I don't understand... (ECW SPOILERS)

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Fox To your first question, there are multiple ways. He could have entered the Royal Rumble, for instance, made a huge impact by eliminating several guys, and maybe even making it into the final four before being tossed out by someone like Randy Orton. He then shows up on RAW the next night to cut his big return promo before being interrupted by whoever his first feud would be against, maybe someone like Chris Jericho, and winning a quick verbal sparring match against him. Another way would've been to have Santino come out at the top of the hour to cut one of his usual promos when Christian's old music hits and he walks out on the stage and proceeds to tear into Santino as he announces his return. He gets into the ring and after a few words, hits Santino with the Unprettier. Bam. Christian is back on RAW.

I love you Fox, but I've got to argue this:

Christian returning in the Royal Rumble Match -- and losing -- makes him look better than debuting on ECW and beating the Champion there? Christian returning against Santino Marella makes him look better than returning and defeating the ECW Champion? Maybe it works better in your head, but in mine, it is an instant passage into the mid-card for Christian.

Originally Posted by Fox The most obvious and best though IS the proposed Jeff vs. Matt vs. Edge vs. Christian storyline heading into WrestleMania 25. At the Royal Rumble, Jeff has Edge beaten for the WWE Title when the ref takes a bump. Christian runs out and nails Jeff with a steel chair, the Unprettier, and Edge gets the win. The next episode of Smackdown, Edge comes out first thing and says that he had no idea that Christian was coming back, let alone that he was going to help him win back the WWE Title. He says thank you. Christian comes out and says that he didn't do it for Edge - he did it because he's gotten sick and tired of watching Jeff be the "brother that could." He reminds everyone that there was a point in time when the four of them were breaking into the business together - almost ten years ago. When Edge became WWE Champion, he said okay, that's fine. But now Jeff is a former WWE Champion, and Christian doesn't want them overshadowing him. He didn't cost Jeff the title to help Edge - he did it to make a statement: He's Back. Later it would've been revealed that Christian didn't try to run Jeff off the road and didn't knock him out at the hotel. At the rematch between Jeff and Edge at No Way Out, Matt shows up to "help" Jeff, but ends up knocking him out too. On the following Smackdown it's revealed that he was the one who did all of those things to Jeff, because he's sick of his little brother getting the spotlight. So you build to WrestleMania with Jeff being conflicted with his dreams of winning the WWE Title at WrestleMania and the turmoil of his brother turning on him - Matt with nothing but utter jealously and selfishness aimed at his brother and his own undying desire to win the WWE Title - Christian with his cockiness and uneasy relationship with his brother and his desire to make a splash in the WWE - and Edge, wanting nothing but to get away from these people with his belt intact. As far as who should've faced Jack Swagger for the ECW Title, MVP or R-Truth would have been great choices.

There are a few problems with the scenario you have suggested, although it is one of the most organic of the Edge/Christian/Matt/Jeff ideas I have read:

1) As you saw, Christian returning got a face pop. Do you really want the genuine interest in Christian to be wasted with him enforcing that he is a bad guy? It's playing against the fans, and it's going to confuse and upset them. Some people will cheer Christian hitting Jeff with a steel chair, and that's not exactly a visual you want. It sends the message that Jeff isn't worth cheering, and that this Christian guy is the good guy. It just makes things more confusing.

Christian returning as a face was absolutely the right move. Both from a creative and business standpoint. Hell, while he's hot, Christian might even move some merchandise. He was entertaining as hell on ECW, and he fills a gap in the face line-up that wasn't previously there. Triple H may actually be the closest thing the WWE has to a face with a zinging attitude right now.

2) In your scenario, you have three heels and one face. Maybe that is intentional, but it seems a little messy to me. Jeff Hardy is the only real character for the fans to attach to, so you're basically dedicating 75% of the angle to guys the fans don't like. That could turn some people off. If they were going to do something with those four men at WrestleMania, then I think a tag team match would have been the best option. That way you have two faces and two heels, and things a lot more even.

3) This idea immediately violates realism, because you do realise you have "the richest prize in the industry" being defended at the 25th anniversary of the Granddaddy of Them All between four former tag team specialists. Jeff Hardy is a guy with two wellness violations to his name; Matt Hardy has never been a "real World Champion" before, and has never really main eventing a PPV; Christian is only a few months off returning to the company after a three-year absence, prior to which he had no main event experience; with Edge probably being the only proven reliable main eventer of the four.

Again, it also leaves Triple H out in the cold. If you think that the WWE Title match at an event like WrestleMania XXV is going to leave out the guy who is banging the boss' daughter, and has been arbitrarily part of a World Title match every WrestleMania he could attend since WrestleMania X-8, for the fucking Hardy Boyz, you're delusional. Unless Triple H was injured with time to plan, there is no way the WWE Title match at WrestleMania is going to feature anyone but Triple H. If you want to include Edge, Christian, Matt Hardy and Jeff Hardy, you better make it a Five-Way.

Any WWE Title match idea for WrestleMania XXV that doesn't involve Triple H should immediately be disqualified for being unrealistic. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

As for MVP and R-Truth being suitable opponents for Jack Swagger? I'll maybe give you MVP. In fact, I would have loved to have seen MVP on ECW as a face. But that being said, Jack Swagger vs. Christian is definitely a bigger match. So even if you think you're taking away from the epicness of the other matches at the event (and with Edge vs. Triple H and Matt Hardy vs. Jeff Hardy, I don't think you are), you're at least bulking up those lower on the card.

[GD]

Originally Posted by Noid I love you Fox, but I've got to argue this: Christian returning in the Royal Rumble Match -- and losing -- makes him look better than debuting on ECW and beating the Champion there? Christian returning against Santino Marella makes him look better than returning and defeating the ECW Champion? Maybe it works better in your head, but in mine, it is an instant passage into the mid-card for Christian.

Well he could have tagged in with Cena. Besides he is not been listed as an ECW superstar yet. For the record, Santino is a bigger star than Jack Swagger. And we all know that it would have made a huge impact if Christian returned on Raw maybe for even one night it would have been worth it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Guru Dave Well he could have tagged in with Cena. Besides he is not been listed as an ECW superstar yet. For the record, Santino is a bigger star than Jack Swagger. And we all know that it would have made a huge impact if Christian returned on Raw maybe for even one night it would have been worth it.

I get where people are coming from with Santino being a "bigger star," but he's certainly not a more credible star. Christian giving him The Unprettier makes about as big a statement as Christian beating up Beth Phoenix would. Hell, some fans might see that as more impressive.

If people did not want Christian to get lost in the shuffle, then I cannot understand why they would want him to return to RAW or SmackDown!, where nearly everyone is sorted into a major program.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Noid I love you Fox, but I've got to argue this: Christian returning in the Royal Rumble Match -- and losing -- makes him look better than debuting on ECW and beating the Champion there? Christian returning against Santino Marella makes him look better than returning and defeating the ECW Champion? Maybe it works better in your head, but in mine, it is an instant passage into the mid-card for Christian.

Yes, I do think that. Why? BECAUSE IT'S ON RAW. Not only that, but Santino has been a very prevalent and, to an extent, over character on WWE TV for almost two years. The verbal interchange between them would have been classic, and Christian would have gotten more over in that one segment than he did in the two he was in on ECW. Again, his victory over Jack Swagger was nothing more than assisted build-up for Finlay vs. Swagger at No Way Out. In the big picture, he was just the object that Finlay used to get that last one-up before NWO.

A segment on RAW with Santino would have been a single cell dedicated to Christian - not build-up for another match. It puts the importance on Christian and his return, and not only that, but it would have been on the FLAGSHIP SHOW that gets nearly 3X the ratings ECW pulls in.

Originally Posted by Noid There are a few problems with the scenario you have suggested, although it is one of the most organic of the Edge/Christian/Matt/Jeff ideas I have read: 1) As you saw, Christian returning got a face pop. Do you really want the genuine interest in Christian to be wasted with him enforcing that he is a bad guy? It's playing against the fans, and it's going to confuse and upset them. Some people will cheer Christian hitting Jeff with a steel chair, and that's not exactly a visual you want. It sends the message that Jeff isn't worth cheering, and that this Christian guy is the good guy. It just makes things more confusing.

Christian is better as a heel. Yes, he does well as a face, but his heel character is far more charismatic than his face. He just plays that cocky arrogance to perfection. And as far as your argument that the people who cheer Christian hitting Jeff makes things "more confusing," let me point out a character named John Cena who gets 50% boos on EVERY SHOW, and is the company's "top face."

The marks are what the company cares about. They will boo the guy who is hitting their beloved Jeff Hardy in the head with a chair.

Originally Posted by Noid Christian returning as a face was absolutely the right move. Both from a creative and business standpoint. Hell, while he's hot, Christian might even move some merchandise. He was entertaining as hell on ECW, and he fills a gap in the face line-up that wasn't previously there. Triple H may actually be the closest thing the WWE has to a face with a zinging attitude right now.

That is fine and I understand what you're saying, but once again, Christian is at his best as a heel. Turn MVP face if you need a good face, but use the new guy to his fullest potential because otherwise you are succubusing yourself.

Originally Posted by Noid 2) In your scenario, you have three heels and one face. Maybe that is intentional, but it seems a little messy to me. Jeff Hardy is the only real character for the fans to attach to, so you're basically dedicating 75% of the angle to guys the fans don't like. That could turn some people off. If they were going to do something with those four men at WrestleMania, then I think a tag team match would have been the best option. That way you have two faces and two heels, and things a lot more even.

I did intentionally keep three heels in the feud and here's why: I believe it is Jeff Hardy's time. The match makes him the ultimate underdog in a way that Cena has never been portrayed - he is against three men who know him very well, one of which is his brother, two of which have wronged him deeply, and one who has the thing he wants more than anything. It is his dilemma - it's his story. And of course, it is he who would be winning the WWE title match at WrestleMania.

Originally Posted by Noid 3) This idea immediately violates realism, because you do realise you have "the richest prize in the industry" being defended at the 25th anniversary of the Granddaddy of Them All between four former tag team specialists. Jeff Hardy is a guy with two wellness violations to his name; Matt Hardy has never been a "real World Champion" before, and has never really main eventing a PPV; Christian is only a few months off returning to the company after a three-year absence, prior to which he had no main event experience; with Edge probably being the only proven reliable main eventer of the four. Again, it also leaves Triple H out in the cold. If you think that the WWE Title match at an event like WrestleMania XXV is going to leave out the guy who is banging the boss' daughter, and has been arbitrarily part of a World Title match every WrestleMania he could attend since WrestleMania X-8, for the fucking Hardy Boyz, you're delusional. Unless Triple H was injured with time to plan, there is no way the WWE Title match at WrestleMania is going to feature anyone but Triple H. If you want to include Edge, Christian, Matt Hardy and Jeff Hardy, you better make it a Five-Way. Any WWE Title match idea for WrestleMania XXV that doesn't involve Triple H should immediately be disqualified for being unrealistic. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

This is a very narrow view point, especially from you. Jeff Hardy has proven he deserves his spot at the top. He is extremely over with the crowd (maybe more so than Triple H), and has been putting on fantastic matches.

I'm not ignorant to the fact that they are not considered "top names in the business." That's why Cena vs. Orton would be the main event of Mania. It would probably go WWE Title 4-Way TLC Match, Undertaker vs. HBM, then the World Title match. That's how WrestleMania usually goes anyways.

As far as Triple H is concerned, he has shown that he is willing to make sacrifices for the company (he's still on Smackdown isn't he?). The time of "oh my god the WWE is the Triple H Show" are passed. He could wrestle in a high profile match against JBL or Big Show. It's just this time. Undertaker has done such things in the past (WM XIX, WM 22) - I don't see why Triple H isn't at that point in his career as well where he will take a backseat to the new guys for one year. It's not like he's going to retire soon. There have been and will be more Manias for Triple H, but this year he could take a backseat. It's not like he's left off the card.

Originally Posted by Noid As for MVP and R-Truth being suitable opponents for Jack Swagger? I'll maybe give you MVP. In fact, I would have loved to have seen MVP on ECW as a face. But that being said, Jack Swagger vs. Christian is definitely a bigger match. So even if you think you're taking away from the epicness of the other matches at the event (and with Edge vs. Triple H and Matt Hardy vs. Jeff Hardy, I don't think you are), you're at least bulking up those lower on the card.

Of course Christian vs. Swagger is a "bigger match." It's because Christian is involved in it! But he deserves more than bringing this new guy to a higher level - he deserves someone on his own level. Who is more on his level than his "brother" and the two guys he broke through with? The storyline is built in.


Anyways, this is a dead issue. The deal is done.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Fox Yes, I do think that. Why? BECAUSE IT'S ON RAW. Not only that, but Santino has been a very prevalent and, to an extent, over character on WWE TV for almost two years. The verbal interchange between them would have been classic, and Christian would have gotten more over in that one segment than he did in the two he was in on ECW. Again, his victory over Jack Swagger was nothing more than assisted build-up for Finlay vs. Swagger at No Way Out. In the big picture, he was just the object that Finlay used to get that last one-up before NWO. A segment on RAW with Santino would have been a single cell dedicated to Christian - not build-up for another match. It puts the importance on Christian and his return, and not only that, but it would have been on the FLAGSHIP SHOW that gets nearly 3X the ratings ECW pulls in.

If Christian had returned against Santino Marella, I guarantee just as many people would be bitching. "Christian should be in the main event!" Also, just as many people are going to see the recap videos of Christian returning on RAW, or SmackDown!, or even WWE.com that would have seen it live had it happened on RAW. And I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility that Christian could even be on RAW come next week.

How about this:

Christian hosts a special edition of The Peep Show on RAW, with the special occasion being that he is just happy to be back, and last night there was a feel good moment he just had to address. His guest is Shawn Michaels, and Christian asks HBK how it feels to be back, and HBK asks Christian the same question. Christian respectfully lets HBK talk about his goals now that he's free of JBL, until JBL himself shows up, tells HBK he got lucky and that he's an asshole for gambling his family's future, and that Christian doesn't belong on RAW and needs to get back to ECW. Cue the set-up of a Shawn Michaels & Christian vs. JBL & Jack Swagger match that night.

Being a main event on ECW is definitely more of an impact than being a mid-carder on RAW. I think that is essentially where we differ, but given that ECW is part of the WWE's universe, I think you just need to accept that they are occasionally going to get a bigger star than Mark Henry.

Also, just so you know: Anyone can see that they were building a Swagger vs. Christian ECW Title match from this. Well, I guess they could also do Finlay vs. Christian, but it was stressed so many times that Christian was there to go after the ECW Champion, whomever it may be. That's not putting over Finlay's program. If anything, Finlay fans should be bitching because Christian took the spotlight off his program.

Originally Posted by Fox Christian is better as a heel. Yes, he does well as a face, but his heel character is far more charismatic than his face. He just plays that cocky arrogance to perfection. And as far as your argument that the people who cheer Christian hitting Jeff makes things "more confusing," let me point out a character named John Cena who gets 50% boos on EVERY SHOW, and is the company's "top face." The marks are what the company cares about. They will boo the guy who is hitting their beloved Jeff Hardy in the head with a chair.

Yeah, Christian is better as a heel. That doesn't mean that the WWE should just take a guy that is hot off returning, and tell the fans they are wrong to be excited he is back, and use him as a heel immediately out the gate. By pushing Christian initially as a face, they have someone on their hands that is fresher, more over and that is probably going to move more merchandise than a lot of their other face characters.

Why not give Christian a chance to run as a face, and try and make some dough for the company? They're testing that out in the smaller waters first, and I don't blame them.

Originally Posted by Fox That is fine and I understand what you're saying, but once again, Christian is at his best as a heel. Turn MVP face if you need a good face, but use the new guy to his fullest potential because otherwise you are succubusing yourself.

I think we both agree that the WWE should use Christian to his fullest potential, but I think we have differing views of what that is. I think introducing the guy as a top face of the company, and then building him up to move onto either RAW or SmackDown! in the same position is using him better. You think that having him as a mid-card heel on one of the more crowded shows is a better use of his talents. That's fine. I'm not going to agree with you, though.

Originally Posted by Fox I did intentionally keep three heels in the feud and here's why: I believe it is Jeff Hardy's time. The match makes him the ultimate underdog in a way that Cena has never been portrayed - he is against three men who know him very well, one of which is his brother, two of which have wronged him deeply, and one who has the thing he wants more than anything. It is his dilemma - it's his story. And of course, it is he who would be winning the WWE title match at WrestleMania.

I can understand why you did that, but I don't know if I can see it working out. I'm just trying to think of programs like that which have worked. I'm not saying it wouldn't, but normally programs like that have two characters the fans can connect to, incase they reject one, or something goes afoul.

Originally Posted by Fox This is a very narrow view point, especially from you. Jeff Hardy has proven he deserves his spot at the top. He is extremely over with the crowd (maybe more so than Triple H), and has been putting on fantastic matches. I'm not ignorant to the fact that they are not considered "top names in the business." That's why Cena vs. Orton would be the main event of Mania. It would probably go WWE Title 4-Way TLC Match, Undertaker vs. HBM, then the World Title match. That's how WrestleMania usually goes anyways.

I get it wouldn't be headlining, but how does this take into account the Money in the Bank Ladder Match (which is happening, they pretty much advertised it the other week)? Don't you also think this is blowing their load? Also, isn't it ill-advised to put a guy who has just returned to the company in a WrestleMania main event like a month after he's back?

You are aware that this is the 25th anniversary of WrestleMania, don't you? This isn't going to be a Mania the WWE is going to sweep under the rug. They want big buys, and they're not really going to experiment too much with it. I don't think it makes sense to suggest they put forward a main event that consists of four guys, three of whom have pretty much been mid-carders up until last month (a bit of an exaggeration).

Also, if you can keep your load in for a little bit, you can build to that sort of match. What's wrong with doing Edge vs. Triple H, Matt Hardy vs. Jeff Hardy and Swagger vs. Christian, and then do the TLC Match at like fucking Vengeance or something? Those four guys aren't going anywhere.

Originally Posted by Fox As far as Triple H is concerned, he has shown that he is willing to make sacrifices for the company (he's still on Smackdown isn't he?). The time of "oh my god the WWE is the Triple H Show" are passed. He could wrestle in a high profile match against JBL or Big Show. It's just this time. Undertaker has done such things in the past (WM XIX, WM 22) - I don't see why Triple H isn't at that point in his career as well where he will take a backseat to the new guys for one year. It's not like he's going to retire soon. There have been and will be more Manias for Triple H, but this year he could take a backseat. It's not like he's left off the card.

But this is WrestleMania XXV. The 25th anniversary of WrestleMania. Sure, Triple H could look at it as just another WrestleMania, but this is a pretty big landmark event for the company. Also, with Triple H being the guy built up to be getting the title shot, do you really think he'll be content to just say "Oh, hi, Christian! What, you're back? Oh, awesome! Here, have my WrestleMania main event slot!" Spoilers for WrestleMania XXV: Triple H wins the WWE Title.

Originally Posted by Fox Of course Christian vs. Swagger is a "bigger match." It's because Christian is involved in it! But he deserves more than bringing this new guy to a higher level - he deserves someone on his own level. Who is more on his level than his "brother" and the two guys he broke through with? The storyline is built in.

No, I disagree. In WWE kayfabe, Christian has never been a World Champion. He is a multi-time IC Champion and Tag Team Champion. Jack Swagger is the quickest man to have ever won a World Title in the WWE's history. Granted, it's no acknowledged as being on a lower level than the WWE or World Heavyweight Titles, but it's still above anything Christian has ever held in the WWE.

As a smark, I can appreciate your views on how great Christian is, and what he deserves, but where is that evidence in kayfabe? Also, Christian gets a big smiley face against his name for making ECW look PPV worthy by challenging for the belt (if it wasn't going to be Christian, I had a feeling we were going to get Tommy Dreamer), and helping Swagger get a great showing at his first Mania. The WWE likes this Swagger kid, and he's really quite a good worker for how new he is. Give him a try sometime.

Also, how many times does it need to be said: At WrestleMania, it seems the WWE wants to do Edge vs. Triple H, which I feel they need to do, because there is no other WWE Championship program "big enough" for Mania. And that is the WWE's fault. They really need to elevate some talent. They also seem to want to do the big Matt vs. Jeff singles match at the event. That leaves Christian out in the dark. So you can have him go over Umaga, JBL, or Big Show, or you can have him walk out of the silver anniversary of WrestleMania with a World Championship.