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Old 03-13-2011, 07:53 PM   #41
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First off, I was talking about Hogans later WWE run in terms of Vince. Didn't mean his original run. Meant to clarify that.

And I'm not saying that Hogan had nothing to do with WrestleMania, but in terms of level of importance, he's not number one or number two. Anyone (with a shit load of charisma) who was in Hogan's position (superman push), going after Piper and siding with Mr. T would have drawn similarly.

I'm not saying there WAS someone who could have taken Hogan's spot back then. There may have been and there may not have been (it was going to happen with someone, no doubt) but without the uber heel in Piper I doubt Hogan could have drawn nearly as well with someone else. And without Lauper and Mr. T, WrestleMania doesn't happen. It's that simple.

I'm going a little off topic here, but that's the difference between someone like Piper and Hogan. Hogan was a cookie cutter good guy with a rocket strapped to his ass. Piper was out of the ordinary. He carried himself differently and was on a completely different level than A LOT of people. Hogan was replaceable with the right person. Piper was not.
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Old 03-13-2011, 07:58 PM   #42
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Yeah CSL...

Alot of NWA World Champions worked helluva lot harder then the Hulkster

and there's no maybe about it

They traveled all over the world defending the belt and that's something Hulk never did

Lou Thesz was 10 times better as a worker then Hogan ever was
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:01 PM   #43
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The original question wasn't whether or not Hogan worked hard or got milked by Vince. It wasn't even whether or not he was talented.
It was whether or not, in theory, some other cartoonish lightning storm of charisma could have existed in that role.
I think that's certainly open for discussion, at the very least.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:03 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth82 View Post
Yeah CSL...

Alot of NWA World Champions worked helluva lot harder then the Hulkster

and there's no maybe about it

They traveled all over the world defending the belt and that's something Hulk never did

Lou Thesz was 10 times better as a worker then Hogan ever was
Great, but we're not taking work rate here, otherwise one could feasibly say that Steve Lombardi could have been in Hogans position and drew that much.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:08 PM   #45
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anyways back to the original topic

I've heard that Vince wanted Kerry Von Erich as the top guy

but obviously Kerry stayed with his father's promotion and Vince got Hogan

what do you guys think about that choice?

Kerry was a huge star at that point
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:09 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
So anything or body that has ever been influenced by something or body else is a ripoff now? Not saying that at all. Austin was influenced by the movie Natural Born Killers, Foley by Cape Fear and so on and so on. Their choices, however, have had greater influence on wrestlers and the way wrestling has been portrayed on television. Again, I dislike Hogan for his character, I have always disliked Hogan even a small child. I have no problem admitting that he was the quintessential main-eventer of the 80s and 90s. But, giving him credit for a gimmick that Vince McMahon was going to give to somebody, regardless of whether or not Hogan existed seems a bit much.

Who is to say that Savage, given that very gimmick wouldn't have done as well, slightly less well or better than Hogan???

And who gives a fuck about his apparent 'bad behaviour'? I do.

Did he hold you down? Did he stop you from earning money? No.

Do you even watch TNA? I used to watch TNA. Also used to think TNA was great in 2008. Last time I tried was a few months ago.

This ridiculous notion of holding things against certain guys, the Jeff Hardys, the Hogans, the holding apparent truths that some idiot wrote on a website against a performer is pretty stupid. But you're hardly the first to do it. Well, to be fair, most of the things I don't like him for are things he freely admits. Some I choose to believe based on the wrestler that accuses him, which I guess comes down to me personally finding their accusations believable. Some stuff can't be denied...his bullshit sand-bagging on UT's chokeslam on his return to the WWE seems pretty straight-forward.

You should judge Hulk Hogan on whatever he did or does on screen, you are a wrestling fan, nothing else. I am more than a wrestling fan.

If you don't like Hogan the performer, fair enough, just say that. But don't support it with a bunch of ridiculous comments based on what may or not be true just because some bell-ends on the internet act like it's common and factual knowledge.
That is fair. However, the steroid scandal was more than just some "internet rumor"...Hell, there weren't websites around when that happened. I don't like Hogan the performer though he was once an adequate wrestler had an impressive physique and made millions of fans happy all around the world.

However, disliking someone because of their real life actions is a legitimate reason to dislike someone. I can no longer watch Chris Benoit matches without cringing, Jake the Snake smells like vomit and horror, Ric Flair wrestling these days makes me deeply sad and I'm pretty much disgusted by the idea of Jeff Hardy capturing the TNA World Title while being pretty much an admitted drug dealer.
My answers in red.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:11 PM   #47
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Red face
Drugs are bad, fair enough... But then who replaces Hogan in the 80's steroid-crazy times?
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:12 PM   #48
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:15 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero View Post
First off, I was talking about Hogans later WWE run in terms of Vince. Didn't mean his original run. Meant to clarify that.

And I'm not saying that Hogan had nothing to do with WrestleMania, but in terms of level of importance, he's not number one or number two. Anyone (with a shit load of charisma) who was in Hogan's position (superman push), going after Piper and siding with Mr. T would have drawn similarly.

I'm not saying there WAS someone who could have taken Hogan's spot back then. There may have been and there may not have been (it was going to happen with someone, no doubt) but without the uber heel in Piper I doubt Hogan could have drawn nearly as well with someone else. And without Lauper and Mr. T, WrestleMania doesn't happen. It's that simple.

I'm going a little off topic here, but that's the difference between someone like Piper and Hogan. Hogan was a cookie cutter good guy with a rocket strapped to his ass. Piper was out of the ordinary. He carried himself differently and was on a completely different level than A LOT of people. Hogan was replaceable with the right person. Piper was not.
Of course Piper was replaceable. Whoever replaced him may not have been as good but it wouldn't have mattered because he'd have been against Hogan and that's what mattered, that's what people paid to see. He was the guy in the A-Team, in films, on chat shows, the guy with the exposure standing alongside Mr. T, as well as getting it done on the road. The most important thing to being a success in wrestling is getting over. It's the key to everything. If you aren't over, you don't make money for you or your company. And Hogan did that better than anybody in the history of the business. That's what made him irreplaceable, the connection with the people. If Piper had been 'the guy', 'the real star', I doubt Vince would have hesitated to turn him blue-eye and have him as his flagship guy. You seem to be going by the Noid Fantasy Booking Rule that is you can get anybody over if you just simply give them a push. You're looking at this completely from a smart mark 'workrate' and 'edgy gimmicks' point of view when the object of the business is to make money. Which Hogan did better than anybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth82 View Post
Yeah CSL...

Alot of NWA World Champions worked helluva lot harder then the Hulkster

and there's no maybe about it

They traveled all over the world defending the belt and that's something Hulk never did

Lou Thesz was 10 times better as a worker then Hogan ever was
I knew somebody like you would pop up. A plane ride overseas isn't much different to a plane ride from LA to NYC. Only the NWA champion didn't have a million press appearances to make in between. So please feel free to step down from this 'NWA champions were better because Flair talked about working 365 days a year' gimmick that so many are fond of. And I said 'maybe'. I don't know for a fact and neither do you. End of.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:18 PM   #50
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And please, Lou Thesz was twice as tough as Hogan maybe, could tie Hogan in knots in a legit contest. But his matches were boring. Ditto Harley for the most part, ditto Jack Brisco and so on and so on, when the business was still kayfabed to shit and actual newspapers would run stories on wrestling like it was all a shoot. Hogan was an entirely different time, a different style and a different product, there is no comparison to be made.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:20 PM   #51
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Hogan gets credit because he was the one who put people in seats. An idea isn't anything. You can play the what if game all day but it's irrelevant how well someone else would have done because Hogan did do it.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:20 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
And please, Lou Thesz was twice as tough as Hogan maybe, could tie Hogan in knots in a legit contest. But his matches were boring. Ditto Harley for the most part, ditto Jack Brisco and so on and so on, when the business was still kayfabed to shit and actual newspapers would run stories on wrestling like it was all a shoot. Hogan was an entirely different time, a different style and a different product, there is no comparison to be made.
That maybe true

but I just cannot stand it when people think Hogan SAVED the business and that he revolutionized anything
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:29 PM   #53
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He didn't 'save' it, wrestling would still be around today Hulk Hogan or not, how big or successful etc it is is another question and story. But he definitely revolutionized the business. Have you watched Backlund matches, Bruno matches and so on? No matter who's the ideas they were, Hogan was the one out there executing it all, the face of everything, the one actually getting it done. You didn't see people in the stands at Bulls games in Chicago wearing Phil Jackson jerseys. They were too busy going apeshit over the show being put on by the ridiculously good and successful Michael Jordan and his supporting cast.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedamndest View Post
Hogan gets credit because he was the one who put people in seats. An idea isn't anything. You can play the what if game all day but it's irrelevant how well someone else would have done because Hogan did do it.
Or this.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:39 PM   #55
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God for someone who bitches that people dismiss Hogan you sure just did a fantastic job dismissing Piper there CSL
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:08 AM   #56
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Have always questioned this to tbh, but i'm no expert on the matter. He was just in the right place, at the right time sort of thing.
::sigh:: I guess I need to do the honors. Frankly, I'm shocked and amazed this topic lasted 2 pages without this:
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:27 AM   #57
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God for someone who bitches that people dismiss Hogan you sure just did a fantastic job dismissing Piper there CSL
lol if you say so buddy
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:59 AM   #58
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I get the impression that you don't get just how integral a good heel is
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:33 AM   #59
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The revisionist history is pretty ridiculous in here but I guess that's to be expected.

But anyway it's pretty clear why we're doing it. Hogan is a tremendously horrendous dog shit excuse for a human being. He is, there's no denying it. So we want to downplay his accomplishments and take away any credit he gets for his time in the business. That's fine. So let's do that. Instead of pretendingg Hogan wasn't important and that his role could've been duplicated by anybody, let's acknowledge that he was great, but his continuing quest to be the biggest asshole on the planet ruins his legacy and we don't want anything to do with him.

See how easy that is? And we don't have to lie or delude ourselves with fake facts and silly opinions. Go team!
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:36 AM   #60
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My opinion was, it was all McMahon but he needed someone to push as the mega-face and Hogan was him.

Basically, you take John Cena back to the 80's he would be as well.

Perhaps that's what Vince is trying to do with Cena since it worked once.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:05 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Emily View Post
I get the impression that you don't get just how integral a good heel is
Your impression isn't a very well-sighted one.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:11 AM   #62
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hogan helped WWF get on top by killing WCW.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:28 AM   #63
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Your impression isn't a very well-sighted one.
You're4 claiming Piper is easily replaceable. Says a lot.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:35 AM   #64
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I'm pretty sure he was just responding to someone who said Piper was not replaceable and Hogan was. That could just be me though. I am a reader.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:45 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Lara Emily View Post
You're4 claiming Piper is easily replaceable. Says a lot.
No. I claimed in that specific spot at that specific time he was probably replaceable. I'm not dismissing him as anything. Piper is the fucking man. But Hogan was so over, with such a massive combined mainstream media and wrestling machine behind him and at the exact right time that any good heel would have got by in that role. Making people pay to want to see you get your 'comeuppance', to see the face get revenge or overcome the odds etc is very important for the most part. And they couldn't have asked for a better guy than Piper to fill that spot. But in this instance, he was probably replaceable, definitely more so than Hogan. Had Piper had that heel run later in his career, he'd probably have been a lot more integral to whatever potential success came from that. But this was pretty much the birth of sports entertainment, the product that has been pro wrestling for nearly 30 years. And the fact is, Hulk Hogan is more integral to that than any other performer ever. Definitely more so than Roddy Piper.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:48 AM   #66
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I should probably start refreshing the page hitting reply, Supreme could have saved my fingers some work with a sentence
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:51 AM   #67
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yours was better though
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:55 AM   #68
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Quote:
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Hogan gets credit because he was the one who put people in seats. An idea isn't anything. You can play the what if game all day but it's irrelevant how well someone else would have done because Hogan did do it.
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The revisionist history is pretty ridiculous in here but I guess that's to be expected.

But anyway it's pretty clear why we're doing it. Hogan is a tremendously horrendous dog shit excuse for a human being. He is, there's no denying it. So we want to downplay his accomplishments and take away any credit he gets for his time in the business. That's fine. So let's do that. Instead of pretendingg Hogan wasn't important and that his role could've been duplicated by anybody, let's acknowledge that he was great, but his continuing quest to be the biggest asshole on the planet ruins his legacy and we don't want anything to do with him.

See how easy that is? And we don't have to lie or delude ourselves with fake facts and silly opinions. Go team!
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My opinion was, it was all McMahon but he needed someone to push as the mega-face and Hogan was him.

Basically, you take John Cena back to the 80's he would be as well.

Perhaps that's what Vince is trying to do with Cena since it worked once.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:04 AM   #69
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I don't understand. Are you agreeing with all three of those?
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:04 AM   #70
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hypotheticals are pointless. don't see the reason for this discussion. it WAS hogan, and WASN'T anybody else. that's why hogan gets the credit. because HE was the man on top bringing in the money, regardless of what other factors were involved. sure, it could have been macho man, but it wasn't. so who cares? supreme summed it up well.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:14 AM   #71
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I'd settle with the idea that it was a perfect mix, the right face, the right heel, the right celebs, the right time.

I think people play down Hogan a bit because he gets so much of the credit and Piper and Mr T and Lauper get none.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:52 PM   #72
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I don't understand. Are you agreeing with all three of those?
Kind of.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:03 AM   #73
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Bump.
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:58 AM   #74
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Hogan's face run made the WWF part of pop culture. Hogan's heel run made WCW relevant. Stop hating because OMGZ HIZ WORKRATE SUX. He's probably the best business man in the history of wrestling. When you ask anybody to name a wrestler the first answer they'll give is Hogan.
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Old 03-17-2011, 12:17 PM   #75
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The IWC is hilarious. All they do is rip on main eventers and fellate mid carders. Say what you want about Hogan. Any criticism you can throw, I can answer with the following: He's Hulk Hogan. Would Hogan have been as popular without Vince's superman push? Probably not. But he would have done alright. He was already a movie star with Rocky 3 and a main eventer in the AWA before Vince pushed him to the moon. Hogan bled charisma and was a larger-than-life phenomenon. His name alone has drawn money for the past 25 years. Sure every match ending was the same, he was a sneaky backstage politician, has overstayed his welcome, and my dead grandmother could do a better leg drop. But Hulk Hogan equals wrestling, plain and simple.
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Old 03-17-2011, 12:27 PM   #76
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When you ask anybody to name a wrestler the first answer they'll give is Hogan.
In the early 90's sure, but nowadays I bet a lot of people would say either Flair, Rock, Austin, Angle, Cena, or Orton too.

They are pretty well known in the UK anyway.

I agree that Hogan helped take the wrestling business to the world stage, but Rock/Austin and the attitude era (and all the midcarders that implies) propelled it to the hyper level it was at in it prime.
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Old 03-17-2011, 01:59 PM   #77
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Wrestling was never more mainstream and bigger than it was during Hogan's era
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Old 03-17-2011, 04:12 PM   #78
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I can't believe anyone would even try to equate the fame of Orton to Hogan.

The rest of them aside from Rock and Austin are even a stretch, with due credit to the fame of Flair and Cena.

Angle and Orton have no business being that high on a list of culturally recognizable wrestlers.
Especially since you didn't include Andre The Giant, Savage, Undertaker and Ultimate Warrior.
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Old 03-17-2011, 05:25 PM   #79
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Quote:
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Hogan's face run made the WWF part of pop culture. Hogan's heel run made WCW relevant. Stop hating because OMGZ HIZ WORKRATE SUX. He's probably the best business man in the history of wrestling. When you ask anybody to name a wrestler the first answer they'll give is Hogan.
No shit, just asked three people to name a wrestler.

Rock, Rock and Austin
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Old 03-17-2011, 05:28 PM   #80
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Oh well in that case, argument over. Indisputable proof and evidence right there lads.
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