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Old 02-12-2009, 10:58 AM   #201
Kane Knight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mackem View Post
Fox, I don't know how old you are but I am going to assume you are of working age. If somebody left your workplace over three years ago, barely progressed professionally and then came back to a higher position in the company than you - would you be happy? I wouldn't and I bet workers with the WWE wouldn't as well.

Chrisitan has potential, I am not arguing with this but for me he would have to re-earn his place in WWE. He didn't have to leave when he did, he made his choice. If he came back to the same position as the people it is being suggesting he should feud with, it spits in the face of what they have accomplished and their loyalty to the companyand others as well. 'yeah fuck off to TNA for a few years, come back here and we'll pretend it never happened. Oh yeah, we'll put you in a high position within the company as well.' I don't agree. You will also have new fans in the new WWE target audience who will have no idea who he is anyway, as frustrating as that might be it's the truth.

I'd like to see Christian do well, he was on the verge of breaking through to the next level before he left.
Wasn't he feuding with Cena shortly before? I mean, Cena cracks aside, I'm at a loss as to how it's even viable that he would be returned to a higher position.

This also seems like a particularly lame justification when you look at the history of returns in pro wrestling.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:01 AM   #202
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Boys, can we please keep it on topic instead of making this thread into yet another bitching session between Noid/KK et al?
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:07 AM   #203
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Notice, while I disagree with Noid, and think he is a retard, I'm not taking this thread off topic. I'm still trying to proccess why they brough Christian back with no fanfare, no titiantron, no teaser, no nothing. I mean it just doesn't make sense.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:07 AM   #204
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XL, can you please not exacerbate things by giving Noid a chance to play the martyr?
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:08 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Notice, while I disagree with Noid, and think he is a retard, I'm not taking this thread off topic. I'm still trying to proccess why they brough Christian back with no fanfare, no titiantron, no teaser, no nothing. I mean it just doesn't make sense.
But apparently, that's a good thing.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:19 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
XL, can you please not exacerbate things by giving Noid a chance to play the martyr?
Jesus, that's the last thing I'm trying to do. Perhaps I'll zip it on that one .

C'mon guys, we all know that Noid can put a positive spin on anything. Why do we have to see that as a bad thing? I've said it before, I'd love to be as optimistic as Noid is.

I'm a big mark for Christian. I would have loved the "Huge Star Returning" fanfare - the weeks of promos, the huge fanfare on the biggest possible stage, cutting down the top star. But we didn't get that. Noid (and Jeri) make some good points about fitting him in and keeping other potential matches on the WM card. i guess we'll have to see how it all plays out.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:19 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
I think a happy medium could have been reached if they'd done the opening segment on this weeks Raw. Have Swagger come across to Raw to address Hornswoggle cos he "just couldn't wait til Tuesday" and then have Christian re-debut on the A show and set up the match between them on ECW for the following night.

This achieves the following:

i) Christian is reintroduced on the Big Stage.
ii) Those fans of Raw that don't watch ECW may well have had their interest piqued enough to tune in on Tuesday.
I really like this idea. It still gives him a chance to "run the show" on ECW, and to let the fans become familiar with him (again/at all).
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:23 AM   #208
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It also keeps the WM card intact. As someone said earlier (Jeri I think), it would be nice to see the Hardys/E&C feud build over the summer. It lets Christian become familiar with the fans (as I said) and the four-sided ring (). I for one am interested to see how this goes (mainly because I'm a Christian mark).
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:16 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Wasn't he feuding with Cena shortly before? I mean, Cena cracks aside, I'm at a loss as to how it's even viable that he would be returned to a higher position.

This also seems like a particularly lame justification when you look at the history of returns in pro wrestling.
Which led to a triple threat match. He was heading on to big things, I'm not denying that, however he did not make it. The timing of his leaving was bad.

He is only a former intercontinental and tag team champion at best which is where he loses out to Chris Jericho. A higher position would be catapulted into one of the main event Wrestlemania feuds, which they are currently running, under two months before the event.
Last edited by The Mackem; 02-12-2009 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:24 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Since when does fairness have anything to do with booking in the WWE? How is it fair that Vladimir Kozlov has already had atleast 2 WWE Championship matches on PPV when a guy like Shelton Benjamin, who is clearly a much better talent and has been with the company since 2001, has NEVER had one? It's all about the money. Vince books Vladimir vs. Triple H over Shelton vs. Triple H because (he believes) it will be a bigger draw.

Christian vs. Edge vs. Matt vs. Jeff is a big money match. That is something that people will be drawn to come and see.

What's a draw about Christian vs. Jack Swagger? It's a waste of talent.
Christian never got a significant push near the main event until just before his contract ran out. You are right it's all about money so why should they ruin what they have been building towards because of someone that wouldn't do what they wanted, went to the 'competition' and then came running back when it never worked out?

Since when does fairness have anything to do with booking in the WWE?

We'll change 'fairness' to 'politics' then.
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:49 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Fabien Barthez View Post
Interfere in the Chamber match? How would someone like Christian break into a cage?
HINT: His name is Christian Cage!

Back a truck up and pull the chamber door open. You don't watch a lot of Hell in the Cell Matches do you???
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:55 PM   #212
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Christian was barely fueding with Cena before he left. Yeah there was some verbal sparring and the Triple Threat with Jericho but Christian ended up being drafted SmackDown where he did nothing. If I remember correctly his last appearance was at Tabboo Tuesday as one of the choices for a match - which he did out of contract.

Three weeks of jaw jacking with the champ and a match which the bookers felt needed Jericho adding to it doesn't equate to Main Event status to me.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:19 PM   #213
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God, I hate the wrestling forum sometimes
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:22 PM   #214
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Jack Swagger should go back to FCW. He's terrible all around.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:25 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron
This shit is classic. People acted the same way about Jericho last year. Sure, he got a big debut, but everyone complained about his return for a while. Then he went on to have the best fued in ages and win the title, and suddenly nobody said he was sabotaged anymore. Probably because it didn't happen to begin with and everyone flips out over nothing.
I see what you're saying but I don't quite agree with that.

After Jericho debuted, it was obvious that his 'face' personna and image was very outdated. As a result of that, Jericho 'floundered' and was receiving luke warm face pops at best (as I had predicted). Those luke warm face pops than turned into some mild boo's.

It wasn't until Jericho made his radical heel turn that his character was COMPLETELY revitalized.

The WWE shit the bed when Jericho arrived and he suffered as result. The heel turn nullified all damage however...and Jericho went back to being awesome.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:27 PM   #216
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God, I hate the wrestling forum sometimes
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:38 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Christian vs. Edge vs. Matt vs. Jeff is a big money match. That is something that people will be drawn to come and see.

What's a draw about Christian vs. Jack Swagger? It's a waste of talent.
I agree, and pretty much everyone here does, that it is a big money match. If we put a poll on it, I think we would all guess that TLC would be the match type. So it would look pretty strange to have three World Champions and Christian going into the TLC match. It would be that much bigger if it were brother v. brother v. brother v. brother, champion v. champion v. champion v. champion.

Yeah, they could try and cram that match into NWO with the two chambers. Or maybe Wrestlemania, with the MitB. Or they could save it, and actually build the storyline.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:45 PM   #218
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Quote:
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To your first question, there are multiple ways. He could have entered the Royal Rumble, for instance, made a huge impact by eliminating several guys, and maybe even making it into the final four before being tossed out by someone like Randy Orton. He then shows up on RAW the next night to cut his big return promo before being interrupted by whoever his first feud would be against, maybe someone like Chris Jericho, and winning a quick verbal sparring match against him.

Another way would've been to have Santino come out at the top of the hour to cut one of his usual promos when Christian's old music hits and he walks out on the stage and proceeds to tear into Santino as he announces his return. He gets into the ring and after a few words, hits Santino with the Unprettier. Bam. Christian is back on RAW.
I love you Fox, but I've got to argue this:

Christian returning in the Royal Rumble Match -- and losing -- makes him look better than debuting on ECW and beating the Champion there? Christian returning against Santino Marella makes him look better than returning and defeating the ECW Champion? Maybe it works better in your head, but in mine, it is an instant passage into the mid-card for Christian.

Quote:
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The most obvious and best though IS the proposed Jeff vs. Matt vs. Edge vs. Christian storyline heading into WrestleMania 25.

At the Royal Rumble, Jeff has Edge beaten for the WWE Title when the ref takes a bump. Christian runs out and nails Jeff with a steel chair, the Unprettier, and Edge gets the win. The next episode of Smackdown, Edge comes out first thing and says that he had no idea that Christian was coming back, let alone that he was going to help him win back the WWE Title. He says thank you. Christian comes out and says that he didn't do it for Edge - he did it because he's gotten sick and tired of watching Jeff be the "brother that could." He reminds everyone that there was a point in time when the four of them were breaking into the business together - almost ten years ago. When Edge became WWE Champion, he said okay, that's fine. But now Jeff is a former WWE Champion, and Christian doesn't want them overshadowing him. He didn't cost Jeff the title to help Edge - he did it to make a statement: He's Back.

Later it would've been revealed that Christian didn't try to run Jeff off the road and didn't knock him out at the hotel. At the rematch between Jeff and Edge at No Way Out, Matt shows up to "help" Jeff, but ends up knocking him out too. On the following Smackdown it's revealed that he was the one who did all of those things to Jeff, because he's sick of his little brother getting the spotlight.

So you build to WrestleMania with Jeff being conflicted with his dreams of winning the WWE Title at WrestleMania and the turmoil of his brother turning on him - Matt with nothing but utter jealously and selfishness aimed at his brother and his own undying desire to win the WWE Title - Christian with his cockiness and uneasy relationship with his brother and his desire to make a splash in the WWE - and Edge, wanting nothing but to get away from these people with his belt intact.


As far as who should've faced Jack Swagger for the ECW Title, MVP or R-Truth would have been great choices.
There are a few problems with the scenario you have suggested, although it is one of the most organic of the Edge/Christian/Matt/Jeff ideas I have read:

1) As you saw, Christian returning got a face pop. Do you really want the genuine interest in Christian to be wasted with him enforcing that he is a bad guy? It's playing against the fans, and it's going to confuse and upset them. Some people will cheer Christian hitting Jeff with a steel chair, and that's not exactly a visual you want. It sends the message that Jeff isn't worth cheering, and that this Christian guy is the good guy. It just makes things more confusing.

Christian returning as a face was absolutely the right move. Both from a creative and business standpoint. Hell, while he's hot, Christian might even move some merchandise. He was entertaining as hell on ECW, and he fills a gap in the face line-up that wasn't previously there. Triple H may actually be the closest thing the WWE has to a face with a zinging attitude right now.

2) In your scenario, you have three heels and one face. Maybe that is intentional, but it seems a little messy to me. Jeff Hardy is the only real character for the fans to attach to, so you're basically dedicating 75% of the angle to guys the fans don't like. That could turn some people off. If they were going to do something with those four men at WrestleMania, then I think a tag team match would have been the best option. That way you have two faces and two heels, and things a lot more even.

3) This idea immediately violates realism, because you do realise you have "the richest prize in the industry" being defended at the 25th anniversary of the Granddaddy of Them All between four former tag team specialists. Jeff Hardy is a guy with two wellness violations to his name; Matt Hardy has never been a "real World Champion" before, and has never really main eventing a PPV; Christian is only a few months off returning to the company after a three-year absence, prior to which he had no main event experience; with Edge probably being the only proven reliable main eventer of the four.

Again, it also leaves Triple H out in the cold. If you think that the WWE Title match at an event like WrestleMania XXV is going to leave out the guy who is banging the boss' daughter, and has been arbitrarily part of a World Title match every WrestleMania he could attend since WrestleMania X-8, for the fucking Hardy Boyz, you're delusional. Unless Triple H was injured with time to plan, there is no way the WWE Title match at WrestleMania is going to feature anyone but Triple H. If you want to include Edge, Christian, Matt Hardy and Jeff Hardy, you better make it a Five-Way.

Any WWE Title match idea for WrestleMania XXV that doesn't involve Triple H should immediately be disqualified for being unrealistic. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

As for MVP and R-Truth being suitable opponents for Jack Swagger? I'll maybe give you MVP. In fact, I would have loved to have seen MVP on ECW as a face. But that being said, Jack Swagger vs. Christian is definitely a bigger match. So even if you think you're taking away from the epicness of the other matches at the event (and with Edge vs. Triple H and Matt Hardy vs. Jeff Hardy, I don't think you are), you're at least bulking up those lower on the card.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:55 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
You're only remembering a partial truth, which is what you usually do. See also, your statement, even after .44 Criticdalene proved you wrong, that I said Jericho was not returning.

I've said it before:

  • I am not responsible for what you infer.
  • I am not responsible for what you assume.
  • I am not responsible for what you make up.
Telling me to "get over myself" is more of the above, as well.
What are you going on about? Are you really trying to analyse the complex history and realities of me calling you a baby? Wow, that's fucking sad.

You claimed that Fabien was being condescending towards you. He was not. You are condescending towards everyone else. Go fuck yourself. What does Jericho have to do with any of this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Looks more like you have no argument, and are hypocritically trying to avoid reasoning.
You're right, I'm not reasoning. I am not playing with you today. Fuck off and go touch yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Again, I wasn't "crying." Your assumptions are baseless. Well, they seemed to be based in the continued need to attack me, even though I'm not doing the same to you. Be less defensive, Noid.


Alright, this is just ridiculous. Why the hell are you trying to structure an arguement about whether or not you are a pussy? You were crying, you're a dickhead for getting so defensive about it, and you need to reflect on yourself a lot more than you do.

Also, I wasn't even attacked. How could I be defensive? You're past your prime, KK. I'm actually embarrassed to be doing the whole "arch-nemisis" thing with you anymore. You're getting desperate and clingy. I think we need some time apart.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:57 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I love you Fox, but I've got to argue this:

Christian returning in the Royal Rumble Match -- and losing -- makes him look better than debuting on ECW and beating the Champion there? Christian returning against Santino Marella makes him look better than returning and defeating the ECW Champion? Maybe it works better in your head, but in mine, it is an instant passage into the mid-card for Christian.
Well he could have tagged in with Cena. Besides he is not been listed as an ECW superstar yet. For the record, Santino is a bigger star than Jack Swagger. And we all know that it would have made a huge impact if Christian returned on Raw maybe for even one night it would have been worth it.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:59 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Notice, while I disagree with Noid, and think he is a retard, I'm not taking this thread off topic. I'm still trying to proccess why they brough Christian back with no fanfare, no titiantron, no teaser, no nothing. I mean it just doesn't make sense.
Christian had a titantron. It was a pretty cool one, actually. The teaser and the fanfare was not needed, in my opinion. I guess the WWE wanted to do a surprise return. It says that you can't afford to miss a single episode of WWE programming (which we know is bullshit, but it makes a point), and reminds you that anything can happen in the WWE.

I mean, what exactly would hyping the return have done? Boosted the rating a little more? Gotten more people watching and complaining? This way, people can here about it, or see the recap videos on SmackDown! or RAW, and be like "Fuck, I've really got to watch now!" It pretty much accomplishes the same thing.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:00 PM   #222
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Another way would’ve been to have Edge come out to cut one of his promos when Christian’s old music hits, and he walks down and proceeds to tear into Edge as he announces his return. After a few words, Christian hits Edge with the mic and leaves the ring while Edge holds his head in pain. The announcers hype Christian vs. Edge for later in the show…

But we didn’t get that.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:01 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Guru Dave View Post
Well he could have tagged in with Cena. Besides he is not been listed as an ECW superstar yet. For the record, Santino is a bigger star than Jack Swagger. And we all know that it would have made a huge impact if Christian returned on Raw maybe for even one night it would have been worth it.
I get where people are coming from with Santino being a "bigger star," but he's certainly not a more credible star. Christian giving him The Unprettier makes about as big a statement as Christian beating up Beth Phoenix would. Hell, some fans might see that as more impressive.

If people did not want Christian to get lost in the shuffle, then I cannot understand why they would want him to return to RAW or SmackDown!, where nearly everyone is sorted into a major program.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:02 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated R Classic View Post
Another way would’ve been to have Edge come out to cut one of his promos when Christian’s old music hits, and he walks down and proceeds to tear into Edge as he announces his return. After a few words, Christian hits Edge with the mic and leaves the ring while Edge holds his head in pain. The announcers hype Christian vs. Edge for later in the show…

But we didn’t get that.
But then what for Christian? It's obvious where Christian defeating Jack Swagger goes: Christian wins the ECW Title at WrestleMania. But where does Christian going over Edge lead? Keep in mind that he CANNOT challenge for the WWE Championship at WrestleMania!
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:04 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
XL, can you please not exacerbate things by giving Noid a chance to play the martyr?
  • I am not responsible for what you infer.
  • I am not responsible for what you assume.
  • I am not responsible for what you make up.

Can you please get back to the fucking conversation at hand?
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:06 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Christian had a titantron. It was a pretty cool one, actually. The teaser and the fanfare was not needed, in my opinion. I guess the WWE wanted to do a surprise return. It says that you can't afford to miss a single episode of WWE programming (which we know is bullshit, but it makes a point), and reminds you that anything can happen in the WWE.

I mean, what exactly would hyping the return have done? Boosted the rating a little more? Gotten more people watching and complaining? This way, people can here about it, or see the recap videos on SmackDown! or RAW, and be like "Fuck, I've really got to watch now!" It pretty much accomplishes the same thing.
Shut up noid. Quit trying to justify WWE's blunders when you can't even justify your own.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:07 PM   #227
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Cole: Oh My! Christian just hit that poor defenseless lady with the unpreetier.
King: He is a face you idiot!
Cole: Vintage Christian their folks. He gave Beth what she deserved.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:07 PM   #228
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I actually just realised I don't really know what people's problem with Christian's debut actually was. Is it just because he wasn't fantasy booked into a WWE Title match at WrestleMania?
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:08 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Dave View Post
Cole: Oh My! Christian just hit that poor defenseless lady with the unpreetier.
King: He is a face you idiot!
Cole: Vintage Christian their folks. He gave Beth what she deserved.
Pretty much exactly how it would go.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:08 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Shut up noid. Quit trying to justify WWE's blunders when you can't even justify your own.
I have made three blunders in my life. I found no need to justify them, as people make blunders, and that should be accepted.

Also, this isn't a blunder by the WWE.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:10 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I actually just realised I don't really know what people's problem with Christian's debut actually was. Is it just because he wasn't fantasy booked into a WWE Title match at WrestleMania?
No, what? Most people's problem was that he was being teased to be part of a brothers vs brother feud that harkens back to the glory days of WWE and instead we get Christian just being thrown on ECW with no warning and no heads up. Just flipping through the channels, and then I see Christian v Jack Swagger, what the hell? This is how they bring him back?
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:13 PM   #232
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But seriously noid, shut the fuck up.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:25 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
No, what? Most people's problem was that he was being teased to be part of a brothers vs brother feud that harkens back to the glory days of WWE and instead we get Christian just being thrown on ECW with no warning and no heads up. Just flipping through the channels, and then I see Christian v Jack Swagger, what the hell? This is how they bring him back?
When was that teased?
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:29 PM   #234
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Shut up Juan. It made more sence for him to be in that angle given the time line of the attacks and his past with Edge and the Hardies. Prehaps he was ever named. Maybe it was just markish hope. But this was a crap return.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:35 PM   #235
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It made sense when the attacks happened, but since then it's clear that WWE is gonna run with Matt vs. Jeff and Edge vs. HHH at WM25. Where does Christian fit in?

I mean. i guess I agree that the actual debut was rather lackluster, but other than that, I really don't see a problem.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:40 PM   #236
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They should have been building his return, not just him showing up and facing swagger while Finlay is feuding with Swagger, completely confused me.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:45 PM   #237
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I dunno, I think that even if they would have hyped up his return on ECW, people would still be complaining because he's on ECW and not Raw or Smackdown.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:49 PM   #238
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It adds some depth to ECW. They need to get us maroons to watch the Sci Fi channel. This is the way the do it. ECW has good matches, and good YOUNG talent, save Finlay and Dreamer. Why not add to it?
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:56 PM   #239
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They would, but they wouldn't have complained about him not getting hyped.
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Old 02-12-2009, 05:06 PM   #240
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I miss the TV title. ECW should have one. Actually every show should have a title that is defended every freaking week.
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