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Old 09-10-2008, 05:51 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Juan View Post
That would probably be because Triple H and Shawn Michaels are established stars.
So is Steve Austin but nobody would bitch half as much if it was him.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:57 AM   #82
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Because Steve Austin is an established SUPERTSTAR.
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Old 09-10-2008, 07:06 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Fucking idiot.

Your champion needs to look strong. Punk title run was a failure because he was booked weak. Same with Jericho's first run. I'd rather Jericho not even be in the match and put the belt on one of the others. Or have Michaels be the 5th guy and win the title. No champion in the history of wrestling, boxing or MMA (and it's all the same so don't argue it ain't) has drawn money as a weak champion. Not a single one.

Some people understand wrestling booking is used to MAKE MONEY. Some don't. You are obviously the latter.
It's your sunny attitude that makes you so desirable to converse with; you know that, right?

Also, had Punk been given more than JBL to beat on, I'm sure he could have looked plenty strong. And taking the title off of him, even in the ridiculous Scramble match, would have made him look stronger? Also, Jericho's match with HBM did make him look pretty tough. And his title win made him look like a fucking weasel. So, he's a resiliant, sneaky heel...and that's bad?


Don't get me wrong; I know Punk's title run has been less than stellar, to say the least. But I'd hardly call it a failure, because it gives him something to build on down the road. I'd definitely say it gave him a solid base to work with, and if that's considered failure, then I think we need to take a moment and define our terms.
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Old 09-10-2008, 07:15 AM   #84
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It drew no money. He wasn't main eventing shows. He wasn't taken seriously. You make the base before you put him on top. A top without a solid base crumbles no? Failure. Bottom line.

And you wanna look at your own attitude before you comment on mine.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:19 AM   #85
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My attitude toward you is apathetic at best. Nothing to worry about.

As for Punk's title run, I'd hardly say he wasn't taken seriously. Doing him differently, even as an experiment, does not make him a failure because, as I said, he now has the base upon which to build. I see parallels in his first run to Edge's, and Edge is now one of the top heels in the company. I understand your perspective, but I think the judgement call is a bit overzealous.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:33 AM   #86
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Still, no one has been able to explain how the champion losing is title because ORton beat him up before a match makes Punk look good, and why it was a logical choice at all. Also, if CM Punk lost a hard fought match, that would make him look stronger than getting beat up by a bunch of thugs and being defacto stripped of his title.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:58 AM   #87
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Hang on BDC, are you telling us you're not happy with jericho actually winning the title? Wow, i'm so shocked.

Your bitching about jericho is so boring now.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:04 AM   #88
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TL, out of all the possible people that could have gotten the title out of this mess, Jericho is one of the best choices...actually the only person that would have been better is HBK, but considering HBK is winding down and trying to retire, Jericho probably even a better choice than him.

I am pissed at the over all shitty booking, not Jericho being champion. He has been good lately.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:09 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afterlife View Post
My attitude toward you is apathetic at best. Nothing to worry about.

As for Punk's title run, I'd hardly say he wasn't taken seriously. Doing him differently, even as an experiment, does not make him a failure because, as I said, he now has the base upon which to build. I see parallels in his first run to Edge's, and Edge is now one of the top heels in the company. I understand your perspective, but I think the judgement call is a bit overzealous.
Worried? I don't think so. Edge's first run doesn't parallel this at all. He was the #1 heel and was being pushed as so against the top guy in the company. And he drew on top.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:12 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
TL, out of all the possible people that could have gotten the title out of this mess, Jericho is one of the best choices...actually the only person that would have been better is HBK, but considering HBK is winding down and trying to retire, Jericho probably even a better choice than him.

I am pissed at the over all shitty booking, not Jericho being champion. He has been good lately.
Ok fair enough, but i think this is good for cm punk. he now can feud with orton/his stable(assuming it forms) and then have a better run with the title next time.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:12 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Still, no one has been able to explain how the champion losing is title because ORton beat him up before a match makes Punk look good, and why it was a logical choice at all. Also, if CM Punk lost a hard fought match, that would make him look stronger than getting beat up by a bunch of thugs and being defacto stripped of his title.
I don't think anyone is saying the kick in the head made him "look good". They're saying that taking a 4 on 1 beat down was a good excuse to take him out of the match, and that losing his title would have been the bragging rights of JBL, wether he won or not, for calling Punk a fluke. If he had lost, cleanly or otherwise -- even though "cleanly" might be hard to define under the rules of said match -- then his title reign is capped off by the naysayers being right and any momentum he'd had would be DOA.

This way, he has a reason to gun for Orton -- a former champion himself -- and go over him. This will start to give him solid credibility without keeping him wrapped up in the title scene and drying him up on fan energy for the duration. It does make sense, when you really look at the big potential picture.

Am I saying it's a perfect situation? Absolutely not. But I definitely see the value in the process and the justification in rthe booking.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:13 AM   #92
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Because Steve Austin is an established SUPERTSTAR.
How does this make sense? It would be okay to bitch about Michaels or HHH not dropping the belt in the ring because they are established stars but it wouldn't be for Steve Austin because he is an established star?

Anyone that can help me out here please stick your answers on a postcard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
TL, out of all the possible people that could have gotten the title out of this mess, Jericho is one of the best choices...actually the only person that would have been better is HBK, but considering HBK is winding down and trying to retire, Jericho probably even a better choice than him.

I am pissed at the over all shitty booking, not Jericho being champion. He has been good lately.
This man gets it.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:17 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
1. Worried? I don't think so. 2. Edge's first run doesn't parallel this at all. He was the #1 heel and was being pushed as so against the top guy in the company. And he drew on top.
1. Useless alpha male post.

2. ...Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Edge's first run wasn't a brief stint won by the MitB contract? He wasn't put thru weak appearance booking against his opponents for the miniscule duration? He didn't lose it only to start a high potential feud, regain the title, and solidify his spot in the top tier? I coulda sworn that was his first run.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:23 AM   #94
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I think it is shitty booking. If you need to defend it this much, it is shitty booking.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:24 AM   #95
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Well, I"m only explaining my views in response to your claim that nobody had explained something. That's all.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:27 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afterlife View Post
1. Useless alpha male post.

2. ...Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Edge's first run wasn't a brief stint won by the MitB contract? He wasn't put thru weak appearance booking against his opponents for the miniscule duration? He didn't lose it only to start a high potential feud, regain the title, and solidify his spot in the top tier? I coulda sworn that was his first run.
1 - Get new material.

2 - Check the ratings and PPV buys when he was on top.

Maybe I'm the idiot here but I think the whole point of making a star is the make money with him immediately. Not hopefully months down the line. You build him BEFORE you put the belt on him. Only Bret Hart went from mid card to main event and stayed there because they booked him strong when he was on top. Everyone else who made money on top was booked to be a top star BEFORE they got the belt.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:30 AM   #97
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Also, saying you hate the IWC is stupid. I for one never hated CM Punk as a champion, I just wanted to see him get some solid wins and look like a decent champion, he never got to, then he was put in a match that it was almost certain he couldn't win or look strong in, and then before the match even starts he is beat up and lose his title in a match he was taken out of. That is fairly consistant. It isn't like I hated him winning it and now hated him losing it.
Last edited by BigDaddyCool; 09-10-2008 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:31 AM   #98
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If he was booked as a strong champion, we wouldn't be having this arguement.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:37 AM   #99
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Quote:
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1 - Get new material.

2 - Check the ratings and PPV buys when he was on top.

Maybe I'm the idiot here but I think the whole point of making a star is the make money with him immediately. Not hopefully months down the line. You build him BEFORE you put the belt on him. Only Bret Hart went from mid card to main event and stayed there because they booked him strong when he was on top. Everyone else who made money on top was booked to be a top star BEFORE they got the belt.
I don't care about ratings, hence I didn't mention them. And I'm not intending to call you an idiot, so you really can stop the hostility. Again, I'm not saying what they did was the perfect play. I'm simply saying it's not nearly the tragedy that some would suggest, and I've explained why. By your own comparisson, had they booked him stronger, he'd have been fine. But testing the waters with him as champ is not the end of the world because it's what gave him the base to have a powerful run as champion. His second run will have the potential to be long and strong because of this.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:40 AM   #100
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WWE does, and this is driving down ratings.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:07 AM   #101
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Quote:
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Yeah I saw it. Why would I be commenting on something I didn't see?

Jericho got a fluke title win after getting the living piss kicked out of him by Shawn Michaels. And it's bollocks saying it's taunting Michaels by telling him it didn't hurt. Him showing his bruises on Raw immediately reject that idea.

The majority of fans think it's shitty booking. If you think it isn't then good for you. Nobody should be throwing hissy fits over people having opinions over something like this. It's not like it's like the arguement about how it would be easier to forgive Chris Benoit for being a cold hearted killer than forgiving Hulk Hogan for the perception he is a jerk.
A lot of people around here comment on things they haven't seen. I'm almost convinced most of the people shitting on this haven't seen the PPV.

I meant hurt in a metaphorical sense. Jericho is obviously physically hurt, but he still had the gall to go out there and win the World Heavyweight Title, albeit in a sneaky way. If that doesn't eat up Shawn Michaels and cause him to come back and want a title match, then I'll agree this is shitty booking.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:11 AM   #102
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You don't need to see this to know it is shitty booking.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:13 AM   #103
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Quote:
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Fucking idiot.

Your champion needs to look strong. Punk title run was a failure because he was booked weak. Same with Jericho's first run. I'd rather Jericho not even be in the match and put the belt on one of the others. Or have Michaels be the 5th guy and win the title. No champion in the history of wrestling, boxing or MMA (and it's all the same so don't argue it ain't) has drawn money as a weak champion. Not a single one.

Some people understand wrestling booking is used to MAKE MONEY. Some don't. You are obviously the latter.
CM Punk didn't look strong during his reign, so the WWE took the belt off him in a way that allows him to come back and say that he was cheated. I think they are definitely jumping the gun with this Steel Cage Match stuff, and that Punk should take a month or so off, and cut some promos hyping his return and how much he hates Orton, and how much he wants to prove he is the true World Heavyweight Champion.

I do like strong champions, but I don't think Jericho is exactly looking weak right now. He beat CM Punk cleanly in non-title competition, and at The Great American Bash he has a match-stoppage victory over Shawn Michaels. Granted, the same thing happened to him at Unforgiven, but he proved he's a tough motherfucker by going out there with his wounds, being a smart guy, and pulling out the title win despite it all.

Besides, with heel champions, the money is in the chase. People pay to see a good heel champion get beat, and with CM Punk, Batista and Shawn Michaels all in line with shots, I'd say there are great legs on this.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:15 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
You don't need to see this to know it is shitty booking.
Yes, you really fucking do. People aren't grasping how sick the beat-down on CM Punk was, and assume he just took a few punches to the head and was out. He got killed with a kick that has killed legends. You also need to understand how the Scramble Match was also presented on the Jericho front, and you need to have seen HBK's promo to fully comprehend the implications of Jericho winning.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:29 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Still, no one has been able to explain how the champion losing is title because ORton beat him up before a match makes Punk look good, and why it was a logical choice at all. Also, if CM Punk lost a hard fought match, that would make him look stronger than getting beat up by a bunch of thugs and being defacto stripped of his title.
No, you have been told. You are just too stupid to take it in. Like in the Q&A forum when you asked about clean champions, got about five answers and said "no, that doesn't count."

It makes Punk look good for the following reasons:

1) He never got pinned, submitted, counted out, disqualified, knocked out or bled out to lose the World Heavyweight Title. He lost the title because he was screwed over by influences outside of professional wrestling competition.

2) Fans of CM Punk can maintain that Punk would have kept on surviving as champion if it wasn't for Orton. This intensifies their feud, and saves the comeback taunt of "well, Punk lost the match." He didn't lose the match.

3) If CM Punk had wrestled in a hard fought bout, and lost, he'd look like he has his entire title reign -- he'd look like an afterthought, and as someone that couldn't get it done. He'd be just another guy that won and lost the title. This way, Punk never lost the title.

This is a logical decision because:

1) It puts over Orton's eventual heel stable as a force to be feared. They can make or break the careers of individuals in the WWE. It positions them against a popular face character, and it creates a real interest in seeing them stopped, instead of them just being a bunch of young guys people don't like together.

2) Which feud, all preconceptions aside, should be fought over the World Heavyweight Championship: CM Punk vs. Randy Orton or Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels. If you said Punk vs. Orton, you're living in a fantasy world. Jericho and Michaels are two of the most entertaining performers not only in the world today, but arguably in professional wrestling ever. This decision allowed them to do the switcheroo with the feuds and their priority on RAW.

3) SmackDown! has Triple H as the WWE Champion, and although the plan was to make SmackDown! look stronger, with a new champion like CM Punk at the top, RAW has been looking less and less like the flagship. With the hottest program in the WWE being fought over its World Championship, the brand suddenly regains a lot of its glory and prestige.

4) This creates a long build for CM Punk to eventually regain his World Heavyweight Championship, which will hopefully lead to an epic pay-off that could make the WWE some cash. His flash title win gained interest, but now they get to milk the slow burn.

5) Putting the World Heavyweight Championship on Chris Jericho, a performer who has successfully re-invented himself, and been doing some fantastic work for the company, can help boost morale because it shows the WWE rewards good performances. Giving The Brian Kendrick his due is a similar ideal. It's almost like how WCW used to give bonuses each week to the guys who had the best match.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:33 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
WWE does, and this is driving down ratings.
Have the ratings even come out yet?

I agree that Punk should have been booked stronger as a champion, but the fact is he wasn't. If he had lost the World Title in a conventional sense, it would have helped no one. Like Afterlife, I'm not saying this is the best thing ever, but it's certainly not "shitty."

+CM Punk will get more over as a face for this. He can then re-chase the title with BUILD behind him.

+Chris Jericho is the World Heavyweight Champion.

I mean, who really gets hurt in this scenario? The biggest bitch in all of this is really Kane, who got pinned twice after a single Spinebuster from Batista.
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:13 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Yes, you really fucking do. People aren't grasping how sick the beat-down on CM Punk was, and assume he just took a few punches to the head and was out. He got killed with a kick that has killed legends. You also need to understand how the Scramble Match was also presented on the Jericho front, and you need to have seen HBK's promo to fully comprehend the implications of Jericho winning.
The match itself is a horrible idea. All the champions had plenty of singles matches to go through with out a retarded cluster fuck. Then to take one of the champions in the match out at the last second (brutal beating or not) makes a retarded idea worse.

On top of that, who do they replace a beaten up Punk with? A beaten up Jericho. They way there were billing the grudge match between Jericho and HBK, is that niether were going to come out unscathed and be beaten up so bad that neither would probably get out. So what do they do, they take the loser of the match and put him in another match. On paper, this is shitty booking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
No, you have been told. You are just too stupid to take it in. Like in the Q&A forum when you asked about clean champions, got about five answers and said "no, that doesn't count."

It makes Punk look good for the following reasons:

1) He never got pinned, submitted, counted out, disqualified, knocked out or bled out to lose the World Heavyweight Title. He lost the title because he was screwed over by influences outside of professional wrestling competition.

2) Fans of CM Punk can maintain that Punk would have kept on surviving as champion if it wasn't for Orton. This intensifies their feud, and saves the comeback taunt of "well, Punk lost the match." He didn't lose the match.

3) If CM Punk had wrestled in a hard fought bout, and lost, he'd look like he has his entire title reign -- he'd look like an afterthought, and as someone that couldn't get it done. He'd be just another guy that won and lost the title. This way, Punk never lost the title.

This is a logical decision because:

1) It puts over Orton's eventual heel stable as a force to be feared. They can make or break the careers of individuals in the WWE. It positions them against a popular face character, and it creates a real interest in seeing them stopped, instead of them just being a bunch of young guys people don't like together.

2) Which feud, all preconceptions aside, should be fought over the World Heavyweight Championship: CM Punk vs. Randy Orton or Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels. If you said Punk vs. Orton, you're living in a fantasy world. Jericho and Michaels are two of the most entertaining performers not only in the world today, but arguably in professional wrestling ever. This decision allowed them to do the switcheroo with the feuds and their priority on RAW.

3) SmackDown! has Triple H as the WWE Champion, and although the plan was to make SmackDown! look stronger, with a new champion like CM Punk at the top, RAW has been looking less and less like the flagship. With the hottest program in the WWE being fought over its World Championship, the brand suddenly regains a lot of its glory and prestige.

4) This creates a long build for CM Punk to eventually regain his World Heavyweight Championship, which will hopefully lead to an epic pay-off that could make the WWE some cash. His flash title win gained interest, but now they get to milk the slow burn.

5) Putting the World Heavyweight Championship on Chris Jericho, a performer who has successfully re-invented himself, and been doing some fantastic work for the company, can help boost morale because it shows the WWE rewards good performances. Giving The Brian Kendrick his due is a similar ideal. It's almost like how WCW used to give bonuses each week to the guys who had the best match.
1. For the last time, losing is nessicary. Having a title taken off you without losing is crappier than losing it in a hard fought match. Plus it is just lazy booking

2. HBK v Jericho doesn't need the title to look good. Orton v Punk by itself lacks sizzle without title in it.

3. That is retarded. This shitty angle doesn't fix the fact that the were poorly booking CM Punk.

4. What happens when they don't do this? CM Punk will be the fluke JBL always said he was, that is what.

5. Jericho does deserve to be champion, but not this way. This kind of booking completely devalues an already weak championship title.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:18 PM   #108
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I don't care about ratings, hence I didn't mention them.
]

They do care about ratings. That's the whole point. If it was just for entertainment for a few people, put the belt on Rory McAllister or something. I'd get a kick out of it. Not many others would but it doesn't matter.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:03 PM   #109
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How does this make sense? It would be okay to bitch about Michaels or HHH not dropping the belt in the ring because they are established stars but it wouldn't be for Steve Austin because he is an established star?

Anyone that can help me out here please stick your answers on a postcard.
Ok you got me on that one. One more notch for your "wrestling fans are stupid" belt.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:06 PM   #110
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Nah it's ok to be wrong. Just stupid to refuse to believe a fact.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:18 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afterlife View Post
[COLOR=darkorchid]
2. ...Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Edge's first run wasn't a brief stint won by the MitB contract? He wasn't put thru weak appearance booking against his opponents for the miniscule duration? He didn't lose it only to start a high potential feud, regain the title, and solidify his spot in the top tier? I coulda sworn that was his first run.
Yes, but the difference is, Edge had been through various high level feuds and had numerous title shots already. If I recall correctly, he even had a title shot at a PPV as well as having the MITB. He then even had the returning Matt Hardy storyline, even with the MITB being put on the line in a match.

Punk had none of that on his resume. Feuding (and losing regularly to) Chavo Guerrero & John Morrison is not even in the same league.

They blew their load on Punk way way too soon. I would have liked to see this 'undeserving' thing being based around the MITB contract rather than the title. The joke was, he was still losing matches but not looking particularly bad not long after Mania. They started having him stalking the champions at the PPV's - that worked.

Then he won the title, they wrote him exactly as the others described - a lucky, transition champion who would lose it at the first oppotunity. He should have beaten Batista, clean or not - that would have worked. Much like when Jericho first beat Rock with a steel chair to win the 'big one'.

This upcoming feud with Orton could be great, as long as Punk drops the smiley jumping around thing and gets vindictive.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:30 PM   #112
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I realize they are not the same formula. My point was simply that there were similarities being denied.
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