I have a question about Gamergate

[Kalyx triaD]

And really; I already said at the top of this thread take everything I say with a grain of salt. You don't wanna take me seriously because I said cunt or you think I'm using SJW as an insult - fine. There's a lot of GG peeps who can't wait to discuss this and answer questions. Go for it.

[BigDaddyCool]

The fact that you use the term SJW at all kind of invalidates any point you hope to make

[Kalyx triaD]

That doesn't make sense but okay. It's cool. There are others who are willing to discuss GamerGate with you if you feel I'm not up to task.

[BigDaddyCool]

Kalyx, replace the gamergate situation with the civil rights movement from the 60's. The way your side is acting is basically the same as the KKK. Right down to death threats and lynching. How do you not see that? You are a KKK member.

[Tom Guycott]

Basically, the TL;DR crux of the entire debate comes down to misinformation.

[Destor]

After reading Kalyx's posts I'm both more confused and more disinterested than I was originally.

[The Rogerer]

Objectivity is a lie, enthusiast press isn't journalism, advertising funded writing is the biggest influence, these people aren't comfortable with women.

[Destor]

Originally Posted by The Rogerer Objectivity is a lie, enthusiast press isn't journalism, advertising funded writing is the biggest influence, these people aren't comfortable with women.

followed by "Reform or terrorism will occur."

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by Destor After reading Kalyx's posts I'm both more confused and more disinterested than I was originally.

What do you wanna know specifically?

[Destor]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD What do you wanna know specifically?

Ive seen four pages of you doing just that and im going to have to pass.

[Kalyx triaD]

That's cool. I'll be updating this thread with any significant to this thing. Laters.

[drave]

So you generally don't agree with getting advertisers to back off? Okay, that's cool.

If that is what you deduce, okay I guess? I do not agree with a method that attacks a company as a whole if an issue exists with only a "radical few". But since you stated previously that you have "never heard that stance before" I will expect it to fall flat. Not a big deal, just a different viewpoint.

Nobody says they don't condone it to infer it doesn't occur. Nobody's saying it doesn't happen. I don't get what you're getting at aside from 'It's all your fault' - which is something I can never reply to. What would you have us do? Stop the consumer/readership concerns of the movement so the byproduct harassment can stop? How many other groups and movements would you want to completely stop because of the actions of bad apples within those movements/groups?

I think this entire "movement" has gone so far off track that yes, it needs to stop, ON BOTH SIDES, and be repackaged with a more organized effort with clear objectives. I get the objectives of the movement when it started, but it was derailed in less than 48 hours and has only continued to worsen. Anything positive gained moving forward will only be overshadowed with the harassment/threat news that helped the movement gain so much popularity. Also do not understand why people care so much about viewpoints of people that "don't know what they are talking about".

So I would ask my question again but replace CoD with FPS Community.

Sure. Now quickly give examples of other genre games involved in swatting incidents so you can tell me how wrong I am and feel better

We have no control over people taking advantage of the situation. None at all.

Exactly. Yet another, if not the prime reason, to reboot.

Sloppy? We contacted PR firms via email and Twitter. What is the 'clean' way of doing that if simple emails are 'sloppy'?

How about dealing with the few bad apples that GG has issues with? Not working? Involving the entire company is the wrong answer, in my thoughts, because parties not involved are dragged into it. As for an alternative method, I cannot answer it as I do not give it enough thought process. This entire situation is so damn dumb it blows my mind how "srs bsnss" it has become. Then I remember - the internet. No way in hell this would ever happen if things were not from behind an anonymous screen.

That's fine. If you like I can PM you a list of GamerGate supporters who have been dox'd or generally harassed. I don't think this would change your mind about that, but later on I could give you that gamer collateral damage if you don't think it happened.

I was referring to collateral damage from the name calling, as you referenced here:

A valid point, but you can't use that point without acknowledging the harm that comes from sites calling all gamers misogynist, racists, terrorists.

I am a gamer. I read the articles when they started popping up. I shrugged it off as someone who did not know what they were talking about and moved on..... because that is exactly what has happened. However, because of HOW it was done, mainly with Sarkeesian, everyone reacted exactly how she expected. While she may think the ideas of hers are valid concerns, she delivers it in a way where she knows the reactions she will garner before anything is even said. Well done, playing right into her hand.

A female YouTuber was one of the first to get doxxed and she made a video about the matter. We can start with that if you like. And @Nero, a journalist who is sympathetic to GG, had a syringe sent to his house.

I never said anything to the contrary, did I? The journos are as guilty as the GG activists when it comes to this behavior.

It seems to be that you're willing to carry the idea of journalists and indy game devs being doxxed and harassed, enough for this to be a main point of yours, while gamers getting trolled the same way is met with grains of salt. Only after I speak about gamers getting this treatment did you consider how hard it is to prove anything. Hell, you technically didn't see any journalists and devs get doxed either. Everybody's word against everybody's! Who's lying who's wrong?!

I have never denied that it wasn't happening on both ends. The "who is lying" game is similar to that of countries who aren't necessarily enemies, but not buddies either. Think US and Russia relations right now. Not the best of friends yet not really "enemies". Both sides manipulate the other but neither "condone or admit" to anything negative.

Originally Posted by Drave I am talking financial damage. People that have zero to do with this could be financially impacted thanks to the stupidity of both sides of this nonsensical issue. Devs having to move ENTIRE FAMILY HOUSEHOLDS because of a group of trolls that want to "doxx" people?

Originally Posted by Drave Nothing that anyone is fond of, yet it continues to happen and the GG movement directly correlates with every doxxing that has occurred on the few journalists in the recent months/weeks. There is no concrete way to prove that GG activists are or aren't responsible for said doxxing (which is not what I am saying), other than "we don't condone it". However, if the GG "movement" never occurred, the doxxing of said individuals never would have either.

The bold portion you even agreed to by your own admission.

If you're at a place where you just want it to stop, I get that. But as you said it probably won't stop. The unfortunate trolling will continue on both sides until we root out the assholes (which is a more likely unilateral victory than journalists simply apologizing and not calling us ISIS).

I am at the same place I have been all along. This entire situation is very silly. It has now degenerated into something so distasteful, it makes me ashamed of the gaming community as a whole, on BOTH sides of the spectrum. Continuing this will do nothing positive for anyone, ever.

That troll is a game developer. And most of her side make tweets just like that. So they're all trolls?

I believe you are smarter than the context of that statement. If you could not tell that this tweet:


Is such a trolling statement meant to garner attention then your cause is in worse shape than I thought. Dev or not, that statement achieved what it set out to, and that is attention. The type of attention does not matter, and such statements are meant to make people rage. Again, predictably behaving just as the trolls want. If you wish to make a sweeping generalization that "all devs are trolls" from me pointing out that she clearly was trolling, I am not really sure what to say to that other than "okay".

My main point:

If the root cause of the movement is to hold true, then things need to be restarted under a new label/movement. This entire thing escalated to obscene levels before it even truly took off. Nothing that anyone does, from either side, will net anything positive for the gaming community, gamers in general or the industry as a whole.

[Kalyx triaD]

Let's say we buckle and reboot ourselves. New name, a leadership counsel, all of that. But then the trolling continues. What then?

[drave]

It will be about timing. Gamergate's root causes are nothing out of the ordinary nor is there anything wrong with most of them as you laid them out:

- The end of gender bias in games journalism.

- Disclaimers of any prior relationships between journalist and subject (Kotaku and others have already started this to their credit).

Still think this one is no one's business - on either side.

On a broader, yes, certain paid articles and corporate shilling needs to end or at least downplay.

Writers need to differentiate between a game review (which should focus on merits of the game), and their own personal of a game's subtext. This is a tricky line, but a lot of us have been bothered with how game articles are written nowadays. Polygon's Bayonetta 2 review said nothing that would help a potential buyer, but it sure was sexist, eh? They can have blog spaces for that conversation. Gaming needs to be about gaming again.

Is this the review you refer to?

If so, they talk about both subjects - graphics, new gameplay featuers, as well as the over-sexualization of the main character. Oddly enough, a pretty decent chunk of the game is it's art direction, which has to do with her clothes coming off as you chain higher combos. As as integral part of the game mechanics, albeit visually, it can still be offensive to some people and they can have their opinion. In addition, you do not know that it did not help a potential buyer, unless you believe everyone is as in-depth a gamer as you say.

The end of toxic discourse in the gaming community. GamerGate and Game Journos can together make a huge stand against this age old behavior, we're too busy blaming each other. Nobody, nobody wants to be harassed, threatened or dox'd. Together we need to vilify this behavior. Understandably you can't stop a troll from being a troll, but since we both hate them, we can certainly make their lives hell.

Both groups will lose (and already have) against the trolls. They have nothing better to do and will ruin the cause (as they have) for both sides. If GG echoes the bolded sentiment, I would advise to rethink that strategy.

Integrity, not even of the job specific kind.

The problem lies that as the GG movement grew, the trolling was way out in front and now any and any associations are tied to the movement. Just as any "hot button" multimedia topic, it will die down given time. It is before that time (such as now) that GG, as a unified movement, to reinvent themselves and their image.

Anything at this point will be lost in the turmoil and both sides will point fingers at one another, trolls will help fuel the propaganda by pointing fingers for both sides as well. No one wins, no one is winning and both sides look like complete asshats.

[Innovator]

So Felicia Day posted this on tumblr

They have not dissipated. And because of the frightening emotions and actions attached to what has happened over the last month, the events are sure to have a long-lasting affect on gaming as a culture. The fact that it has affected me, to the point where I decided to cross the street last weekend away from those gamers, was heartbreaking. Because I realized my silence on the issue was not motivated by some grand strategy, but out of fear that the issue has created about speaking out. I have been terrified of inviting a deluge of abusive and condescending tweets into my timeline. I did one simple @ reply to one of the main victims several weeks back, and got a flood of things I simply couldn’t stand to read directed at me. I had to log offline for a few days until it went away. I have tried to retweet a few of the articles I’ve seen dissecting the issue in support, but personally I am terrified to be doxxed for even typing the words “Gamer Gate”. I have had stalkers and restraining orders issued in the past, I have had people show up on my doorstep when my personal information was HARD to get. To have my location revealed to the world would give a entry point for a few mentally ill people who have fixated on me, and allow them to show up and make good on the kind of threats I’ve received that make me paranoid to walk around a convention alone. I haven’t been able to stomach the risk of being afraid to get out of my car in my own driveway because I’ve expressed an opinion that someone on the internet didn’t agree with.

Then this happened:

Just minutes after her post was made, a commenter with the username “gaimerg8” posted what they claimed was her address and personal email in the comment section below the post. The comment, and the entire comment section, have since been removed.

[drave]

And that is the biggest problem.

The legitimate "Gamer Gate" movement alleges not to take part in said actions. However, the vile people that decide to make private info public have hijacked the name and will continue to take these types of actions indefinitely.

Sucks for everyone involved

[road doggy dogg]

Fucking scumbags.

[drave]

If this whole thing does not stop, I can see the government stepping in and justifying ending internet anonymity citing this entire fiasco.

[Heisenberg]

Felicia Day is a saint, if she is in danger then I'll make whoever harms her pay.

[drave]

Indeed. Just gotta find them first. If someone is savvy enough to gain access to that level of personal info, they will be difficult, if not impossible to find

[Hanso Amore]

The biggest question here is at th root, who fucking cares and why does this even matter.

This is a scandal to the self obsessed, entitled, out of touch with reality Internet generation. Who fucking cares. This isnt important at all.

guys, we have EBOLA AND ISIS AND THE WORLD IS ENDING.

[road doggy dogg]

Didn't a few of these clowns threaten to shoot up a university the one woman was set to speak at?

[Vastardikai]

I know that while TotalBiscuit is a big supporter of Gamergate, Angry Joe is not. There were many remarks I saw about how he wasn't in favor of Journalistic Ethics.

#3 on this video, by the way...

[road doggy dogg]

Laura Croft

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by drave Still think this one is no one's business - on either side.

Is this the review you refer to?

No. That review was more than likely a bait article. It was less than three whole paragraphs and it reads like a caricature of what they know we hate about game today's game reviews. I'm referring to how reviews were written in the last console generation. I've had issues with that years before GamerGate.

If so, they talk about both subjects - graphics, new gameplay featuers, as well as the over-sexualization of the main character. Oddly enough, a pretty decent chunk of the game is it's art direction, which has to do with her clothes coming off as you chain higher combos. As as integral part of the game mechanics, albeit visually, it can still be offensive to some people and they can have their opinion. In addition, you do not know that it did not help a potential buyer, unless you believe everyone is as in-depth a gamer as you say.

I would assume the kind of person, not even a hardcore gamer just a casual type, could look at Bayo's marketing and kinda know what they're in for. So while most people may be as in-dept as me and others, they don't need to. Hell, the Bayo2 review you linked - that writer doesn't need to be a versed in action games as I am either. He didn't need to be the kind of guy who Platinum rated all of Bayo1's challenged, or climbed 30 levels in DMC4's Bloody Palace; but there are degrees.

A lot of today's game reviews are shallow and at times totally paid parts of the marketing. It's easy to spot. Does a guy reviewing a fighting game need to know why meter management is important in BlazBlue? No. Hell, I actually like when they reveal they don't know about that deep stuff, but what is the value of a review written from the other end of the spectrum? People who seem to not know the point of the game? What good is that to a potential buyer?

If I started writing car reviews, with my extremely casual knowledge of cars, and said something like, "The new Camaro may excite fans of a certain yellow autobot, but unless it wants to further push women away from the sacred car enthusiast circle - it should really consider women's body proportions in more ways than simple seat adjustment."

Now I certainly have a right to say that, but what do you think will be the common reaction? Here's this guy who doesn't seem to know duck about cars, critiquing cars, and applying politics where nobody saw it before. I mean, this could help potential buyers. Perhaps some women would like to read that message, but I'm guessing other women who knows their cars would still find me ridiculous.

Let's make it interesting; I decide to Tweet to detractors of my marvelous Camaro that their beef with my piece is just them defending their boys club and rejecting female interests. I then make a follow-up piece that challenges Chevy to make a statement this the matter of female accommodation. I ignore female car enthusiast telling me I'm using shame tactics, and make implications that the male critics are just dismissive of women's issues. Remember; I'm a guy who still knows shit about cars next to an enthusiast.

My problem is not that people have opinions. It never was. But I'm learning throughout this debacle that people think opinion are all weighted the same by virtue of being opinions. And that's not how it works. Me saying my review could help potential buyers falls flat when much better reviews from more versed people would do a better job helping the same consumers.

The problem lies that as the GG movement grew, the trolling was way out in front and now any and any associations are tied to the movement. Just as any "hot button" multimedia topic, it will die down given time. It is before that time (such as now) that GG, as a unified movement, to reinvent themselves and their image.

Curious; how would we go about that? Because we'd still hold journalists accountable and contact companies when needed. Changing the name would not put trolls at bay, they'd just act out under this new GG 2.0. And if anything, rebranding the movement would also validate that most of the harassment has been on our side. Like the republican ad that needed to say they're people too. We don't need to rebrand ourselves as people against harassment because we are right now people against harassment. No matter what we call ourselves trolls will take advantage.

[Kalyx triaD]

This man was on NPR recently:

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by drave And that is the biggest problem. The legitimate "Gamer Gate" movement alleges not to take part in said actions. However, the vile people that decide to make private info public have hijacked the name and will continue to take these types of actions indefinitely. Sucks for everyone involved

Kinda falls back to that Tea Party analogy. What started as a collection of cons and libs coming together about taxation and fiscal responsibility was invaded by droves of right wing nutjobs who are convinced that the anti-Christ, unamerican black president will take guns, unilaterally abolish term limits, and impose martial law. There may be people who believe in the initial cause, but the name has been dragged through the mud- mostly by assholes who gleefully drag it through the mud and feeling like they belong.

So in this, where you have hundreds of people on mission about trying to keep a discernable division between journalism, opinions, and propaganda, you have THOUSANDS under the same banner who just think its fun to harass folks in anonymity and claim they're doing it for "women" or "race" or whatever thin veil they decide to wear... and all the while building a larger and larger pool of ammunition for those they are fighting against to point and say "look at these monsters!"

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Both groups are mislabeled also. Boston Tea Parties dropped tea because they didn't have representation in Parliament. Tea Parties had representation in Congress but didn't like how they did things.

Gamergate is mislabed because there is no controversy other than them existing. There was no elicit affair that benefited the girl except for probably bad gamer nerd sex.

[Destor]

Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon Both groups are mislabeled also. Boston Tea Parties dropped tea because they didn't have representation in Parliament. Tea Parties had representation in Congress but didn't like how they did things. Gamergate is mislabed because there is no controversy other than them existing. There was no elicit affair that benefited the girl except for probably bad gamer nerd sex.

Probably the most accurate thing said on the topic.

[DaveBrawl]

I am all in favor of Kalyx trolling Chevrolet and possibly forcing them to change the Camaro.

[Kalyx triaD]

ooohhh

[Miotch]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD Let's say we buckle and reboot ourselves. New name, a leadership counsel, all of that. But then the trolling continues. What then?

Why reboot? Why not just shut it down completely? The aim of what you're trying to accomplish isn't going to happen, and frankly it's somewhat silly. You can point to trolls being the bad guys all you want, but even if that is the case the movement gives them the cover to do so. Read an article on Uproxx today that sums it up better than I could say it.

What would you say to any GamerGaters who got to the end of this instead of skipping down to the comments? Simply this: If you look at the facts, people are being hurt. Because of their opinions about games. Games are fun, but they shouldn’t be the most meaningful thing in your life. If you put a consumer product ahead of the health and safety of other people, that shows a profound lack of perspective. In short, it’s not about you. So stop trying to make it that way.

People are getting hurt. Even if it's "not actually your movement" why not just knock it the fuck off for the greater good?

[Miotch]

And before you respond, the greater good is not transparency in video game press.

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by Miotch Why reboot? Why not just shut it down completely? The aim of what you're trying to accomplish isn't going to happen.

Then I guess we have nothing to talk about, sorry.

[Miotch]

So you don't have any answers to my questions. OK then.

[Kalyx triaD]

I don't see any question you can't gleam answers from past posts in this thread. If you're not satisfied with them I honestly can't help you. When you ask why not shut it down, and then posit that we'll never accomplish our goals - what am I supposed to say to that? You seem fairly decided and don't seem to be inquiring from an honest, neutral stance. I can't help that, dude. If you think GG is this stupid thing that will not get anything done, there's nothing I can tell you to change that. I'm not gonna go back and forth over that.

And I can't help but think some of you kinda want me to devolve into this frothing raged gamer you have pictured in your head when you mention GG. All I've ever done in this thread was explain the situation best I can, drop some links, explain the goals and actions, and overall be that GG representative. Your thoughts after all that are well and good, and I even suggested you find another GG peep if you feel my posts were unsatisfactory.

But here's what isn't on the table:
- Me agreeing that GG is 'stupid' and should end outright, at best I could agree that some kind of reboot could be order since the name is tainted possibly beyond repair.
- Being pushed into defending the harassment of Zoe Quinn (or anybody), after already posting we weren't about that.
- Agreeing that Quinn having sex started GG, when I already said it was the press reaction that started the movement in regard to games journalism.

I've made myself available for questions about all of this and I simply can't promise you'd be satisfied with the answers. That's all on you. I can only answer to the best of my ability. And questions that double back on stuff I already covered I just don't have the patience to reiterate. Drave is a good example of somebody asking perfectly fair and honest questions. Don't ask me to respond to loaded questions and statements that ignore past posts.

[Raven Reaper]

*applause* on this one...

[Raven Reaper]

Anita just tweeted saying IT'S MOSTLY MEN who are into violent gun shootings.. She just lost credibility for GamerGate overall. Fuck this.

[Wehttam]

explain why

[Raven Reaper]

Why?! That's like saying, Women aren't violent they don't shoot people. Only men do that.. Then again, women who are in prisons don't exist to her at all. Go figure.

Generalizing harassment or threats of gun violence based on one gender doesn't help either. It's a fucking social issue not a gender based issue. Got it?

Example: I'm a man myself and I Don't own guns and she says that kind of shit in my face, well, she can fuck off. I'm not a gun owner violent shithead am I?

Quote of the day to sum this up: "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. [...] those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis