Where is this Gopher Guerrero stuff going?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by screech Ron Killings is over with the fans with all of his flashiness (not a big fan but it works), Shelton can wrestle a great match, The Brian Kendrick can actually cut a promo, and all of them have charisma. Chavo has none of these qualities.

I'd argue that Chavo can wrestle a great match and has charisma. He may not be able to cut a great promo, but he his serviceable on the mic.

[screech]

Originally Posted by Noid I'd argue that Chavo can wrestle a great match and has charisma. He may not be able to cut a great promo, but he his serviceable on the mic.

I just don't see how he has any charisma by himself. Yes, with Eddie he was mildly entertaining, but that was mostly Eddie. As I've said in other threads, I really just can't stand watching a Chavo match (or promo for that matter). To me, how good the match is depends on his opponent.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by screech I just don't see how he has any charisma by himself. Yes, with Eddie he was mildly entertaining, but that was mostly Eddie. As I've said in other threads, I really just can't stand watching a Chavo match (or promo for that matter). To me, how good the match is depends on his opponent.

This is a board where people were actually arguing that Edge was ME material, admitting he wasn't good in the ring, but was capable of being carried.

Chavo's probably no worse in the sense that he can play well enough with others. When working with someone who's great, he can look good.

Of course, that leads to pushing people who have no ability to really stand on their own, as opposed to personalities and talents which can be used in programs against virtually everyone.

But hey, that's what people seem towant. Guys who can be carried.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight This is a board where people were actually arguing that Edge was ME material, admitting he wasn't good in the ring, but was capable of being carried. Chavo's probably no worse in the sense that he can play well enough with others. When working with someone who's great, he can look good. Of course, that leads to pushing people who have no ability to really stand on their own, as opposed to personalities and talents which can be used in programs against virtually everyone. But hey, that's what people seem towant. Guys who can be carried.

I don't think people ever said that Edge wasn't good in the ring. I know some people said that said he can be carried to great matches, but when working with crappy opponents, his matches can turn out pretty messy. I know I was one of them.

The thing about that, though, is that it falls equally as much on Edge's opponent as it does Edge. If Edge had a snoozer with Randy Orton, then it is just as much Orton's fault as it is Edge's.

Sure, the ideal wrestler would be able to have a good match with everyone; but just how many of those guys are there out there? Triple H can't fucking do it. Shawn Michaels is one that a lot of people will throw out there, but he's had some borefests, too. The thing is, if every one of your top talents can work with the best talents to produce great matches, and that your top talents are your best talents, there's no real problem with pushing a guy who can't get a great showing out of Gene Snitsky.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by screech I just don't see how he has any charisma by himself. Yes, with Eddie he was mildly entertaining, but that was mostly Eddie. As I've said in other threads, I really just can't stand watching a Chavo match (or promo for that matter). To me, how good the match is depends on his opponent.

People often confuse charisma with an outgoing personality. Chavo doesn't exactly portray a party animal persona, but that doesn't mean he is without charisma.

Chavo has long been over with the WWE audience, and that is not solely Eddie's doing. Prior to Eddie's death, Chavo was still able to get the fans to boo him or cheer him according to his face/heel alignment. Granted, I would have never picked him for a future World Champion, but I'd definitely put him ahead of guys like Khali and Mark Henry on my list of preferred guys to win the big one.

I'm sensing that you just don't like Chavo. Could that be a possibility? I'm not suggesting that as a negative thing, it's your prerogative, and there are some guys that I am not particularly fond of (Jeff Hardy and Triple H come to mind), but I can admit that they are both good talents. Do you really believe that Chavo needs to be carried? I've seen Chavo do more than his fair share of carrying, is all.

[screech]

Originally Posted by Noid People often confuse charisma with an outgoing personality. Chavo doesn't exactly portray a party animal persona, but that doesn't mean he is without charisma. Chavo has long been over with the WWE audience, and that is not solely Eddie's doing. Prior to Eddie's death, Chavo was still able to get the fans to boo him or cheer him according to his face/heel alignment. Granted, I would have never picked him for a future World Champion, but I'd definitely put him ahead of guys like Khali and Mark Henry on my list of preferred guys to win the big one. I'm sensing that you just don't like Chavo. Could that be a possibility? I'm not suggesting that as a negative thing, it's your prerogative, and there are some guys that I am not particularly fond of (Jeff Hardy and Triple H come to mind), but I can admit that they are both good talents. Do you really believe that Chavo needs to be carried? I've seen Chavo do more than his fair share of carrying, is all.

To me, Chavo has always been "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" rather than just Chavo. So that cheering/booing has seemed by association in a sense. When he was with Eddie (face or heel), the reaction were because of Eddie. He joined La Familia, the reactions are/were because of Edge and Vickie. Even when he does the Three Amigos, he gets booed instead of cheered now. At first, it was seen as a tribute because he dropped Kerwin White and was featured prominently as "Eddie's nephew." Now, since he's teamed with heels and they're getting heat, he is getting heat also. That's just how I've seen, and still see, Chavo. The only time he's really been his own "character" I guess is Kerwin White (which I liked).

You are correct, sir. I do not like Chavo at all. The matches I've seen of his were good depending on his opponent (as I said before). I just don't think Chavo is very good on his own. More often than not, I see him as needing to be carried in matches and through feuds (CM Punk comes to mind right away).

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by screech To me, Chavo has always been "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" rather than just Chavo. So that cheering/booing has seemed by association in a sense. When he was with Eddie (face or heel), the reaction were because of Eddie. He joined La Familia, the reactions are/were because of Edge and Vickie. Even when he does the Three Amigos, he gets booed instead of cheered now. At first, it was seen as a tribute because he dropped Kerwin White and was featured prominently as "Eddie's nephew." Now, since he's teamed with heels and they're getting heat, he is getting heat also. That's just how I've seen, and still see, Chavo. The only time he's really been his own "character" I guess is Kerwin White (which I liked). You are correct, sir. I do not like Chavo at all. The matches I've seen of his were good depending on his opponent (as I said before). I just don't think Chavo is very good on his own. More often than not, I see him as needing to be carried in matches and through feuds (CM Punk comes to mind right away).

Thank you for actually discussing this.

Your views aren't without logic, but I do not quite agree. While being "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" has certainly helped him. With longetivity and the number of opportunities he has been given, to say the least, I do not think that can be attributed as the sole source of Chavo's heat. Zack Ryder & Curt Hawkins were also aligned with Vickie Guerrero and Edge, but I don't remember them getting nearly as much heat as Chavo consistently gets.

Sure, being Eddie's nephew probably heightens that, but it's not something that Chavo can help, and I don't think it should be held against him. Being multi-generation stars didn't exactly help Sim Snuka and Manu instantly set the world on fire, so I don't think it is something that is a sure-fire thing. Chavo has had to work at his connection with the fans, I believe.

I want to ask you if you think your opinion of Chavo Guerrero's abilities may be biased? I'm not accusing you of that, but purely asking for a self-reflection of whether or not you think it is possible. I can't remember the last time I saw a bad match out of Chavo Guerrero, is all.

[screech]

Originally Posted by Noid Thank you for actually discussing this. Your views aren't without logic, but I do not quite agree. While being "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" has certainly helped him. With longetivity and the number of opportunities he has been given, to say the least, I do not think that can be attributed as the sole source of Chavo's heat. Zack Ryder & Curt Hawkins were also aligned with Vickie Guerrero and Edge, but I don't remember them getting nearly as much heat as Chavo consistently gets.

I really think being seen as "Eddie's nephew" (and Vickie's) hurts him now. While Eddie was alive, Chavo was seen as trying to be like him, and paying tribute after his death. Now though, he's still seen as a nephew and he is doing heel things, so his tributes to Eddie generate heat rather than cheers. Hawkins and Ryder basically came out of nowhere, and people just wondered what exactly their role was other than being Edge's lackeys. (And they never seemed to try to get rid of that association.) The difference with Chavo is that he is trying to not be seen as a nephew, and it isn't working.

Originally Posted by Noid Sure, being Eddie's nephew probably heightens that, but it's not something that Chavo can help, and I don't think it should be held against him. Being multi-generation stars didn't exactly help Sim Snuka and Manu instantly set the world on fire, so I don't think it is something that is a sure-fire thing. Chavo has had to work at his connection with the fans, I believe.

It shouldn't be held against him, but again, his efforts to "get away" from that are coming up short. I agree, he has to work on his connection with the fans, because to me it's not there at all.

Originally Posted by Noid I want to ask you if you think your opinion of Chavo Guerrero's abilities may be biased? I'm not accusing you of that, but purely asking for a self-reflection of whether or not you think it is possible. I can't remember the last time I saw a bad match out of Chavo Guerrero, is all.

Maybe they are biased. I really dislike Chavo. Again, his good matches have been because of his opponents to me. I have never been entertained by anything Chavo has done. His stuff with Eddie was entertaining because of Eddie, not Chavo.

Apologies for the delay, I went away for the weekend.

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by Noid I've felt that Chavo has been doing some really good promos recently. He's not a genius on the mic, or nearly as charismatic as his uncle was, but to be honest, I truthfully believe he's much more charismatic than a lot of the WWE roster.

Originally Posted by Noid No, I don't. Don't tell me what I do and don't think. I could rank the guys in the WWE in order of their promo abilities, and I'd put Chavo Guerrero somewhere past half-way.

Originally Posted by Noid I'd argue that Chavo can wrestle a great match and has charisma. He may not be able to cut a great promo, but he his serviceable on the mic.

I love how through the same thread Noids opinion of Chavo the mic slips, but Noid still want to push him further than he should. Seriously, Noid see how you go from really good, to just above average, to merely servicable? I mean you literally are losing ground with ever back and forth in this thread. Why can't you just agree this is as good as Chavo is going to be for the rest of his career. Chavo is on the downward slope. He isn't useless, yet, but he isn't Legacy material.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool I love how through the same thread Noids opinion of Chavo the mic slips, but Noid still want to push him further than he should. Seriously, Noid see how you go from really good, to just above average, to merely servicable? I mean you literally are losing ground with ever back and forth in this thread. Why can't you just agree this is as good as Chavo is going to be for the rest of his career. Chavo is on the downward slope. He isn't useless, yet, but he isn't Legacy material.

Chavo has been cutting some good promos lately. That much is true. Overall his mic skills aren't fantastic, but they're above average. And just so you know, the reason I keep playing devil's advocate with Chavo is for the sake of discussion. If you do not want to discuss, get the fuck out. Simple.

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by Noid Chavo has been cutting some good promos lately. That much is true. Overall his mic skills aren't fantastic, but they're above average. And just so you know, the reason I keep playing devil's advocate with Chavo is for the sake of discussion. If you do not want to discuss, get the fuck out. Simple.

You are playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion? You do realize that "devil's advocate" means you disagree with the position, but are just doing it to continue an argument? So there for you are saying you just wanted to argue about how Chavo needs to be in a hire position without believing it?

If that is true, then no one in this thread thinks Chavo needs to move up? So therefore thread is over.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool You are playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion? You do realize that "devil's advocate" means you disagree with the position, but are just doing it to continue an argument? So there for you are saying you just wanted to argue about how Chavo needs to be in a hire position without believing it? If that is true, then no one in this thread thinks Chavo needs to move up? So therefore thread is over.

Not neccessarily. Devil's advocate doesn't mean you disagree with the position. It just means you are arguing for the sake of argument. I am just looking for someone to actually discuss the pros and cons of Chavo's upside in the WWE. Personally, I think it is greater than what people are giving him credit for.

I haven't neccessarily completely disagree with what people have been saying about Chavo, though. I get that he doesn't ooze that "it" factor. I do think that a lot of what I am discussing, mainly with screech, is subjective, though.