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Old 04-09-2013, 05:29 AM   #1
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Originally Posted by Gertner View Post
Those crowds come up 2-3 times a year.
Yeah, the crowds filled with fans willing to pay thousands of dollars to go to WrestleMania and not just $75 to take little Johnny to a SmackDown! taping.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:27 AM   #2
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Also, the MMA fad has maxed out. UFC stretched themselves too thin and they lack enough legitimate draws to do the number of shows they do a year.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:33 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Also, the MMA fad has maxed out. UFC stretched themselves too thin and they lack enough legitimate draws to do the number of shows they do a year.
It doesn't matter though. It still draws a ton of people and those fans aren't coming back unless you appeal to their kids.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:36 AM   #4
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It doesn't matter though. It still draws a ton of people and those fans aren't coming back unless you appeal to their kids.
It is fucking stupid to base your business off of casual fans who only watch and pay 3 months out of the year. You can appeal to them without completely abandoning your core fanbase. It is like pissing off all your close friends just to go to one awesome party with "cool people". You have your one cool night, but then the rest of the year your alone and hated. Why do you think you have to completely sell out to kids to appeal to them. They are a good market to have, but they can't be your only market considering your business is inherently violent and stigmatized.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:41 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
It is fucking stupid to base your business off of casual fans who only watch and pay 3 months out of the year. You can appeal to them without completely abandoning your core fanbase. It is like pissing off all your close friends just to go to one awesome party with "cool people". You have your one cool night, but then the rest of the year your alone and hated.
Core fanbase is interchangable. When I say "casual" I refer to the fan who doesn't post on message boards or scour the net, but still watches every week.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:45 AM   #6
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Core fanbase is interchangable. When I say "casual" I refer to the fan who doesn't post on message boards or scour the net, but still watches every week.
They aren't casual fans then. If they watch every week then they are committed to the product. If you go out of your way to watch CSI every week, are you just a casual fan of CSI or are you a serious fan of CSI? Casual fans are like the guys who pop up during WrestleMania or when WWE gets in the news and they go "Oh yeah...I forgot about 'rasslin." or simply watch it when they have nothing better to do.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:39 AM   #7
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When you say "kids" what age range, because 8-14 made up a small fraction of that fanbase, which happens to be their target fanbase now.

Ticket prices were also different in Hogans day and Hogan basically wrestled on close circuit. Hogan is also more popular than Austin and it's not close.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:40 AM   #8
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When you say "kids" what age range, because 8-14 made up a small fraction of that fanbase, which happens to be their target fanbase now.

Ticket prices were also different in Hogans day and Hogan basically wrestled on close circuit. Hogan is also more popular than Austin and it's not close.
During their peaks as #1 babyface, Austin sold more merch and tickets. Hogan is probably more popular because he had twice as long of a career and went out of his way to do reality shows, movies, be in a high profile divorce, sex tape, etc.

Also, Hogan can't be too popular because he hasn't done shit for TNA in terms of ratings. I imagine Stone Cold Steve Austin could move the needle.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:43 AM   #9
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During their peaks as #1 babyface, Austin sold more merch and tickets.
Did Austin have a cartoon? Was Austin a pop culture icon? Did Austin sell out the Silverdome? If you ask 100 random people to name a wrestler would Austin's name get mentioned more than Hogan? Hogan is the biggest star in history. Hogan's match with the Rock during Austins stint got a louder response than anything Austin ever did.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:54 AM   #10
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I was a kid during the attitude era. You can appeal to kids and not making the product so fucking watered down and vanilla.
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Did Austin have a cartoon? Was Austin a pop culture icon? Did Austin sell out the Silverdome? If you ask 100 random people to name a wrestler would Austin's name get mentioned more than Hogan? Hogan is the biggest star in history. Hogan's match with the Rock during Austins stint got a louder response than anything Austin ever did.
They would prob say the rock.. All about who is fresh on the mind.. Unless those 100 randoms are all 100 from the impact zone..
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:44 AM   #11
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During their peaks as #1 babyface, Austin sold more merch and tickets. Hogan is probably more popular because he had twice as long of a career and went out of his way to do reality shows, movies, be in a high profile divorce, sex tape, etc.

Also, Hogan can't be too popular because he hasn't done shit for TNA in terms of ratings. I imagine Stone Cold Steve Austin could move the needle.
Nothing could help TNA.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:49 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertner View Post
Did Austin have a cartoon? Was Austin a pop culture icon? Did Austin sell out the Silverdome? If you ask 100 random people to name a wrestler would Austin's name get mentioned more than Hogan? Hogan is the biggest star in history. Hogan's match with the Rock during Austins stint got a louder response than anything Austin ever did.
Hogan wrestled across 3 generations to Austin's 1, so many more people know of Hulk Hogan. Hogan has done a better job of marketing himself after his career. But, it is a fact, based on what Vince McMahon has said, that Austin shattered every box office and merch record Hogan set in the 80s.

Austin made people buy 12 ppvs a year instead of just watching a cartoon. I promise WWE made more money going from 4 ppvs to 12 ppvs under Austin than that cartoon ever made. Austin led the WWE from the abyss and let them start doing stadium shows again, and he sold out the AstroDome. Austin also led WWE to create SmackDown!, HeAT, and increase the demand for syndication.

I'd argue that crowd reaction has nothing to do with tangible monetary drawing power. Remember, you are the one who says CM Punk almost killed the WWE despite getting damn near riot level reactions when he faced Cena.

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Nothing could help TNA.
Touche.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:57 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Hogan wrestled across 3 generations to Austin's 1, so many more people know of Hulk Hogan. Hogan has done a better job of marketing himself after his career. But, it is a fact, based on what Vince McMahon has said, that Austin shattered every box office and merch record Hogan set in the 80s.

Austin made people buy 12 ppvs a year instead of just watching a cartoon. I promise WWE made more money going from 4 ppvs to 12 ppvs under Austin than that cartoon ever made. Austin led the WWE from the abyss and let them start doing stadium shows again, and he sold out the AstroDome. Austin also led WWE to create SmackDown!, HeAT, and increase the demand for syndication.

I'd argue that crowd reaction has nothing to do with tangible monetary drawing power. Remember, you are the one who says CM Punk almost killed the WWE despite getting damn near riot level reactions when he faced Cena.



Touche.
Hogan also turned heel which set off the Monday Night Wars and became the best heel of the 90's, while Austin's heel turn fell flat because it didn't have the same shock value.
During the vast majority of Hogans times ppv was just starting out, so using the ppv's angle isn't really fair, although ppv wouldn't be popular if it weren't for Hogan
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:50 AM   #14
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Jim Ross even said this before" Hulk Hogan is the most recognizable athlete in history" how old are you James?
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:53 AM   #15
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Jim Ross even said this before" Hulk Hogan is the most recognizable athlete in history" how old are you James?
I'm not arguing that. I'm saying Austin's peak was bigger than Hogan's peak. Hogan has managed to turn being a shitty wrestler with a media machine behind him into over 3 decades of self-promotion.

I'm 24. I don't have this romanticized view of Hulk Hogan. I see him for what he is - a shitty wrestler with boatloads of charisma and a brilliant mind for self-promotion aided by massive media machines behind him for 2/3rds of his career.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:59 AM   #16
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I'm not arguing that. I'm saying Austin's peak was bigger than Hogan's peak. Hogan has managed to turn being a shitty wrestler with a media machine behind him into over 3 decades of self-promotion.

I'm 24. I don't have this romanticized view of Hulk Hogan. I see him for what he is - a shitty wrestler with boatloads of charisma and a brilliant mind for self-promotion aided by massive media machines behind him for 2/3rds of his career.
See you weren't around then for Hogan's peak in the 1980's. I'm now in my 30ms and without question Hogan was a bigger household name in the 80's then Austion was in the 90's. It was insane how big he was.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:56 AM   #17
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I just don't understand what is so hard to understand that you can appeal to kids without making your entire product a vanilla superhero cartoon with no depth.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:18 AM   #18
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I just don't understand what is so hard to understand that you can appeal to kids without making your entire product a vanilla superhero cartoon with no depth.
I'll argue that the wrestlers there aren't capable. That's what not having territories does. Wrestlers used to come into the company after working the territories for years. Now the roster is full of green guys who shouldn't be there. The writing isn't awful, but I could do without all the stop-start pushes.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:09 AM   #19
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Popularity doesn't equate to dollars. You want to talk about drawing and making money. If is a fact that Austin made more money for WWF than Hogan did based off of merchandise, live event revenue, ppv revenue, tv revenue, etc.

Also, PPVs wouldn't be around if not for Hogan is a stupid argument. That is like saying Friends wouldn't have been as big of a show if it weren't for I Love Lucy.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:14 AM   #20
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You can't factor ppv revenue because it was just starting out and wrestling was basically syndication when Hogan ran. Also, ticket prices weren't the same and neither was merchandise, so it's not a reasonable comparison. If Austin drew 18,000 at MSG and Hogan drew the same and Austin did it at 1999 and Hogan at 1986 of course Austin drew more money because things were cheaper back then
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:20 AM   #21
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I think it is a combination of mediocre writing and the wrestlers not having the balls to take charge over their character. It isn't Vince's job to make you a star. He provides you the stage to become a star.

Hogan - He did anything and everything to protect his character. Megestar
HBK/Nash/Hall - They raised hell about their booking and they became stars because they made sure their characters were taken care of.
Austin - Raised hell and was protective of his character - Megastar.
Foley - Offered tweaks and changes and led changes from the intial idea of Mankind. Mick Foley became the most beloved and unlikely wrestling hero ever.
CM Punk - Raised hell and became a big star.

It isn't politicking. It's survival. Don't bitch about the bad writing and storylines and Vince holding you down if you don't have anything to offer them. If you dislike it that bad then find another line of work. (Woo Woo Woo, You know it!)

People are afraid to get labeled as a politicking guy or maybe just afraid of getting fired, but if you are truly the star you think you are then you'll get over and Vince will have no choice but to listen to you. Back in the territory days, bookers didn't do shit with your characters. That was you. They just gave you a forum to get your character over and make them money while interacting with other characters.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:24 AM   #22
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Well that's because back in the day if you failed you could go somewhere else. Not the case anymore. In that time promoters just basically threw a mic in a guys face and said "talk", so they actually learned. I truly don't think because of how things are set up that you're ever going to have a roster with depth again.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:29 AM   #23
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Well that's because back in the day if you failed you could go somewhere else. Not the case anymore. In that time promoters just basically threw a mic in a guys face and said "talk", so they actually learned. I truly don't think because of how things are set up that you're ever going to have a roster with depth again.
With Japan dead and the indys being a joke, it will be hard. WWE should let all these guys cut promos at house shows and on SmackDown! where it can be edited out. Sin Cara kinda got fucked over when they just threw him out on RAW without any time to settle into the WWE style. I need to find the Legends Roundtable they did where they talk about all this. JR goes on a rant about "What's a push?!".
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:33 AM   #24
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With Japan dead and the indys being a joke, it will be hard. WWE should let all these guys cut promos at house shows and on SmackDown! where it can be edited out. Sin Cara kinda got fucked over when they just threw him out on RAW without any time to settle into the WWE style. I need to find the Legends Roundtable they did where they talk about all this. JR goes on a rant about "What's a push?!".
House shows would be perfect. If I were creative, I'd let the guys go out there and ad-lib promos in front of the crowd. Sin Cara is fucked from the beginning because he can't speak english. Rey wouldn't have gotten to where he is if he didn't. Sin Cara also didn't really have anybody aside from low level guys that could even wrestle his style
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:36 AM   #25
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House shows would be perfect. If I were creative, I'd let the guys go out there and ad-lib promos in front of the crowd. Sin Cara is fucked from the beginning because he can't speak english. Rey wouldn't have gotten to where he is if he didn't. Sin Cara also didn't really have anybody aside from low level guys that could even wrestle his style
No different than the territory days. Ric Flair probably cut a shitload of promos in front of 100s of people in shitholes before he learned how to cut an awesome promo and got to cut a promo in The Omni at Starrcade.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:39 AM   #26
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No different than the territory days. Ric Flair probably cut a shitload of promos in front of 100s of people in shitholes before he learned how to cut an awesome promo and got to cut a promo in The Omni at Starrcade.
He also had to cut a bunch of promos on camera for each city he was travelling to. He also had the benefit of being surrounded by a bunch of wrestlers who had been around for ages and could cut promos. Also, people got into the business because they loved it and would live off nothing for years and couldn't afford to take a second job as opposed to today.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:26 AM   #27
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Pat Patterson told a story once where he was wrestling in San Fran and had never spoke before and couldn't speak English and the promoter told him out of the blue to go upstairs and cut a three minute promo right now. That would NEVER happen now.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:28 AM   #28
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Pat Patterson told a story once where he was wrestling in San Fran and had never spoke before and couldn't speak English and the promoter told him out of the blue to go upstairs and cut a three minute promo right now. That would NEVER happen now.
Also a lot more money/credibility/etc. to lose now doing that. I'm glad WWE is investing in NXT and the developmental stuff more and making it more about the all around product than just producing good in-ring hands.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:30 AM   #29
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I am too, but guys are still getting called up waaaay too fast. Case in point: Bo Dallas. Also,looking at NXT right now, aside from Bray Wyatt, no talent really jumps out at me, and none of them can speak. Big.E.Langston's promos down there were atrocious.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:31 AM   #30
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I am too, but guys are still getting called up waaaay too fast. Case in point: Bo Dallas. Also,looking at NXT right now, aside from Bray Wyatt, no talent really jumps out at me, and none of them can speak. Big.E.Langston's promos down there were atrocious.
Well fuck, the new NXT isn't even a year old yet. WWE should be smarter than that and know it will take years. Look at all the talent produced in the early 2000s from OVW when they let them develop over 2-3 years.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:34 AM   #31
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Well fuck, the new NXT isn't even a year old yet. WWE should be smarter than that and know it will take years. Look at all the talent produced in the early 2000s from OVW when they let them develop over 2-3 years.
OVW also had Cornette who was doing wonders with that talent. Wasn't aware that OVW was its own company back then. Always thought it was just a farm system.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:33 AM   #32
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I think they need to give the young guys something to actually promo about. A 10 second box-in-box promo about "Grr...I'm going to beat you." isn't going to help anybody learn how to do promos.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:37 AM   #33
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I think they need to give the young guys something to actually promo about. A 10 second box-in-box promo about "Grr...I'm going to beat you." isn't going to help anybody learn how to do promos.
That'd help if they actually had prolonged feuds. It's a tricky situation, because you can't have two guys having a prolonged feud if neither can talk, but on the other hand how are they ever going to have something to talk about if they don't have a prolonged feud.

Lol this is turning into a Legends of Wrestling Round table right here
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:51 AM   #34
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That'd help if they actually had prolonged feuds. It's a tricky situation, because you can't have two guys having a prolonged feud if neither can talk, but on the other hand how are they ever going to have something to talk about if they don't have a prolonged feud.
This is why I liked the concept of ECW in 2007-2009. They put the new guys on there, but it also had veterans. They worked together and developed the talent. NXT is close to that formula, but they really just bring in established guys for a one-off match to sell tickets.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:38 AM   #35
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Fuck, you don't even have to be The Rock or Hogan. Those are once in a lifetime talents on the mic.

Harley Race will never be accused of being The Rock on the stick, but this promo gives me goosebumps. If you have star potential and you can put together coherent thoughts in a way that make people listen to you, you got a shot:
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:41 AM   #36
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Fuck, you don't even have to be The Rock or Hogan. Those are once in a lifetime talents on the mic.

Harley Race will never be accused of being The Rock on the stick, but this promo gives me goosebumps. If you have star potential and you can put together coherent thoughts in a way that make people listen to you, you got a shot:
Harley was a legit bad ass and really talked that way. His promos fit him so well. Plus people thought it was real and really bought into it. Heck, look at Piper. People thought he was a raving lunatic. Can you imagine if Piper with those mic skills were starting out today?
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:44 AM   #37
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Percy Watson is a guy who is entertaining as all hell on the mic and in the ring. Can't figure out what went wrong, because I thought he was going to be a huge star and future champ.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:44 AM   #38
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Fuck, even Benoit could cut a promo:
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:48 AM   #39
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Benoit's promo skills were either under-rated by some or over-rated by others. He was in the middle for me and that's good enough.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:55 AM   #40
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I liked it too. I enjoyed it more when it got away from the old ECW and let guys like Punk and Sheamus find their footing in front of thousands
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