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Old 12-17-2011, 01:43 PM   #41
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I think he has a good point. You look at past champions (John Cena, Batista, Big Show, Undertaker, HHH, Austin, ect.) and they looked like they could have kicked the shit out of anyone. I've said this before, CM Punk has a mouth that can yap and yap, but when you look at the guy compared to the guys he is talking down too, this includes Vince, you think to yourself, why doesn't he just get up and slap the shit out of Punk?

However, the same can't be said about Miz, because he resorted to "cheating" so buying him as a legit contender wasn't far fetched. However with Punk, it is.

Same with Daniel Brian, the guy looks like a bum on the side of the street compared to Henry.
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Old 12-17-2011, 02:26 PM   #42
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I think he's got a point, it's just that coming from BATISTA, who is on the same boat alongside Miz and the rest of the new guys (in that he had it "easy", didn't have to fight and claw his way to the top, etc), then you kinda go like "There's the pot calling the kettle black".
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Old 12-17-2011, 02:52 PM   #43
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I think he has a good point. You look at past champions (John Cena, Batista, Big Show, Undertaker, HHH, Austin, ect.) and they looked like they could have kicked the shit out of anyone. I've said this before, CM Punk has a mouth that can yap and yap, but when you look at the guy compared to the guys he is talking down too, this includes Vince, you think to yourself, why doesn't he just get up and slap the shit out of Punk?

However, the same can't be said about Miz, because he resorted to "cheating" so buying him as a legit contender wasn't far fetched. However with Punk, it is.

Same with Daniel Brian, the guy looks like a bum on the side of the street compared to Henry.
There are ways to get by other than a simple look though. Check the Santino video I posted for example. Daniel Bryan's got his submission expert and wrestling skills to lean on.

Look at Chris Jericho and Bill Goldberg side by side. Goldberg would beat the fuck out of him, right? ...
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:06 PM   #44
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Look is important but perception is more important.

You can even apply this to a shoot. Look at Frank Mir. If you saw him on the street and didn't know who he is, you're not going to automatically assume he could kick your ass. But if you've seen any of his fights you'd know he'd kick your ass in a heartbeat.

I just chose Frank Mir because he's the first one that popped into my head, but this works with a lot of MMA guys. Not all of them are Brock Lesnars and yet they could snap someone like Batista in half.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:36 PM   #45
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And why can't the same rules be applied to wrestling? It's not legitimate competition so all that can be done is for someone to play the character of someone who can snap someone in half.
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:25 PM   #46
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Did you think he was?
He could have been one of the "guests".
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:30 PM   #47
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And why can't the same rules be applied to wrestling? It's not legitimate competition so all that can be done is for someone to play the character of someone who can snap someone in half.
It can be, has been and has relied on it at times. It's just that, currently, the product in WWE relies much more on look and not perception.
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:07 PM   #48
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I'd say it relies on neither at the moment actually. More specifically on Raw where the character development is shit.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:28 PM   #49
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No writing can make a boring entertainer entertaining. D.B. could be given the biggest push of his life, well he sort of is now isn't he, and he will still be boring. I don't think they have the talent to be entertaining. Which touches on something else Batista said, none of these guys will ever be as big as Rock, HHH, Austin, ect.. because they don't have the charisma
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:38 PM   #50
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Daniel Bryan will never be a viable top star who could carry WWE in the same vein that someone like Austin, Hogan or Cena has. He will never be as big as someone like Shawn Michaels. But that doesn't mean he isn't an asset and could be used to his strengths instead of shoehorning him into something he isn't. And Bryan isn't lacking charisma, especially in-ring charisma. He's just held back.

Would you say that Rob Van Dam doesn't have charisma? That fucker was ridiculously charismatic in ECW. But when he came to WWE, his nuts were completely cut off promo-wise. He was over huge, though, because of what he did in the ring and his "cool factor". Bryan doesn't have the time to pull off even something like Van Dam did (and granted, his style does demand a bit more time), and rarely gets to shine in the ring. But when he shines, it shows.

WWE, to an extent, does manufacture guys to fail, whether it's their intention or not. When anyone is given a gimmick where the head commentator shits on him, completely overshadows his matches and is a complete dork, of course that's a set up for failure.

Where's the harm of giving Bryan a "gimmick" where he puts on a good 5-10 minute match every week, elevating others while still elevating himself? The harm is that it doesn't fit into WWE's plan, despite the fact that even something as simple as that would help the product overall and would only take up one segment a week.
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Old 12-17-2011, 07:42 PM   #51
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Daniel Bryan will never be a viable top star who could carry WWE in the same vein that someone like Austin, Hogan or Cena has. He will never be as big as someone like Shawn Michaels. But that doesn't mean he isn't an asset and could be used to his strengths instead of shoehorning him into something he isn't. And Bryan isn't lacking charisma, especially in-ring charisma. He's just held back.

Would you say that Rob Van Dam doesn't have charisma? That fucker was ridiculously charismatic in ECW. But when he came to WWE, his nuts were completely cut off promo-wise. He was over huge, though, because of what he did in the ring and his "cool factor". Bryan doesn't have the time to pull off even something like Van Dam did (and granted, his style does demand a bit more time), and rarely gets to shine in the ring. But when he shines, it shows.

WWE, to an extent, does manufacture guys to fail, whether it's their intention or not. When anyone is given a gimmick where the head commentator shits on him, completely overshadows his matches and is a complete dork, of course that's a set up for failure.

Where's the harm of giving Bryan a "gimmick" where he puts on a good 5-10 minute match every week, elevating others while still elevating himself? The harm is that it doesn't fit into WWE's plan, despite the fact that even something as simple as that would help the product overall and would only take up one segment a week.
I think we need to give it time. WWE is certainly having plans for Daniel Bryan, hence him winning the MITB. Cole calling him a dork actually serves to better him imo, since Cole is a heel that isnt suppose to be taken seriously. When Miz debuted, JBL crapped on him ALL THE TIME and Miz still turned into a huge star.

Give it time. I'm pretty confident Bryan will main event eventually.
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:34 PM   #52
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It can be, has been and has relied on it at times. It's just that, currently, the product in WWE relies much more on look and not perception.
Agree there. One thing the WWE did to make the "little" guys get over perceptually that they don't do as much today was highlight on commentary, vignettes and interviews attributes that gave them an advantage over bigger opponents. Bret was the best technical wrestler in the business (Excellence in Execution) and they made sure you knew it on the broadcast. Shawn was the charismatic athlete with heart (The Showstopper) and they made sure that was on display. J.R. always reminded people about the "educated feet" of RVD. Eddie had the whole "lie,cheat, steal" thing going for him. Even early on in CM Punk's WWE tenure there was always some mention of his "muay thai."

Most of the younger guys aren't really given those niche attributes that they can use to compensate for a lack of physical presence.
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Old 12-17-2011, 11:55 PM   #53
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No writing can make a boring entertainer entertaining
Hmm. I don't think that's true.

For example, there was a span before WrestleMania XX where I found Benoit entertaining based simply on his journey to the world title. And I always found Benoit boring as fuck. I give his entertainment abilities no credit whatsoever.
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:47 AM   #54
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No writing can make a boring entertainer entertaining.

Bret Hart is not an entertaining or interesting person in real life, yet he was actually entertaining there for a while.
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:56 AM   #55
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I would hardy call shoot interviews "real life"
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:58 AM   #56
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I would hardy call shoot interviews "real life"
I'm not talking about this interview, just him in general. He's not an entertaining guy. He seems pretty boring.

I guess I got this view on him after watching "Wrestling with Shadows".
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:59 AM   #57
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Well whenever I sit down and have coffee with him, I'll let you know for sure.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:00 AM   #58
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Well whenever I sit down and have coffee with him, I'll let you know for sure.
Ok, Juan.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:06 AM   #59
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To be fair, Bret Hart is a pretty boring entertainer.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:07 AM   #60
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Yet his character was entertaining back in '97. Another good example.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:10 AM   #61
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Yet his character was entertaining back in '97. Another good example.
Yep. Good writing can take a boring performer and make him a World Champion. A Hall of Famer.

Granted, he had the actual wrestling ability.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:15 AM   #62
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Well, in his case his wrestling ability made him a World Champion and a Hall of Famer.

I don't know that writing can make a boring character into a hall of famer alone. My only point was a boring entertainer can be made entertaining by writing. Obviously there's a limit to how far they can go leaning just on how well their character is written.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:16 AM   #63
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On the flip side, shitty booking can make a great entertainer bad. Nick Dinsmore could have been more than "that wrestling retard", for example. Not saying he'd be a main eventer or anything, but he could have been something more and had better longevity.

Though, to be fair, there are some that can overcome it. Like Dusty in his WWF run.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:36 AM   #64
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If we're talking about overall booking, I think The Rock was actually booked pretty terribly throughout most of his career. He talked shit and repeatedly lost as a face. Couldn't back it up. To the point where it was bizarre to think of how many titles he was winning while jobbing to anyone and everyone. They really overkilled the whole "Let's have the big time face lose for shock value" on him.

But... he's The Rock. So in the end, he was over anyway.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:07 AM   #65
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Just for a quick debate, what is PG missing than the attitude days had?

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking stiffer more 'realistic' matches, blading, blatantly objectifying the divas as sex objects, what am I missing?

Guys that can get over with the PG restrictions such as CM Punk pretty much stop me from caring too much about what rating the show has.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:12 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Tommy Gunn View Post
Just for a quick debate, what is PG missing than the attitude days had?

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking stiffer more 'realistic' matches, blading, blatantly objectifying the divas as sex objects, what am I missing?

Guys that can get over with the PG restrictions such as CM Punk pretty much stop me from caring too much about what rating the show has.
That's pretty much it, along with more frequent swearing. And really, I don't think that stiffer matches fall under PG, it's more WWE wanting to protect their wrestlers.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:44 AM   #67
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Just for a quick debate, what is PG missing than the attitude days had?
Fans.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:49 AM   #68
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Honestly, I don't miss the blading, the tardcore crap, the stiffer wrestling, etc.

I just can't get behind any of the guys they're pushing to the top. This is an era of mediocrity, far as I'm concerned. That's not a problem with them being PG, though.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:55 AM   #69
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You don't like any of Rhodes, Ziggler, Barrett, Ryder, etc?

I think the upper midcard is stacked right now and probably the best it's been in years. It's kinda exciting to see which guys are breaking through.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:10 AM   #70
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WWE has had this issue long before the PG Era. What about that whole era between the Attitude days and the PG days? When did PG even start like 2009? I remember people complaining just as much in 2005 when Batista was on top. His long reign side by side with Cena's was shit on constantly.

He's right about Miz. I think he's great but the way he is packaged is hurting him. He isn't very intimidating and he is corny as fuck sometimes. But they have some up and coming guys who have "the look". Ziggler, Del Rio, Sheamus and Barrett for example. They all look like heavyweights and intimidating. Then you have guys like Punk and Bryan who are intimidating in a Angle or Benoit way - small but excellent fighters. Guys like Miz, Ryder and Rhodes are in the same boat as Jericho but like him will get over for their mic work.

The future stars for the WWE right now is the best it has been since the early 2000s. If they loosen up a bit and write better shit (they proved they can with the Punk/Cena rivalry and the HHH conspiracy storyline a few months ago) then the quality of the product and fanbase should increase. And if it doesn't then you can't really blame WWE.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:30 AM   #71
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You don't like any of Rhodes, Ziggler, Barrett, Ryder, etc?

I think the upper midcard is stacked right now and probably the best it's been in years. It's kinda exciting to see which guys are breaking through.
No one has really shown they can carry the company. Cena was forced into the role way too quickly and got met with resentment. The concept of long term character development is dead.

Most of the upper midcard will end up as main eventers by default because WWE is now having to scramble to build stars after years of dicking around and half-assing developing new stars. The upper midcard is fine right now. But it's just that. The upper midcard. None of them are main event ready.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:38 AM   #72
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Ziggler can. Niggas gonna have PPV's named after him. WWE Presents: Zig Zag - October 2014.
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:51 AM   #73
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Cena wasn't pushed into stardom. He was given the ball and ran with it. It didn't happen over night, and he was bumped from his first WM. When he beat Big Show for the US title it was after a good build, and he was built over the next 12 months till he won the big strap. In between he got over big time on his own. I think people forget this a lot.

It wasn't until a couple of years later when he started winning all the time people started to resent him.
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:51 AM   #74
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That was meant to be a quote to #1WWEFAN btw
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:58 AM   #75
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nvm misread

also its weird how Cena was wrestling for the WWE Title against Lesnar as far back as Backlash 2003.
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:30 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
You don't like any of Rhodes, Ziggler, Barrett, Ryder, etc?

I think the upper midcard is stacked right now and probably the best it's been in years. It's kinda exciting to see which guys are breaking through.
Meh, Meh, not bad, please die in a fire respectively.

The upper midcard is "stacked" with guys who would be doing dark matches a decade ago, and it's hard to care. We're not even talking the peak of the Attitude Era anymore.

I do like Barrett, I admit. Getting behind him at the top is another story.

Well, getting behind him at the top as a major mover. I have trouble believing Stevie Richards couldn't be a main eventer in the current environment. Just feels like the bar has been lowered. A lot.
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:31 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazz Dan View Post
Cena wasn't pushed into stardom. He was given the ball and ran with it. It didn't happen over night, and he was bumped from his first WM. When he beat Big Show for the US title it was after a good build, and he was built over the next 12 months till he won the big strap. In between he got over big time on his own. I think people forget this a lot.

It wasn't until a couple of years later when he started winning all the time people started to resent him.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:14 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazz Dan View Post
Cena wasn't pushed into stardom. He was given the ball and ran with it. It didn't happen over night, and he was bumped from his first WM. When he beat Big Show for the US title it was after a good build, and he was built over the next 12 months till he won the big strap. In between he got over big time on his own. I think people forget this a lot.

It wasn't until a couple of years later when he started winning all the time people started to resent him.
I didn't say he was pushed into stardom too quickly. I said he was pushed into the role of carrying the company too quickly.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:19 PM   #79
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I feel like WWE is trying to find someone RIGHT NOW to main event in a month or so and that shouldn't be the case. Someone like Cena now should be there so someone like Sheamus for example doesn't need to jump up there and be THE company. There's definitely something wrong with things when people are calling for Wade fucking Barrett to be world champion right now. The guy's not bad. But he's been in the company for A YEAR AND A HALF. And it's not like he's taken wrestling by storm.
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:04 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I feel like WWE is trying to find someone RIGHT NOW to main event in a month or so and that shouldn't be the case. Someone like Cena now should be there so someone like Sheamus for example doesn't need to jump up there and be THE company. There's definitely something wrong with things when people are calling for Wade fucking Barrett to be world champion right now. The guy's not bad. But he's been in the company for A YEAR AND A HALF. And it's not like he's taken wrestling by storm.
Yeah, I like Barrett, but that he's at the top of the pile (or near enough to count) is really underwhelming.
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