IGN: Top 10 Moves to Put 360 Back on Top

[darkpower]

This interested me, and they do bring up some really good points about what MS is not doing that others are really beginning to capitalize on.

From http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/907/907573p1.html :

Top 10 Moves to Put 360 Back on Top Sales have been slumping for months. We offer up some ways to change that. by IGN Xbox 360 Team September 3, 2008 - Microsoft came out of the gate swinging, the first console manufacturer to release a HD capable gaming system. With a year on the market all by itself, the Xbox 360 built a massive lead while Microsoft touted all sorts of statistics about record console sales and attach rates. Then the Wii came out and made the Xbox 360 its sales bitch. Now the PS3, decried by many as bloated and overpriced, has begun to outsell it as well. What's a Microsoft exec to do? After today's announcement of a price drop in the US, we're here to offer up some more suggestions. 10: Price Drop (Done…sort of) Today, Microsoft announced that it would be dropping the price of all three versions of the Xbox 360 console. The Arcade unit now clocks in at a svelte $199 in the US, cheaper than the rival Wii. The Elite, however, stands at $399. While having a console cheaper than the Wii is certainly attractive to soccer moms and those looking for a cheaper holiday present, gamers know that the Arcade unit doesn't come with a hard drive. In other words, if you want to take advantage of what the Xbox 360 has to offer through Xbox Live, you'll need to buy one of the more expensive models. Unless the cost of gas magically drops before this holiday season, those Xbox 360s with hard drives are still going to look mighty expensive to consumers. 9: Accessory Price Drop Have you ever tried to go buy a wireless network adaptor or a new hard drive for your Xbox 360? It's highway robbery. You can expect to pay $100 for a wireless adapter or $150 for a 120 GB hard drive if you buy an Arcade unit and want to upgrade your system a bit. Sure, these prices will only piss off every single person that buys an Xbox 360…who in turn will complain to their friends. Microsoft can't seriously expect people to get excited about gaming when a hard drive costs almost as much as two new games. Or maybe they do. That needs to change. This thing is expensive! 8: Adopt Blu-ray The HD-DVD drive was a nice thought straight up until Blu-ray swept it off the market. Now the PlayStation 3 is sitting by itself as the only console that can play HD movies. You can rent them through Xbox Live to download, but these compressed versions pale in comparison to what Blu-ray can do. With the PS3 and Xbox 360 offering up largely the same third-party line-ups these days, Blu-ray can easily be the deciding factor between the two. Push a Blu-ray add-on out the door and add another checkmark to your marketing list. 7: Redesign the 360 This one may simply combine the previous few entries on this list, but bear with us. The value of the Xbox 360 Elite is simply not there. It now costs twice as much as the Xbox 360 Arcade, but only offers HDMI, a wireless controller and a 120 GB hard drive to justify that price increase. It's time to make the Elite truly worthy of its name. Add a built-in wireless network adapter. Add a Blu-ray player. Add a slot loading disc drive. Make the console smaller. Give people a reason to pay more money. 6: Play Up Netflix The Netflix announcement was one of the biggest of E3. If you haven't heard, you're going to be able to stream Netflix movies through your Xbox 360 to your living room television after a system update this fall. Microsoft made a brilliant move here, but there's room for them to capitalize on it. Get the Netflix service running ASAP and give people a free trial month when they sign up for Xbox Live gold. Then advertise the heck out of this deal. No late fees and no mailing back DVDs with Xbox Live. 5: Give Us a Casual Friendly Controller No, the Big Button Pad doesn't count. Dual analog controllers are a great all-purpose solution, but those who haven't grown up gaming often have trouble wrapping their heads around it. Go ahead and ask your aunt to play Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved. It may be funny to you watching them die in just a few seconds before you display your superiority, but that's as simple as games get and new players often struggle with it. A motion controller might not be the solution, or it might be. Either way something basic for people to get into simple Arcade games will help Microsoft expand its user base in ways that Viva Piñata, as good as it may be, or avatars could never hope to. 4: Revamp the Marketing Have you seen a commercial for Xbox 360 lately? We've seen plenty where Microsoft has tried to make you associate popular games like Rock Band or Guitar Hero with the console by flashing a 360 logo on the end of an advertisement they've subsidized, but it's been a while since we've seen any that Microsoft has put together itself. The last time any of us saw something advertising Xbox 360 itself was at a San Jose Earthquakes MLS game. Not exactly high profile. Nintendo ads are everywhere. Sony ads are shoved into every nook Nintendo leaves open. Word of mouth is not enough. 3: Free Pack-in Game Everybody loves free stuff. They also love playing their consoles as soon as they get them. A free pack-in promotion for the holidays will rally both parents looking for a gift and the more common gamer. Toss in Halo 3 for free and you've got yourself a promotion that might even grab some media attention just as the peak buying season begins. Or, if MS is looking to attract those non-Halo gamers, a Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts pack-in would do just fine. Microsoft has already shown that it is willing to sacrifice some money to attract consumers with that one. 2: Make Xbox Live Free Xbox Live is Microsoft's ace in the hole, but for how long? The PlayStation Network has been gaining speed with trophies and a more stable --and free -- online playing field. Games for Windows Live went free after Microsoft recognized that it couldn't attract PC gamers with fees for playing online. Well, guess what? You can't attract non-hardcore gamers on Xbox 360 by asking them to pay to play online. Make what constitutes Xbox Live Gold free and add some new bonuses to those that are willing to pay. Things like Netflix, free XNA games, or early access to betas would be nice bonuses to paying members, but playing online needs to be free. Competition is making this look more and more expensive. 1: More Halos It's time to take a hint from Nintendo. Though only one true Mario game comes out every few years, games with Mario in them are in no short supply. It's the mascot that defines what Nintendo is and pervades everything the system does. Halo has been an undeniable success for Microsoft. Why not capitalize on it? Halo Wars is a good start, but why haven't we ever seen anything on Peter Jackson's Halo project? Why are the rumors of the next Halo first-person shooter pointing at it coming with the next Xbox console? Diversifying your library is nice, but Master Chief has already penetrated the mass market. Build on what works rather than trying to lay a new foundation.

[Kane Knight]

I love the notion that with a six million sales lead over the PS3, the largest online community of a console, and the highest attach rate, Microsoft needs to get "back on top."

[Savio]

Wii is on top baby

7) Add a built-in wireless network adapter. Add a Blu-ray player. Add a slot loading disc drive. Make the console smaller.

all of those would make it more expensive

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Savior Wii is on top baby all of those would make it more expensive

When people only buy a couple games for it, no it isn't.

Anyway, yeah. they want a price break, but they want more expensive features thrown in. and pack-in titles.

Unfortunately, Microsoft wants to push their proprietary movie service over HD disc media. I don't like this, because the quality suffers and your usage is limited, but I don't think it's gonna change. I don't think we would have seen the HD DVD player on the market either if Microsoft had their system in full swing at that point. So BD is out. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, either. The PS3 has better upscaling of DVD, and I'm not worried about RRoD from using it.

I'm not sure why slot loading is a really needed change.

Wireless sucks. I could see the argument for lowering the cost of the wireless adapter (Though anyone stupid enough to buy it instead of the cheaper legit alternatives deserves to get hosed), but building in wireless is ridiculous and serves only a small portion of the userbase, which makes everyone foot the bill for the few. No.

One of the main points that I'd make, also, is that peripherals and live online do not seem to be a significant sales deterrent.

[Bad Company]

It needs more grunt, and that's really not possible. It also needs a 500gb+ hard drive.

[Kane Knight]

1 Terrabyte HDD

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight I love the notion that with a six million sales lead over the PS3, the largest online community of a console, and the highest attach rate, Microsoft needs to get "back on top."

Most are right now looking at month to month figures rather than pure install base since the 360 had that year head start (at least that's the reason I can think of), and thus the install base issue is kind of invalid in that respect (don't ask why). So far, the PS3 has beaten the 360 on every month this year besides 1, and that was only a 900 unit difference. July gave the PS3 the biggest margin of victory in the month to month figures so far, and this is with Sony's heavy hitters still to come in LBP, the Bioshock port that is getting more attention than any other port I can remember, and Resistence 2, to name a few.

If Sony keeps winning the month to month battle with MS with their PS3 over the 360 by bigger and bigger margins, then yeah, I could see a reason to really worry. Plus, the rumors that Microsoft might be announcing a new system next year (what some are calling the 720) are probably making some in the know gamers worry even more about purchasing a 360 right now. They have relaxed their attacks on the other console (sans E3), and they really have done nothing to counter the momentum Sony is getting right now, coupled with few heavy hitters compared to how many Sony will have (they only have GOW2 as THE IP for them right now with Fable 2 going to a niche audience and the GTA4 DLC all but forgotten about with all those delays).

Not saying you're wrong in believing that, but I can see where right now Microsoft may need to start doing something before they see their install base lead slip away (yeah, it might take awhile if Sony keeps winning the M2M with the same margins, but the more they would widen that gap, the faster they achieve that goal).

[MCEazy]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight When people only buy a couple games for it, no it isn't.

Far as I know, Wii and DS are regularly in the top ten monthly software lists for japan, australia, europe and north america.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Bad Company It needs more grunt, and that's really not possible. It also needs a 500gb+ hard drive.

So you read that gamepro.com article, too, did you?

I want to do that, too, when I get the money to buy that HD for it.

[U-Warrior]

I just want to know what the hell nintendo was thinking, not using a hard drive for storage like ps3 and xbox. Knowing that they were going to have entire libraries of full games available for download.

That really doesn't have anything to do with this, but I don't care.

[Bad Company]

darkpower, don't read many online gaming pages. But I know what it needs.

MS really has to swallow their pride and go Blu-Ray, people don't want to be juggling DVDs when they play games. Never mind the fact that people aren't always in a position to download their online content, e.g. Here in NZ where we pay out the arse for capped broadband.

MS also needs a new racing title.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Bad Company darkpower, don't read many online gaming pages. But I know what it needs. MS really has to swallow their pride and go Blu-Ray, people don't want to be juggling DVDs when they play games. Never mind the fact that people aren't always in a position to download their online content, e.g. Here in NZ where we pay out the arse for capped broadband. MS also needs a new racing title.

Since I take from that that you haven't read it yet, enjoy from http://www.gamepro.com/article/featu...arge-your-ps3/ :

500GB Blowout: How to SUPERCHARGE Your PS3! By Chris Morell August 29, 2008 12:47 PM PST Print Email this! Share Digg Yahoo Buzz! FaceBook StumbleUpon del.icio.us Buzz up! Exclusive: There's only one way to unlock 500GB of storage on your PlayStation 3 -- using the new Samsung Spinpoint M6. Here's how to install it in five easy steps. Here we go: official proof that the PS3 can handle a 500GB drive! Is that measly 40GB hard drive keeping you from downloading all your favorite movies and games from the PlayStation Store? Here are five easy to follow steps to supercharge your PS3 to a whopping 500 gigs for all your downloading pleasures. Watch the video walkthrough to see how it's done. Step #1: Purchase the Samsung M6 500GB hard drive (widely available online for around $230). Important note: The M6 is the only 500GB internal hard drive that will fit into the PS3. Use the PS3's Backup function to transfer saves and other content to a USB drive. Step #2: Unplug the PS3 and ground yourself. Open the PS3's hard drive access port, located on the side of the unit, with your fingernail. Step #3: Carefully unscrew the blue screw using the correct screwdriver bit (Philips Precise) using gentle pressure, taking care not to strip the screw. Pull out the metal hinge, and slide the hard drive tray out. Step #4: Unscrew the four screws that attach the hard drive to the metal tray, and remove the old hard drive (place old drive in anti-static bag). Step #5: Attach the new Samsung 500GB hard drive to the tray, replacing the four screws from the previous step. Slide the hard drive tray back into the PS3 port, and snap the metal hinge back into place, then replace the blue screw. Close the access port, power up your PS3, and replace the date stored on your USB drive. Voila -- you're done! Enjoy your massive storage space.

This doesn't void warranty, either (the PS3 instruction booklet shows you how to replace the HD, as well).

[MCEazy]

Originally Posted by U-Warrior I just want to know what the hell nintendo was thinking, not using a hard drive for storage like ps3 and xbox. Knowing that they were going to have entire libraries of full games available for download. That really doesn't have anything to do with this, but I don't care.

As of this years E3 apparently its something their trying to find a solution to this, should've put a fucken hard drive in, in the first place.

[Vietnamese Crippler]

Originally Posted by darkpower Since I take from that that you haven't read it yet, enjoy from http://www.gamepro.com/article/featu...arge-your-ps3/ : This doesn't void warranty, either (the PS3 instruction booklet shows you how to replace the HD, as well).

You do realize BC was referring adding 500GB to the 360, right? Otherwise, what was the point of that post from gamepro.com?

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by darkpower Most are right now looking at month to month figures rather than pure install base since the 360 had that year head start

Except, as we've already established before, month to month sales won't catch them up any time in the life span of the 360.

(at least that's the reason I can think of)

I can think of a few.

and thus the install base issue is kind of invalid in that respect (don't ask why).

That's nice. Live revenues, attach rates, and so on are still factors, even if you consider the most damning argument off limits.

So far, the PS3 has beaten the 360 on every month this year besides 1, and that was only a 900 unit difference.

And is yet to dent the major disparity.

July gave the PS3 the biggest margin of victory in the month to month figures so far, and this is with Sony's heavy hitters still to come in LBP, the Bioshock port that is getting more attention than any other port I can remember, and Resistence 2, to name a few.

The problem with heavy hitters being, everyone has them. Nintendo and Microsoft have them too, which will shift things as well.

If Sony keeps winning the month to month battle with MS with their PS3 over the 360 by bigger and bigger margins, then yeah, I could see a reason to really worry.

Except the margins aren't constant. A large margin in the most recent month tracked doesn't mean an upward pattern. So yeah. If they keep increasing the margin....But that's a presumption that goes beyond the current evidence. Even assuming current rate of growth doesn't change, price cuts don't impact sales, etc., we're looking at a long time before this is an issue.

It's kind of like compund interest. Sure, eventually fifty bucks will become a million, but....

Plus, the rumors that Microsoft might be announcing a new system next year (what some are calling the 720) are probably making some in the know gamers worry even more about purchasing a 360 right now.

The rumours that have been going around since the 360 came out? Fuck, you just said "some people" are calling it what it's been called since roughly the launch of the 360.

Such rumours didn't hurt sales of the PS2. The PS3 and 360 didn't really hurt sales of the PS2. Yet, for some reason, logic dictates it will have an impact here? Nah. These are hypotheticals thrown out to demonstrate an extreme scenario in which there might be an issue.

People are already talking rumours of a PS4. That doesn't seem to factor into your logic. Nor is the fact that the potential for a RRoD proof console (Newer versions of the 360) didn't slow down sales.

They have relaxed their attacks on the other console (sans E3), and they really have done nothing to counter the momentum Sony is getting right now, coupled with few heavy hitters compared to how many Sony will have (they only have GOW2 as THE IP for them right now with Fable 2 going to a niche audience and the GTA4 DLC all but forgotten about with all those delays).

That was rather slanted.

Not saying you're wrong in believing that, but I can see where right now Microsoft may need to start doing something before they see their install base lead slip away (yeah, it might take awhile if Sony keeps winning the M2M with the same margins, but the more they would widen that gap, the faster they achieve that goal).

Assuming they can consistantly widen the gap, yet to be demonstrated. Also assuming the fall lineup of games, price cuts and Holiday season all have no impact.

The problem is, you're assuming a lot, and ignoring a lot.

[Savio]

Originally Posted by U-Warrior I just want to know what the hell nintendo was thinking, not using a hard drive for storage like ps3 and xbox. Knowing that they were going to have entire libraries of full games available for download. That really doesn't have anything to do with this, but I don't care.

I think they wanted to keep it cheap

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by MCEazy Far as I know, Wii and DS are regularly in the top ten monthly software lists for japan, australia, europe and north america.

Okay, first point: The DS has nothing to do with anything here. The DS is not the Wii. It's not in the same market (handhelds v consoles), and its presence on the charts doesn't mean much in terms of console game sales.

Point the second: Individual titles sell well. That doesn't really mean much. In fact, with software attach rates being what they are, it just reaffirms that Nintendo owners are buying only a couple of major titles, and nothing more. Hell, they're factoring in pack-in titles to pad Wii's attach rate.

High console sales are good. Strong console sales and a strong attach rate are better.

Originally Posted by Bad Company darkpower, don't read many online gaming pages. But I know what it needs. MS really has to swallow their pride and go Blu-Ray, people don't want to be juggling DVDs when they play games. Never mind the fact that people aren't always in a position to download their online content, e.g. Here in NZ where we pay out the arse for capped broadband. MS also needs a new racing title.

BD isn't needed. Programmers are lazy.

Next gen, MS will likely include a BD player.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Savior I think they wanted to keep it cheap

You know what? All they have to do is to release the update that will unlock external HDD support (Which was planned and intended), and BOOM! Cheap for them.

[Savio]

you should probably bring that up with them.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Savior you should probably bring that up with them.

They weren't the ones who brought up the point of keeping things cheap. I brought it up here specifically because of your statement. Just pointing out the support they were claiming that would have made things reasonable for everyone.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight Except, as we've already established before, month to month sales won't catch them up any time in the life span of the 360.

Like you usually do, you make an answer into a question. I've already answered this point. You just didn't like the answer you got so you repeated the question as you not accepting such an answer for your failed reasons.

I can think of a few.

And I'm sure I already addressed them elsewhere.

That's nice. Live revenues, attach rates, and so on are still factors, even if you consider the most damning argument off limits.

And is yet to dent the major disparity.

Well, they're doing SOMETHING right or they wouldn't be selling boxes. And the dropping of the 360 price tag is showing a bit of desperation on MS. Why?

And remember, they had a one year head start (which I already mentioned yet you completely ignored), and MS probably isn't going to be able to charge for XBL for long.

Trust me, this M2M sales thing isn't hurting Sony any, and the M2M difference is continuing to get larger.

The problem with heavy hitters being, everyone has them. Nintendo and Microsoft have them too, which will shift things as well.

But there is a such thing to consider as how MANY heavy hitters you have. I mentioned that MS only has one main IP that everyone is waiting for, Gears of War 2) while Sony has at least 3 (maybe 4 or 5 depending on if you count Killzone 2 as one and Home as another) coming out this year or very early next year. I can't think of anything Nintendo is coming out with other than Wii Music (and we all know what reception they recieved from that). We've established that Sony has the strongest overall lineup of games for 2008, there was a reason we brought that into the conversation.

Except the margins aren't constant. A large margin in the most recent month tracked doesn't mean an upward pattern. So yeah. If they keep increasing the margin....But that's a presumption that goes beyond the current evidence. Even assuming current rate of growth doesn't change, price cuts don't impact sales, etc., we're looking at a long time before this is an issue.

Well, you go to MS and tell THEM that they didn't need the price cut they implimented, since you probably know more than they do. And then try to tell anyone else outside of your own little world that Sony didn't find their feet and got on the ball just suddenly. You'll see that you'll be outnumbered.

It's kind of like compund interest. Sure, eventually fifty bucks will become a million, but....

So...you're saying it's not possible that anyone can do that quickly? I'm not getting how you came to the conclusion that no one can just suddenly get a spike of revenue or a spike in sales and then keep it going. Obviously you're also predicting that everything will be right in the world again in August! Don't let me stop you from dreaming what you want. Just be advised that you're welcome to come back to reality whenever you're ready to join us.

The rumours that have been going around since the 360 came out? Fuck, you just said "some people" are calling it what it's been called since roughly the launch of the 360.

And you'd think they would be dead by now, right? The same rumors that have been echoed by pretty much every other gaming blog site lately?

Such rumours didn't hurt sales of the PS2. The PS3 and 360 didn't really hurt sales of the PS2. Yet, for some reason, logic dictates it will have an impact here? Nah. These are hypotheticals thrown out to demonstrate an extreme scenario in which there might be an issue.

So...Microsoft's sudden ignorance of the original XBox's existence when they introduced the 360 never happened? They remember how MS treated that situation.

People are already talking rumours of a PS4. That doesn't seem to factor into your logic. Nor is the fact that the potential for a RRoD proof console (Newer versions of the 360) didn't slow down sales.

It didn't factor into my logic because of the 10-year life cycle claim that came from Sony....or did you forget that?

That was rather slanted.

That was not a valid counterpoint to anything I said that made you want to respond that way.

Assuming they can consistantly widen the gap, yet to be demonstrated. Also assuming the fall lineup of games, price cuts and Holiday season all have no impact.

You're also assuming Sony won't answer the price cut or that no one will be interested in LBP or Resistence 2 (or, for that matter, a free online service or the Home service). And, as I mentioned up above, what other major IP do you see being a system seller for the 360. Remember that LBP is going to come out just before the holiday shopping season begins. The game will be fresh in the minds of many.

The problem is, you're assuming a lot, and ignoring a lot.

Pot, meet kettle.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight BD isn't needed. Programmers are lazy. Next gen, MS will likely include a BD player.

Umm...that was a redundant statement.

So you're saying that them wanting to use as much of 50GBs as possible is lazy? I don't get your logic of how developing on Blu Ray constitutes as being lazy, or the logic in developing for a more powerful console or making that console the lead platform of development is being lazy. You're basically saying that anyone that wants to develop for the PS3 is lazy? Talk about making a pure fanboy comment.

I would say lazy is actually porting a game to another system without using the system's specs to their advantage (Orange Box, anyone?).

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Vietnamese Crippler You do realize BC was referring adding 500GB to the 360, right? Otherwise, what was the point of that post from gamepro.com?

Actually, I didn't consider that. I had considered he read that because the article was the first time someone confirmed that 500GBs were possible on a system.

The article, though, is a good read nonetheless, and I posted it here because I know some people may not click the link because they don't want to destroy their own ignorance (look above).

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight When people only buy a couple games for it, no it isn't.

Not really, although it's not at 360 levels (which is at a ridiculous level right now) it's still got a bigger attach rate than Sony. NPD software tie figures from launch of each console up until April:

* Xbox 360: software sales ratio: 7.5
* Wii: software sales ratio: 5.3
* PS3: software sales ratio: 4.6

Originally Posted by darkpower Actually, I didn't consider that. I had considered he read that because the article was the first time someone confirmed that 500GBs were possible on a system. The article, though, is a good read nonetheless, and I posted it here because I know some people may not click the link because they don't want to destroy their own ignorance (look above).

Speaking of ignorance, you didn't see BC's post directly before you posted yours mentioning MS about 3 times? And that's disregarding the fact it's in a thread about 360 and that "it" surely refers to the 360 in the context of the thread?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're either ignorant or stupid.

[Requiem]

I agree with all of that except 'More Halos'. The franchise has already been played out.. they're already doing an RTS - Halo Wars. And the shooter itself has pretty much reached its high point. (In my opinion it reached a high point with Halo 1, and the redesign of the game in 2 and 3 just didn't quite cut it)

What they need, is a Final Fantasy (no, not the actual game). They need a franchise that can define the 360 for years to come, not to mention xbox as a whole. Something they could use to carry this system, and their next. As it is, I can't think of a specific title that really 'screams' xbox, like Final Fantasy did for Sony. (For the record, I hate Final Fantasy.. just making a comparison)

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Hasney Speaking of ignorance, you didn't see BC's post directly before you posted yours mentioning MS about 3 times? And that's disregarding the fact it's in a thread about 360 and that "it" surely refers to the 360 in the context of the thread? I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're either ignorant or stupid.

1. He said he didn't read online gaming sites, so I took that as saying that he didn't read what I did.
2. My thinking was that his comment about MS needing a 500GB hard drive was invoked by the article I had posted about the PS3 being able to support 500GBs (and of course, making it necessary for MS to respond some how).

I didn't not read it. You just failed to grasp my reasoning behind saying what I did.

But don't let that get in the way of finding a reason to attack me personally, even when I agreed with your points in the LBP quote thread (even though I had counterpoints for those, you did make good points).

Seriously, do you people ever just disagree without using the rep button as a weapon or attacking character instead of just the points?

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by darkpower Like you usually do, you make an answer into a question.

I didn't. I made a statement of rebuttal.

I've already answered this point. You just didn't like the answer you got so you repeated the question as you not accepting such an answer for your failed reasons.

I'm not the one who tried to change the topic when it was brought up. I'm not repeating a question, because it's not a question. I'm not repeating it because I didn't like the answer. I'm repeating it because it's still valid.

And I'm sure I already addressed them elsewhere.

Replace "addressed" as "dismissed with bias" and you're probably correct.

And the dropping of the 360 price tag is showing a bit of desperation on MS. Why?

Wait...This, a move done by most manufacturers with almost all systems, is a move of desperation? Sweet.

And remember, they had a one year head start (which I already mentioned yet you completely ignored), and MS probably isn't going to be able to charge for XBL for long.

I will answer you the same way I would a "truther."

I "ignored" the statement in the same way I "ignore" the possibilities that a Vogon Contructor Fleet might have used the WTC as a test for their demolition of Earth to make way for a new Hyperspace bypass.

I should probably ignore the unfounded speculation that Microsoft "probably" won't be able to keep charging for long. However, if it'll stop you from bitching, that is unfounded spexulation.

But there is a such thing to consider as how MANY heavy hitters you have.

Right. And if you discount the apps one group has and stack the other....

I mentioned that MS only has one main IP that everyone is waiting for, Gears of War 2) while Sony has at least 3 (maybe 4 or 5 depending on if you count Killzone 2 as one and Home as another) coming out this year or very early next year.

For example.

I can't think of anything Nintendo is coming out with other than Wii Music (and we all know what reception they recieved from that). We've established that Sony has the strongest overall lineup of games for 2008, there was a reason we brought that into the conversation.

Wow. You're extending this to Nintendo not having anything else? Well, that certainly doesn't hurt your argument.

By the way, since Hasney mentioned the Attach Rates, NPD included TWO Pack-In titles for the Wii when factoring those numbers, dropping the actual numbers from 5.x to 3.x. Oh look. The numbers aren't that good when we dishonestly stack our deck. Nintendo also tries to throw in WiiWare into their RETAIL numbers.

Well, you go to MS and tell THEM that they didn't need the price cut they implimented, since you probably know more than they do.

Speaking of desperation...Now you're trying to make stuff up to make me look like I'm wrong.

But since you opened that door, isn't that the exact sort of attitude you're taking when you argue that Microsoft probably can't continue to charge for live? Are you going to presume to tell them whether or not they can charge for Live?

No, you're not presuming to tell them that, nor am I presuming to tell them the price cuts are unnecessary. That isn't the point. Please don't make up arguments. If you don't understand, ask for clarifcation, rather than fabricating.

So...you're saying it's not possible that anyone can do that quickly?

No, but we are talking the long game here.

Obviously you're also predicting that everything will be right in the world again in August!

Yes. That's exactly what I'm predicting. Oh, wait....

Don't let me stop you from dreaming what you want.

Says the guy who's talking about speculation against evidence....

Just be advised that you're welcome to come back to reality whenever you're ready to join us.

The reality you've fabricated in which analogous spikes immediately translate into a diamond future?

k.

And you'd think they would be dead by now, right? The same rumors that have been echoed by pretty much every other gaming blog site lately?

I don't suppose you realise how stupid that sounds...Nah. Be too easy.

An unfounded rumour continuing suddenly validates it?

So...Microsoft's sudden ignorance of the original XBox's existence when they introduced the 360 never happened? They remember how MS treated that situation.

Didn't say that.

I love how "they remember." It's vague, it's pointless, it's not born out by a loss of sales in 2007, when it was also being covered by all the blog sites.

AKA: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull another rabbit out of my hat!"

It didn't factor into my logic because of the 10-year life cycle claim that came from Sony....or did you forget that?

And MS execs have bandied about 2012...Hypocritical?

Of course, Sony is completely trustworthy and this is 100% feasible....Not to mention the public will buy fact over rumour...Right?

The 10 year plan will make the PS3 severely dated unless they let us upgrade more than just the HDD. The BD drive is already sorely dated.

That was not a valid counterpoint to anything I said that made you want to respond that way.

Except your statement was slanted. Faux news, DP. You're very quick to stoop to their level, despite BAWWWWing about them.

You're also assuming Sony won't answer the price cut or that no one will be interested in LBP or Resistence 2 (or, for that matter, a free online service or the Home service).

I'm not assuming the latter. Thanks for making that up. However, in terms of the former, Sony has explicitly stated they won't be answering the price cut, as has Nintendo.

Granted, I don't believe Sony as blindly and faithfully as you do, but doesn't that undercut the whole thing you said earlier about Sony's ten year plan if they do end up answering the price cuts?

Beyond that, it's not exactly the greatest of arguments, since Sony's still taking a bath, and reducing the price will have an impact on more than just sales....Or does that magically go away?

Pot, meet kettle.

You can say it, but since I'm not actually assuming...

Well, you're building a house of cards.

So you're saying that them wanting to use as much of 50GBs as possible is lazy? I don't get your logic of how developing on Blu Ray constitutes as being lazy

That's great, but since it's not what I said (I said it wasn't needed, as opposed to the argument of desirability you're now trying to attribute to me), arguments of redundancy and not getting my logic are kind of pointless. You're right. You don't get my logic. You then went on to make an unrelated argument. Well, more a tangentially related than anything, but fails to address me properly.

or the logic in developing for a more powerful console or making that console the lead platform of development is being lazy.

I want to know what orfice you're pulling these out of.

You're basically saying that anyone that wants to develop for the PS3 is lazy? Talk about making a pure fanboy comment.

We agree. That's a pure fanboy statement.

However comma, I neither said it nor "basically" said it. You had to practically completely rewrite my statement in order to arrive at it.

I'm going to have to echo Hasney's "ignorant or stupid" comment. I'm not sure which is the sadder possibility: That you feel the need to lie to make an argument, or that you might actually believe what you claim I said is even remotely accurate.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Originally Posted by darkpower Seriously, do you people ever just disagree without using the rep button as a weapon or attacking character instead of just the points?

Only when it's so funny to see you get butthurt over some dots on the interwebs

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Hasney Only when it's so funny to see you get butthurt over some dots on the interwebs

You ever notice how he's often pre-emptively on the attack, too?

I mean, I know I'm the antichrist and everything, but it always amuses me to no end watching a guy who makes preemptive attacks whip up complaints that people have nothing better to do than attack.

But then, I'm also a fan of the baseless KANE KNIGHT KONSPIRACY.

[DS]

Originally Posted by Requiem I agree with all of that except 'More Halos'. The franchise has already been played out.. they're already doing an RTS - Halo Wars. And the shooter itself has pretty much reached its high point. (In my opinion it reached a high point with Halo 1, and the redesign of the game in 2 and 3 just didn't quite cut it) What they need, is a Final Fantasy (no, not the actual game). They need a franchise that can define the 360 for years to come, not to mention xbox as a whole. Something they could use to carry this system, and their next. As it is, I can't think of a specific title that really 'screams' xbox, like Final Fantasy did for Sony. (For the record, I hate Final Fantasy.. just making a comparison)

I agree. But some of those are unneeded. They just need to focus on the next Xbox mainly.

[Fryza]

Free Live would suck.

Also: PS3 has a noted feature about it: Generally, people exchange them the next day for 360s. I have worked with GameStop for basically two years now, and I have only once seen the opposite being true.

Maybe on an over-all scale the PS3 has been winning monthly, but from where I sit and stand, that doesn't appear accurate.

[DS]

Why would free Live suck?

[Requiem]

Yeah, I don't agree with that at all. While I can see paying for Live, and I do not have anything against it being a pay service, I think it would be better if it were more accessible - IE; free.

[Fryza]

Anyone with an internet connection would then be on Live (well, technically they are anyway).

It's like the PS3 service. It's free. It's also the second-in-line service. Because so many people are accessing the service, it has troubles recognizing that.

Like when Halo 3 came out, or around Christmas. Xbox Live gets clogged because so many people on games with Gold accounts. Floods the system, making it harder to run. The less people who have Gold, the faster the servers load things.

Or maybe I'm talking out my ass. I do that a lot too.

[DS]

You wouldn't see anyone worse than what you would now. And it would just require them to install more servers for the service. There could be a problem at first if they underestimate it again but they can get it sorted out and working just fine.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by DS You wouldn't see anyone worse than what you would now. And it would just require them to install more servers for the service. There could be a problem at first if they underestimate it again but they can get it sorted out and working just fine.

In other words, it'd be the same as the service is now. They always seem to underestimate Christmas expansion, for example.

[DS]

Except free. Not seeing a downside here.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight In other words, it'd be the same as the service is now. They always seem to underestimate Christmas expansion, for example.

Yeah, basically, only it would be a FREE service that they underestimate the user base of.

[darkpower]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight I didn't. I made a statement of rebuttal.

So...you insulting me and anyone who dares to disagree with you (that you do often to people that CAN counterpoint you and choose to do so) is rebutting? Wow! That's a new definition.

I'm not the one who tried to change the topic when it was brought up. I'm not repeating a question, because it's not a question. I'm not repeating it because I didn't like the answer. I'm repeating it because it's still valid.

You keep telling yourself that. Doesn't make it anymore true if you repeat it over and over again so people believe it IS true.

That and you also go into bully mode when you do start getting pwned. The only problem is that I have NO problem having this debate.

Replace "addressed" as "dismissed with bias" and you're probably correct.

You take being fair to all consoles and not trying to reach for something to use to say "yeah, here's WHY you're point doesn't matter" as "dismissing with bias"?

Wait...This, a move done by most manufacturers with almost all systems, is a move of desperation? Sweet.

Dude, it is when it comes just when your console gets ass raped by 20k consoles during the month of July. That and way to completely ignore that I said that they have no need to BE in desperation mode yet since they don't have too much TO be worried about. However, this seems to be them acting desperate when they don't need to be.

I will answer you the same way I would a "truther."

Funny, because I've yet to see you actually succeed at doing that, either.

I "ignored" the statement in the same way I "ignore" the possibilities that a Vogon Contructor Fleet might have used the WTC as a test for their demolition of Earth to make way for a new Hyperspace bypass.

Not that I've ever HEARD that conspiracy, but way to bring 9.11 into this? What's the next thing you'll try to invoke into this, HIROSHIMA?!

I should probably ignore the unfounded speculation that Microsoft "probably" won't be able to keep charging for long. However, if it'll stop you from bitching, that is unfounded spexulation.

NO ONE SAID IT WAS FACT YET, YOU DUMBASS!! It is something that the actual article I posted to START this thread said, and it seems like most of the people on this thread had agreed to that point. It is OPINION that MS SHOULD consider that. No one knows if they ARE or if they will think about it. Apparently you have problems seeing the difference between opinion and fact. Why am I not surprised?

Right. And if you discount the apps one group has and stack the other....

Again, no one has said that MS didn't have apps this year, but heavy hitters? Can you NAME any other heavy hitters besides GOW2 and Fable 2 that MS has coming the remainder of this year that will be system sellers?

Wow. You're extending this to Nintendo not having anything else? Well, that certainly doesn't hurt your argument.

Jesus, man, you're really reaching to find a reason to attack my argument now. Again, PLEASE name something else coming from Ninendo that is SOO good that we should be excited about (and this is hurting me saying that because I do also own a Wii, not that you could've forgotten that, and I wish they DID have a better lineup this year)? The only thing they really had was Wii Music, and it wasn't recieved well at ALL!

But I see what you did here. You took something that we all agreed on and twisted it in order to fit into your argument. You're doing whatever you can to hold onto your argument that has lost any and all cred from anyone that isn't in your little circle of friends that will defend you no matter what.

Again, tell me something I should be excited about from Nintendo, because I'm not sure where you heard this other crazy, killer app that blew everyone away!

By the way, since Hasney mentioned the Attach Rates, NPD included TWO Pack-In titles for the Wii when factoring those numbers, dropping the actual numbers from 5.x to 3.x. Oh look. The numbers aren't that good when we dishonestly stack our deck. Nintendo also tries to throw in WiiWare into their RETAIL numbers.

So...you're getting your numbers from where, VGChatz.com? Last time I checked, it would BE the Wii that has the biggest install base because they have slaughtered just about EVERYTHING ever since it came out.

Speaking of desperation...Now you're trying to make stuff up to make me look like I'm wrong. But since you opened that door, isn't that the exact sort of attitude you're taking when you argue that Microsoft probably can't continue to charge for live? Are you going to presume to tell them whether or not they can charge for Live? No, you're not presuming to tell them that, nor am I presuming to tell them the price cuts are unnecessary. That isn't the point. Please don't make up arguments. If you don't understand, ask for clarifcation, rather than fabricating.

First, where the hell did I ever change your argument or make you look like you're wrong? You do such a good job doing that yourself that I don't think I could help you on that any better than you can.

And plus....are you saying that IGN was wrong for making that opinion? Again, this is just an opinion. It's an opinion I agree with, and apparently a few other people ON HERE (in case you're looking for them) do, as well. Are you saying we're not allowed to EXPRESS that opinion? It's a well thought out opinion based upon how much improvement the competition has done to their own network. Sounds like you're having issue that people will believe something that you don't want them to believe.

No, but we are talking the long game here.

Yeah, of course we are, but have you seen how quickly things are changing right now? Did anyone expect Sony to even find their feet, much less have the success they are now getting? Of course you didn't, nor did you ever want them to from the sounds of it! Your only response to someone making any pro-Sony argument is "you're loving Sony" and all of that.

Yes. That's exactly what I'm predicting. Oh, wait....

Hold on, so you're actually saying that you WANT MS to get the lead back? You actually told us that Sony not having THAT much of a console win for a monthly sales figure would mean the world would be right? So, how are we NOT supposed to believe that you have some agenda? Oh wait, you don't, you're just making (slanted) logic (spun so you can believe what you want and then no one else is allowed to call you on).

Says the guy who's talking about speculation against evidence....

I'm arguing with some guy who's so used to getting the upper hand on every argument that when he doesn't, he gets so asshurt that he begins bullying and immaturity, to the point that others react to you the same way (thereby getting exactly what you want, anyway).

And you're talking about facts vs. opinions. It IS a fact that Sony's PS3 sold 20k more units than the 360 for the month of July. It's OPINION that we think MS should drop the charge on XBox Live (by the way, why would you bitch if they DID drop that charge? That's beneficial for you, right, and it would make the service even MORE attractive since it's supposed to be so much better, right?). It's very simple, really.

The reality you've fabricated in which analogous spikes immediately translate into a diamond future? k.

Soooooo...you can back up anything YOU'RE saying, or are we just supposed to say it's just "simple logic" that everyone should understand? Remember, YOU'RE the one interjecting half of these arguments into this conversation, so you might want to start giving us links and shit to back it up (oh, and if you want ME to do that, I'm more than willing). You say it's common logic what you say, so let's see these figures, these articles that back up anything you're saying!

I don't suppose you realise how stupid that sounds...Nah. Be too easy. An unfounded rumour continuing suddenly validates it?

So...why is it not dead yet? Why don't you go find these evil people that keep "spreading" this rumor and tell them why they are so wrong? Just don't come crying to us when you come back saying that they ate you alive because you didn't have anything to back up your claim as to WHY you believe that or why they shouldn't be allowed to express THEIR opinion?

Think about this for a minute: If you got a rumor that they deny (and of COURSE MS is going to deny it after the disaster that was the XBox to 360 transition where they pissed off EVERYONE by dropping XB1 support like a bad habit, why would they want to lose customers that were butthurt over that before but decided to give them a second chance with the 360 by making them think it will happen again so soon), but then someone else keeps hearing it and keeps spreading it, they're obviously SOME reason why the rumor doesn't die. Now, it's either they are stupid enough to keep spreading it, somoene at MS has too much time on their hands to fuck with people, or there is something MS is telling us. Tell me where this doesn't make sense to you.

Didn't say that. I love how "they remember." It's vague, it's pointless, it's not born out by a loss of sales in 2007, when it was also being covered by all the blog sites. AKA: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull another rabbit out of my hat!"

Let me go back to the quote you had said that made me respond that way to begin with:

Such rumours didn't hurt sales of the PS2. The PS3 and 360 didn't really hurt sales of the PS2. Yet, for some reason, logic dictates it will have an impact here? Nah. These are hypotheticals thrown out to demonstrate an extreme scenario in which there might be an issue.

Now, think about this. The reason why the PS2's sales weren't hurt: The PS2 was STILL BEING SUPPORTED BY SONY! Hell, they're refusing TO end support for it. How will sales stop if you keep fueling the fire?

On the other hand, what happened to the original XB1 when MS introduced the 360? Did you hear anything else from that? MS drops support for the original XB1 (and for that matter, wanted to drop all support for WinXP earlier this year before people spoke up), and pretends the 360 is the only system they ever made. Now, if that was YOU who was not ready to commit to a new system with them doing that crap, how would YOU be feeling? This is not an extreme scenario because it's ALREADY HAPPENED, and MS has this reputation to just drop support for their old products to force people to commit to purchasing their newest stuff. So...where should anyone NOT be afraid that if and when MS announces a 720 that they will do the exact same damn thing again? How are you so confident?

And MS execs have bandied about 2012...Hypocritical? Of course, Sony is completely trustworthy and this is 100% feasible....Not to mention the public will buy fact over rumour...Right? The 10 year plan will make the PS3 severely dated unless they let us upgrade more than just the HDD. The BD drive is already sorely dated.

Read above.

And let's talk about this: Sony is so unbelievable and everyone takes them with a grain of salt, but MS has yet to tell a lie or blow up the truth in their favor, right? So, basically, no one is ever believable EXCEPT for MS? Having a hard time digesting THAT! And yes, you DID say this because you're the one bringing this 2012 thing up.

And how is the BD drive outdated? A BD player that Sony had made is outdated in playing a format that Sony made! Not sure of the sense of that.

Except your statement was slanted. Faux news, DP. You're very quick to stoop to their level, despite BAWWWWing about them.

And your word is the gospel of truth, right? We're all supposed to just not believe anything else except whatever you read to make you come up with these arguments, huh? And you're saying I'M the one slanting?

I'm not assuming the latter. Thanks for making that up. However, in terms of the former, Sony has explicitly stated they won't be answering the price cut, as has Nintendo. Granted, I don't believe Sony as blindly and faithfully as you do, but doesn't that undercut the whole thing you said earlier about Sony's ten year plan if they do end up answering the price cuts? Beyond that, it's not exactly the greatest of arguments, since Sony's still taking a bath, and reducing the price will have an impact on more than just sales....Or does that magically go away?

You don't have to say anything in order to make anyone IMPLY anything. And I don't blindly believe in anything (how are you coming up with half of these arguments you use to begin with?).

Again, to what you DID say:

Assuming they can consistantly widen the gap, yet to be demonstrated. Also assuming the fall lineup of games, price cuts and Holiday season all have no impact.

Now, think, what DOES come out for Sony this holiday season? LBP (which is slated to BE a system seller, keyword, slated), Resistence 2 (anyone who got word on the success of R1 will be interested), Home (which is getting more and more press. Use the Google for once), or anything else that they would be able to come out with. Also, you're not taking into the account the amount of people getting a HDTV for the Digital TV conversion, which would make someone want to buy a Blu Ray player, which in turn will want to get the most valuable and cheapest Blu Ray Player, and guess what that will be?

What does MS have to compete with these advantages Sony could have going for them? Yes, they have the price cut that makes the Arcade version the cheapest out of the three system (which make it more attractive for someone wanting a cheap new system to buy for their kids or someone that won't give a shit about the hard drive). But they really don't have much of anything else.

Now, you choosing to completely ignore ALL of that makes us tell something about what you wanted to tell us. Just because you don't type it up doesn't mean you weren't trying to make us see what you really wanted to type up.

[darkpower]

You can say it, but since I'm not actually assuming... Well, you're building a house of cards.

Who's the one taking all of this so personally? Even before the spazz out, you've been pitching a bitch whenever someone comes on here and takes down your sand-made arguments and try to do whatever you can to make sure you can win it (because you're so used TO winning them. Not used to anyone else being able to outargue you).

Dude, MS is going to have their problems, and they are right now. Granted, it's nothing I don't think they can't get over, but still, if Sony can have a bad year, then MS can, and so can Nintendo. MS isn't so exempt from making mistakes.

Then again, YOU'RE the one who said (or implied, which one do you want me to use to make you satisfied enough to not use that "I didn't say that" argument as a way to get out of the argument with your head intact?) that all will be right with the world in August. How can I possibly beat THAT?

That's great, but since it's not what I said (I said it wasn't needed, as opposed to the argument of desirability you're now trying to attribute to me), arguments of redundancy and not getting my logic are kind of pointless. You're right. You don't get my logic. You then went on to make an unrelated argument. Well, more a tangentially related than anything, but fails to address me properly.

Okay, so since THAT didn't get through, maybe we should try THIS, instead: Games are getting bigger in size. Deveopers WILL need more space, more power. What specs does the 360 have? What specs does the PS3 have? What will devs want to use more as they make bigger games? What will be the lead platform in the future for development? The 360 is made like a PC (think of who MADE the 360), and games made on the 360 will have the same coding as a game that would be on the PC (which, in turn, is why you see so many of these so-called "360 exclusives" be released on the PC so quickly. It's VERY easy to port them). Now, when you port a game from a platform that doesn't has a much power to one that can run a game at a higher power, what do you think will happen. Anyone remember the Orange Box (I think I brought this up before, too)? Devs who have done this in the past did not want to take advantage of ANYTHING the PS3 had, or even change much of the coding. So, in turn, devs are lazy when they don't take into account any differences in the systems and just release a game because they want the game to play the same on both consoles, and because a DVD-9 has less space than a Blu-Ray, you will see that none of that space and power is taken advantage of.

Then again, how much of that will you even consider?

I want to know what orfice you're pulling these out of.

Wow, way to just turn it around as if you actually MADE any case.

We agree. That's a pure fanboy statement. However comma, I neither said it nor "basically" said it. You had to practically completely rewrite my statement in order to arrive at it.

Well, when you turn a general argument of "developers are lazy for not taking advantages that a console will give you" into "devs are lazy because they have to use extra space to make games" (which begs the question: Why are you trying to restrict how big developers' games have to be?), then yeah, it screams fanboyism. What the hell are you EXPECTING anyone to take from that statement? That, coupled with what you said earlier (and yes, you "basically" said both those quotes), should make anyone ask questions about which system you really want to be on top.

I'm going to have to echo Hasney's "ignorant or stupid" comment. I'm not sure which is the sadder possibility: That you feel the need to lie to make an argument, or that you might actually believe what you claim I said is even remotely accurate.

You know the saddest thing: I had said, and rightfully so, that Hasney had made good arguments in other threads when he is not going out and fighting your battles. He can make good arguments that people will have to think about when trying to counterpoint them. It's more than what I can say about you. If he would only be brave enough to disagree with you on SOMETHING!