way or another. You say Vince cares, then you say some wrestlers train for riskier moves and are thus allowed to do them. That makes less sense than you think. If it was all about care, woudln't Vince just eliminate dangerous bumps period? After all, the best way to fight an injury is to prevent it (just as you say).

I mean, if you say Shane trains for that bump, then why can't people train to receive pile drivers properly? It's not that hard... take them on a very soft stunt mat so that even if they're done wrong, no one gets hurt.

HBK doing the move the Shane makes no difference. It's still dangerous!!! If HBK did a pile driver to people, would you say that's okay?

See, this is why you're being trashed. You're saying two different things wihtout even realizing it. And if you try to argue against what I just said, then it proves you're being delusional, because you can't pick apart an argument better than I just did (not that it was hard).

Of course, you might just accuse me of being stubborn or something. :lol:

[Kane Knight]

I think he knows exactly how much he's contradicting himself.

[Extreme Angle]

kalyx triad sucks the cock and is gay :yes:

[V]

no matter how many times i read it, this thread title never gets old

[Xero]

no matter how many times i read it, this thread title never gets old
The title obviously MAKED this thread.

:shifty:
Yeah, I used "Maked" on purpose.

[Corkscrewed]

MADE

:shifty:

[Arnold HamNegger]

In short: Vermaat continues to take his own assumptions and opinions and use them as fact, but he refuses to accept reputable sources and arguments that go against his point of view, dismissing any such things as invalid. He tries to use academic tactics to support his case, but every instance contains an occassion where he asserts his opinion as fact.

This assertion of one's own opinion as fact while ignoring or dismissing any conflicting points is the basis of Vermaat looking like an illogical and ignorant fool who continues to stubbornly argue a lost cause.


(Been sick a few days, so just catching up.)

Corkscrewed, this statement is 100% CORRECT! That's why it's pointless to keep this debate going with Vermaat. The dude just back tracks himself into a corner with his own bullshit...then walks across all the bullshit and pretends none of it gets on his shoes. As long as he keeps using his "logic" as a rational producer of "facts" and defense for his arguments, this can go on forever.

[Corkscrewed]

Thanks. :y:

[Kane Knight]

This thread is MAKE IT OR BREAK IT BAH GAWD for Vermaat.

[The One]

If that's the case, then I think Vermaat is in the process of breaking it.

[Kane Knight]

If that's the case, then I think Vermaat dun broke it.

[Kane Knight]

This...Is the Kolbert Report!

[The One]

LOL

[Kane Knight]

On a scale of Awesome to Godlike, how do you rate John Cena's championship?

[The One]

John Cena: Great Champion...or GREATEST Champion?

[Kane Knight]

I'll put you down for Godlike.

[XL]

Guys have you noticed that Vermat has yet to grace this page?

Does this mean someone has done the humane thing and banned the pleb?

If not may I suggest that this be done.

Or that all those half intelligent posters out there just completely ignore anything he posts!

I mean come on! There are some guys on here who have great opinions and make intellectual posts that I love to read. All of this talent (for lack of a better word) is being wasted on this ridiculous CUNT (for lack of a better word)

[Kane Knight]

I think he forgot his password.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I can't believe I missed this thread! I've missed out on some good discussion. Alright, first I'm going to try and take some new approaches to the old arguments Vermaat presented:

You claim Akio can't talk. Why? I've heard reports that he can talk fine to people before and after shows. He's doing a promo segment in ROH soon. I think it's a part of the Straight Shootin' Series, or something.

You claim the cruiserweights are lazy? That is why Paul London VISIBLY puts 110% effort into every move he does? Watch his dropsault in the Fatal Fourway Match this past Velocity. The guy really wanted to get it noticed.

Another way to disprove your crazy lazy theory is to simply point out that the cruiserweights are stuck on Velocity. If pulling out "innovative" moves means they get World Title shots, don't you think they would have done it by now?

You want evidence that the WWE scripts the cruiserweights' matches for them? Paul London's standing shooting star press. I am not a trained professional wrestler, but wouldn't a standing SSP be harder to pull of due to the lack of time to adjust? If London had a choice between the visually impressive leap into the air before graciously landing on his opponent which impressive momentum, or flipping pointlessly for a two count looking move, which do you think he would choose?

Sliced Bread #2 is more innovative than the 619. The 619 has been done for years as a taunt. Hardly innovative. The Shiranui looks like it could kill someone.

Every match these guys get, they try to get the fans to take notice of them, but you are just too blind to see it. That is not an insult, that is fact. As for why the WWE would limit these guys? Because they don't want two little guys trained by Shawn Michaels showing up Triple H or John Cena in terms of ring ability. Sad, but true.

You say that Randy Orton is a bastard for saying what he said. The guy probably has no control over what he says. I doubt he would choose to say it. I'm not trying to bash Rey Mysterio here, because I am not close to the Guerrero family and have no clue what they wanted, but I find Rey equally at fault (if there is fault) as Randy Orton. You can't accuse one and not the other.

If Rey Mysterio had refused the angle, he would have been fine. The media was all over Eddie Guerrero's death, so Rey doing something with morals attached to it and leaving the company would not have looked good for the WWE.

Now for your John Cena arguement:

I could sit here all day and point out the same thing other people have, but I am simply going to say this. Assuming your "entire arenas are at the mercy of a small group of fans" is true (and that is a huge unrealistic assumption to make), then don't you think it would be smart for the WWE to target these small groups?

One of the first things you learn about business is "cool hunting", and how you target your product at people who can persuade other people that your product is "cool". If the "cool" thing is to boo John Cena, then the WWE would be smart to turn him heel. Fighting the fans which "control everything" assuming they exist on such a powerful scale as you say (I'm not doubting their are guys who start "Cena Sucks" just because they think it's funny), is stupid, because in reality you're only preventing your business from making money.

I don't see your logic in keeping John Cena pushed as the top face of the company, I really don't.

You mention "TRADITIONAL". I don't know what you mean. Are you assuming there is only one way to build a face? Are you trying to say that the Rock 'n' Wrestling era was the only true era, and that the Attitude era was all wrong? Did it ever occur to you that fans broke away from "TRADITIONAL" for a reason, in the first place?

My uncle stopped watching wrestling a while ago "because Stone Cold Steve Austin didn't drink beer anymore". My cousin stopped because it "got shit". Are they not TRUE WRESTLING FANS? I fail to see your logic there.

1) They stopped watching for reasons, not because it stopped being cool. Both stopped watching after the "cool" fans left.

2) It should not be the fans job to change themselves to fit the WWE product. The WWE product should change to fit the fans.

Your logic says that if Coca Cola stops selling soft drinks it is because of the consumer, and that they are not worth the company's attention. Your logic says no investigation or no modification to the product is needed.

[Chavo Classic]

Vermaat is beginning to regret pissing off fans who live in their mother's basement and spend twelve hours a day on wrestling websites and forums.

[tucsonspeed6]

fans who live in their mother's basement and spend twelve hours a day on wrestling websites and forums

Whatever happened to you getting kidnapped and ransomed back to your family?

[Kane Knight]

Your logic says that if Coca Cola stops selling soft drinks it is because of the consumer, and that they are not worth the company's attention. Your logic says no investigation or no modification to the product is needed.

To be fair, if you like WWE's programming right now (And some people love the wigger John Cena who makes poopy jokes and sucks up to the fans), why would you argue they should change?

Assuming he is a legitimate tardboy, of course.

[Kane Knight]

Vermaat is beginning to regret pissing off fans who live in their mother's basement and spend twelve hours a day on wrestling websites and forums.

Come on, this guy's a wrestling forum Godsend. Even the most retarded poster or n00biest newb can trash this guy. Who would be pissed off at that?

[Schoenauer]

Guys have you noticed that Vermat has yet to grace this page?

Does this mean someone has done the humane thing and banned the pleb?

If not may I suggest that this be done.

Or that all those half intelligent posters out there just completely ignore anything he posts!

I mean come on! There are some guys on here who have great opinions and make intellectual posts that I love to read. All of this talent (for lack of a better word) is being wasted on this ridiculous CUNT (for lack of a better word)

This thread was make it or break it for Vermacelli... unfortunately the result was break it for him.

[Xero]

Guys have you noticed that Vermat has yet to grace this page?

Does this mean someone has done the humane thing and banned the pleb?

If not may I suggest that this be done.

Or that all those half intelligent posters out there just completely ignore anything he posts!

I mean come on! There are some guys on here who have great opinions and make intellectual posts that I love to read. All of this talent (for lack of a better word) is being wasted on this ridiculous CUNT (for lack of a better word)
No, he's not banned yet, but when he sees this post he'll play the "I have a life" card.

[Arnold HamNegger]

If Vermaat doesn't admit finally that he contradicts himself after the following example, I will give up. This guy is too much:

WCW could not handle the competion because all of their top stars were OLD and they were listening to the fans too much, like they kept nWo around because the fans cheered it.

lol !!! nWo were HEELS. HEELS are meant to be hated. When I said that everyone hated them, I meant hated them as heels.

When a crowd truly hates a heel, they don't "cheer" them. Thus, the blatent contradiction of your two statements. THe FACT is that the crowd bood their asses off at the NWO by the end. Was it because they were still effective heels? Partially. Was it because fans were sick to death of them? Partially. Either way the fans BOO'D them. Fans did not "cheer" them as you claim. You argue and contradict your own point.....of course when you said "cheering" them, I "misunderstood" you right? :roll:

Edge won the title and the ratings went up. TRUE. Because of Edge? In a way, TRUE. Because Edge won the title? FALSE. The ratings went up because Edge promised LIVE SEX.

Listen, the live sex was ONE night. Edge had higher ratings than Cena THROUGHOUT THE DURATION OF HIM HAVING THE BELT. So this flushes your argument right down the toilet.

It's not based on my opinions, it's based on my experience. And guess what, your side of the argument has to be abandonded too then, because you don't have any better source then I do. You too are making judgements why people did this and that. At least my theory plays out logically. I talked to a good pool of people and granted, wCw people were not all like them, but they were a cut away representation of wCw fans. Now, what you said about the issue does not even have THIS backing.

For one, I don't need to ask anyone's opinion on what WCW was like because I actually watched it. You didn't, so no...you couldn't possibly have based your opinion on "your experience." Another thing, the source I was getting my information from is a little DVD called "The Monday Night Wars." This talks in detail about why WCW went out of business. This CLEARLY is not a better source for the argument then your "theory" based on interviewing a few teenagers. Damn, what was I thinking? :roll:

[Kane Knight]

Listen, the live sex was ONE night. Edge had higher ratings than Cena THROUGHOUT THE DURATION OF HIM HAVING THE BELT. So this flushes your argument right down the toilet.

FALSE.

By the end of his reign, Edge's Raw ratings were the SAME as Cena's. This was addressed, and several people even admitted they were wrong when they saw the REAL Neilsen ratings at that point.

It's bullshit to say that they stayed up, because they were back down to their original ratings over a course of THREE FUCKING WEEKS.

[Arnold HamNegger]

FALSE.

By the end of his reign, Edge's Raw ratings were the SAME as Cena's. This was addressed, and several people even admitted they were wrong when they saw the REAL Neilsen ratings at that point.

It's bullshit to say that they stayed up, because they were back down to their original ratings over a course of THREE FUCKING WEEKS.

Well, I haven't heard that. I stand corrected then if it's true. All I've gone by is what I've heard from WWE and they advertise Edge as the "Highest Rated Champion in the Past Five Years." I've heard this on TV a couple times. I guess I'm just a jackass for believing anything WWE says in the first place.

[Kane Knight]

He was using that before they even had ratings on Raw. He was using it on the first Raw after he won. He was using the figures of PPV rates and WWE.com visits.

[Kane Knight]

Also, that first Raw was legitimately highly rated, which probably counts for the highest rating in 5 years.

[Savio]

I wasn't totally because of promised sex either I'm sure alot of people said "CENA FINALLY LOST THE TITLE!" to others which brought it up.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Also, that first Raw was legitimately highly rated, which probably counts for the highest rating in 5 years.

Do you know if the ratings were higher than Cena's the Raw after the Live Sex episode? That's really an important factor. If they're higher, that still blows the "Live Sex Only" theory out the window.

[V]

Arnold Ham Nigger

[Kane Knight]

Do you know if the ratings were higher than Cena's the Raw after the Live Sex episode? That's really an important factor. If they're higher, that still blows the "Live Sex Only" theory out the window.
It went down a bit, but it was still higher than Cena's, yes. But one week later, it was back to the pre-NYR ratings.

The problem is, you're looking at like a .6 difference, and to lose that in 3 weeks kind of disproves the notion that Edge was a better draw.

[Arnold HamNegger]

It went down like a full point, but it was still higher than Cena's, yes. But one week later, it was back to the pre-NYR ratings.

Still, that's 2 weeks higher than Cena and shows that WWE's product as a whole did nothing to keep the viewers when they had them back. You can't blame Edge for that because his ratings never fell below Cena's. I'm really suprised that WWE was willing to put that "Highest Rated Champion in the Past Five Years" promo on TV, because that makes HHH look bad too. Should be interesting to see the ratings after Mania when HHH has the strap.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Arnold Ham Nigger

Gonad3K

[Kane Knight]

Still, that's 2 weeks higher than Cena and shows that WWE's product as a whole did nothing to keep the viewers when they had them back. You can't blame Edge for that because his ratings never fell below Cena's. I'm really suprised that WWE was willing to put that "Highest Rated Champion in the Past Five Years" promo on TV, because that makes HHH look bad too. Should be interesting to see the ratings after Mania when HHH has the strap.

2 weeks higher than Cena, at least one by a margin of like .2 or .3 (I don't remember, they don't keep their ratings up for long), the other after which live sex was promised.

Further, not being worse than a face who couldn't get people to cheer him isn't saying much for your own star power. Edge ended up with the same ratings as the man who couldn't draw a face pop to save his life. HAd they stayed even a little above Cena's before they swapped it back to him, you'd have a decent point, but within a week, ratings were almost back to normal.

[Rey-Rey]

RAW Ratings

January 2, 2006 (3.7)
January 9, 2006 (4.3) <-- First RAW with Edge as champ, Live Sex episode
January 16, 2006 (4.3)
January 23, 2006 (4.5)
January 30, 2006 (4.5) <-- After Royal Rumble when Cena regained title
February 6, 2006 (4.5)
February 16, 2006 (3.3) <-- Monday had the Dog Show
February 20, 2006 (4.0)
February 27, 2006 (4.0)
March 6, 2006 (4.0)
March 13, 2006 (4.1)

Source: Wrestling Information Archive (http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm)

[Kane Knight]

Ku Klux Kane

I felt left out. :'(

[Kane Knight]

RAW Ratings

January 2, 2006 (3.7)
January 9, 2006 (4.3) <-- First RAW with Edge as champ, Live Sex episode
January 16, 2006 (4.3)
January 23, 2006 (4.5)
January 30, 2006 (4.5) <-- After Royal Rumble when Cena regained title
February 6, 2006 (4.5)
February 16, 2006 (3.3) <-- Monday had the Dog Show
February 20, 2006 (4.0)
February 27, 2006 (4.0)
March 6, 2006 (4.0)
March 13, 2006 (4.1)

Source: Wrestling Information Archive (http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm)

Fucking A, those NUMBERS are WRONG. Retards keep posting them, but they conflicted with the ratings as put forth by Neilsen Media.

March 13, for example, is listed on Nielsen's site as a 3.4. It's on their site. You can't take the ratings off another site more seriously. Sit down. Shut the fuck up. And go. The fuck. Away.

[Kalyx triaD]

This thread getting this far says alot more about you guys than anything you can say against Vermaat.

[Kane Knight]

Your constant attempts in this thread say more about you than the rest of us.

[Vermaat]

Yeah, neck injuries could be worse. And piledrivers could have summoned forth the devil, who would banish all wrestlers to the ninth circle of Hell...


I do not see wrestling as being more dangerous now. It appears to be that the new regulations have reduced the number of serious injuries.

Also, when there neck injuries go down, they shouldn't simply transfer to other body parts. Back injuries are up, and can be just as serious.

I haven't noticed back injuries being up. If they are, then moves should be regulated more.

Vermaat, you gotta stick to your guns one way or another. You say Vince cares, then you say some wrestlers train for riskier moves and are thus allowed to do them. That makes less sense than you think. If it was all about care, woudln't Vince just eliminate dangerous bumps period? After all, the best way to fight an injury is to prevent it (just as you say).


Yes it is, but some moves can be trained for. This is wrestling and everything is dangerous in WWE. However, some moves you can train for to make them a lot more safe, like, the spot that was talked about. However other moves, no matter how much you train for still have a really high risk. There is a threshold for how dangerous a move is an some moves BREAK that thresholD.

On a scale of Awesome to Godlike, how do you rate John Cena's championship?

Awesome. He is not Stone Cold yet.

I mean come on! There are some guys on here who have great opinions and make intellectual posts that I love to read. All of this talent (for lack of a better word) is being wasted on this ridiculous CUNT (for lack of a better word)

I think you have some homework to do for your 6th grade class kid.

You claim Akio can't talk. Why? I've heard reports that he can talk fine to people before and after shows. He's doing a promo segment in ROH soon. I think it's a part of the Straight Shootin' Series, or something.


He obviously wasn't talking in the WWE. And there's a difference between talking to people and talking to huge crowds because when you're just talking to a few people it's different. It is easier to talk to one person with a camera then a large crowd. Also, I am interested how he performs in his segment in roh. Now that he is in a small indy fed, I think he has decided to improve. A lot of guys do and get back in the WWE like Palumbo.

You claim the cruiserweights are lazy? That is why Paul London VISIBLY puts 110% effort into every move he does? Watch his dropsault in the Fatal Fourway Match this past Velocity. The guy really wanted to get it noticed.

Another way to disprove your crazy lazy theory is to simply point out that the cruiserweights are stuck on Velocity. If pulling out "innovative" moves means they get World Title shots, don't you think they would have done it by now?



I do not see 110% effort. It was good, but it was not Mysterio level of effort.

Yes, they are put on Velocity because WWE can't put them on other shows all the time. Sometimes they are on SD, sometimes velocity. And just being innovative is not going to give you a world title shot. You have to be innovative, good in the ring, get a good reaction and have a great character.

You want evidence that the WWE scripts the cruiserweights' matches for them? Paul London's standing shooting star press.

Actually the standing SSP is more impressive because less people do it.

Sliced Bread #2 is more innovative than the 619.

No way, Slice Bread #2 is a dudley dog, it was done before. 619 was not done in the WWE before mysterio.

Because they don't want two little guys trained by Shawn Michaels showing up Triple H or John Cena

Then why allow Rey to do the same?

You say that Randy Orton is a bastard for saying what he said. The guy probably has no control over what he says.

Orton could not say it. Same argument that you use for Mysterio, except I don't see anything wrong in what Mysterio said.

I could sit here all day and point out the same thing other people have, but I am simply going to say this. Assuming your "entire arenas are at the mercy of a small group of fans" is true (and that is a huge unrealistic assumption to make), then don't you think it would be smart for the WWE to target these small groups?


No, because these guys are TROUBLEMAKERS. If WWE tries to target them, then they will boo everything WWE throws at them and screw the company for fun. These fans don't know what they want, except that they want to screw the company with their reaction.

You mention "TRADITIONAL". I don't know what you mean. Are you assuming there is only one way to build a face? Are you trying to say that the Rock 'n' Wrestling era was the only true era, and that the Attitude era was all wrong? Did it ever occur to you that fans broke away from "TRADITIONAL" for a reason, in the first place?


Attitude is fine, but I think TRADITIONAL works well as well. I am not saying it was the only true era, but it is the most down to the basics way of doing things and I think that with all these characters we had, it's time to go to the TRADITIONAL way. Fans didn't break away, WWE changed the product in an experiment.

My uncle stopped watching wrestling a while ago "because Stone Cold Steve Austin didn't drink beer anymore". My cousin stopped because it "got shit". Are they not TRUE WRESTLING FANS? I fail to see your logic there.


Yes they are not true wrestling fans because they stopped watching for reasons that don't have anything to do with W-R-E-S-T-L-I-N-G

Your logic says that if Coca Cola stops selling soft drinks it is because of the consumer, and that they are not worth the company's attention. Your logic says no investigation or no modification to the product is needed

But that is a different type of product than the WWE. And if people stop watching WWE, then yes, WWE needs to investigate why and modify. However, people are watching the WWE right now and I think it's at it's best that it's been for a while, so no, right now, no change is needed.

When a crowd truly hates a heel, they don't "cheer" them. Thus, the blatent contradiction of your two statements. THe FACT is that the crowd bood their asses off at the NWO by the end. Was it because they were still effective heels? Partially. Was it because fans were sick to death of them? Partially. Either way the fans BOO'D them. Fans did not "cheer" them as you claim. You argue and contradict your own point.....of course when you said "cheering" them, I "misunderstood" you right?


Big deal I made a typo. By cheered I meant that they Booed, so I put the wrong word down.

Listen, the live sex was ONE night. Edge had higher ratings than Cena THROUGHOUT THE DURATION OF HIM HAVING THE BELT. So this flushes your argument right down the toilet.

This point has been proven false for one thing and any small changes in ratings following that are because people wanted to see Edge do more crazy things like the live sex segment again so they kept watching to see if he would do more live sex.

For one, I don't need to ask anyone's opinion on what WCW was like because I actually watched it. You didn't, so no...you couldn't possibly have based your opinion on "your experience." Another thing, the source I was getting my information from is a little DVD called "The Monday Night Wars." This talks in detail about why WCW went out of business. This CLEARLY is not a better source for the argument then your "theory" based on interviewing a few teenagers. Damn, what was I thinking?

Face it. If WWE was not there, no matter how bad WCW got it would be there. And many of the mistakes they did were due to doing what they thought the fans wanted them to do like I've said before. Thus my argument is valid.

[V]

THE CHAIN GANG SOULJA HAS SPOKEN

[V]

http://sportsmedia.ign.com/sports/image/article/588/588970/john-cena-interview-20050218032316167.jpg

[Arnold HamNegger]

2 weeks higher than Cena, at least one by a margin of like .2 or .3 (I don't remember, they don't keep their ratings up for long), the other after which live sex was promised.

Further, not being worse than a face who couldn't get people to cheer him isn't saying much for your own star power. Edge ended up with the same ratings as the man who couldn't draw a face pop to save his life. HAd they stayed even a little above Cena's before they swapped it back to him, you'd have a decent point, but within a week, ratings were almost back to normal.

Well, yeah you have a point...my argument is flawed if this is the case.

But KK....I will only believe this when WWE posts it on their site. Then AND ONLY then will it be "official." Until then it's only a rumor. :lol:

[Xero]

LOL Gohan (bot going to quote because it will stretch the page more), it looks like his knucks are made out of PlayDough.

[Kane Knight]

LOL. Yeah, wrestling's safer without those moves. Despite a serious change in injuries, and no level of injury difference between spot wrestlers and "safe" wrestlers.

[Kalyx triaD]

This thread getting this far says alot more about you guys than anything you can say against Vermaat.

[Kane Knight]

Your constant attempts in this thread say more about you than the rest of us.

[Rey-Rey]

EDIT: Ha ha ha ha ha. Holy shit. I lose. I just checked it up. So why the hell do they spike the ratings like that then?

[Blitz]

The Shiranui is not a Dudley Dog. That's like saying a piledriver and a powerbomb are the same thing because they both start in the same position.

[Xero]

EDIT: Ha ha ha ha ha. Holy shit. I lose. I just checked it up. So why the hell do they spike the ratings like that then?
Uh, to make the WWE look good? Duh...

[Kane Knight]

EDIT: Ha ha ha ha ha. Holy shit. I lose. I just checked it up. So why the hell do they spike the ratings like that then?

I don't know, actually. It doesnt'make sense for otherwise legit sources (PWInsider, for example), to give false ratings.

[The One]

I don't know, actually. It doesnt'make sense for otherwise legit sources (PWInsider, for example), to give false ratings.

I have been getting my rating numbers from Wrestling Information Archive...which apperently is guilty of spiking their ratings. Oops. I had no idea.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Awesome. He is not Stone Cold yet.

Funny you keep mentioning him in the same breath as Stone Cold. Your whole "theory" about Cena and the basis of this thread is that WWE needs to make him more invincible. You want him to go on a "Goldberg" like streak. You claim that people don't like Cena because he seems weak after losing to Edge. You claim that if he loses, WWE will start to fall from the top. The HUGE flaw in your logic involves Stone Cold. He managed to get total fan approval and turned face BY LOSING to Bret Hart at Mania 13. Thus this makes your theory total bullshit.


No, because these guys are TROUBLEMAKERS. If WWE tries to target them, then they will boo everything WWE throws at them and screw the company for fun. These fans don't know what they want, except that they want to screw the company with their reaction.

Listen, did you watch SNME? Your theory on peer pressure goes out the window with the simple fact that people that boo Cena DO IT SIMULTANIOUSLY! It's not a slow, peer pressure inducing boo that builds up strenght like fans starting "the wave." One of the biggest face pops of the night was HHH giving Cena the Pedigree. Those aren't "troublemakers", those are fans that genuinly don't like Cena. Accept it and quit making excuses.

But that is a different type of product than the WWE. And if people stop watching WWE, then yes, WWE needs to investigate why and modify. However, people are watching the WWE right now and I think it's at it's best that it's been for a while, so no, right now, no change is needed.
People HAVE stopped watching. This has been pointed out intelligently to you by numerous posters. Ratings are way down from what they used to be. But again, you discard ALL OF OUR OPINIONS and facts. You think it's "best" right now because you're a Cena Mark. No change is needed? That's not what you said in your original post when you created this thread. Make up your fucking mind!



Big deal I made a typo. By cheered I meant that they Booed, so I put the wrong word down.

Again, another bullshit excuse to avoid admitting you were wrong. If that's the case, then you've made alot of "typo's" throughout this entire thread.


This point has been proven false for one thing and any small changes in ratings following that are because people wanted to see Edge do more crazy things like the live sex segment again so they kept watching to see if he would do more live sex.

Hey, I admitted I was wrong (See how that's done.)...and ironically it's because I took WWE's word "as fact." That doesn't change the fact that you're full of shit. Are you psychic? Did you tap into the minds of thousands of people to get that conclusion? Again, you quote this "mysterious power" of yours as if it's a fact and speak for thousands...BY GOD THOUSANDS..of the WWE's fans.



Face it. If WWE was not there, no matter how bad WCW got it would be there. And many of the mistakes they did were due to doing what they thought the fans wanted them to do like I've said before. Thus my argument is valid.

FACE IT, your argument is not valid to anyone but you. Again, you're arguing against DOCUMENTED FACTS on a DVD regarding this subject!! These are actual WWE employees (including Vince) and former WCW employees telling what exactly happened. At NO TIME in that DVD when people are explaining why WCW went out of business do they mention your theory. NO WHERE on that DVD is it mentioned that WCW messed up because "they were doing what they thought the fans wanted them to do." Do you understand that? Do you understand that simple fact AUTOMATICALLY MEANS YOU ARE WRONG? Yet, you ignore all this and continue to argue that your "theory" is correct. What the fuck is wrong with you, seriously? When you continue to argue against documented facts, events, wrestler interviews, etc. and insist that you are correct, that really hurts your credibility in any discussion PERIOD.

Here's an example of what you are doing Vermaat:

You are a huge fan of basketball Team "A". Team "B" hits a game winning shot at the buzzer to win the game. You argue with us that your "theory" and "logic" tells you that the shot by Team "B" wasn't good, because then you'd have to admit and accept the fact that your team lost. In your own mind, your team NEVER loses...so "logically", in spite of what was broadcast on ESPN and in the newspapers...you claim your theory is correct and is fact.

That's what you do and that's why you piss so many people off.

[Kane Knight]

I have been getting my rating numbers from Wrestling Information Archive...which apperently is guilty of spiking their ratings. Oops. I had no idea.

EVERYONE's been doing it. People have gotten their numbers from PWI with the same result. And PWI is like the major source of most net news.

[XL]

Now look! You made him come back!

And we have another post full of quotes and dumb as fuck retorts!

Worse of all he took the piss out of me boo-hoo

Vermount, I don't know what 6th grade is!

Fortunately I do not have the displeasure of sharing the same soil as I am English.

I take it I am supposed to be offended by your oh so cutting (and clever) response but as I haven't done any homework in the 5 years since I finished school I've decided not to take offence.

[Kane Knight]

At this point, Arnold, I really hope HHH wins the title at Mania just so we can see if VErmaat's right, and it breaks WWE.

[Corkscrewed]

I do not see 110% effort. It was good, but it was not Mysterio level of effort.
ROFLMAO. The completely subjectivity dripping from that statement pretty much destroyed any shread of argument you might have retained before that.

I see effort from John Cena, but it wasn't as good as Kurt Angle, or Chris Benoit, or Finlay, or Bobby Lashley, or Paul Burchill, or the Spirit Squad, or Randy Orton, or Triple H, or Shelton Benjamin, or Shawn Michaels. Yup, I can say it too!

[Kalyx triaD]

Cena could retain and the WWE still breaks.

[XL]

And another thing Vermin, don't call people 'kid'

Especially if you dont check their actual age.

Especially if you're likely to be younger. I base this on two things, 1. You are a mark, 2. You are a John Cena mark.

In my original post I was actually doing you a favour by calling for people to STOP posting here.

I find it absolutely ridiculous that people are spending more time pointing out just how wrong you are than posting in serious, topical threads.

Now I find myself doing the same.

[Kane Knight]

Cena could retain and the WWE still breaks.

Naw. VErmaat was explicit.

[Kane Knight]

And another thing Vermin, don't call people 'kid'

Especially if you dont check their actual age.

Especially if you're likely to be younger. I base this on two things, 1. You are a mark, 2. You are a John Cena mark.

In my original post I was actually doing you a favour by calling for people to STOP posting here.

I find it absolutely ridiculous that people are spending more time pointing out just how wrong you are than posting in serious, topical threads.

Now I find myself doing the same.

He claimed to be 19.

To be young again...

[Arnold HamNegger]

At this point, Arnold, I really hope HHH wins the title at Mania just so we can see if VErmaat's right, and it breaks WWE.

LOL, yeah me too. I can't wait to see him flip the script and start becoming a WWE basher.

[Xero]

At this point, Arnold, I really hope HHH wins the title at Mania just so we can see if VErmaat's right, and it breaks WWE.
The proof will be when they re-sign Rikishi. Then the crack that leads to the break will begin.






That works in so many ways.... :shifty:

[Evolution]

He claimed to be 19.

To be young again...

He's 19? O.K. I'm 20. And he has a crack about my age for saying Biatch at the end of a post and says something about doing my homework in the 8th grade. Oh, I cannot beleive this has made it to 11 pages. And Page 10 was completely void of him but still funny.















BIATCH! :shifty:

[Kane Knight]

LOL, yeah me too. I can't wait to see him flip the script and start becoming a WWE basher.

He'll probably still claim they're flawless, and at the same time, blame their failures on not pushing Cena or something.

[Xero]

What's going to happen when the ratings (and show quality) steadily rise with Hunter as champion? I mean besides all of us kicking ourselves for even liking Cena in the first place...

[Kane Knight]

I won't kick myself for liking Cena. He was worth it for a long time.

[Xero]

But it lead to one of the worst face runs in years and may have ruined him forever (non-smark-wise)...

[Kane Knight]

Sadly, Hunter's actually been entertaining of late. Cena's been shite.

It's sad when the best thing on wrestling is a pirate.

[Kane Knight]

But it lead to one of the worst face runs in years and may have ruined him forever (non-smark-wise)...

Naw. The Rock recovered...It's doable.

Then again, they've manged to botch both their Rock (Orton) and Austin (Cena) of this generation.

[Xero]

I don't see how Rock was ever crap in the Cena sense and don't see what he actually recovered from. The only time I can remember him completely bombing is as Rocky Maivia, but that was his first gimmick and he wasn't the main event (or even near the main event)...

[Mr. Nerfect]

Vermaat, you said you know wrestling is scripted. Guys cannot go out and talk whenever they want to, management has to OK it. Akio NEVER had the chance to talk. He can't just go and talk because he wants to.

Your statement about it being easier to talk to a small group rather than a larger group is not fact, by the way. Want an example? Johnny Carson. I've heard numerous statements from people close to him that claim Carson was far more comfortable in front of a larger crowd than a smaller crowd.

I also find it much easier to express myself in front of larger crowds. Smaller crowds can be full of people you know, and opinion is more easily expressed to you. When you can see the faces of each and every person listening to what you have to say, it is far worse (in my opinion) than faceless people up the back (which makes projection much easier). I think you'd find a lot of guys that cut effective promos look at the people in the back much more than the people in the front. It is more off-putting to see expressionless shapes in the upper section rather than people laughing at a serious comment you make in the front row.

You say that Paul London's standing SSP is more impressive because less people do it. I disagree with that. Johnny Nitro has done it once (correct me if I'm wrong). Who in the WWE does the Shooting Star Press? No one. And besides, why is it that almost every time Paul London or Brian Kendrick come off the top rope, we don't see a Shooting Star Press or a Spinning Frog Splash? If London has the determination to pull off a standing version of the move, shouldn't it be easy to hit it off the top rope? Why wouldn't he do it? Laziness cannot be an excuse, as he does it off the ground (which would be harder, I image). He doesn't do the London Calling because the WWE won't let him!

Have you actually seen Sliced Bread #2? Your saying that the 619 has never been done in the WWE, but I think you would be able to find it. Go pla any of the N64 WWE games and it is a taunt. The Shiranui has never been done in the WWE to my knowledge. I might be wrong, and someone in Kaientai may has whipped it out once or twice, but I didn't watch then, so I am not going to make claims.

The Shiranui is not a Dudley Dog (as has been already stated). It starts as an ace crusher (like the Dudley Dog, yes), the applier than runs the turnbuckle (like the Dudley Dog, yes), and then backflips (unlike the Dudley Dog) into a modified reverse DDT (the variation Christian does). You're telling me a light kick to the face is more innovative than that? You may not like SB#2, but as far as impressiveness goes, SB#2 should technically be considered better.

You've turned everyone here against Rey Mysterio. No one says he is bad, but you have basically said he tries harder than everyone else. You do realise his matches are the same stuff over and over again. Not innovative stuff. The West Coast Pop he has not done in AGES! His finishing moves right now are the Booyaka Bomb, as I like to call it (springboard senton pressy move) the Droppin' the Dime (springboard leg drop, WOAH! Innovative!) and the springboard splash. I got board of writing springboard. None of those moves is innovative. Victoria's slingshot flipping leg drop is more creative.

Randy Orton didn't know Eddie Guerrero as well as Rey Mysterio. Orton is detached from this whole thing. I'm not trying to say that means it's OK, but certainly you can't give him MORE responsibility for the situation than Rey Mysterio. I said they are both equal, you said they are different and then changed your story to match mine, while presenting it as your own arguement. Huh? Rey Mysterio & Randy Orton should both take blame of the situation (if blame need be given). Rey Mysterio is JUST AS RESPONSIBLE as Randy Orton for being involved in the "Eddie is in Hell" angle than Randy Orton, if not more, depending on which morals you apply to the situation. I want to see how you reply to that. What morals do you have which make participating in a storyline which insults a close friend, better for you than it does the person insulting them. I'm not trying to say Mysterio or Orton was wrong, because the Guerreros may have been fine with it, but if they were not, I want to see why you would give the blame to Randy and not Rey.

Keep in mind that Randy Orton would have been given a script, and that Rey Mysterio would have known what was going to be said.

This brings up my next point, only the best being in the WWE. Test, why is he back? If he wasn't "good enough" to stick around, why do you think he was asked back to the WWE. And don't say he improved, because I would like you to find the evidence. Test has worked very few shows, so it would be more likely Test would have DECREASED in ability. Sure, they had him work dark matches, but why did they wait so long?

When wrestlers with potential are released you claim they need to be good talkers, wrestlers and have good characters. You do realise that Aaron Aguilera and Matt Morgan are fantastic talkers don't you? You do realise that said wrestlers were never given a chance to talk (properly). You do realise that the wrestlers do not talk when they want to, nor do they have ANY control over their character.

If Brian Kendrick were released tomorrow, why would that be? Give me one good reason based on Kendrick's abilities. He's a good wrestler, good talker, charismatic and had a good crowd reaction when he first (re)debuted and when he is allowed to wrestle and speak. What reason would you give to protect the WWE? I want you to find one fault with Paul London that Rey Mysterio doesn't have.

Please do not mention effort, because all of Mysterio's matches, whilst being good, are definately not more innovative than Paul London's. Want an example? Paul London hitting a quebrada over the top rope to Billy Kidman who was standing on the outside (!). What, did he not get lazy for one night? He was given a chance and he ran with it.

Another example? Paul London kicking off the back of Chad Dick and hitting James Dick with a similar move (!). You said The Dicks & The Heartbreakers sucked? No they didn't! The WWE made them suck. Watch Romeo Roselli and "The Promise" Antonio Thomas in OVW. They were over HUGE. These guys are the funniest tag team since Booker T & Goldust. The WWE fucked them up. What? The Heart Throbs got lazy? Their first match in the WWE was as "The Heartbreakers", and they were actually the highlight of the night in my opinion. They were good. The WWE fucked them up.

Tank Toland is an amazing wrestler. So there goes your "the sucked" comment. Chad Toland while not being as good as John Toland, was still decent at the very least. The gimmick the WWE wrote for them sucked, the fans didn't like it, the WWE didn't drop it, who suffers? The talent involved.

You said my cousin and my uncle were not true wrestling fans because they stopped watching because they stopped for reasons not related to the wrestling. My uncle stopped because the entertainment in sports entertainment stopped (in his opinion, which he is entitled to have) and my cousin for reasons I did not fully specify. How do you know he stopped because of reasons other than the product?

You claim that real wrestling fans don't stop watching. We keep watching, and the majority of us are shitting all over your "facts". Sorry buddy, but real wrestling fans don't like what they see either.

John Cena is aimed at mature fans? The guy looks SIX YEARS OLD! His clothing is ridiculous try-hardish. He cannot throw effective looking punches and he looks like a horse trying to stand up for the first time when he moves. I LIKE John Cena. I do not like the character the WWE have given him.

You claim people watched because of the promise of sex. That is stupid. If it were true, would the WWE not have sex promises on every show he does? Would Val Venis not be given the WWE Title? Or has the WWE not realised people watch only when sex is promised?

The fans that boo John Cena are not troublemakers. Some may be, but you seem to forget, they are obviously plenty enough in number to pursuade such a large number of fans. They are obviously better at controlling a crowd than John Cena. Shouldn't the WWE go with these fans? And don't say they'd boo whatever the WWE throws at them, because (and I believe this is a point you have avoided since the beginning of the topic) so many main eventers are cheered. Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Kurt Angle & Rey Mysterio to name a few. Why are they not booed? Explain that to us. I think you said John Cena is an easy target. Why? Why is the guy you claim to be the best face in the company an easy target for fans to boo? Fans "cheer" good faces.

I don't want to bring up contradiction again, because you never seem to set the record straight with those points, but you say a good face connects with the fans. Cena hasn't done that. He gets booed. Is that connecting? A good face (The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels, etc.) has the fans eating out of their hands. Why doesn't Cena? Do not say troublemakers, that is retarded. Troublemakers, if they exist in the quantity you say they do, should have the product based around them, because they are making up a HUGE number of ticket sales.

And if you say that they are only a small number and have since spread via the television, you basically have to go by the arguement that John Cena has been poisoned as a face, and he is always going to get booed unless he turns heel and freshens himself up. How does having a face that gets booed, which sends messages to "the sheep" that are watching, boost business? I fail to see that. Either Cena gets booed, and sucks as a face OR he gets booed because people are not strong enough to like him. Either way, Cena is not the guy you want to be basing your business around.

I think you see a good face as someone who mechanically plays the role well. Someone who can go out there say "Never give up!" and family friendly stuff and wins all the time. I think the rest of the people here see a face as someone who gets cheered and captures energy within every motion they make. Someone who organically fits the role.

Just thought I'd bring up Batista. Why isn't he booed? He was the top guy last year, yet he always got cheered. Where were the troublemakers?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Sorry about the long post. This topic is great for long posts, though.

[Kane Knight]

I agree with the crowd thing though. While I think my record was only about 300 people, I've a much easier time jumping up on stage than I do addressing a single person or group of like, 3.

[AJHayes]

I've been watching this thread and I don't even know where to begin with a response, so I think I'm just going to sit this one out for now.

Vermaat, you are a God damn retard. Mere words cannot begin to describe how fucking stupid you are. Unlike other morons who have posted here, just seeing your name makes me angry. Angry, yet excited how some of the TPWWers are going to take your little opinions and rip them to shreds with facts. Basically, with you, I'm hoping you get a searing case of herpes from a truck stop bathroom. Go fuck yourself.

[tucsonspeed6]

Sorry to bring up the issue about Edge and the ratings when he was champ, but what else was going on with Raw at that time? Specifically, what was McMahon doing during that time. There are a lot of people on that roster, and you really can't say that the ratings for a show are based entirely on who was champ at the time. Maybe something turned people away, or it might be that absolutely nothing else important was happening at the time and the fans got bored. I just don't want to make a decision about Edge's championship until I know what the big picture was.

[Kane Knight]

PEople will always attribute the success or failure of a show to the champion, since he's supposed to be the main draw.

[PureHatred]

Un-fricking-believable.

[Kane Knight]

Wouldn't it be awesome though? To see Mania break WWE? I mean, bad apples are already destroying it from the inside...

[Kalyx triaD]

When's SmackDowm! gonna become ECW!? Or was it WCW..? When is DX coming back?!? Is Eddie gonna run in on WM's main event? In favor of Orton?!?

I want reliable answers that will ruin the show for me, despite wanting to know so bad!!!

[Vermaat]

Funny you keep mentioning him in the same breath as Stone Cold. Your whole "theory" about Cena and the basis of this thread is that WWE needs to make him more invincible. You want him to go on a "Goldberg" like streak. You claim that people don't like Cena because he seems weak after losing to Edge. You claim that if he loses, WWE will start to fall from the top. The HUGE flaw in your logic involves Stone Cold. He managed to get total fan approval and turned face BY LOSING to Bret Hart at Mania 13. Thus this makes your theory total bullshit.


Just because it worked for one guy doesn't mean it will work for another. Yes losing can make a guy into a big face like with Stone Cold, however, it can also make a guy not hold his ground as a face. It depends on their characters and it fit Stone Cold but doesn't fit Cena or Goldberg (no wonder WWE ruined him and he wasnm't as over).

Listen, did you watch SNME? Your theory on peer pressure goes out the window with the simple fact that people that boo Cena DO IT SIMULTANIOUSLY! It's not a slow, peer pressure inducing boo that builds up strenght like fans starting "the wave." One of the biggest face pops of the night was HHH giving Cena the Pedigree. Those aren't "troublemakers", those are fans that genuinly don't like Cena. Accept it and quit making excuses.


Yes now they are doing it automatically because they are used to doing it as a cool thing and because they watched it from home.

People HAVE stopped watching. This has been pointed out intelligently to you by numerous posters. Ratings are way down from what they used to be. But again, you discard ALL OF OUR OPINIONS and facts. You think it's "best" right now because you're a Cena Mark. No change is needed? That's not what you said in your original post when you created this thread. Make up your fucking mind!


I didn't say there needed to be a big change in my original post. I said that WWE needs to watch what they are doing because doing the wrong thing at Mania can lead to trouble later on. I looked at some areas where WWE may do wrong.

Again, another bullshit excuse to avoid admitting you were wrong. If that's the case, then you've made alot of "typo's" throughout this entire thread.


I wasn't wrong. I made a typo. The rest of my post suggests the same thing that I am saying now, so if I didn't make a type, wouldn't I write something else there in the rest of the post ? But of course you guys just love to pick on typos anything to avoid the FACTS.

Are you psychic?

Not psychic, I just know people's psychology. Sex sells. Proven FACT.

FACE IT, your argument is not valid to anyone but you. Again, you're arguing against DOCUMENTED FACTS on a DVD regarding this subject!! These are actual WWE employees (including Vince) and former WCW employees telling what exactly happened.

I'm not arguing against the DVD. The DVD didn't say "The WWE had absolutely nothing to do with wCw going out of business". That's what I said. And former wCw employees are going to be biased because they want to be viewed as good workers. I would need to watch the DVD to give you a more concise reasoning on the fans idea, however, even if they did not mention it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. They may have just not mentioned it !!!

Fortunately I do not have the displeasure of sharing the same soil as I am English.

I take it I am supposed to be offended by your oh so cutting (and clever) response but as I haven't done any homework in the 5 years since I finished school I've decided not to take offence.

Well, you obviously act with the maturity of a 6th grader. And wow, bringing in nations into this, real mature.

At this point, Arnold, I really hope HHH wins the title at Mania just so we can see if VErmaat's right, and it breaks WWE.

It would start the WWE on a bad road, but WWE will have a chance to recover!

I see effort from John Cena, but it wasn't as good as Kurt Angle, or Chris Benoit, or Finlay, or Bobby Lashley, or Paul Burchill, or the Spirit Squad, or Randy Orton, or Triple H, or Shelton Benjamin, or Shawn Michaels. Yup, I can say it too!

I disagree with that assertion. You might disagree with mine. However, I think WWE knows what they are doing most of the time and if what I said was false, then they would see this insane talent in the wrestler you like and push him.

And another thing Vermin, don't call people 'kid'

Especially if you dont check their actual age.


If you don't want to be called kid, then maybe you need to act your age. All I see is someone immature acting like a little kid who just learned some "bad" words. Your actual age might be high, but your mental age is low, in the single digits.

Vermaat, you said you know wrestling is scripted. Guys cannot go out and talk whenever they want to, management has to OK it. Akio NEVER had the chance to talk. He can't just go and talk because he wants to.


True. I know this. However WWE is not stupid. If a guy can talk, then they will let him talk. WWE knew Akio couldn't, so they didn't let him.

Your statement about it being easier to talk to a small group rather than a larger group is not fact, by the way. Want an example? Johnny Carson. I've heard numerous statements from people close to him that claim Carson was far more comfortable in front of a larger crowd than a smaller crowd.


That might be true, but wouldn't the WWE know it? If Akio could talk, then I think they would let him. He probably had a bad attitude about it.

You say that Paul London's standing SSP is more impressive because less people do it.

It's more impressive to me because he needs to jump into the air and do it. The regular SSP he does the same thing in effect but he gets in the air by climbing the ropes. This is why the regular SSP seems to be less impressive. I mean, big guys like Lesnar can (Could?) do the SSP, but I doubt they can do it standing. It is hard.

Have you actually seen Sliced Bread #2?

Yes I have. So basically, based on what you said, it is all like the dudley dog except the last part. This is why I don't think it's innovative. It is derived and quite similar to a move another wrestler did in the WWE a long time ago. And a move doesn't need high impact to be innovative.

None of those moves is innovative. Victoria's slingshot flipping leg drop is more creative.


I haven't seen anyone do these moves like Rey Mysterio does it, thus they are innovative. Mysterio takes them to a new level because he does them with such speed and in a different fashion. It just looks cool when he is doing it and I don't remember other cruisers doing it. Thus it is Innovative.

I want to see why you would give the blame to Randy and not Rey.


Because Rey did not say ONE offensive thing about Eddie.

Keep in mind that Randy Orton would have been given a script, and that Rey Mysterio would have known what was going to be said.


Ok so he should have protested Orton's part, but not his own as he didn't say anything bad i.

This brings up my next point, only the best being in the WWE. Test, why is he back?

Neither of us know if he increased or decreased in ability. I think he will increase, you think he decreased. Neither of us is right, we don't know. However, I think WWE hired him back because he has agreed to try and improve.

When wrestlers with potential are released you claim they need to be good talkers, wrestlers and have good characters. You do realise that Aaron Aguilera and Matt Morgan are fantastic talkers don't you?

Morgan and Aguilera were likely released for other reasons other then talking. Matt Morgan was a pretty generic hoss and Aguilera was a terrible brawler. I mean, I remember his match with Cena, it was pretty poor. I guess WWE didn't see potential in them or maybe, just maybe, they refused to even show it.

I don't see why you guys are all like "WWE is evil" and all wrestlers are right. Some guys are just plain poor in some fields.

If Brian Kendrick were released tomorrow, why would that be? Give me one good reason based on Kendrick's abilities.

He isn't. However, I could see WWE releasing him because they only have two hours of a show to fill and sometimes, there is more people then they can have there, even if they are all good. That's the only good reason I can think of as Kendrick is a pretty awesome wrestler.

Watch Romeo Roselli and "The Promise" Antonio Thomas in OVW.

They started off good but went DOWNHILL fast. Why? We don't know. I suspect they said "we're at the top let's stop putting any more effort in"

How do you know he stopped because of reasons other than the product?


Because that's the reasons you gave me. Have nothing to do with the product lol.

John Cena is aimed at mature fans? The guy looks SIX YEARS OLD! His clothing is ridiculous try-hardish.

John Cena can't throw punches? Then HHH can't do the pedigree. His punches look cool and he doesn't look like he is six years old. He looks like a normal young guy today. He dresses hip hop because that's what the culture is today. He is T-O-D-A-Y. Literaly.

I think you said John Cena is an easy target. Why? Why is the guy you claim to be the best face in the company an easy target for fans to boo? Fans "cheer" good faces.


Because Cena has been going against ineffective heels. If he went against effective heels, then he wouldn't be an easy target.

Cena hasn't done that.

He was getting INSANE cheers feuding with JBL, until he started going against bad heels.

Troublemakers, if they exist in the quantity you say they do, should have the product based around them, because they are making up a HUGE number of ticket sales.


ONe day they like one thing, another day another. You can't build a product aimed at pleasing them, they never like one thing, they are not true fans.

Just thought I'd bring up Batista. Why isn't he booed? He was the top guy last year, yet he always got cheered. Where were the troublemakers?

Batista had a better progression. He feuded with Triple H and Triple H was playing his role well (no stupid jokes about reebok).

Vermaat, you are a God damn retard. Mere words cannot begin to describe how fucking stupid you are. Unlike other morons who have posted here, just seeing your name makes me angry. Angry, yet excited how some of the TPWWers are going to take your little opinions and rip them to shreds with facts. Basically, with you, I'm hoping you get a searing case of herpes from a truck stop bathroom. Go fuck yourself.

What do we have here? Oh a little kid that's insecure of himself. Getting angry at a message board? LOL !!!

Wouldn't it be awesome though? To see Mania break WWE? I mean, bad apples are already destroying it from the inside...

You are not understanding the point. WWE won't break instantly, it will just go on a road that can lead to it's destructon later.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Wouldn't it be awesome though? To see Mania break WWE? I mean, bad apples are already destroying it from the inside...

I wish some bad apples would go to TNA show tapings. Just boo somebody for christ sakes. (other than JJ obviously.)

I can't wait to see Cena on Velocity at this time next year.

[Vermaat]

Cena will NEVER EVER go that low on the card. He is NEVER going to be a jobber.

[James Steele]

Cena will NEVER EVER go that low on the card. He is NEVER going to be a jobber.

Unfortunately.

[Vermaat]

I have proof that solves the Mysterio issue once and for all.

From a reliable news source.

Some fans may be uncomfortable with the repeated references to the Guerrero-Mysterio friendship in storylines that have led up to Wrestlemania. But Mysterio insisted references to Guerrero came with his family's blessing.



"We would not have done anything without … Vickie's [Eddie's widow] blessing," he said. "If anything, Eddie would have wanted it this way. He may have gotten a kick out of some of the things we said about him."



From ABCNEWS. That's right, ABCNEWS. A reliable news source. Don't believe?

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/ESPNSports/story?id=1754238&page=3

[The One]

That doesn't solve shit. I still think Rey Mysterio is benefiting from his friend's death...something I would never do.

By the way, we already knew Vickie gave her blessings to continue to have Eddie be a part of the story lines...doesn't mean we have to give it the thumbs up.

Oh and one more thing...JUST LEAVE ALREADY!

[PureHatred]

Cena will NEVER EVER go that low on the card. He is NEVER going to be a jobber.

You're a fag. Seriously, fuck you.

I tried to do the whole debate thing with you earlier. But you're basically taking all the points and examples that people have given you -such as DVD material, radio and print interviews, historic records, books, live audience reaction, etc - and dismissing them entirely because they don't meet your arbitrary CRITERIA; which concidentally seems to boil down to "If Varmint says it it is TRUTH."

The fact that at one point you said that any item you see that doesn't come from an "official" (which in your eyes I'm sure means WWE) site is a rumor is laughable. Especilly when the people at the E spin facts like they were on Bush's cabinet. The fact that you put forth your version of things over the accounts given by wrestlers in the business because they are "biased" or "bitter" shows and ASTOUNDING amount of hubris on your part.

Throughout this massive thread, with all your massive responses, you basically repeat the same points over and over again without once recognizing the responses you're given or even basic common sense. You have articulated opinions on subjects you yourself say you have knowledge of. And your blind faith in all things WWE is almost perverse considering that you started this thread by saying that the WWE would be in trouble unless they did things YOUR WAY.

So not only are you saying that you're smarter and know more than every poster on this board, every wrestler and member of the front office or backstage personnel brought forth as examples, but you are also SMARTER THAN VINCE MCMAHON AND ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF THE WWE.

You're a failure as a human being.

I hate you, I hate you, I don't even know you and hate your guts. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you and nbody else but you.

[Kane Knight]

I wish some bad apples would go to TNA show tapings. Just boo somebody for christ sakes. (other than JJ obviously.)

I can't wait to see Cena on Velocity at this time next year.

I don't think we'll see either happen. Especially since booing is against TNA's policy, and WWE admitting that one of their top guys isn't drawing is against theirs.

[Kane Knight]

I have proof that solves the Mysterio issue once and for all.

From a reliable news source.



From ABCNEWS. That's right, ABCNEWS. A reliable news source. Don't believe?

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/ESPNSports/story?id=1754238&page=3

That's the reporting of a claim.

If you don't have to accept claims that Rob Van Dam says that movessets are limited in the company, why should we have to accept your hearsay?

[Kane Knight]

Cena will NEVER EVER go that low on the card. He is NEVER going to be a jobber.

Funny, claiming it'll never happen. :lol:

[LK]

You know I made a big effort to try and read through this entire thread but I stopped at page three since it looked quite boring and some guy refusing to take on other peoples opinion. So Vermaat, you're a Cena fan obviously - fair enough. Do I think that he's the best new talent in the last 5 or so years: no I think that was Jericho (stretching it a little but still) but you like Cena so that's alright. Just please stop denying that a large percentage of the wrestling fanbase has turned against Cena.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Just because it worked for one guy doesn't mean it will work for another. Yes losing can make a guy into a big face like with Stone Cold, however, it can also make a guy not hold his ground as a face. It depends on their characters and it fit Stone Cold but doesn't fit Cena or Goldberg (no wonder WWE ruined him and he wasnm't as over).

Are you that stupid? Don't you see that I can turn your own logic against you? Just because it worked for Goldberg doesn't mean it would work for Cena. And the cold hard fact is that it didn't. You seem to ignore the fact that Cena held the Title for a LOOOONNNGGG time before losing to Edge. This is why people got sick of him, because he was booked as to "cartoonish and Superman like." Ironically, if WWE were to listen to your "theory" and "logic", your precious Cena would get even more boo's than he is now. You single handedly are trying to fuck your own hero. Keep up the good work!

Yes now they are doing it automatically because they are used to doing it as a cool thing and because they watched it from home.

LOL!!!!! This might be the dumbest thing you've said on this thread. (And that's saying ALOT.) If you really believe this then you are fucking hopeless. So, according to your theory....pretty much everyone in attendance in Detroit at SNME is not a "REAL WRESTLING" fan? Because the response when Cena's face smacked the canvas was deafening. Even worse, the "sheep" are actually Cena fans....but have watched what "cool" people are doing from home...and decide to boo their favorite wrestler to seem cool. Your theory is fucked up on so many levels it's hilarious. Do you remember RAW a couple weeks ago? He actually didn't get boo'd that much, if at all. Those people in the crowd obviously watch the same "bad apples" at home as everyone else....yet, they didn't conform to your theory. The fact is that in every town, the boo's are at a different level each time....you know why? Because in each town, individual people with individual taste's pay their hard earned money to watch RAW and they boo who they want to boo and they cheer who they want to cheer. Each town has a different amount of people that don't like Cena. That's the explanation. There is no conspiracy theory against Cena as you suggest. Individuals that don't like him, express their individual opinion by booing him. The ONLY logical SANE conclusion to anyone that's not a brainwashed, delusional Cena mark is that alot of people don't like Cena in Detroit.

I didn't say there needed to be a big change in my original post. I said that WWE needs to watch what they are doing because doing the wrong thing at Mania can lead to trouble later on. I looked at some areas where WWE may do wrong.

Newsflash Junior...they are serving up Cena to HHH on a silver platter. Deep down you know it, that's why you felt the need to make this thread. The "change" is that you want Cena to win. Simple enough for you?



But of course you guys just love to pick on typos anything to avoid the FACTS.

There's nothing to avoid, you haven't provided one FACT the entire thread.



Not psychic, I just know people's psychology. Sex sells. Proven FACT.

Again, lumping people into a "flock of sheep" and ignoring the fact that people have individual tastes and opinions....WHICH YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY KNOW IF YOU AREN'T PSYCHIC! If every wrestling fan is just after sex, then explain why Candice has been getting NO REACTION from the fans.

I'm not arguing against the DVD. The DVD didn't say "The WWE had absolutely nothing to do with wCw going out of business".
That's not the point I'm arguing you jackass, obviously WWE had ALOT to do with WCW going out of business. I think jacking off to your Cena posters is making you blind.

And former wCw employees are going to be biased because they want to be viewed as good workers.
What in the blue flying christ are you talking about? Seriously? THEY RIP INTO THE WCW!

I would need to watch the DVD to give you a more concise reasoning on the fans idea, however, even if they did not mention it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. They may have just not mentioned it !!!
Until you watch the DVD, please shut up. Interviews with people such as Eddie, Benoit, Big Show, Jericho, etc. state their displeasure with WCW because the fact is that the only people Bischoff listened too were Bischoff and the Political monsters behind the curtain that controlled the NWO. All of these people state that everyone was getting sick of the NWO! A quote from the DVD is "On our show, you couldn't tell what month it was." Thus, as the DVD goes on to point out....WCW didn't listen to the fans. The fans LOVED the cruiserweights, luchador's, etc.....but they got ignored. Hell, the fans LOVED Bret Hart when he came to WCW, but it took WCW over a year before they took him seriously and gave him a title shot. Also, on the DVD, a HUGE point is confirmed that proves your theory wrong as well. The only time that WCW listened to the fans and pushed anyone other than the NWO is Goldberg. Thus, eventually fans jumped ship to watch the WWE and lead to WCW getting crap ratings and going out of business. Is that simple enough for you? Therefore, your opinion...which was an assumption based on talking to a few people to begin with, is DEAD WRONG. End of discussion.

[Kane Knight]

IT's funny, he even admits that Vicne is marketing to what's "cool" by having a Wigger champ.

[LK]

Could someone that's read the entire thread just sort of sum it up for me? I know he's denying people have turned on Cena for other reasons, besides it being 'cool' but what else is he saying?

[Vermaat]

Just because it worked for Goldberg doesn't mean it would work for Cena. And the cold hard fact is that it didn't. You seem to ignore the fact that Cena held the Title for a LOOOONNNGGG time before losing to Edge.

It didn't work for Cena because THEY DID NOT USE IT FOR CENA. Goldberg had a whole streak with a count. Cena didn't.

This is why people got sick of him, because he was booked as to "cartoonish and Superman like."

"People" got sick of him because the heels were not doing their job right. And if you want to talk SNME, GUESS WHAT, I heard a lot of cheers for Cena besides the boos. This proves that Cena has a lot of fans and that not everyone is out to screw up the show for giggles like you.

LOL!!!!! This might be the dumbest thing you've said on this thread. (And that's saying ALOT.) If you really believe this then you are fucking hopeless. So, according to your theory....pretty much everyone in attendance in Detroit at SNME is not a "REAL WRESTLING" fan? Because the response when Cena's face smacked the canvas was deafening.

Like I said above I heard a lot of cheers as well. And the cheers are because HHH is not playing a proper heel. The whole thing about reebok PROVED it. He is trying to be funny because HHH doesn't like Cena because Cena is the biggest thing WWE has got in a while and he sees him as a threat so he is playing a bad heel.

There is no conspiracy theory against Cena as you suggest. Individuals that don't like him, express their individual opinion by booing him.

Some do. However, a lot of people just do it for giggles or because the heel is playing a bad role !!!

Newsflash Junior...they are serving up Cena to HHH on a silver platter.

The match is 50-50 it can go either way. And that is not a change, if HHH wins and I say it, then yeah, I want a change.

If every wrestling fan is just after sex, then explain why Candice has been getting NO REACTION from the fans.


There's a difference between a chick that's hot and sex. There are a lot of hot chicks in wrestling, but never do they promise live sex. People want to see the actual act, that's why they decided to look. A lot of people were curious to see how WWE would do such a thing

That's not the point I'm arguing you jackass, obviously WWE had ALOT to do with WCW going out of business. I think jacking off to your Cena posters is making you blind.


Ahh, a personal insult. I'm sorry you have confidence issues.

What in the blue flying christ are you talking about? Seriously? THEY RIP INTO THE WCW!


That's right, they want to show that they are good workers to the WWE. WWE doesn't want hire someone who likes a rival, they want to hire guys who hate their rival, even if they did take it out of business. That's why these wrestlers are saying these things there

Interviews with people such as Eddie, Benoit, Big Show, Jericho, etc. state their displeasure with WCW because the fact is that the only people Bischoff listened too were Bischoff and the Political monsters behind the curtain that controlled the NWO. All of these people state that everyone was getting sick of the NWO! A quote from the DVD is "On our show, you couldn't tell what month it was." Thus, as the DVD goes on to point out....WCW didn't listen to the fans. The fans LOVED the cruiserweights, luchador's, etc.....but they got ignored. Hell, the fans LOVED Bret Hart when he came to WCW, but it took WCW over a year before they took him seriously and gave him a title shot. Also, on the DVD, a HUGE point is confirmed that proves your theory wrong as well. The only time that WCW listened to the fans and pushed anyone other than the NWO is Goldberg. Thus, eventually fans jumped ship to watch the WWE and lead to WCW getting crap ratings and going out of business. Is that simple enough for you? Therefore, your opinion...which was an assumption based on talking to a few people to begin with, is DEAD WRONG. End of discussion.

But the fans hated the NWO as heels. This shows it. wCw pushed the nWo because the fans disliked it so much and the role of a heel is to be disliked.

And it is not an opinion, it is a little something called logic that you lack. It seems to me, based on YOUR post, the biggest problem with wCw was pushing the nWo and I showed how wCw pushed the nWo because they listened to the fans and thought they were a good heel. It is very simple to see really.

And luchadors got ignored? That's why wCw was having so many luchador matches. lol !!!

[Vermaat]

Could someone that's read the entire thread just sort of sum it up for me? I know he's denying people have turned on Cena for other reasons, besides it being 'cool' but what else is he saying?

Cena is not a wigger. Cena is real. Cena is Hip Hop. It's his culture.

[Kane Knight]

Could someone that's read the entire thread just sort of sum it up for me? I know he's denying people have turned on Cena for other reasons, besides it being 'cool' but what else is he saying?

Cruiserweights don't try, except Rey Mysterio who's innovative. WWE is going strong, though the thread is about it being make or break for them. WCW and ECW died because they listened to their fans, Cena should be booked as a nauseating babyface, because bad ratings and boos aren't enough of a reason to listen to fans.

There's prolly more.

[Kane Knight]

Cena is a wigger. Cena is shit. It's his culture.
Right. Wigger culture.

[Kalyx triaD]

LOL He said "Wigger".

[Mr. Nerfect]

You said the WWE would have given Akio a chance to talk if he could. By this logic, John Cena can't talk. When he first debuted on SmackDown!, Cena lost to Angle, and while it was a good match, Cena was bland for months. By your logic, this is John Cena's fault and not the WWE's.

You said my relatives stopped watching because of reasons not relating to the product. FALSE! They stopped because they thought the product declined in quality. While Stone Cold Steve Austin turning heel at WrestleMania X7 was brilliant, my uncle hated it, and stopped watching. My cousin stopped watching just last year because he felt it was getting "stupid". My cousin is in touch with today's culture by the way.

You claim that the superstars get lazy. This is a really illogical statement to make. Why would guys like Frankie Kazarian & Brian Kendrick leave the company? Don't say to improve, because you made the point that guys can improve in the WWE. Why would Jamie Noble leave the WWE, have fantastic matches, come back, and then have "lazy" matches? That makes no sence; unless the WWE FORCED Noble to have lazy matches.

The evidence rules out your "cruiserweights are lazy" theory. They're not, the WWE is afraid that top talent like Triple H will be seen as slow otherwise.

You want another example of people being told to tone down? Joey Styles. Brilliant commentator in ECW, told he is shit in the WWE.

Rey Mysterio WAS innovative. He's not now. In your opinion he is, but it is also your opinion that the cruiserweights are lazy, so your opinion is uneducated. Mysterio is SLOWER in the ring than he was. Does that mean he is lazy? Give me one move Rey Mysterio has done in the WWE that no one else does or that no one else can do.

You said that Sliced Bread #2 isn't innovative, because it starts off the same way as a Dudley Dog, yet you say the 619 is innovative? Stone Cold Steve Austin used to do a move that starts off in the same position as the 619. By your logic, the 619 is not innovative.

I don't mean to offend you here, because you have responded to my comments politely, and I have meant to do the same, but you are a sheep to the WWE. You act as if they are the most caring company in the world, letting "lazy" people stay with them for so long, etc.

You said John Cena should have gone on a Goldberg streak. Why? Why would it work for Cena, but it not work for so many other talent? You said losing can't get people over, but both Stone Cold Steve Austin & The Rock lost frequently. Shawn Michaels has a pretty awful WrestleMania record, does that mean he sucks? You're biased towards Cena, I'm sorry, but your points all seem in favour of giving him ideas that you THINK will get him over, yet when we try and offer alternatives, you THINk you know better than us. You even THINK you know better than the WWE.

And I am sorry, but John Cena's punches are awful. I like the guy, but he is not a brawler. By the way, Aaron Aguilera has been known as "The Hardcore Kidd", he can brawl. Cena dominated their match at Armageddon 2004, which is why it sucked so much. Wow, that also destroys your Goldberg theory. Cena was made to look invincible for the match, and you claim it sucked. Interesting.

John Cena does look like a six-year old. His feet annoy me, because he has shoes which make him look like those try-hard kids you see in the supermarkets. Not the ones that are "today", but the ones that think they are. The sheepish ones.

Something about his torso frustrates me, too. It looks like he's just been waxed, not the real lifestyle of a gangster, is it? Sorry, but Cena is only playing the character. He's not real. Cena is a wrestler, and when he wrestles he is good. When he is playing Superman and throwing corny-looking punches, that is when the heat builds up.

Fans boo Cena because they do not like him. Please get that through your head. It is not because he is untalented, it is not because he is a not a future player in the company. He is talented and he will be a main eventer for a long time. You can relax about that. People just don't like the character he plays. They have not been brainwashed, you have. You see John Cena as some kind of God, and the WWE as some kind of Heaven. Stop it! They have declined in fanbase and in quality in most sane people's opinions. Stop trying to use "facts" to prove otherwise when the fact is, some people like him, some people do not. More recently, it is evident the not is taking over. They are not evil or fake fans, they are the real fans, the ones that know what they're watching is crap, and are not afraid to let the WWE know it.

And by the way, you missed the whole point when I said Paul London does a standing shooting star press. I said it is harder to do than a regular one, so why does he only do it off the ground instead of off the turnbuckle if he is lazy? My point is, he hits senton bombs off the top rope because management won't let him do anything fantastic like the London Calling. It's all politics.

[The One]

Cena is not a wigger. Cena is real. Cena is Hip Hop. It's his culture.

West Newbury, Massachusetts...Yeah, I know! It's like The Bronx, Compton, and the hard streets of West Newbury. He is totally gangsta. Cena is completly for real. I am sure he spent many a hour in between his piano lessons and his horseback riding classes get down and dirty with his home boys at Springfeild College.

No no you dumbass. His culture is Wine and Cheese. Is that bad? No. My culture is Wine and Cheese. I grew up privaliged as well. I enjoy rap and hip hop a lot. But I don't go around trying to say I am the doctor of thugonomics. Nor would I EVER try to start a career in Rap, despite the fact that me a my homies agree I tear it up and rock the hizzouse with my kickin rhymes.

[Xero]

Hey, you've said that you won't believe ANYTHING unless it's on WWE.com. Well buddy, I'd like you to reference EVERYTHING you stated as "fact" in this thread to something on WWE.com. If you can't do that, your logic that anything not on WWE.com is obviously destroyed.

As you said, if it's not on WWE.com, it's not fact. If you polled 10,000 people about if they like Cena or not, if it's not posted on WWE.com it's just "rumor", even though you (or someone else) took hours to ask EVERY one of those people if they like Cena or not.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Some do. However, a lot of people just do it for giggles or because the heel is playing a bad role !!!

So now the best heel in recent memory, HHH....the darling of WWE management is suddenly playing a bad heel. You're too much, really.


That's right, they want to show that they are good workers to the WWE. WWE doesn't want hire someone who likes a rival, they want to hire guys who hate their rival, even if they did take it out of business. That's why these wrestlers are saying these things there

AGAIN YOU DISCOUNT WORDS COMING OUT OF ACTUAL WRESTLERS MOUTHS BECAUSE IT PROVES YOU WRONG! You have issues, seek professional help.



And it is not an opinion, it is a little something called logic that you lack. It seems to me, based on YOUR post, the biggest problem with wCw was pushing the nWo and I showed how wCw pushed the nWo because they listened to the fans and thought they were a good heel. It is very simple to see really.

I don't need logic you ignorant fucking asshole! The facts are on the DVD, there's no logic to be used!! You keep repeating your same bullshit "logic" over and over again..EVEN THOUGH IT IS 100% WRONG! You aren't debating the issue, you're looking like a raving delusional idiot! How can I spell it out any different for you......on the DVD they state that THE ONLY ONES AT THE END WHO WANTED THE NWO WERE BISCHOFF AND THE NWO! There are COUNTLESS people who testify to this and admit that the fans as well as alot of the wrestlers within the company were ignored! THIS IS WHY FANS QUIT WATCHING AND WHY WRESTLERS JUMPED SHIP TO WWE!
This is NOT MY OPINION, this is NOT a subject that you can "logically" come up with a different scenerio and claim to be right. I'm quoting actual facts from actual professional people involved...WHICH YOU CAN WATCH YOURSELF AT ANYTIME...and you're telling me I'm wrong because I lack logic? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

And luchadors got ignored? That's why wCw was having so many luchador matches. lol !!!

There weren't that many matches at the end of WCW and they were never used as anything more than filler. They took a backseat to the older, big name wrestlers....BUT OH, you wouldn't know that because YOU DIDN"T WATCH IT!

How you continue to argue with me when #1you didn't watch WCW and know nothing about them and #2 have never watched the DVD I'm refering too, yet keep discarding documented facts from everyone that was ever involved on the subject and INSIST that you are right is beyond me! How are you an expert on something that you know nothing about? You're gonna discard professional opinions and facts based on "logic" you've obtained from asking a few teenagers?

Seriously, all you have to do is say "OK, I was wrong. I didn't know that there was a DVD that discusses this subject THOROUGHLY and I was mistaken." Is that so hard? I really try not to resort to name-calling, but it's this attitude of yours that makes it impossible not to get upset and call you a fucking idiot...because there's no other explanation.

[Kane Knight]

West Newbury, Massachusetts...Yeah, I know! It's like The Bronx, Compton, and the hard streets of West Newbury. He is totally gangsta. Cena is completly for real. I am sure he spent many a hour in between his piano lessons and his horseback riding classes get down and dirty with his home boys at Springfeild College.

No no you dumbass. His culture is Wine and Cheese. Is that bad? No. My culture is Wine and Cheese. I grew up privaliged as well. I enjoy rap and hip hop a lot. But I don't go around trying to say I am the doctor of thugonomics. Nor would I EVER try to start a career in Rap, despite the fact that me a my homies agree I tear it up and rock the hizzouse with my kickin rhymes.

He's also not a good rapper. He's good for a fake rapper on a fake show abnout a fake sport, but he's a wigger pure and simple./

[AJHayes]

Quote:
Have you actually seen Sliced Bread #2?

Yes I have. So basically, based on what you said, it is all like the dudley dog except the last part. This is why I don't think it's innovative. It is derived and quite similar to a move another wrestler did in the WWE a long time ago. And a move doesn't need high impact to be innovative.

Quote:
None of those moves is innovative. Victoria's slingshot flipping leg drop is more creative.

I haven't seen anyone do these moves like Rey Mysterio does it, thus they are innovative. Mysterio takes them to a new level because he does them with such speed and in a different fashion. It just looks cool when he is doing it and I don't remember other cruisers doing it. Thus it is Innovative.

So basically what you're saying is that Mysterio is more innovative than sliced bread (think about that part for a second) because he does a lot of the same moves that every other Lucha Libre wrester does... Oh, wait.. He does them a little different (sliced bread is A LITTLE DIFFERENT than the Acid Drop) and he does them faster (Luchadores are fast. Watch something other than WWE and you'll know this, you fucktard.)

Cena is a wigger. Wiggers piss off a lot of people because they are fucking pathetic. Theres a word for what a wigger really is: POSER.

There is a way to redeem Cena: Fans boo him, so he says (I'm not going to use wigger-speak for this): "You wanna boo me? Fine. Fuck you. I'm still the champ and theres not a damn thing you can do about it but sit on your fat ass and watch me take all challengers." Then he goes back to the way he was during his US title buildup.
Thats the only way I can see him being over. He shows sparks of wrestling talent, but he has gotten fucking lazy since he won the title.

...AND THAT FUCKING SPINNER BELT PISSES ME OFF! Sure, go ahead Cena, shit on the reputation of the belt. Your fanbois and fangirls will love you for it. Wrestling fans will say fuck you and you'll quickly find yourself completely unrespectable.

But, I suppose there is a way that I can insult a wigger horribly (I roomed with one when I was in the military, definately not my choice, he was wigger/metrosexual. After his pedicure/manicure, he was thuggin around with his homies.) CENA IS A SELLOUT. Plain and simple. Just like FEminem. Fucking sellout.

Of course, I hate rap, so.... yeah, he gets no bonus points in that department.

In closing, Vermaat.. I'm gonna keep praying for something in your brain to snap and you join the rest of society. Now, until then, go wear your baggy pants around your knees, a negro league baseball jersey, a do-rag, a sideways baseball cap.... Then go to your room... Take all that off... roll it into a little ball.. And give yourself a "stupid clothes enema." Then jerk off to your Word Life Poster.

*Fap fap fap fap* oohh.... yeah Cena... THIS IS BASIC THUGANOMICS!!! */fap*

[Kane Knight]

I love the fact that "I don't remember other cruisers doing it" = innovative. How retarded is that!

"This movie has clearly ripped off Citizen Kane!"

"Well, I've never seen that before, so the plot twist was innovative!"

[Arnold HamNegger]

Cena is a wigger. Wiggers piss off a lot of people because they are fucking pathetic. Theres a word for what a wigger really is: POSER.

Yeah, another concept that Vermaat is in denial of. It's a simple formula really: "If you are white + acting black = wigger"
Cena has even admitted in an interview a while ago (I believe it was Byte, could be wrong) that he had only gotten into rap just prior to his character with WWE. Get that Vermaat, Cena is playing a character...and it's not a direct representative of his culture...he's playing a wigger. People are generally sick of wiggers and that's why they love to see Cena get his ass beat.

There is a way to redeem Cena: Fans boo him, so he says (I'm not going to use wigger-speak for this): "You wanna boo me? Fine. Fuck you. I'm still the champ and theres not a damn thing you can do about it but sit on your fat ass and watch me take all challengers."

This has actually been touched on a couple times by Cena and the WWE. He started a promo defending the troups backstage in the Angle feud with "Hell, half the people out their don't like me....." Cena even cut that promo in the ring where he told everyone that was "drinking Hateraid" that they could kiss his ass.

J.R. on SNME started a line with "Whether you like Cena or not....."

So, fans are booing Cena....Cena admits that people out there don't like him...J.R. knows that people don't like him....thus, WWE realizes people don't like him. YET, Vermaat continues to argue otherwise. I think he needs to stop arguing with us and email Cena, J.R. and WWE and tell them that they are idiots and lack "logic."

[Kane Knight]

They really ought to just have Cena "look out for number 1." Especially if he drops the F-Bomb a few times on the fans who are booing him.

The problem is, they'll probably make him a chickenshit heel like 90% of the roster, because like Vermaat, the WWE execs seem to think that being formulaic works. Which is why they spend so much time ignoring the success of other heels, or ruining them (Cena, Orton).

Like Vermaat, like most Cena marks, they lack logic, alright.

Cena was successful, so let's totally change his character. We all saw this coming, the fans turning on him.

[Volare]

i see it like this...

Rock started as face, then people (like us getting sick of Cena) started hating Rock...what does he do?? he Changes his style to heel, Becomes better on the mic, (IMPROVING HIS SKILL!!) and joins the nation. That's a Smart Move.

Cena Started Face, then went Heel (with B2(B-Squared)) and now is face again
What does he have to show for it...
Same gimmic lines (you cant see me, same style promos, moves/charecter) "IMO"

in other words, fans are getting BORED. Why?? Cause its time for a change, Hell Trips even loses the Title now and again. And for One Simple Reason

It Gives time to change up the Story Lines, bring someone else to the table and showcase what they got.

Look at the great Rivalrys Trips has had...
Comepare that list to Cena's (Nuff Said)

"IMO" It's all about the build up of the charecter, and how you can change that immage to draw in others...and cena buried himself alive

[Xero]

"IMO" It's all about the build up of the charecter, and how you can change that immage to draw in others...and cena buried himself alive
Now that's not fair. Cena did NOT bury himself alone, the WWE fucked him over and buried him by pussifiying him. Cena didn't do it completely by himself. Did he have a hand in it? Sure, no doubt, but it's more WWE's fault than Cena's.

Holy fuck, I just stuck up for Cena! Am I a hypocrite!? :roll:

[Kane Knight]

Cena is expected to be a leader and has shown no leadership skills. He was the new franchise and had more job security than almost anyone in the business.

He really has buried himself...The WWE just tossed him a shovel and pointed at the plot...

[tucsonspeed6]

He is T-O-D-A-Y. Literaly.
Literally? Then I guess that mean's they're interchangable...

Say, it sure is lovely weather we're having John Cena.

Oh, we're out of milk. Can you pick some up John Cena after work?

Uh oh. The electric bill is due John Cena! I better get that in soon.

Don't put off til tomorrow what you can do John Cena



Because Cena has been going against ineffective heels. If he went against effective heels, then he wouldn't be an easy target.

Yeah, feeding him clean wins over every heel in the business will surely make the heels effective.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Now that's not fair. Cena did NOT bury himself alone, the WWE fucked him over and buried him by pussifiying him. Cena didn't do it completely by himself. Did he have a hand in it? Sure, no doubt, but it's more WWE's fault than Cena's.


Yeah, you're exactly right. The pathetic thing is that Vermaat keeps blaming the heels for Cena's lack of support. Let's analyze Cena's last 4 opponents:

Jericho- "Future Hall of Famer."

Angle- "Future Hall of Famer."

Edge- "Not quite Hall of Fame status, but was arguably getting the most heel heat in the WWE until he feuded with Cena."

HHH- "Future Hall of Famer & probably the heir apparent to Vince McMahon and the WWE."

That's four of the most SOLID wrestling performers/entertainers in today's era...yet they are all to blame and not Cena? Hell, Christian was even getting face pops for bad mouthing Cena when he came to RAW. I firmly believe that the reason they dropped Christian from the Cena story line (and RAW) was to protect Cena, because WWE could see the trend...even way back then.

[XL]

I would like to say that my use of "bad" words shows you nothing of my mental age or IQ. The word I called you is a word that I do not like. I only use the 'C' word in very extreme cases when my opinion of someone is that low that the use of the word is warranted.

Your claim that I have the mental age of someone in single figures really does little to hurt me. If your assertion were true then I guess I would have the mental age of one of those child genius' otherwise there'd be no BA at the end of my name

[XL]

And if I did have said mental age, wouldn't that automatically make me a Cena mark?

May I ask you a question?

Seriously, why do you come here?

I originally thought that it was a joke account but you put far too much effort in with your endless quote replies for it to be a fake account.

So, why do you come here?

[Kane Knight]

Literally? Then I guess that mean's they're interchangable...

Say, it sure is lovely weather we're having John Cena.

Oh, we're out of milk. Can you pick some up John Cena after work?

Uh oh. The electric bill is due John Cena! I better get that in soon.

Don't put off til tomorrow what you can do John Cena

That last one...:|

Keep in mind, Vermaat is LITERALLY a WWE mark. Meaning that since JR always says that someone was "literally" broken in half (bah gawd stunner baby back ribs), of course he'll infer the wrong reason.

Anyway, the funny thing is, rap is YESTERDAY. I mean, pretty much, we're seeing a decline in rap. Beyond that, you look at popular rappers, and Cena doesn't resemble them. Except maybe Will Smith, or as I like to call him, "Whitey Bored." OMG, see what I did there?


Yeah, feeding him clean wins over every heel in the business will surely make the heels effective.

Well, DUH! How else do you establish them than by feeding them to the most over face evar?

[Kane Knight]

I would like to say that my use of "bad" words shows you nothing of my mental age or IQ. The word I called you is a word that I do not like. I only use the 'C' word in very extreme cases when my opinion of someone is that low that the use of the word is warranted.

Your claim that I have the mental age of someone in single figures really does little to hurt me. If your assertion were true then I guess I would have the mental age of one of those child genius' otherwise there'd be no BA at the end of my name

I've got BS at the end of my name...:shifty:

Naw. But seriously, if profanity=lack of intelligence, there's a shitload of so-called geniuses who are full of shit...

The funny thing about language is, the words you use do not really mean much in terms of intelligence. The way you use your words can reflect intelligence, or not. It's pretty simple, really.

[Xero]

I've got BS at the end of my name...:shifty:

Naw. But seriously, if profanity=lack of intelligence, there's a shitload of so-called geniuses who are full of shit...

The funny thing about language is, the words you use do not really mean much in terms of intelligence. The way you use your words can reflect intelligence, or not. It's pretty simple, really.
Inconceivable!

[XL]

Not really sure what you're getting at there KK.

Are they clever cos they don't use profanity? Or does it...

Forget it, I just realised I can't be arsed.

Typing on a PSP is awful!

[Kane Knight]

Not really sure what you're getting at there KK.

Are they clever cos they don't use profanity? Or does it...

Forget it, I just realised I can't be arsed.

Typing on a PSP is awful!

I'm saying that there are a lot of real smart people who are explicitly profane.

To judge someone's intellect solely by the words they use is a really bad idea. It's judging a book by it's cover. The content of someone's message is a totally different issue, though.

[XL]

Aahh that's what I thought you were getting at.

You also perfectly summed up this little scuffle between me and Vermat.

I am still intrigued as to why he comes on here.

I mean I come here for the news, discussion and the funny.

You obviously come here to rip n00bs.

but what does he get from it?

[Volare]

who knows...but im glad he saw my point of view

Thnx KK

[Kane Knight]

Rip n00bs and post fake news. :shifty:

[Volare]

i think KK has a new Promo Ending :lol:

[Kane Knight]

Promo? What do you know about promos? I'm the best in this business, and who are you again?

...It doesn't matter who you are!

I tell you, you come and go at your leisure, but there is one constant in TPWW--Kane Knight. The man, the franchise, The one who's about to smack the taste right out your mouth! Sixteen time spam forum champion, forty time gangbang champion, and nineteen time world heavyweight redundancy champion of the world! The man who has climbed mount Everest, run with scissors and fucked Chyna twice--And STILL doesn't know what sex she is!

Forget John Cena, forget the Rock. Forget Ric Flair, forget Mister MaGoo, your Bill Gates-looking ass only has one concern in the world--And you're looking at him. I'll tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna take this here post, spellcheck it, word by word, character by character, then I'm gonna encrypt that sumbitch in 128K protection...And e-mail it STRAIGHT UP...YOUR CANDY ASS!

If you smellalalalalalalalalala...What...

ALLALLEEYYYAAALLEEEYYAALALLEEYYAAALLEEYEYYAAA....

Dammit Hassan!

[Mr. Nerfect]

Someone mentioned Cena's belt. I think this would be awesome for a heel. A wrestler tells John Cena he is disrespecting the belt, and John Cena says by being the current WWE Champion, thus the best wrestler in the history of this business, Cena has earnt the right to do whatever he wants to the title belt. Classic arrogant shit there...:drool:

You can have wrestlers try and save the WWE Championship from Cena, but they always fall short. Finally one does win the title from Cena, with a little help from Cena's rival (Triple H?), and they ask him to get rid of the crappy spinner belt, but he goes to a jeweller's to find out how much it's worth, finds out it costs a fortune, keeps it, turning into a cowardly heel in the process, before jobbing the title back to Cena.

That scenario plays out awesome in my head. Face wins the title with help from Top Face, everyone is happy, Face gets greedy, Cena wins belt back, everyone is sad again, Top Face wins belt. Some unpredictable booking from the WWE could go a long way.

[Kane Knight]

I actually like the spinner belt more than I like Cena's attire.

[PureHatred]

I actually like the spinner belt more than I like Cena's attire.

If they really wanted him to be 'street' he wouldn't wear those busted ass Reebok pumps. There's a difference between old school and corny.

As for the heel thing, I always wanted a heel Cena to turn into one of those arrogant, dickhead type rapper/NBA athlets with a 14 person entourage. Start acting like Stephon Marbury, etc. Maybe get Orlando Jordan to come over to Raw as Cena's lackey and have OJ dress up like Lil John and carry a pimp cup.

That right there would be truly despicable and thouroughly entertaining.

[PureHatred]

Plus, it's like a year past being really cutting edge, so that means it would totally fit in with WWE's writing style.

[Kane Knight]

It's funny, I saw Rey Rey's split legged moonsault tonight.

Apparently, "innovative" means doing it worse than a guy with only one leg.

[Corkscrewed]

OMG, the fact that he continues to argue with the most pathetic excuses (while completely failing to realize they're pathetic) is fucking hilarious. WOW. I'm not going to even argue anymore. At this point, Vermaat has degenerated to unintentional comedy.


This thread must be archived.

[Kane Knight]

HE's not oblivious, he's just playing retarded.

And sadly dedicated. ;)

[Corkscrewed]

Or he's a REALLY good troll. Or a REALLY big retard. Either way, he's good at what he does. Or bad. Or whatever.

[Kane Knight]

IT's a conundrum so big even God Himself could not solve it.

[PureHatred]

IT's a conundrum so big even <s>God</s> CENA Himself could not solve it.

[Kane Knight]

Cena is God?