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Old 12-07-2007, 10:50 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
I actually enjoyed that promo of Jericho. It made sense, and was far more entertaining than anything I had seen from John Cena.

But no, I do not think that Randy Orton vs. Jeff Hardy would be better at Armageddon. Quite frankly, I could not see myself ever buying a PPV with that as the main event. I think that Chris Jericho needs to be protected here, but off his return, this match makes a lot of sense. If he were working on the undercard, he'd just be losing steam, and then the WWE would end up never putting him in the main event.

I will say, however, that with the Royal Rumble looming, the WWE could have had Jericho beat Umaga, or something, qualify for the Rumble, and then win it to get his title shot. Jericho is just a much more credible choice than Jeff Hardy. Shawn Michaels getting another match against Orton was probably the best choice, but that program was doing nothing for me, either.
You have no long term vision. Also, can you ever respond with less than a paragraph?
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:56 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
You have no long term vision. Also, can you ever respond with less than a paragraph?
Actually, I do have long term vision. I have a plan that the WWE could follow until Summerslam next year. I just don't choose to see your long term vision. Long term vision does not mean a crappy short term vision, either. Randy Orton vs. Jeff Hardy does not scream main event. You'd realistically have to put it on before the World Heavyweight Title Match, which may not be a bad idea. Orton vs. Michaels was the way to go, in my opinion, with Jericho helping Michaels win the Title, to continue his feud with Orton (which can blow off between then and WrestleMania), and HBK can hold the WWE Title until WrestleMania, where Jericho dethrones him.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:00 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
Actually, I do have long term vision. I have a plan that the WWE could follow until Summerslam next year. I just don't choose to see your long term vision. Long term vision does not mean a crappy short term vision, either. Randy Orton vs. Jeff Hardy does not scream main event. You'd realistically have to put it on before the World Heavyweight Title Match, which may not be a bad idea. Orton vs. Michaels was the way to go, in my opinion, with Jericho helping Michaels win the Title, to continue his feud with Orton (which can blow off between then and WrestleMania), and HBK can hold the WWE Title until WrestleMania, where Jericho dethrones him.
I like the idea of HBK as champion, but not the idea that anyone dethornes him. Also, Hardy is the most over guy on Raw, how can't you see him maineventing?
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:06 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
I like the idea of HBK as champion, but not the idea that anyone dethornes him. Also, Hardy is the most over guy on Raw, how can't you see him maineventing?
Jeff Hardy is probably more like fourth most over guy on RAW, isn't he? Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels and Triple H would all be above him. Anyway, Hardy is still the same as he was years ago. Sure, he's improved, but not so much that I want to see him headline a PPV. Not before Matt, who is just as over, and the much better wrestler, does.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:07 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
I like the idea of HBK as champion, but not the idea that anyone dethornes him. Also, Hardy is the most over guy on Raw, how can't you see him maineventing?
I'm also a bit undecided on Jeff.

Yes - he's the most over guy on RAW right now, but do the fans really see him as a credible main-eventer? (or would they seem him as a credible main-event guy?). Would people REALLY be interested in seeing Jeff Hardy main-event Wrestlemania?

I'd like to think yes, but I'm just not sure. A few years ago for instance, the fans got behind Rey Mysterio, but it just didn't pan out. A large part of this reason IMO, is because the fans simply didn't see Mysterio as a credible main-event guy. It's fun getting behind the underdog, but how long can it last? Keep in mind, I haven't watched WWE programming in almost 3 months (I can't here in Seoul....and they're also a month behind in storylines), and so I can't "guage" where Hardy is at, but I just don't know.

I guess a large part of Jeff Hardy's credibility will be established (or destroyed) in his up-coming match with Triple H.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:11 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
I'm also a bit undecided on Jeff.

Yes - he's the most over guy on RAW right now, but do the fans really see him as a credible main-eventer? (or would they seem him as a credible main-event guy?). Would people REALLY be interested in seeing Jeff Hardy main-event Wrestlemania?

I'd like to think yes, but I'm just not sure. A few years ago for instance, the fans got behind Rey Mysterio, but it just didn't pan out. A large part of this reason IMO, is because the fans simply didn't see Mysterio as a credible main-event guy. It's fun getting behind the underdog, but how long can it last? Keep in mind, I haven't watched WWE programming in almost 3 months (I can't here in Seoul....and they're also a month behind in storylines), and so I can't "guage" where Hardy is at, but I just don't know.

I guess a large part of Jeff Hardy's credibility will be established (or destroyed) in his up-coming match with Triple H.
Exactly. Jeff Hardy is still a mid-carder, technically speaking. The guy has not evolved (apart from not relying on falling from high places as much), but there is no way people would really buy him headlining a WrestleMania. Not this year, anyway.

Jeff's in a good place right now, but he needs to stay there for a while. A feud with Triple H will help him.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:11 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
Jeff Hardy is probably more like fourth most over guy on RAW, isn't he? Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels and Triple H would all be above him. Anyway, Hardy is still the same as he was years ago. Sure, he's improved, but not so much that I want to see him headline a PPV. Not before Matt, who is just as over, and the much better wrestler, does.
Jericho isn't over. I hear pops for Hardy. I hear crickets for Jericho.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:16 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Jericho isn't over. I hear pops for Hardy. I hear crickets for Jericho.
That may be true. Jericho has more credibility, though, which does help with fan support. Jericho is just on a different plateau to Jeff Hardy right now. I mean, Jeff Hardy is over for an upper mid-carder, but he doesn't get pops that are Stone Cold big. He gets pops that are Jeff Hardy big.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:20 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
That may be true. Jericho has more credibility, though, which does help with fan support. Jericho is just on a different plateau to Jeff Hardy right now. I mean, Jeff Hardy is over for an upper mid-carder, but he doesn't get pops that are Stone Cold big. He gets pops that are Jeff Hardy big.
No one gets stone cold pops. And right now Jericho is on a smaller crappier plateau than Hardy. I'm not trying to bash Jericho. I'm just saying I've stuck with one arguement, and you keep trying to find one legit reason that Jericho is move over than Jeff right now, and there isn't a reason because Jeff is in a better place with the fans the Jericho. I'm not saying this is entirely Jericho's fault, even if Jericho had been flawless since his return, the return itself was fucked up by WWE.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:21 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
A feud with Triple H will help him.
Definitely. If Triple H does his part and REALLY makes Jeff Hardy look solid/viable, then I DO think that there's a CHANCE (albeit, still a small one) that Jeff could look like a credible main-event come Wrestlemania.

Hopefully - Jeff/Triple H can have a feud which would be similar to Jericho/Rock in late 2001 (or Angle/Austin from mid 2001). Jeff and Triple H, between now and Royal Rumble, have 2 or 3 matches.....all of which are VERY VERY VERY closely contested. Both men get a victory in very very closely contested matches.

Even if Hardy doesn't defeat Triple H, he should still be made to look awesome (i.e. when Benjamin jobbed to HBK a few years ago, he still gained massive credibility due to how close the match was).

So, in summation...

1) If Jeff can be made to look on the same level as Triple H (in not just one, but 2 or 3 different matches)

2) Jeff Hardy defeats some other semi-credible guys cleanly (i.e. Umaga, Khali, Kennedy, etc.)

3) Jeff wins the Royal Rumble

Then yes - perhaps Jeff can look credible as a headliner for Mania'.

I would also consider giving Jeff some newer music (i.e. similar to Cena and Batista before mania' in year's past).
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:27 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
No one gets stone cold pops. And right now Jericho is on a smaller crappier plateau than Hardy. I'm not trying to bash Jericho. I'm just saying I've stuck with one arguement, and you keep trying to find one legit reason that Jericho is move over than Jeff right now, and there isn't a reason because Jeff is in a better place with the fans the Jericho. I'm not saying this is entirely Jericho's fault, even if Jericho had been flawless since his return, the return itself was fucked up by WWE.
Agreed.

Like I alluded to in some other threads, it's all about the fans NOT being told what to do.

Right now - the WWE (and Jericho himself) are practically BEGGING for him to be cheered for.

The fans on the other hand, seem to have NATURALLY taken a liking to Hardy however (what remains to be seen however IMO, is whether the fans can accept Hardy as a ME.....or will this turn out to be Rey Mysterio part deux). Hardy might be getting larger pops than Jericho, but Jericho still has more main-event credibility amongst the fans.

Hopefully - Triple H can help Jeff become established as a ME'er to change that perception.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:27 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
No one gets stone cold pops. And right now Jericho is on a smaller crappier plateau than Hardy. I'm not trying to bash Jericho. I'm just saying I've stuck with one arguement, and you keep trying to find one legit reason that Jericho is move over than Jeff right now, and there isn't a reason because Jeff is in a better place with the fans the Jericho. I'm not saying this is entirely Jericho's fault, even if Jericho had been flawless since his return, the return itself was fucked up by WWE.
I don't think the return was so much fucked up, as the WWE is fucked up. Shawn Michaels doesn't get great pops these days. All that's left are the little kids who are too scared of the loud noises to actively participate in the shows, and wouldn't remember who Jericho is, so they have to get reacquainted to him.

I am trying to make excuses for Jericho, but that is because in my mind, the guy is just so much more credible than Jeff Hardy. He is the a guy the IWC has been begging to return for years. No one would care if Jeff Hardy left (hyperbole). Jericho is a legitimate main event-level guy. Jeff Hardy is, unfortunately, not. The guy is an upper mid-card guy at present. Sure, he gets better pops, but he's been around for the last few months, getting the same pops as he did in 2001, if not smaller.

Jericho has to re-establish himself, whereas Hardy has been in his role for longer. The fans are more comfortable with him there, sure, but looking at their careers, there is no doubt that Jericho is the bigger star, in my opinion.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:32 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
I don't think the return was so much fucked up, as the WWE is fucked up. Shawn Michaels doesn't get great pops these days. All that's left are the little kids who are too scared of the loud noises to actively participate in the shows, and wouldn't remember who Jericho is, so they have to get reacquainted to him.

I am trying to make excuses for Jericho, but that is because in my mind, the guy is just so much more credible than Jeff Hardy. He is the a guy the IWC has been begging to return for years. No one would care if Jeff Hardy left (hyperbole). Jericho is a legitimate main event-level guy. Jeff Hardy is, unfortunately, not. The guy is an upper mid-card guy at present. Sure, he gets better pops, but he's been around for the last few months, getting the same pops as he did in 2001, if not smaller.

Jericho has to re-establish himself, whereas Hardy has been in his role for longer. The fans are more comfortable with him there, sure, but looking at their careers, there is no doubt that Jericho is the bigger star, in my opinion.
IWC isn't the majority of people buying WWE's products. And we have all seen what happens when promoters book to the IWC, a lot of confusing worked shoots that turn real.

I agree, given time and Jericho's past record he will be probably be better than Hardy. But not right now.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:37 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
Sure, he gets better pops, but he's been around for the last few months, getting the same pops as he did in 2001, if not smaller.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't recall Hardy getting the same level of face pops that he is now back in 2001 (or are you referring to 2002 when he feuded with Undertaker, etc.?).

I think the ONE thing that Jeff has going for him (that people like Jericho, Orton, Kane, etc., etc.) do NOT have going for them, is that Jeff's "journey" still hasn't been completed. Yes - guys like Jericho, etc. are far more established, but they also have that "been there, done that" aura amongst the fans. The fans have already seen Jericho win the title. Hardy on the other hand, represents something new.

Like I said - it all depends on how the Triple H/Jeff Hardy thing plays out within the next few months. If Hardy can look credible, then I'd give Hardy the nodd over Jericho. If not - then Jericho should get the nod.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:40 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
That may be true. Jericho has more credibility, though, which does help with fan support. Jericho is just on a different plateau to Jeff Hardy right now. I mean, Jeff Hardy is over for an upper mid-carder, but he doesn't get pops that are Stone Cold big. He gets pops that are Jeff Hardy big.
Fan support's kinda moot when nobody's supporting you.

Also, nobody gets stone cold pops, period. Jeff Hardy big is still big. And it's just about the biggest thing they have, sad as it is to say.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:47 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Maybe it's just me, but I don't recall Hardy getting the same level of face pops that he is now back in 2001 (or are you referring to 2002 when he feuded with Undertaker, etc.?).

I'm betting that if you had gone to an event in 2001 with an SPL meter, Hardy's pops would be the exact same magnitude they are now. Plus or minus a couple of decibels, obviously. But basically, what I'm saying is that he's getting the same pop in a different environment. Basically, the crowds are far more dead, so the pops SEEM bigger.

You know, kinda like every poster looks like they have a big dick compared to Shadow. Even Rhiannon.
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