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Old 09-16-2009, 02:49 AM   #41
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ABT knows.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:25 AM   #42
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Punk should get clean wins over both The Undertaker and Batista. They're both old. Let Punk make his star over them, and then move on to Punk vs. Morrison, or something. Punk should actually be the first person who gets a submission victory over Taker.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:45 AM   #43
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Punk should get clean wins over both The Undertaker and Batista. They're both old. Let Punk make his star over them, and then move on to Punk vs. Morrison, or something. Punk should actually be the first person who gets a submission victory over Taker.
That would be REALLY awesome for both CM Punk and the WWE...atleast from my perspective.

Clean victories over both Taker and Bats would really help establish Punk as the #1 guy of the company.

You know what I think would be cool?

Between now and Wrestlemania, the following happens:

-CM Punk feuds with Taker......kind of evens out. Punks moves on

-CM Punk feuds with Batista. After both men get victories (Punk by cheating, Batista cleanly), they have a tie-breaker match. CM Punk wins this match CLEANLY

-CM Punk gets into another brief feud with Taker....this time, just a one match type deal. CM Punk wins cleanly. After the match, Taker shake hands with Punk. Punk accepts (teasing a face turn), but then does something heelish afterwards.

-At Wrestlemania - John Cena and CM Punk have an interpromotional match (not sure how this would go down but somehow someway, these guys cross paths...maybe Cena wins the RR and challenges Punk?). CM Punk vs. John Cena is the final match on the card. During the match, the fans are clearly behind CM Punk.....and it's in this match that we see a heel/face switch. CM Punk wins cleanly and the fans go nuts. After the match, Cena flips off the fans....indicating a heel turn.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:15 AM   #44
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jeff hardy defeated hhh at a ppv very cleanly which led to his first reign i believe
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Originally Posted by mike adamle View Post
Armageddon '07 led to his title shot against Orton at the '08 Royal Rumble.
http://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/200...y_310950.shtml

http://www.wwe-jeffhardy.com/2008/11...o-qualify.html

After some researching, it appears that both of you are right. Jeff Hardy defeated Triple H, cleanly, at both the Armageddon PPV in 2007 and at a match before Survivor Series in 2008.

HOWEVER........

Both clean victories were achieved with wimpy roll-ups. By contrast, whenever Triple H defeated Jeff Hardy, it was done more convincingly and decisively. And THAT is what I do not like.

If the WWE are genuinely interested in pushing new guys to the top, they have to...

-Allow the up-and-comers to get a non-flukey and decisive victory over the more established guy.

-Do NOT let the established guy get a 'return' victory where the ease of his victory outweighs the up-and-comer (or challenger).


For example - The WWE had Big Show defeat Undertaker cleanly (few times), but then had Undertaker defeat Big Show with more ease...and on more occassions.

Batista defeating Triple H back in 2005 is a PERFECT way to establish a guy as top-tier. THIS is what I would have liked to have seen the WWE do with Jeff Hardy. THIS is what I hope the WWE does with CM Punk.
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:06 AM   #45
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This "noob" just showed me that just because he doesn't have as many posts as some, his wrestling knowledge may surpass theirs.

And i think Juan/ABT said it best in their first posts in this thread.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:13 PM   #46
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:39 PM   #47
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Just think about how everybody was so sure that The Undertaker was going to go over Punk at Breaking Point, and if he wasn't there was going to be a screw job. I'd like to see Punk get to the level where people genuinely feel that a match like that can go either way, and some clean wins would probably help that.
I agree with this, I just think it's too soon at the moment. He just got the clean win to put him in the top tier over Hardy, it's fair for his character at present to be underestimated because of how untested he is against the "big" guys.

I think the character is evolving as it should, and don't doubt the wins will come with time. It suits Punk's character best if he doesn't become a dominator overnight.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:42 PM   #48
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And I should add that I'm a big fan of The Dishu's latest posts. Again, I dig the process, I just feel like we don't want too much too soon.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:58 PM   #49
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You can say it's too soon...but when will it be time? The Undertaker doesn't seem to have too much left in the tank. Neither does Batista. When does Punk get their rub? On their death beds?
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:06 PM   #50
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Taker and Bats aren't going anywhere immediately. Having Punk play the coward role now and get back with clean wins building to WM makes more sense than him pulling a clean win over Taker out of nowhere at HIAC.
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Old 09-18-2009, 04:46 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogadishu View Post
-Triple H over Foley back in 2000......3 times.
-Triple H over Chris Jericho back in 2000 (last man Standing match)
-Dave Batista over Chris Benoit back in late 2004/early 2005 (can't remember the exact date).
-Randy Orton over Chris Benoit 2004.
-Brock Lesnar over The Rock 2002.
-Randy Orton over Rob Van Dam 2004.
-Brock Lesnar over Undertaker in 2002.
Just to pick and pop over this... HHH's victories over Foley and Jericho were in No-DQ-type matches. I agree with you that those don't fall into the category of bad booking. I don't mind the decisive aspect of the thread's title, but the clean part needs to be looked at closely. Is anyone going to say that CM Punk actually squeezing a submission out of Taker the other night would have been a good idea? Now if he manages to get a HIAC win, I won't mind so much (well, I won't mind logistically, we all know my feelings on Punk in general) as long as he can be decisively brutal and match up to the "hell" aspect of it all.

Additionally, Orton's win over Benoit was the start of a face turn. Lesnar's win over the Rock took place while the Rock was on the way out. Lesnar over the Undertaker was a way to cement Brock's status as an unstoppable beast. So again, I don't think those really fall in here. I don't recall Benoit/Batista or Orton/RVD.
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Old 09-18-2009, 09:29 PM   #52
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I don't care if he wins or loses as long as he has a prominent role on the show.
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Old 09-19-2009, 03:33 AM   #53
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At the end of the day it's all obvious shit. It's easy to agree with the topic starter... he's completely one hundred per cent right about this. However, it's going to take CM Punk as a small guy in a big man's world to step up massively, moreso than we could even imagine, to truly speak to the WWE upper brass.

The greats find a way to rise above all of the politics, and hopefully Punk does too. If not, it's another wasted opportunity on a great talent.
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Old 09-19-2009, 04:13 AM   #54
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The heat CM Punk has been getting makes him pretty fucking valuable to the WWE right now. Given that he's also a three or four time former World Champion (depending on whether you include his ECW Title reign in there), I can't see Punk going anywhere anytime soon. The man has got time to get himself really established.
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Old 09-19-2009, 11:19 AM   #55
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I agree, but there's a difference being a Chris Jericho compared to a Shawn Michaels or HHH if you know what I mean.

All 3 guys when heels get/got massive heat, but as far as the pecking order goes you know where they stand.
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Old 09-20-2009, 03:15 AM   #56
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Don't get me wrong, I want to see CM Punk get there, too. I just don't think it needs to happen overnight. If I were booking, I would definitely give him the win against The Undertaker at Hell in a Cell, though. "I told you so..."
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Old 09-20-2009, 07:09 AM   #57
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I agree, but there's a difference being a Chris Jericho compared to a Shawn Michaels or HHH if you know what I mean.

All 3 guys when heels get/got massive heat, but as far as the pecking order goes you know where they stand.

This is such a great point.

There comes a time in a wrestler's career, when he NEEDS that one definitive and decisive victory over a top guy to really establish himself.

Jericho, as great as he is, NEVER reached that upper echelon due to this. Yes, the guy beat Austin and The Rock in one night, but it was done in the flukiest way possible. Jericho is an example of a guy that never decisively and definitively beat a top guy. I'd even go as a far as saying that defeating someone definitively and decisively in a TRIPLE THREAT, doesn't do much as well. Chris Benoit, Rey Mysterio, and Jeff Hardy are examples.

In order to TRULY get someone over.....on a permanent basis, a guy needs a clear-cut one-on-one victory(ies) over a legit top guy. If this does NOT happen, then the title run ultimately becomes just that.....a run.
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Old 09-21-2009, 03:31 AM   #58
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If they face each other outside WrestleMania, I would definitely like to see Jericho defeat The Undertaker. I think that would add a lot to his character.
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Old 09-21-2009, 04:17 AM   #59
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If they face each other outside WrestleMania, I would definitely like to see Jericho defeat The Undertaker. I think that would add a lot to his character.
It would definitely be great, but only if the WWE has a true intention of keeping Jericho at the top.....and having him get more clean victories over top-tier guys (i.e. Batista, Triple H, etc.).

The problem however, is this: Vince does NOT smaller guys. As much as I hate to admit, I highly doubt that the WWE will ever push Jericho beyond the level that he's been pushed at in the past (i.e. an upper card wrestler that gets a world title run every few years.....a run of which that consists of ZERO clean and decisive victories over the biggest names in the company). Because of this, Jericho will be nothing but a transitional champ at best.

I hope that I'm wrong, but I don't see things changing.

Big Show on the other hand, has pinned both Undertaker and John Cena cleanly in recent memory (unfortunately however, both Taker and Cena got their return victories over Big Show in a more convincing manner which ultimately nullified the whole thing).

I think Big Show is a guy that Vince would have no problem pushing under the right circumstance. However - if the WWE go this route, I'd like to see them turn Big Show into the dominating monster that he was back in 1999.......the guy that destroyed Test in 10 seconds, and the guy that threw Austin through the cage.
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:20 AM   #60
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The problem with Big Show, though, is his versatility. I like Show and all, but those sort of guys are draws for obvious reasons -- their size. There's something outlandish about them that, to me, makes it hard to book an entire promotion around them. I mark out for Show when he goes on a rampage and everything, but I don't know how long he could be on top before people got bored, though.

Jericho's character is something that the WWE are pretty dependent on right now. I believe that a large part of the reason he and Edge initially won the Unified WWE Tag Team Championship was to get Jericho back on RAW. He's got a top spot, and I'd actually argue that while he's not the top guy or anything, he no longer looks out of place when put in the same ring as guys like Triple H and Batista.

Didn't Jericho beat Batista fairly cleanly in a Steel Cage Match last year to win the World Heavyweight Title? That sort of thing makes Jericho look like a beast. I'd love to see Jericho get at least one win over John Cena. Maybe even clean, when the WWE goes to Canada next, or something.
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Old 09-21-2009, 06:56 PM   #61
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Didn't Jericho beat Batista fairly cleanly in a Steel Cage Match last year to win the World Heavyweight Title? That sort of thing makes Jericho look like a beast. I'd love to see Jericho get at least one win over John Cena. Maybe even clean, when the WWE goes to Canada next, or something.
My memory is fading, and so I might be wrong.

Jericho did defeat Batista in the Steel Cage match, but I'm pretty sure that Batista was made to look far more dominant (and so Jericho either won by outside interference, or just managed to escape the cage faster despite being dominated). Either way - cleanly or not, Jericho was NOT made to look superior to Batista.

In the weeks leading up to that confrontation, I also recall Batista completely and utterly dominating Jericho in almost every confrontation that they had.
In my opinion, this is just bad booking....and simply helps re-enforce the idea that Jericho is nothing more than a transitional champ. In my opinion, there's a difference between a clean win....and a DECISIVE clean win. Getting a clean win, via roll-up or by some other NON-convincing technique, doesn't do a whole lot in terms of establishing a guy as a true main-eventer.

Also - great points about Big Show. I didn't think of it like that. I guess one advantage of Kane is that he wouldn't be limited to being a 'dominant big man' like Show would.
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Old 09-21-2009, 07:20 PM   #62
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I'd laugh if they put him in a feud with Hornswoggle after his big push ends.
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Old 09-21-2009, 07:54 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogadishu View Post
My memory is fading, and so I might be wrong.

Jericho did defeat Batista in the Steel Cage match, but I'm pretty sure that Batista was made to look far more dominant (and so Jericho either won by outside interference, or just managed to escape the cage faster despite being dominated). Either way - cleanly or not, Jericho was NOT made to look superior to Batista.

In the weeks leading up to that confrontation, I also recall Batista completely and utterly dominating Jericho in almost every confrontation that they had.
In my opinion, this is just bad booking....and simply helps re-enforce the idea that Jericho is nothing more than a transitional champ. In my opinion, there's a difference between a clean win....and a DECISIVE clean win. Getting a clean win, via roll-up or by some other NON-convincing technique, doesn't do a whole lot in terms of establishing a guy as a true main-eventer.

Also - great points about Big Show. I didn't think of it like that. I guess one advantage of Kane is that he wouldn't be limited to being a 'dominant big man' like Show would.
Nah he pwnd Batista pretty good in the cage match.
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Old 09-21-2009, 07:55 PM   #64
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Jeff Hardy was the most over wrestler in the WWE this year bar none. Also, Booker T and Rey Mysterio are top talent. Fuck all this "They have to beat this guy and that guy" to be that credible.
QFT.

Punk is over, he's the main heel on a show with both Jericho and Big Show as guys that could easily step up into the main event picture.

there is nothing wrong with a smarmy heel that gets victories with questionable results. thats how JBL got solidified.

if anything, it makes you want to see punk get his teeth kicked in even more!
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:24 PM   #65
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Nah he pwnd Batista pretty good in the cage match.
It's too bad that the WWE didn't do anything with that. You would think that they would continue to push a talented guy like Jericho after beating one of the top stars cleanly and decisively. Makes no sense. All they ultimately did was undermine Batista instead of making Jericho look like a legit champ.

How did Jericho lose the title anyways? Despite my postings on here, I actually don't watch wrestling a whole lot anymore (haven't watched full-time since 2005). My guess is that he got spanked by Cena.

EDIT - http://www.wwe.com/shows/raw/archive/11032008/

"In spite of the thorough beating Jericho received at the hands of Batista little more than a week before, the first-ever Undisputed Champion managed to once again slip away with a win by way of his underhanded tactics, bludgeoning The Animal with a steel ring wrenched from the cage surrounding them."

I really hate that. So basically, according to the article, Jericho got absolutely shit kicked by Batista a week earlier, and then basically beat Batista in a very flukey way (i.e. managed to once again slip away). See - I don't mind heels resorting to cheating in order to win. What I DO have a problem with however, is when a heel is made to win while also being made to look *way* inferior (as was the case with Jericho).

"This reign would last until the 2008 Survivor Series, where Jericho lost to the returning John Cena." (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_J...BatistaCage-73)

So basically, Jericho then gets spanked by a returning John Cena....which then basically re-enforces the idea that Jericho was nothing more than just a transitional champ.
Last edited by Mogadishu; 09-21-2009 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 09-22-2009, 08:00 AM   #66
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Jericho should not have lost the title when he did to John Cena, I'll agree with that.
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Old 09-22-2009, 05:56 PM   #67
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How did Jericho lose the title anyways? Despite my postings on here, I actually don't watch wrestling a whole lot anymore (haven't watched full-time since 2005). My guess is that he got spanked by Cena.
Pretty much.
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Old 09-23-2009, 05:29 AM   #68
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Your name is Ironballs. I like that.
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