World of Warcraft.

[Nark Order]

I've never known anybody that's gotten their account hacked with an authenticator on it. I'm sure it happens . What I do know is that everybody I've ever known that has gotten their account hacked has gotten their stuff back immediately with a short call to Blizz (Including myself and my brother). Also, they've really cracked down on logins from different IPs and they'll generally make you change your password if you login from another computer now.

Also, as far as customization goes. Have you not read patch notes for transmogrification?

[LoDownM]

I didn't even have to call blizzard when I got hacked before I got my authenticator. Was literally like 2 clicks and by the end of the day I had my account back.

[Requiem]

In Asheron's Call, it took 2 years before the first player hit max level. And another 2 years before it was commonplace. There was just so much content to enjoy in the world, because the content took time and effort to complete. You felt like you achieved something cool when you completed it. It took me 6 months of on and off collecting (all while doing other things still.. I'd just go out and work on it here and there) to collect the pieces for this badass suit of armor that wouldn't drop on death. It didn't have AMAZING stats, but it looked cool, and it was perfect for PvP due to its non-drop status. When I finally completed it, it was one of the biggest feelings of accomplishment of any game I'd ever played. This is what MMOs are about. Delivering unique feelings that most other game genres simply don't do. You've compared WoW's PvP to shooters, but why would I want to PvP in an MMO just to feel the same as when I play those other games? I don't pay a monthly subscription to feel the same as I do in other games.

MMOs have been all about delivering an experience that other games just can't come close to delivering.

In Asheron's Call, they had live events for each story line. GMs would get on special characters and show up in random places in the world. They'd send people on quests, give out unique items, or even have major story-developing battles.

In Everquest for a really long time they had random encounters with GM characters. You could come across a GM in a random location on some special character, and they would actually role-play with you and send you on a quest that they created.

I get that WoW has so many servers that it would be hard to do this now.. but it has more to do with the type of game they've made, because it perpetuates this experience that doesn't really take you into a world so much as a game.

In Everquest, I don't think it is even possible to have

[El Fangel]

I get daily "Final Warning" emails from "Blizzard" about my account being caught hacking, cheating, etc.

I've never checked to see if it's real or not, fact is I don't care.

I spent hours playing that game, Got to level 77 when cap was 80 and never felt like I accomplished anything, ever. It always felt like I had to get new gear to be better and I didn't Id be left behind.

A few meaningless pugs here and there, meh. I joined a few guilds and got booted for not,being active enough.

Always felt to be good I had to spend days playing this game to get decent gear.

Its always about gear, that's why you have twinks in battleground, people using level 19 rares because it gives them the best advantage as they are the best they can be at that level.

That's why I quit playing, I never owned a piece of tier anything gear and realized I never would and because of that I would never be able to reach the endgame.

Like Req said about EVE, you can help people who have been playing for years an hour after you start.

The learning curve is brutal though.

[Requiem]

Really, I think my original point has been made ten-fold. I get that you're not going to dislike WoW because of this. But I really hope that you understand that there is so much more out there. WoW is not the best simply because the most people play it. The most people play it because they made a game which already had a popular IP (I mean, you CAN'T deny that Warcraft was immensely popular before this) which could be picked up by -anyone-, and played on even the most ancient computer. I can't tell you how many people's parents play WoW. Not even gamers.. but just people who can easily grasp its concepts. And that's great and all.. but for the MMO genre on a whole, it doesn't come close to the level of quality available in the past, and in some hard to find places at the moment. It has made developers afraid of trying those old things, because the amount of money it made is all developers see when they start to develop a game.

[El Fangel]

Req, post that learning curve pic.

[El Fangel]

One thing that wow fixed was getting the mount at level 40.

Too much of this game is running point A to B.

[LoDownM]

I find that people who "twink" aren't really that good at pvp at max level, that's why they do that. And guilds have changed too, there are tons of casual guilds these days and with the guild leveling stuff, people rarely get kicked for being inactive, because it's all about leveling the guild up to get the guild perks now.

And with the dungeon finder, you can literally be in raid ready gear in 3 days if that's all you do. It's no longer run the same instance 100 times and that new piece of gear you need never drops, it's do a few instances via the dungeon finder buy a better piece of gear from the justice/valor point vendor. And if people give you shit about your gear, just troll them.

In conclusion, I've said And a lot in this post.

[Requiem]

This was from some years ago.. Second Genesis is a really old expansion. The new player experience has also been drastically improved since then, but it is still a pretty great picture to explain just how different EVE really is.

Oh, speaking of expansions, EVE releases every single expansion for -free-. They release 2 per year currently, and the 2 of them combined probably have the amount of content and fixes that 1 WoW expansion contains. This is not to be confused with patches, which happen regularly to update technical problems and balance issues. It is legit large amounts of new content and massive feature roll-outs.

[Nark Order]

It doesn't fit your idea of an MMO, fine. But it is an MMO and the most successful MMO of all time for a good reason. You seem to have very niche tastes and they aren't going to be able to be met by very many huge developers that are trying to make money. There aren't tons of gamers that want to play for two years just to start the game, it isn't realistic.

You're definitely romanticizing alot of MMOs from the past but none of them were ever as complete as Warcraft. MMOs used to be known as glitchy bug fests before WoW came along and redefined the standards for maintenance and gameplay. Have other games had better ideas or concepts? Probably. Nobody has ever executed in the way that Blizzard did with Wow though.

[Requiem]

CCP (the company that makes EVE) has had some internal issues in the last year, but their development model and business model have been incredibly successful. They are risk takers, which is what the industry needs more of. More companies should be willing to work without pay if it means getting a quality product out. Those are real gamers there, in it for more than the money. (They worked without pay for 6 months in order to release the game, because their publisher went bankrupt and took the publishing rights with them.. so they ALSO had to release solely through digital download for YEARS)

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Narcissus It doesn't fit your idea of an MMO, fine. But it is an MMO and the most successful MMO of all time for a good reason. You seem to have very niche tastes and they aren't going to be able to be met by very many huge developers that are trying to make money. There aren't tons of gamers that want to play for two years just to start the game, it isn't realistic. You're definitely romanticizing alot of MMOs from the past but none of them were ever as complete as Warcraft. MMOs used to be known as glitchy bug fests before WoW came along and redefined the standards for maintenance and gameplay. Have other games had better ideas or concepts? Probably. Nobody has ever executed in the way that Blizzard did with Wow though.

No other company had the money combined with the experience to make a game like Blizzard did. That's the only reason their product was as complete on release. Even now, NO company has released as complete of a product, so many years later. Blizzard certainly has experience. There's no denying they know how to program, and they know how to market. No denying at all. But they also had the money to back it up.

[Requiem]

Need to do some homework, gonna go do that. Really just feel you should open your mind a bit more to the genre on a whole. I already covered why sales don't = quality, and now that combined with the reasons I've given, is a much more complete picture on why I don't feel this game is anywhere near the best. I never once said, as Hasney stated, that they are not the most successful. That would be stupid. They are clearly incredibly successful, and I'm sure they enjoy their billions of dollars.

But the game itself is not a unique experience. Definitely feel like you're ignoring a lot of what I said when you totally dropped certain points and started going on to other parts of what makes WoW good to you, like its charm. You haven't even acknowledged a single feature or concept I've listed, and just respond with "Well WoW did this amazingly. Those games weren't as good as WoW"

No really, go back and read some while I'm gone. That's what you've done. I went through and responded pretty thoroughly to most of what you've said. But you've been on the defensive instead of actually paying attention to the points I'm trying to make.

And to your last post that I read.. you apparently haven't been following what I've been saying either if you think I've implied that it takes years to even begin playing a game. I stated, pretty clearly, that in these other games, you could take part in content with people of all levels. In EVE, if you tried, you could take part in massive group warfare in less than a week. You could be a part of 'high-end' PvP in that little of time. You simply can't do that in WoW.

I also described situations in which max level was NOT THE GOAL. That is my issue with WoW. They made the goal reaching max level. Content such as kill quests and collect X feathers and bring them back, is SHIT content. I don't care what you say. That is terrible, and it is the -main- way to level in that game. Each series of levels takes you to more and more of those kinds of quests. If you were to take into account the amount of content, I guarantee that the majority of it is either to get there, or for people already at the end-game. Because that's where people have been for years.

In old games, there was content the entire way through. Leveling was slow, but that wasn't a problem. It didn't piss people off. The point of these games is the long-term aspect. Think of how many years you have probably played WoW off and on. Or consistently. How many years have you played it? I'm curious, tbh.

You're acting like it takes 2 years to begin enjoying these games, but that's not true at all. The enjoyment should be the entire journey. Just playing the game should be an enjoyment. You're paying a monthly fee to play the game, not just to play the game when you hit max level.

Ok, gotta force myself to stop typing so I can do this assignment.

[El Fangel]

I'm fairly certain that if WoW didn't have the previously established Warcraft fanbase we wouldn't be having this conversation.

From your stance Narc, you are unlikely to change opinion.

However my opinion is that most played =/= best, by that logic Baby by Justin Bieber is the best video on Youtube which I doubt you would argue.

The simplest fact is, Wow is incredibly easy to learn how to play, had an existing fanbase prior to release and that you can reach endgame through constant playing with little skill needed.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Requiem Currently writing a VERY long post. Will probably post it later today or tomorrow if I can get around to it.

Like Steam, Req now offers the option to pre-load posts.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Fallen Angel I'm fairly certain that if WoW didn't have the previously established Warcraft fanbase we wouldn't be having this conversation. From your stance Narc, you are unlikely to change opinion. However my opinion is that most played =/= best, by that logic Baby by Justin Bieber is the best video on Youtube which I doubt you would argue. The simplest fact is, Wow is incredibly easy to learn how to play, had an existing fanbase prior to release and that you can reach endgame through constant playing with little skill needed.

I disagree that the fanbase is what made it a major hit. Yes, the fanbase made up the majority of the early adopters along with MMO fans, I'm sure, but if the game was shit, no fanbase would have gotten it to the size it is today. On the flipside, if Warcraft was an entirely new IP going into WoW, I think the adoption would have been slower, but it still would have taken on a life of its own. You also have to take into account that WoW and the Warcraft strategy series are fairly different genres. It was a nice kick start, but meant little in the long run.

[Requiem]

Also, I didn't even touch on the community. The community is just LOL.

Also Xero, I think you underestimate just how large a following blizzard had before WoW. Starcraft, Warcraft, and Diablo. 3 of the most popular games of their kind, with a dedicated online following. Hell, people still play Diablo 2 to this day online, and Warcraft, and Starcraft.

Also, don't forget that the largest portion of WoW's subscribers are in Asia. (approx 5.5 million) Asia's Starcraft following is -insane-, even to this day.

Just googled, and discovered that to this day, 11 million people still play Diablo 2 and Starcraft over battle.net

Diablo series has sold over 17 million copies.

Starcraft, by 2009, had sold 11 million copies worldwide.

Warcraft 3 sold 4.5 million copies BEFORE it even shipped. Can't find any total of what it eventually sold, but if that's any indication, I'd bet it was a lot. Especially compared to the other 2 games I mentioned, and considering it had 2 games before it.

[El Fangel]

So what you are saying Req, is that there was an enormous amount of people waiting and willing to hand their money over to Blizzard from the start?

Blizzard cant have possssssibly known that right?

[Xero]

Fair enough, but that doesn't take away from the fact that if the game was a piece of shit even the Blizzard hardcores would have left in droves.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, even if the game was completely broken and a piece of shit, it'd still have millions of people playing every day 7 years after release because it's a Blizzard game and the people who play it are blind sheep. It has nothing to do with the quality of any of those games or WoW.

[Requiem]

I'm not saying they created a product that nobody wanted to play. I'm saying that in the grand scheme of this genre, it is an inferior product compared to other MMOs on the market, and the majority of its players are not truly MMO players, because they've never experienced more than WoW. They think WoW is the best thing ever, because they've never known anything else. Narc is a shining example of this. He may have played one or two MMOs in the past but if he's never experienced actual feelings of adrenaline or exhileration from them, then he was definitely playing the wrong ones. (I dont know, I'm assuming he's not actually arguing from the standpoint of WoW being his only game.. in which cause his entire case is laughable and just goes to prove most of what i'm saying)

The problem with this, is that MMO developers look at WoW as some kind of standard for which to design their games because of all the money it earned. And so far, NONE have succeeded. There is already a WoW on the market, and in order to compete with it they need to design games that fill a niche not already taken by WoW. They need to design MMOs that are actually innovative, virtual worlds.

[Requiem]

In fact, from the start, I've been pretty clear on the audience that WoW appealed to..

[RoXer]

Originally Posted by Requiem He may have played one or two MMOs in the past but if he's never experienced actual feelings of adrenaline or exhileration from them, then he was definitely playing the wrong ones.

I wonder how he chose his favorite MMO. Maybe World of Warcraft was his favorite color.

[Requiem]

Your mother is my favorite color.

[Requiem]

Implying that your mother likes to be choked till she's blue in the face.

[The Destroyer]

Originally Posted by Xero I tried Eve Online, it honestly seemed needlessly complicated to me.

Some elements of it are, but I don't really think it's that hard to get to grips with in the long run.

As Req said though, it's not as player friendly a game as some, mainly since it's virtually anything goes, something the community is well aware of. Something keeps sucking me back to it though.

[El Fangel]

Originally Posted by Xero Fair enough, but that doesn't take away from the fact that if the game was a piece of shit even the Blizzard hardcores would have left in droves. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, even if the game was completely broken and a piece of shit, it'd still have millions of people playing every day 7 years after release because it's a Blizzard game and the people who play it are blind sheep. It has nothing to do with the quality of any of those games or WoW.

Its worked for CoD so far.

[Nark Order]

New x-pac announced. People are flipping their shit over this but I think it looks incredible.

[LoDownM]

Until I see more info, I think the talent changes are lame.

[Nark Order]

Like that they went in another direction but the general consensus seems to be negative. Think people really wanted a dark ranger class and thought it was coming.

[LoDownM]

I just don't think it's going to work like they want to, I think raiders are all going to have the same specs and pvpers are all going to have the same specs still.

Also, Demon hunters before Dark Rangers.

[Nark Order]

Hopefully it'll turn it a scenario where having certain moves and talents will be better for certain situations and that it'll be a bit of an equal payoff for whatever route you decide to go. Balancing though is going to be incredibly difficult.

edit- Didn't really explain what I meant. I mean hopefully no combo will be the "this is what you use for PVP" combo. That would defeat the purpose.

[Nark Order]

I do like that they;re giving people a reason to play the game other than dungeons/raids and pvp. Bringing back world bosses, much better daily incentives, etc.