Hogan at Wrestlemania 25?

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by thedamndest So you don't want Jericho to go over Hogan?

I DO want to see Jericho go over Hogan (cleanly) ONLY if it were to ultimately result in Jericho becoming the #1 or co #1 guy in the WWE one day.

Unfortunately however, this will never happen. Orton, Batista, HHH, and Cena are all (way) ahead of Jericho on the depth chart. Jericho, at best, is only a glorified transitional world champion.

If Jericho goes over Hogan and doesn't get pushed as a the #1 guy or co#1 guy in the company, then Jericho going over Hogan is a waste. Because of this, it wouldn't make sense for Jericho to go over. This is why I believe that it would be better if Hogan or Austin defeated Jericho at Mania. That way - someone like Austin's rep wouldn't be diminished by having him job to a guy that will never be THE #1 guy.

If Hogan or Austin are to job, it should only be to the likes of Cena, Orton, or Batista.

[thedamndest]

Depth chart right now, maybe. But in a few years Batista, HBK, Taker, JBL, will all be gone. HHH may even be a part-timer at that point. They are going to need to fill the ME somehow, and Jericho slides up in there quite nicely.

Cena/Orton/Batista would gain nothing from beating the legend, and Jericho would have the better match. I could see how you are concerned about protecting the legends' reputations, but between The Condemned and Hogan Knows Best, I don't think that is an issue.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by thedamndest Depth chart right now, maybe. But in a few yearsBatista, HBK, Taker, JBL, will all be gone. HHH may even be a part-timer at that point. .

That's the key right there....."in a few years."

In a few years (when the guys you mentioned will hypothetically retire), the fans won't care that Jericho beat 'insert legend here' a few years back.

Wrestling fans have a VERY short term memory when it comes to these things.

Jericho should get a win over a big named legend shortly before the guys you mentioned (or one of the guys you mentioned) retires so that Jericho can immediately take that spot.

Even with that being said, if Jericho hasn't done anything of significance between now and then, then there's no way he'll be as over (i.e. think of how over Jericho was in 2000 compared to 2003).

Furthermore - if/when those guys (that you listed) retire, it would probably be in the WWE's best interest to push someone newer (i.e. Rhodes or Dibiase....who perhaps by this time, will be 'seasoned'...and ready to maximize their peak).

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by thedamndest Cena/Orton/Batista would gain nothing from beating the legend .

In these instances, it wouldn't be who goes over. It would be more about having a "high profile match" (i.e. biggest star from current era vs. biggest star from past era).

In this regard, it would be similar to Rock/Hogan or Rock/Austin.

I don't disagree with you that Jericho vs. 'legend' would not only be the better match, but could also potentially help Jericho more. However - in order for the latter to occur, the WWE would have to IMMEDIATELY (i.e. 0-2 months) push Jericho as their #1 guy.....and by #1 guy, I do NOT mean "glorified transitional champ.' I litereally mean their #1 or co #1 guy. Unfortunately, I do not see this happening.

Because of this - I would much rather see a "top guy vs. top guy of the past" type match rather than see some glorified transitional champ defeat a legend, and still be in the same position afterwards.

[thedamndest]

Ideally they would have Jericho get this hypothetical big legend win at WM 25 and then keep pushing him and then give him that big win over the retiring legend.

I'm not sure when this program with the legends will end, or if it will result in another title chase, but that doesn't necessarily mean Jericho isn't "up there" or that beating an Austin or Hogan would be a waste. It would validate his claims and keep him hot without having him get involved with any of the title scene, which keeps your options open on where to go with him. He's held the title, and while he wasn't the "best" champion it makes him viable enough that he can already compete at that level and be a believable threat to the title, as opposed to Kane who has held the ECW title and the WWE title for one night, but is never really to be taken seriously.

But if someone does go out earlier than expected (say Orton gets injured) Jericho could very easily fill in and take the title whenever, and it would be credible. I just don't think his character is headed in that direction right now.

[thedamndest]

Originally Posted by Hunter Heyman Hindu Because of this - I would much rather see a "top guy vs. top guy of the past" type match rather than see some glorified transitional champ defeat a legend, and still be in the same position afterwards.

My thought on this is that it would work, but not now, unfortunately. Cena still gets muddled reactions and I think that you need to have his character/the crowd's atmosphere figured out beforehand, Batista is over, but not Rock/Austin over, and Orton is just now hitting his stride - it's too early to put him in such a big match. If I had to pick the guy to go in the match it would be Orton a year from now on the path he's on now (though he will probably be getting face pops by then), or Cena in a revitalized heel role.

Note: I wouldn't mind face Cena v. face legend, but it wouldn't really be that. They would bill it as that, like Hogan v. Warrior, but when Cena came out he would get boo'ed out of the arena while his character acted face-y. That wouldn't play right.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by thedamndest Ideally they would have Jericho get this hypothetical big legend win at WM 25 and then keep pushing him and then give him that big win over the retiring legend. I'm not sure when this program with the legends will end, or if it will result in another title chase, but that doesn't necessarily mean Jericho isn't "up there" or that beating an Austin or Hogan would be a waste. It would validate his claims and keep him hot without having him get involved with any of the title scene, which keeps your options open on where to go with him. He's held the title, and while he wasn't the "best" champion it makes him viable enough that he can already compete at that level and be a believable threat to the title, as opposed to Kane who has held the ECW title and the WWE title for one night, but is never really to be taken seriously. But if someone does go out earlier than expected (say Orton gets injured) Jericho could very easily fill in and take the title whenever, and it would be credible. I just don't think his character is headed in that direction right now.

Good post.

When you spin it like that, I definitely agree with what you're saying.

I guess my thinking is also this: IF you're going to allow someone (i.e. Jericho) to beat a huge legend, then he should atleast have the potential to "rise to greater heights" with his character.

As it relates to Jericho, I just don't think he can get any 'bigger' or 'more over' than he is. The guy has had a long run as a face and a long run as a heel. Long story short - Jericho has plateau'd.

Cena, Batista, and Orton on the other hand, are a bit different. Cena and Batista can still 'take their current character to greater heights' (or revitalize their character) with a heel turn of sorts. Orton on the other hand, still has a lot of untapped potential with HIS new character.

The feeling I get from Jericho (or Edge for that matter) is that we're not going to ever see anything different than what we're seeing from them now.

I know this argument seems a bit unrelated (and I'm finding it a bit difficult to explain), but I think it ties in.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by thedamndest If Austin or Hogan just stand in the ring with Cena, Cena will get booed out of the arena. They need a definite heel to oppose either man, and as I said in a previous post, for all Cena's accomplishments, he isn't nearly legendary enough to be considered worthy of a "dream match" for either man, thus negating the possibilities of face v. face.

Of course Cena is going to get booed, but I still think the match would serve a purpose. Hogan, Austin or even The Rock are on a completely different level than Cena is. I think even Cena fans would side with the legends. But, that being said, Cena going over one of those three at WrestleMania would be HUGE for him. It also doesn't hurt anyone currently under contract.

I think one of the biggest problems with this era's talent is that the previous eras never really gave them confirmation. They sort of did with Brock Lesnar (although Triple H and Stone Cold apparently wouldn't play ball with him). Lesnar did get to destroy Hogan, though, as well as win his first WWE Title from The Rock.

The biggest rubs Cena has gotten are probably from Triple H and Shawn Michaels, who were just not on that same iconic level that the big draws have gotten to. Cena beating Hogan, Austin or Rock would really put him up there with those three men. Especially if he were allowed to cut edgier promos during his feud. If they then kept the World Title off Cena for the rest of the year, and then had Cena win the 2010 Royal Rumble, I think you could really freshen Cena up -- even as a face.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Hunter Heyman Hindu Good post. When you spin it like that, I definitely agree with what you're saying. I guess my thinking is also this: IF you're going to allow someone (i.e. Jericho) to beat a huge legend, then he should atleast have the potential to "rise to greater heights" with his character. As it relates to Jericho, I just don't think he can get any 'bigger' or 'more over' than he is. The guy has had a long run as a face and a long run as a heel. Long story short - Jericho has plateau'd. Cena, Batista, and Orton on the other hand, are a bit different. Cena and Batista can still 'take their current character to greater heights' (or revitalize their character) with a heel turn of sorts. Orton on the other hand, still has a lot of untapped potential with HIS new character. The feeling I get from Jericho (or Edge for that matter) is that we're not going to ever see anything different than what we're seeing from them now. I know this argument seems a bit unrelated (and I'm finding it a bit difficult to explain), but I think it ties in.

I disagree with you about Chris Jericho and Edge. If Jericho has hit a plateau, something like a big win over Hogan would really snap him out of that, and bring him back to the rise he was on late last year. It'd give him a legitimate claim to being "Superstar of the Year" again, and would basically keep Jericho afloat as a major player for all of 2009.

Personally, I feel that Jericho SHOULD win his match against whoever he faces at WrestleMania. The legacies of Stone Cold Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan are cemented. They are not going anywhere. While I'm sure the company will put them over, so the bad guy gets his comeuppance, I just don't think that is the wisest way to go. Jericho getting a clean win would allow him to say that he is better than either man now, and allow him to claim that he is just as good as either man ever was.

Jericho's heat would sky-rocket, because when he said that he is the best at what he does, fans would boo, partially because they fear that it's true. With there being a very great chance that John Cena will be World Heavyweight Champion after WrestleMania, he could really use a strong heel opponent. Jericho off an Austin/Hogan win would be perfect for that.

As for Edge, while he sometimes sleepwalks and is overshadowed but some of the other heels under contract, sometimes he really steps it up, and becomes the shining point of the company. He was so ready for a face turn after his Hell in a Cell Match with The Undertaker last year, if you ask me, and I'm sure Edge is just one kick-ass performance away from potentially giving Vickie Guerrero a Spear, and becoming the awesome face he once was.

If they do Edge vs. Cena, which I agree is boring, then I'd personally like to see a double-turn. More so than I would have with Cena vs. Orton. I don't know how they could do it, but Edge turning face and Cena turning heel at WMXXV could be a huge turning point for the company.

[NeanderCarl]

Amazes me that people would rather see Jericho (inevitably) lose to a middle aged actor than to Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin, the two biggest stars in the business.... which, by the way, is a WORK therefore it doesn't matter a fuck if Jericho wins or loses when you're talking about legends in the business, even if they are beat up and old. It won't harm Jericho one bit... whereas losing to Mickey Rourke would make him a mainstream joke.

[thedamndest]

Originally Posted by Noid The biggest rubs Cena has gotten are probably from Triple H and Shawn Michaels, who were just not on that same iconic level that the big draws have gotten to. Cena beating Hogan, Austin or Rock would really put him up there with those three men. Especially if he were allowed to cut edgier promos during his feud. If they then kept the World Title off Cena for the rest of the year, and then had Cena win the 2010 Royal Rumble, I think you could really freshen Cena up -- even as a face.

The problem with Cena isn't in his list of accomplishments. His problem is that his character got bland a couple years ago. He's done plenty in his tenure in the WWE, and for Cena to beat an aging legend, well, it wouldn't have the same effect as if Jericho did. Cena doesn't need that rub at this stage in his career, but Jericho could still use it. The time for Cena to get the rub from a legend would have been when he was first starting his run, which is sort of where Jericho is (a relative term, though a year into his heel run, this is a way to keep him hot and rub him).

The only thing a Cena match with a legend would do is illustrate how "controversial" Cena is, and MAYBE lead to a heel turn, but that would really be a waste of the legend's match because the heel turn could have been done anytime, and Cena isn't even involved with them now so it wouldn't even make sense.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by thedamndest The problem with Cena isn't in his list of accomplishments. His problem is that his character got bland a couple years ago. He's done plenty in his tenure in the WWE, and for Cena to beat an aging legend, well, it wouldn't have the same effect as if Jericho did. Cena doesn't need that rub at this stage in his career, but Jericho could still use it. The time for Cena to get the rub from a legend would have been when he was first starting his run, which is sort of where Jericho is (a relative term, though a year into his heel run, this is a way to keep him hot and rub him). The only thing a Cena match with a legend would do is illustrate how "controversial" Cena is, and MAYBE lead to a heel turn, but that would really be a waste of the legend's match because the heel turn could have been done anytime, and Cena isn't even involved with them now so it wouldn't even make sense.

I don't completely disagree. Sure, Cena's got the accomplishments down, but they are of this era, which is much weaker than those previous. Something with Stone Cold Steve Austin or Hulk Hogan would truly legitimise John Cena, and connect the era that he is leading to the WWE of previous years.

I mean, let's face it -- John Cena became the top guy because Brock Lesnar walked out on the company. It was forced, and it was silver medal stuff.

[Krimzon7]

Cena/Hogan would suck anyway. I know that this thread is about to take a completely different tangent, but Cena was tabbed the new top guy after Lesnar left. What other options did they have at the time? Was there any other option? who would you have gone with?

[NeanderCarl]

It's more a case of he became the new top guy after Benoit, Orton and Guerrero all flopped or struggled in the roles. He wasn't Lesnar's runner up at all. Cena didn't become WWE Champion until a year after Lesnar departed.