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Old 09-15-2009, 03:50 PM   #1
Mogadishu
 
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Mogadishu does not have that much rep yet (10+)
CM Punk needs clean and decisive victories over atleast 2 of the "Big 5" in the WWE
While I am happy with the push that CM is getting from the WWE, he needs to get clean and decisive victories over atleast 3 of the "Big 5" in the WWE. Who are the Big 5?

-Triple H
-John Cena
-Undertaker
-Batista
-Orton

If the WWE are serious about positioning CM Punk as a top guy in the WWE, and not just some 2nd-tier world champ that is the current the champ of the #2 show, then the WWE needs to make this happen.

Being a world champion is great, but it will ultimately mean nothing unless the WWE allow CM Punk to cleanly and decisively beat atleast 2 or 3 of the Big 5....without having to have CM Punk do a return job. Remember when Triple H beat Foley in 3 consecutive matches back in 2000? The WWE needs to do this with Punk at some point over a few of the Big 5 guys that I listed.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:54 PM   #2
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it's not really his character though. I think his cheating/screwjob finishes where he gets away buy the skin of his teeth are working just fine for now.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:06 PM   #3
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by cleanly do you mean straightedge
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:11 PM   #4
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Edge can be considered a "Big" in WWE as well and since he's probably returning as a face. It would be a good opportunity for him and Punk to feud assuming Punk still has the title by that time.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:14 PM   #5
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He beat Jeff Hardy cleanly in TLC. He was THE man for most of this year, IMO.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:18 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mike adamle View Post
He beat Jeff Hardy cleanly in TLC. He was THE man for most of this year, IMO.
Jeff Hardy is going to be the next Chris Benoit.
Not saying he's going to go all roidy and kill his wife and kid, but he'll be censored out of WWE.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:21 PM   #7
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Mogadishu does not have that much rep yet (10+)
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it's not really his character though. I think his cheating/screwjob finishes where he gets away buy the skin of his teeth are working just fine for now.

This is true, but keep in mind that characters can evolve. In 1999, Triple H also was more of a cowardly heel that needed to cheat most of the time to win. His feud with Foley changed that perception. Kurt Angle is another example of a guy that started off as a cowardly heel, but then eventually morphed into a guy that flat out kicked your ass.

Unfortunately for CM Punk, he's not a very big guy...and so the WWE might not be willing to do this with him.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:22 PM   #8
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Shut the fuck up newb.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:24 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Loose Cannon View Post
it's not really his character though. I think his cheating/screwjob finishes where he gets away buy the skin of his teeth are working just fine for now.

and will continue to work. Orton is doing the same and it works well
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Mogadishu View Post
This is true, but keep in mind that characters can evolve. In 1999, Triple H also was more of a cowardly heel that needed to cheat most of the time to win. His feud with Foley changed that perception. Kurt Angle is another example of a guy that started off as a cowardly heel, but then eventually morphed into a guy that flat out kicked your ass.

Unfortunately for CM Punk, he's not a very big guy...and so the WWE might not be willing to do this with him.
Wow, an entire city in Somalia is posting...
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:29 PM   #11
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He beat Jeff Hardy cleanly in TLC. He was THE man for most of this year, IMO.
I don't quite agree.

Jeff Hardy was another one of those guys that was never really a top guy despite being a multiple world champion. Reason? He never really ever got a clean and decisive victory, one-on-one, over any of "The Big 5." Maybe it's just me, but I think there's a difference between being a World champion, and being a legitimate #1 guy in the company...or on a show. It's the same reason why guys like Jericho, Booker T, Rey Mysterio, and many other world/WWE champions since 2002, have never really reached that upper echelon despite having been world champions.

These guys never beat ANY of "The Big 5"....cleanly and decisively.

Even if these guys managed to get a win over any of the Big 5, it was made to look as flukey as possible. Even a guy like Edge has never really had a big and clean win over someone like Undertaker, Triple H, John Cena, or Batista. Thankfully, Angle and Foley helped Edge out.

CM Punk is quite possibly the biggest ray of light that the WWE has had in years. I hope for their sake, that they don't screw him up.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:33 PM   #12
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Mogadishu does not have that much rep yet (10+)
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and will continue to work. Orton is doing the same and it works well
Orton would have been better off getting clean and decisive victories...maybe with minimal heelish cheating.

Notice how over Orton was at the start of the year? Notice how as soon as he began his feud with Triple H, and became a major chicken shit heel, his momentum started to die off considerably?

It still boggles my mind that Orton didn't go over HHH at Mania'.
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Loose Cannon View Post
it's not really his character though. I think his cheating/screwjob finishes where he gets away buy the skin of his teeth are working just fine for now.
GOD no. I hate this strategy. Yeah, it's typical heel booking but with Punkl, I think his character works better if he's beating people like Hardy cleanyly and then just saying I told you so to piss off the people who wrongly cheer him.
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:17 PM   #14
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GOD no. I hate this strategy. Yeah, it's typical heel booking but with Punkl, I think his character works better if he's beating people like Hardy cleanyly and then just saying I told you so to piss off the people who wrongly cheer him.
OMG, not a strong heel who can back up his shit talking.

Still my original point stands that shut up newb.
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:20 PM   #15
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I'd take Tista out of your big 5 and replace with Edge. Then the only one missing is HBK. Might as well take Cena out and put HBK in because there's no way they'd allow Punky to beat Superman.

As far as the decisive victories I think that's the good thing, he hasn't had them, yet. Meaning he has potential feuds for the next few years, something other world champions lately haven't had.
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:28 PM   #16
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Mogadishu does not have that much rep yet (10+)
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I'd take Tista out of your big 5 and replace with Edge. Then the only one missing is HBK. Might as well take Cena out and put HBK in because there's no way they'd allow Punky to beat Superman.

As far as the decisive victories I think that's the good thing, he hasn't had them, yet. Meaning he has potential feuds for the next few years, something other world champions lately haven't had.

The only reason why I don't have Edge on there, is because he's never really been considered to be the legit #1 guy of the company at any point in his career...even when he was a World/WWE Champion all of those times. A lot of this has to do with the fact that Edge never got a clean and decisive victory over any 'top guys' in the company himself.

Batista on the other hand, was the #1 ,or co#1, guy in the company for a little while there in 2005.....when he cleanly defeated Triple H three consecutive times. Batista has also beaten Cena and Orton CLEANLY.

A victory over Shawn Michaels still has significance, but not quite the significance that it once did. HBK has done a number of jobs in recent years, and so the novelty of defeating HBK isn't quite what it once was.
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:31 PM   #17
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Jeff Hardy beat HHH multiple times.
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:32 PM   #18
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I think my point remains: At some point, a world champion, heel or face, needs some clean and decisive victories over guys that can be considered legitimate #1 guys in the company, so that they themselves can be considered legitimate #1 guys in the company.

In today's wrestling world, simply being a World or WWE champion will not make the fans believe that you are #1. Today's fans are smarter than in yester-year. If you become a World/WWE champ and do NOT get that much needed clean and decisive victory over a legit #1 guy, then you will be seen as nothing more than a transitional champ....and you will soon fall back down to earth once your title reign ends.

This was one of the reasons why guys like Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, Booker T, Big Show, Chris Jericho, and a whole slew of other wrestlers, never really had their pushes materialize into anything significant.
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:34 PM   #19
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Jeff Hardy beat HHH multiple times.
Never cleanly and convincingly in a one-on-one setting. Compare all of Hardy's victories to how Batista and Cena defeated HHH.

The Hurricane defeated The Rock back in the day as well. Was it cleanly and convincingly? Compare that to how Brock Lesnar defeated The Rock at Summerslam 2002.

There is a huge difference.
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:39 PM   #20
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Pretty sure he went over HHH cleanly once or twice.
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:48 PM   #21
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Pretty sure he went over HHH cleanly once or twice.
Maybe. I'll concede my point if that was in fact the case. To the best of my knowledge, the only time Jeff Hardy defeated Triple H cleanly, without any outside interference, etc., was during a triple threat match (I can't remember who the other opponent was.....might have been Edge).

Still - a clean victory in a triple threat still doesn't have anywhere near the same effect.

The only triple threat match I can think of where a guy legitimately went over big time, was when Benoit defeated HHH at Wrestlemania 20 when he made HHH tap out. Even with that however, Benoit was being built up hugely for months leading up to that.
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:21 PM   #22
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I agree with the sentiment that Punk's OK for now. He's really just become a "top guy", despite his brief title runs before. As a heel he can get "screwjob" wins over top guys, while building his reputation just by being in the matches.

Then, when he eventually turns face, it allows him the ability to get over as an underdog again. When he wins those matches against the established guys, he's set.
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:37 PM   #23
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I agree with the sentiment that Punk's OK for now. He's really just become a "top guy", despite his brief title runs before. As a heel he can get "screwjob" wins over top guys, while building his reputation just by being in the matches.

Then, when he eventually turns face, it allows him the ability to get over as an underdog again. When he wins those matches against the established guys, he's set.
I don't mind the screw job wins, as long as they aren't too flagrant....to the point where it's completely obvious that the opposing face would have won the match had it not been for interference.

Your underdog idea is also good, but here's what I'd rather see:

Winning as a heel (cowardly fashion) ---> Winning as a heel (convincing fashion) ----> Eventual face turn ---> Winning as a face (convincing fashion).

This was the path that many of the greats from yester-year took.

The WWE has to be careful with how cowardly they make their wrestlers (heel or face), otherwise they start to lose credibility.
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:50 PM   #24
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I don't quite agree.

Jeff Hardy was another one of those guys that was never really a top guy despite being a multiple world champion. Reason? He never really ever got a clean and decisive victory, one-on-one, over any of "The Big 5." Maybe it's just me, but I think there's a difference between being a World champion, and being a legitimate #1 guy in the company...or on a show. It's the same reason why guys like Jericho, Booker T, Rey Mysterio, and many other world/WWE champions since 2002, have never really reached that upper echelon despite having been world champions.
Jeff Hardy was the most over wrestler in the WWE this year bar none. Also, Booker T and Rey Mysterio are top talent. Fuck all this "They have to beat this guy and that guy" to be that credible.
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:36 PM   #25
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For the love of god, it is not good booking for heels to get clean wins over credible faces.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:13 PM   #26
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CM Punk has not really been a cowardly heel so far during his reign. He has said what he believes, and then he backs it up. He got some big victories over Jeff Hardy, and now he is getting technical submission victories over The Undertaker.

Let's see how Punk goes at Hell in a Cell, shall we? I trust Michael Hayes to know where he is going with CM Punk. With his new character, how well he is playing it, and how well it has caught on, Punk is never going to just disappear from the main event scene. Especially with three World Heavyweight Titles to his name already. That means he has technically won more World Heavyweight Titles than The Undertaker.

Instead of the "Big 5" you listed, I think that a more serious kind of main event ends up winning both the WWE and World Heavyweight Championship. Just look at the men that have done that: Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, The Undertaker, Edge, Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, John Cena and Jeff Hardy.

Whether that is just by chance, or because winning both either suggests longetivity or success on both major brands in the WWE empire -- I think that the guys who have won both the WWE Title and World Heavyweight Title are easily perceived as the biggest stars. Guys like Big Show, Kane, The Great Khali and Rey Mysterio sort of take a backseat to them.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:17 PM   #27
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Oh ffs. He's a heel, he's meant to win like he has been. Everything is as it should be right now.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:25 PM   #28
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jeff hardy defeated hhh at a ppv very cleanly which led to his first reign i believe
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:36 PM   #29
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Armageddon '07 led to his title shot against Orton at the '08 Royal Rumble.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:17 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
GOD no. I hate this strategy. Yeah, it's typical heel booking but with Punkl, I think his character works better if he's beating people like Hardy cleanyly and then just saying I told you so to piss off the people who wrongly cheer him.
God no what? You posted like I suggested that's what they do with him.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:57 PM   #31
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He hasn't really been winning by cheating though. When he has had an "unfair advantage", he's actually had a legit excuse. The Taker thing was interesting, we'll see where it goes but he hasn't so far.

He beat Jeff clean. And when he can't win it cleanly... he just loses (See John Morrison).

I like the thought that he can be in the right and just play off the fact that the fans will just blindly root for the "good guy" despite their ways.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:40 AM   #32
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Fuck you guys are hopeless. Leave the new guy alone. If he had of started a thread saying he liked the way Punk was cheating to win because it was helping his character you would have been saying that he needs clean wins to prove himself.

I agree with the kid. A clean win over the Undertaker and co wouldn't hurt Punk.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:41 AM   #33
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People still pick on noobs?
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:50 AM   #34
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Apparently so. Nothing worse than grown men trying to compete over dick size. "meh"
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:10 AM   #35
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For the love of god, it is not good booking for heels to get clean wins over credible faces.
Excuse me?

-Triple H over Foley back in 2000......3 times.
-Triple H over Chris Jericho back in 2000 (last man Standing match)
-Dave Batista over Chris Benoit back in late 2004/early 2005 (can't remember the exact date).
-Randy Orton over Chris Benoit 2004.
-Brock Lesnar over The Rock 2002.
-Randy Orton over Rob Van Dam 2004.
-Brock Lesnar over Undertaker in 2002.

There are many more examples. What you are saying is simply not true.

In NONE of these cases, were the opposing faces negatively affected to the point where they lost all credibility. The heels on the other hand, benefited greatly from these clean victories. Now obviously, CM Punk isn't big enough physically to start dominating opponents with vicious power bombs, spears, etc., etc. However, I think it would be awesome if CM Punk just flat out beat other wrestlers using pure skill.

Would CM Punk have to win cleanly all the time? Of course not. However - more clean victories definitely would not hurt.

If the WWE keeps allowing Punk to defeat the Undertaker while being shown to be CLEARLY inferior....like their match at Breaking Point where Taker basically made Punk tap out and then only lost because he was too busy staring at Long....then it ultimately does NOTHING for Punk.

John Bradshaw Layfield a few years ago, is a good example. As a heelish champ, he always looked extremely inferior to the likes of Undertaker, etc., and barely scored victories. Ultimately, when his title reign came to an end, most of his crediblity came to a halt as well.

Lastly, in regards to CM Punk, he is legitimately the biggest and best thing to happen to the WWE in a few years. The WWE should make CM Punk look as credible and efficient as possible. If not now, do it eventually.
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:18 AM   #36
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Oh ffs. He's a heel, he's meant to win like he has been. Everything is as it should be right now.
I don't mind CM Punk starting off as a cowardly or semi-cowardly heel that cheats to win. At some point however, I believe that a legitimate #1 heel starts winning matches on a CLEAN and DECISIVE way.....even if they initially start off as semi or fully-cowardly (or cheating_

Examples:

-Yokozuna
-Bret Hart
-Triple H
-Kurt Angle
-Brock Lesnar
-Edge
-Randy Orton

Heck - When The Rock defeated Steve Austin at Wrestlemania 19, it was done very cleanly....even though it was explained a night later that Austin had severe neck problems, etc. And yes, I realize it's a moot point since it was Austin's last match, but still....
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:25 AM   #37
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Jeff Hardy was the most over wrestler in the WWE this year bar none. Also, Booker T and Rey Mysterio are top talent. Fuck all this "They have to beat this guy and that guy" to be that credible.
OK - put it this way.

I agree to a large extent that Jeff Hardy was the most over wrestler in the WWE this year. However, don't you think it would have done MORE for his credibility and overness had he beaten the likes of John Cena, Batista, Undertaker, and Orton?

Maybe it's just me, but I still don't get a sense that the casual fan puts the likes of Hardy, Punk, Booker T, Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, etc., on the same 'level' as Triple H, John Cena, and Undertaker. I think if the WWE really wants to create new top guys in the company, then they literally have to go over the top guys.

To be the man, you've got to beat the man anyone?!?!?

Think about Wrestlemania 14 and the months leading up to it: Yes - Stone Cold Steve Austin was far and away the biggest star in the company, but how great was it for his career to go cleanly over HBK at Wrestlemania that year?

How great was it for Austin to go cleanly over Undertaker at Summerslam that year? See what I mean?
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:01 AM   #38
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I agree that Punk could use some clean wins over some big names. He'll always seem second tier otherwise.
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:03 AM   #39
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Just think about how everybody was so sure that The Undertaker was going to go over Punk at Breaking Point, and if he wasn't there was going to be a screw job. I'd like to see Punk get to the level where people genuinely feel that a match like that can go either way, and some clean wins would probably help that.
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:09 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
Just think about how everybody was so sure that The Undertaker was going to go over Punk at Breaking Point, and if he wasn't there was going to be a screw job. I'd like to see Punk get to the level where people genuinely feel that a match like that can go either way, and some clean wins would probably help that.
Exactly.

It would definitely be in the WWE's best interests to transition Punk from a cowardly and/or highly dependent cheater, to a guy that flat out beats you and/or wins with minimal cheating.

Triple H and Kurt Angle are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.
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