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Old 07-01-2008, 03:12 AM   #41
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lol that is a fucked up nameplate.
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Old 07-01-2008, 03:47 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Edge was also the IC champion going into the show where he cashed the money in the bank case and had TWO title shot oppotunities that year.
No, Edge wasn't the IC Champion going in, Edge last IC Title Reign ended when he got injured in the Summer of 2004, Ric Flair was the Intercontinental Champion who was Edge first opponent that faithful night he cashed in.

He also only had one title shot, before he cashed in when he won the Gold Rush Tournament.

But you were right, Edge was built up alot better then Punk was, while Edge per say wasn't billed as a threat to the WWE Championship (He should of been if they were crediting Masters and Carlito as being contenders for it) He was mostly being built up as a Solid Mid Card Guy.

RVD was the same way honestly, with the Exception of Edge's second MITB Cash In, Everyone leading up to it was nothing more then a Midcarder thrusted into the Main Event.
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Old 07-01-2008, 03:49 AM   #43
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I'm thinking that it is just a temporary nameplate until they get a nice looking one for him. At least, I hope it is. You can tell that Punk is genuinely excited about having the big gold belt, too. Good for him.

WWKD already pointed out that ROH has a lot of champions representing out there (the big three being the top champions of the WWE, TNA and NOAH), but looking within the WWE: CM Punk is World Heavyweight Champion, Kofi Kingston is IC Champion, Mark Henry is ECW Champion, Matt Hardy is US Champion, John Morrison and The Miz are WWE Tag Team Champions; that's a lot of ECW representatives holding WWE belts.
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Old 07-01-2008, 03:53 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mister Sinister View Post
No, Edge wasn't the IC Champion going in, Edge last IC Title Reign ended when he got injured in the Summer of 2004, Ric Flair was the Intercontinental Champion who was Edge first opponent that faithful night he cashed in.

He also only had one title shot, before he cashed in when he won the Gold Rush Tournament.

But you were right, Edge was built up alot better then Punk was, while Edge per say wasn't billed as a threat to the WWE Championship (He should of been if they were crediting Masters and Carlito as being contenders for it) He was mostly being built up as a Solid Mid Card Guy.

RVD was the same way honestly, with the Exception of Edge's second MITB Cash In, Everyone leading up to it was nothing more then a Midcarder thrusted into the Main Event.
In late 2004, Edge and Chris Benoit did both pin Triple H in a match, which led to the World Heavyweight Championship being vacated (which The Game won right back in an Elimination Chamber, fuck I hated Triple H's schemes to get his World Title count up). I agree with your general point, but I think the specifics are out. I'm sure Edge would have received other title shots, too. I don't think it really matters. Paul London wrestled for the WWE Championship in his first WWE match. That doesn't make him a credible threat to the WWE Title now, sadly.

You have to keep in mind that CM Punk is a former ECW Champion, too. Sure, the belt is obviously behind the World Heavyweight Title and WWE Title, and it's had some questionable champions and a lot of guys have won the belt as their first major championship, which has led to its status being contested, but to the average fan, that would rank higher than being IC Champion or US Champion. And they'd probably consider it a valid World Title.

To a lot of people, this would actually be CM Punk's second run with a World Title. It's not exactly breaking the ice with the guy.
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Old 07-01-2008, 03:58 AM   #45
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You're right, I forgot about the Triple Threat.

However once upon a time, the ECW Title was considered one of the Big Three Titles, however it has dropped since then, and alot of people consider it the same as a Second-Tier Championship.

I'm not trying to diss on Punk because I love him, but He has pretty much been a mid-card guy breaking into the Main Event.

Also, You need to change your sig to include my new name into the group Noid.
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Old 07-01-2008, 04:12 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I don't think it is too early for Punk. If the man were winning every match before he cashed in, it'd be obvious when it was coming. Punk cashing in like he did was quite the shocking moment. Also, I don't think your average mark, or smark, for that matter, really cares about CM Punk's win-loss record. The man has been going over John Morrison and The Miz when they wrestle, and has been winning tag team matches when he's with top stars. Everyone remembers he won the Money in the Bank Ladder Match, and he pinned the current World Heavyweight Champion and most hated heel in the WWE to win the title. Plus, he also went over JBL.

But mark my words -- this is just a way to keep CM Punk down.
100% agree
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Old 07-01-2008, 04:39 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Heros Welcome View Post
From a kayfabe standpoint, in the end does it matter what his win lose record is? He has a guaranteed title shot no matter what his win lose record is. Plus he said he will keep a close eye on all title situations and cash in at the most opportune time...I don't even know why I am bothering defending this, because I really could care less what people think of what happened...

C M PUNK IS CHAMPION! This is the most I have marked out since Jericho returned and I am happy.
What?

It makes no sense that he would beat the best guy in the company when he has been on the losing streak to end all streaks. Kayfabe stand point? Do you have any clue what you're taking about?

Bottom line, whether people care or not is that every champions needs to be big business and they might as well just stuck the title on Lance Cade or someone else with a better push.

I said they should have been building Punk ages ago. I'm not a great fan of his but he has X factor and the people like him. When the people like someone, he should be pushed. Not doing this ruined far too many good business calls - Jericho and RVD pushes/burials for example.
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Old 07-01-2008, 04:42 AM   #48
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Wait, doesn't this mean by proxy, that Chavo would also be a credible world champ, since he beat Punk for the ECW title?
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Old 07-01-2008, 04:44 AM   #49
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no build up, transitional champion at best.Cena will be champ very soon.
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Old 07-01-2008, 04:49 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Mister Sinister View Post

He also only had one title shot, before he cashed in when he won the Gold Rush Tournament.
Gold Rush and Money In The Bank. How many title shots is this?

And Edge wasn't loosing clean the Charlie Haas and Val Venis for months leading to his title win.
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Old 07-01-2008, 05:32 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Gold Rush and Money In The Bank. How many title shots is this?

And Edge wasn't loosing clean the Charlie Haas and Val Venis for months leading to his title win.
Neither was CM Punk.

I get what you're saying about Punk being built up. It would be super cool if he could have won the World Title in a similar way to Stone Cold Steve Austin. I don't think the way that Punk won was "bad," though. Especially given that he is Mr. Money in the Bank. When you hold that title opportunity, going over in a sneak attack is the best way to do it. The fans marked out when Punk cashed in the shot, and it created a moment that lots of people are calling the best on RAW in a long time.

Marks will eat up anything the WWE throws at them. If John Cena and JBL didn't sink the WWE as WWE Champion, I doubt CM Punk will as World Heavyweight Champion. Let's just see how the ratings go before we start calling this a failure and a misfire. With the big gold belt, that he lost to Chavo Guerrero won't matter. Fans will see him giving JBL the GTS and think "Wow! CM Punk has become awesome!" even if they didn't think it before hand (which a lot of them would). Besides, by bringing the World Heavyweight Title to RAW, CM Punk is RAW's redeemer. He has brought them a World Title when John Cena and Batista couldn't. SmackDown! fans are also going to love him for taking the belt off Edge.

Smarks really couldn't give a fuck about how Punk was built heading into the match. It's CM fucking Punk with the fucking World Title! I appreciate the intellect you are trying to bring to the situation, Rob, but I think you are in a very small minority analysing the situation as much as you are. I actually think it is a very fast and efficient way to get CM Punk to fill the spot on RAW that was left with Triple H leaving for SmackDown!.

I'm curious as to see whether or not this will effect ratings. I'm not going to call CM Punk a draw, or anything, but it's something different, much like Edge ending John Cena's reign for the first time was, and that spiked ratings for a bit, didn't it?
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Old 07-01-2008, 05:39 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
It makes no sense that he would beat the best guy in the company when he has been on the losing streak to end all streaks. Kayfabe stand point? Do you have any clue what you're taking about?

Bottom line, whether people care or not is that every champions needs to be big business and they might as well just stuck the title on Lance Cade or someone else with a better push.
I love you, Rob, I hope you know that, but I have to side with Heros Welcomes here. From a kayfabe standpoint, your wins and losses do matter (more than they actually do from a political standpoint), but while holding Money in the Bank, who the fuck cares that you lost via disqualification to MVP? The whole purpose of the briefcase is that you can cash in whenever you want. After Edge had been beaten down by Batista, there was no reason to think that Punk was in over his head.

Punk's losing streak hasn't even been that bad. The guy's been winning some, too.

Your big business point is more valid, except that I think you are underestimating just how much people care about CM Punk at the moment. Not saying he will draw lots of money for the company, but I doubt it'd be worse than JBL as WWE Champion, for example. The guy was seen as an upper mid-carder at the very worst. Yes, even when losing to guys like Chavo Guerrero and Chuck Palumbo. Those moves were intended more to elevate Guerrero and Palumbo than lower Punk.

Punk has also arguably been at that level for a long enough time to finally get the nudge up. The man has never looked anything short of credible since signing with the WWE.
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Old 07-01-2008, 05:39 AM   #53
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It's gonna hurt Punk in the long run.
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Old 07-01-2008, 05:41 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I love you, Rob, I hope you know that, but I have to side with Heros Welcomes here. From a kayfabe standpoint, your wins and losses do matter (more than they actually do from a political standpoint), but while holding Money in the Bank, who the fuck cares that you lost via disqualification to MVP? The whole purpose of the briefcase is that you can cash in whenever you want. After Edge had been beaten down by Batista, there was no reason to think that Punk was in over his head.

Punk's losing streak hasn't even been that bad. The guy's been winning some, too.

Your big business point is more valid, except that I think you are underestimating just how much people care about CM Punk at the moment. Not saying he will draw lots of money for the company, but I doubt it'd be worse than JBL as WWE Champion, for example. The guy was seen as an upper mid-carder at the very worst. Yes, even when losing to guys like Chavo Guerrero and Chuck Palumbo. Those moves were intended more to elevate Guerrero and Palumbo than lower Punk.

Punk has also arguably been at that level for a long enough time to finally get the nudge up. The man has never looked anything short of credible since signing with the WWE.
I think wins and losses mean a hell of a lot more when the idea is you are meant to spend money to watch the champion. If they didn't, put the belt on Jamie Noble or someone.
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Old 07-01-2008, 06:44 AM   #55
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Im Noid. Most marks cant tell you who Beat who three months ago. They live in the now.

The WWE did a great job of putting Punk over last night IMHO, and those Smarks loved it. He Brought a title to raw, beat the guy making fun of JR in OK. and beat the guy that took Cena out.

Punk is the god of Kids right now. He is also over with alot of smarks, so they have it all nailed.

Now I agree they will fuck this up, and ruin Punk, but last night was good stuff.
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Old 07-01-2008, 06:47 AM   #56
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You people bitch about everything. You get your wishes and complain they're not done right. Watch the show or don't
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Old 07-01-2008, 07:03 AM   #57
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This whole thing reminds me of when Bret won the title out of nowhere in 92. I loved it then, and I love this now, it's a great way to make an instant main eventer, he's over, he can work and he can talk.

It's a way to get the IWC back into the WWE product, which in turn can generate more viewers, if that happens, we might be seeing more of what we want and less of what we don't.

I don't see him having the title for long though, potentially every main guy they have on the card could beat him one on one and it wouldn't be a shock, however, this could be the undercard champion that Rey Mysterio wished he could of been. As long as he's not overcomming the odds at the scale of Cena that is.

Rather than over analysis what could/would and should happen, I'm just going to enjoy this moment right now, this is the first time one of the 'our guys' won the belt since Benoit, as in someone who the IWC championed for years, weather he has it for a day or a year, I will always remember feeding my little boy at 4am, switching Raw on to see the overun and hearing Lillian Garcia introducing the NEW World Heavyweight Champion to take on JBL, I then put my baby to sleep, went downstairs and watched the whole thing on Sky Plus, the only other time I've been that compelled to do something like that was the return of Y2J, nothing else had made me want to stay up for RAW
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Old 07-01-2008, 07:29 AM   #58
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The fucked up the second they put the belt on him.

Months too early. He's been a total bitch since he won the title shot. Build momentum for fuck sake.
I was gonna say that to. I missed raw but woke up and saw the last match and was shocked to see Punk as the world champ,. but thought 'wtf? they could've built him up properly and they do this? stupid booking' but if you look at it from another angle, its good cause its a bit more shocking.
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Old 07-01-2008, 07:30 AM   #59
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Old 07-01-2008, 07:50 AM   #60
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I thought the situation was perfect, here was Edge, who used the MiTB briefcase at the most opportunistic times, getting a dose of his own medicine.

This is more than I ever thought WWE would push him.


Jeff Hardy is killing himself right about now as that could have been him.
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:02 AM   #61
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I thought the situation was perfect, here was Edge, who used the MiTB briefcase at the most opportunistic times, getting a dose of his own medicine.

This is more than I ever thought WWE would push him.


Jeff Hardy is killing himself right about now as that could have been him.
There's hope for Jeff, he could always win the title off Smackdown from........

Oh well nevermind
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:07 AM   #62
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If the guy cant keep Maria, i truely doubt he manages to keep this belt for more then a couple weeks.
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:07 AM   #63
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PUNK IS NOT COMING OUT
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:51 AM   #64
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Punk's not coming out, deal.
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:56 AM   #65
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So ecstatic.

Anyway, I'm thinking that Batista will be the one who takes the belt off Punk down the line...jealousy that Punk actually was the one to beat Edge and that Bats did all the work. Batista wins the title and the mandatory rematch, and we get Cena winning the Rumble again, and there's your WM main event I guess.
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:57 AM   #66
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Punk's not coming out, deal.


Punk is a World Heavyweight Champion and got to bone Maria. He beats me if lifetime achievement poker and takes all the chips.
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:01 AM   #67
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It's also a bit of a masterstroke having CM Punk win the World Title in Oklahoma. If Punk were a politician, he'd probably do better in blue states more so than red. This helps Punk connect to the southern audience a bit more (championing Jim Ross and all).
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:29 AM   #68
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:29 AM   #69
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Alright, here's my thoughts on the matter. I thought it was incredible watching it last night. The whole program was a great show. Up and Down the entire program. It was a nice breath of fresh air. But don't expect it to last long folks.

Anyway, back to Punk. Like I said, very cool segment. I do agree with Rob on certain points. I actually think Punk should of won the Title a while ago. He had more momentum back then. Last night he kind of acted like a heel. Coming in when Batista already did all the work and then jumping up and down saying hurry up and ring the bell. Like he didn't want to even give Edge a fight. Little odd for a babyface. Really, the whole win was cheap and I do wish he could of won it in a match on PPV.

But like someone else said, this is 2008. Belts are worth a crap. Nothing is built anymore. Everything is rushed. And most things are done for the now. It's terrible and not the way to build a show, but it's realistic. So in saying that, Punks win was fun. It came off great on live TV. I thought they did a good job of saving his win from being cheap by having him beat JBL at the end of the show.

How long will his run last? It will end at Summerslam, if not sooner. It definately does not look like they are positioning him as a long term champ.
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:34 AM   #70
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Yeah, I sorta thought it was heelish on Punk's part...but then again in this situation I think it worked because it was Edge, who won the belt twice in the same manner so it was all coming back to bite him in the ass. If it was some other random heel though it'd prolly feel like "eh".

At first I was thinking we'd see a build to a Cena/JBL/Punk 3-way, but after Cryme Tyme's random intervention...I dunno, maybe we'll see JBL side up with DiBiase and Rhodes, the "best squad money can buy" or something. It'll be a temp feud obviously, only running till GAB.

This would free Punk up to have a proper match with Edge at the PPV...even though they are on different shows, you have to almighty former champion's rematch clause as a tailor-made excuse. But then again I'm not sure who HHH would feud with in the interim.

I'm just really interested in seeing how this all plays out.
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:45 AM   #71
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I think it's a great way to do it by the way. It comes out of nowhere but it makes a big impact, it's a splash.

By the way, I think it's because WWE is really desperate to make a change and turn the corner with new talent. Look at the champions other than HHH. They have Hogan and Warrior stars in Cena and Batista but at the same time WWE is probably looking for a face who is over among other fans, someone who's more of an HBK or Bret like star.

Could he have been built up better? Yea sure but in any situation things can be better. It's not like everyone is gonna get the 2 year IC title reign and then the Rumble win and title win in the main event at Mania.
I think it's great. All that matters is that they make him a main eventer now, he was already ECW champion and MITB, thats really no different than if they had thrown the IC belt on him for a year. He's over as fuck and this is just a launching pad
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:54 AM   #72
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Even if he's a transitional champion who gives a fuck. Mick Foley was a transitional champion. So was Bret at first. Edge started out as one too.
Once you've won the title the first time management is much more likely to put it back on you at some point when a change is needed rather than risk someone new.
Even if he exists as a transitional champion, or takes a while to break out of that role, he's still a made man and in the main event for the forseeable future.
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:59 AM   #73
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I am really feeling heel turns for John Cena and Batista. Don't ask me why, but CM Punk having to defend the belt against them, Chris Jericho, Randy Orton, Kane and maybe William Regal would make for some pretty sweet storylines.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:05 AM   #74
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:07 AM   #75
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But seriously, if I were ROH, I'd be putting out "The Best of CM Punk in ROH" and "The Best of Samoa Joe in ROH" DVD sets, even if they include some of the same matches.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:16 AM   #76
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I am really feeling heel turns for John Cena and Batista. Don't ask me why, but CM Punk having to defend the belt against them, Chris Jericho, Randy Orton, Kane and maybe William Regal would make for some pretty sweet storylines.
I see Batista turning and beating Punk at some point. Summerslam like I said. But the rest I cannot see. They desperately need a top heel and a Batista/Cena program is looming

I'm almost believing the reason they gave Punk the Title last night was to get the title on Raw in the most sufficient way as to not make Edge look bad and to get a World Title on Raw. It was a quick out for them. Batista kicks the shit out of Edge and Punk finishes it. This allows thier flagship show to get their World Title back and allows Edge to move into a feud with Trips.

I just don't see Punk lasting long at all and his reign is going to be filled with Cena/Batista in the mixture. I just hope they don't make him look like an ass. i.e. make him look like a weakling compared to the others. Unfortunately, I see the Chris Benoit treatment ahead for this short title run.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:18 AM   #77
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They have like 3 volumes of best of Punk
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:20 AM   #78
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I see Batista turning and beating Punk at some point. Summerslam like I said. But the rest I cannot see. They desperately need a top heel and a Batista/Cena program is looming

I'm almost believing the reason they gave Punk the Title last night was to get the title on Raw in the most sufficient way as to not make Edge look bad and to get a World Title on Raw. It was a quick out for them. Batista kicks the shit out of Edge and Punk finishes it. This allows thier flagship show to get their World Title back and allows Edge to move into a feud with Trips.

I just don't see Punk lasting long at all and his reign is going to be filled with Cena/Batista in the mixture. I just hope they don't make him look like an ass. i.e. make him look like a weakling compared to the others. Unfortunately, I see the Chris Benoit treatment ahead for this short title run.
I thought Batista might run down and interfere in the main event, costing Punk the title...anyways as long as he doesn't get Rey Rey'd, it's all good. Having Rey and Cena come out and congratulate him gave him a good rub, hopefully he'll keep interacting with the established mains
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:26 AM   #79
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:28 AM   #80
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Honestly, I would love to see Bats slowly fucking snap out of jealousy, destroy punk, and let them have a PPV or 2 program. Hell, give the guy a break, build it to Survivor Series. Bats wins the title there, and Cena wants some, but Bats keeps ducking him. Cena Wins the rumble, and there would be a decent WM 25 Main Event if they did it right.

I honestly think Bats as a heel will work very well, and could really make a change for the WWE.

I am just shocked they did this, with all the "heat" on Punk.
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