Wake me up when december ends

[The CyNick]

Well I've heard some guys like Vince and Triple H do interviews where they say guys will receive scripts and say "this sucks" but not have any alternative suggestions.

Then you hear talent talk about how everything is so scripted (usually only when they leave), but then I remember watching an interview with Bray where he basically says only he can write for himself. And since Bray's promos are unique, it makes me think most guys just take what is handed to them.

Whereas all the top stars from the late 90s talk about how they would be given something, and massage it to best fit their character.

Put it this way. I feel like Steve Austin had a better handle on who Stone Cold was than a guy like Cesaro does his own character.

[BigCrippyZ]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Well I've heard some guys like Vince and Triple H do interviews where they say guys will receive scripts and say "this sucks" but not have any alternative suggestions. Then you hear talent talk about how everything is so scripted (usually only when they leave), but then I remember watching an interview with Bray where he basically says only he can write for himself. And since Bray's promos are unique, it makes me think most guys just take what is handed to them. Whereas all the top stars from the late 90s talk about how they would be given something, and massage it to best fit their character. Put it this way. I feel like Steve Austin had a better handle on who Stone Cold was than a guy like Cesaro does his own character.

I don't doubt that's true for a lot of the superstars who just want to show up and get a paycheck essentially.

That being said, I think there's also probably quite a few guys who do bring their own ideas to the table but everything has to get approval from Vince. Then, either Vince doesn't like their ideas and shoots them down or changes them so much that they become the shitty product that we see.

On the other hand you could also have a CM Punk scenario where you bring may be bringing him golden ideas but if you're not in the main event, he doesn't care about your story line or character development so he just shoots down your ideas. The result being, whether intentional or not, talent doesn't get to explore or have any freedom creatively to stand out or become bigger stars.

How in the blue hell, exactly, is a guy supposed to grow, develop or step up and "grab the brass ring" in that type of environment?

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ I don't doubt that's true for a lot of the superstars who just want to show up and get a paycheck essentially. That being said, I think there's also probably quite a few guys who do bring their own ideas to the table but everything has to get approval from Vince. Then, either Vince doesn't like their ideas and shoots them down or changes them so much that they become the shitty product that we see. On the other hand you could also have a CM Punk scenario where you bring may be bringing him golden ideas but if you're not in the main event, he doesn't care about your story line or character development so he just shoots down your ideas. The result being, whether intentional or not, talent doesn't get to explore or have any freedom creatively to stand out or become bigger stars. How in the blue hell, exactly, is a guy supposed to grow, develop or step up and "grab the brass ring" in that type of environment?

Yeah but see you're falling into that tap of basically saying Vince doesn't know what is good. He managed to identify the right formula to make tons of stars over his career. The problem is not everyone is good enough to reach the top. He pushed Eddie to the top when nobody thought he would. I don't know how much that character was Vince and how much was Eddie, but he certainly became a larger than life character under Vince's watch.

Punk got to do tons. He was given lots of freedom. He was just a bitch when it was time to step aside for other guys. I think he saw Bryan was gaining steam and didn't like it. So he took his ball and went home so he could pretend to be a real fighter.

I think you're cherry picking stories from guys who are bitter. Why would Vince turn down a million dollar idea? There is this belief among the IWC that Vince hates success, like as though guys are feeding him money angles every night, and he goes "nahhhh let's just do something that is boring and will cost me money". Yet Vince stands to gain or lose more than anyone else in the entire world, so why would he intentionally turn down great ideas?

I'm sure guys have made suggestions that Vince had turned down, but the devil is in the detail. Usually when you hear ex WWE guys talk about angles they suggested, it usually involves them at the top of the card. Maybe Vince no longer sees that guy as a top guy, or maybe he never did. Vince has to make a judgment call on how far he sees a guy going before investing resources in that angle and that star. Heath Slater could come up with a riveting storyline to get him to a Mania main event against Brock Lesnar, but if Vince only sees Heath as a comedy act, why waste time on it?

Is Vince always right? Hell no. Does he have a better track record than anyone else in the world? Yup. So maybe he should get the benefit of the doubt.

[BigCrippyZ]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Yeah but see you're falling into that tap of basically saying Vince doesn't know what is good. He managed to identify the right formula to make tons of stars over his career. The problem is not everyone is good enough to reach the top. He pushed Eddie to the top when nobody thought he would. I don't know how much that character was Vince and how much was Eddie, but he certainly became a larger than life character under Vince's watch. Punk got to do tons. He was given lots of freedom. He was just a bitch when it was time to step aside for other guys. I think he saw Bryan was gaining steam and didn't like it. So he took his ball and went home so he could pretend to be a real fighter. I think you're cherry picking stories from guys who are bitter. Why would Vince turn down a million dollar idea? There is this belief among the IWC that Vince hates success, like as though guys are feeding him money angles every night, and he goes "nahhhh let's just do something that is boring and will cost me money". Yet Vince stands to gain or lose more than anyone else in the entire world, so why would he intentionally turn down great ideas? I'm sure guys have made suggestions that Vince had turned down, but the devil is in the detail. Usually when you hear ex WWE guys talk about angles they suggested, it usually involves them at the top of the card. Maybe Vince no longer sees that guy as a top guy, or maybe he never did. Vince has to make a judgment call on how far he sees a guy going before investing resources in that angle and that star. Heath Slater could come up with a riveting storyline to get him to a Mania main event against Brock Lesnar, but if Vince only sees Heath as a comedy act, why waste time on it? Is Vince always right? Hell no. Does he have a better track record than anyone else in the world? Yup. So maybe he should get the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not saying that everyone can be a huge star or success. I'm not saying that Vince wasn't responsible for making huge stars throughout his career or isn't the most successful promoter. I'm also not saying that Vince would intentionally turn down a great million dollar idea in favor of an idea that may or may not cost him money instead. I don't think anyone here is claiming any of those things.

What I am saying is that he's CURRENTLY either out of touch, complacent, afraid to take risks creatively, or some combination of the above. His past success was great. No one's denying that.

What we are complaining about is his CURRENT ability to make FUTURE stars. Absolutely, some of that is very much out of Vince's control and instead is in the talent's hands (drive, work ethic, talent levels, etc.) With that said, all of the talent or drive in the world are useless if you have someone running the show who is out of touch, complacent or afraid to take chances on talent or ideas.

I've been waiting for 5+ years (closer to 10 years) for things to change, and no, I don't mean going back to strictly Attitude era type material. Where do you draw the line? How long do you give Vince & co. to find and develop that next crop of stars or come up with a consistent set of compelling midcard and main event storylines? I've already given up in terms of watching regularly. No more watching RAWs or PPV events regularly for me until I hear of an awesome and consistent turn around.

[NormanSmiley]

Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ What I am saying is that he's CURRENTLY either out of touch, complacent, afraid to take risks creatively, or some combination of the above. His past success was great. No one's denying that.

why wouldn't he be complacent? there is no competition. and it's not dirtsheet nonsense or rumor or anything to say we have all known vince wants to be entertainment over wrestling and right now his big dreams are coming true. Vince has made wrestling a secondary focus of his entertainment company. we are all dreaming if we think the big focus of the company is to push for a product old school fans, or internet fans really want

[BigCrippyZ]

Originally Posted by NormanSmiley why wouldn't he be complacent? there is no competition. and it's not dirtsheet nonsense or rumor or anything to say we have all known vince wants to be entertainment over wrestling and right now his big dreams are coming true. Vince has made wrestling a secondary focus of his entertainment company. we are all dreaming if we think the big focus of the company is to push for a product old school fans, or internet fans really want

No doubt that he's always wanted it to be entertainment over wrestling. I don't think you can say though, that the Attitude Era was still a "wrestling" show. I think the Attitude era was no doubt an entertainment program with a secondary or maybe even tertiary wrestling element, no differently than today.

My point was that, even if he has no competition, complacency or fear of taking even calculated risks are never good things from a leadership perspective, especially for a company.

And for the record, I have stopped watching. The only thing I've heard about recently that has remotely gotten me intrigued in the current product to check out is the Lesnar/Taker Cell match from this past weekend. Curious to see how violent it really got. Maybe I'll check it out this weekend on the Network. Could care less about any of the other matches or characters though because WWE's given me nothing to be invested in nor a reason to.

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Well I've heard some guys like Vince and Triple H do interviews where they say guys will receive scripts and say "this sucks" but not have any alternative suggestions.

So when Triple H or Vince do an interview supporting what you want to believe, it's gospel.

When Daniel Bryan does one that goes against what you want to believe, it's time to go into damage control and find a way you can still argue a bullshit point.


SHEEEEEEP

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan So when Triple H or Vince do an interview supporting what you want to believe, it's gospel. When Daniel Bryan does one that goes against what you want to believe, it's time to go into damage control and find a way you can still argue a bullshit point. SHEEEEEEP

This was my first thought too.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan So when Triple H or Vince do an interview supporting what you want to believe, it's gospel. When Daniel Bryan does one that goes against what you want to believe, it's time to go into damage control and find a way you can still argue a bullshit point. SHEEEEEEP

HHH and Vince are in charge, they don't need permission to address certain topics.

I don't see how the two comments relate. My statement on Bryan saying that the plans for him changed was that he was towing the company line. The WWE story was that the plans changed through the YES Movement by the fans. Bryan parrots that in interviews.

You gotta check your reading comprehension bud.

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by The CyNick You gotta check your reading comprehension bud.

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan This is basically the point we're at now... CyNick: "Seth Rollins losing to John Cena isn't a bad thing." "No one said it was." CyNick: "LOL explain to me how losing to the face of the company is a bad thing."

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan "Damien Sandow was over and has tons of charisma and should be featured somewhere in the show." "Do you REALLY think he can headline!? Come on!" "..."